Is a Stereo Integrated Amplifier better choice than an AV Receiver? - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 362 Old 02-26-2016, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Balky & Steve:

We have all been trying to help the OP in this thread but have been harassed by LFEer, who offers no help at all. I will not be baited by him any further here and will continue to ignore his taunts. It is up to you, of course, whether to do the same.
You can tell from my lack of response...

Quite a few come around here to muddle simple things up with their advanced (near non-applicable) knowledge...
They just want us to know that they are deeply versed in all the theories and protocols of electronics and sound, which on one hand is not bad, but on the other hand isn't of much value to someone looking to set up a home stereo...

I have contributed the little I can and already standing on the sideline looking and laughing at all the constant show-off of theoretical knowledge...
I am not intimidated for a second by all the brawl
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post #152 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Long-term testing eliminates bias. .

Exactly the opposite is true. Time reduces the accuracy of memory. In order to compare sounds in a blind test, shorter periods of time make it easier to hear differences. With sighted comparisons, of course, it makes no difference at all since bias ruins any results. It might be useful to determine preference between two products known to sound different, but it is useless for determining if the audible difference exists in the first place.


It fascinates me that audiophiles stubbornly cling to beliefs when the truth is easily available. We have all kinds of experience at your kind of comparison. You have none at all in ours and yet you are certain we are wrong. The long cry of inexperience.
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post #153 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana View Post
...
A-S801/PM8005 have none of these extra features, but are they better amps than an RX-A850/SR6010?

More real watts? Less distortion? Better SQ? Maybe reliability cause of less digital electronics?

Unfortunately i can't find any measurements of Integrated Amplifiers.
You are asking a difficult question. I'm not discounting the value of AV Receivers. I'm simply trying to put them into perspective. AVR are feature packed, but those features aren't free. You are paying for them, and if you have a fixed budget, then that devalues each of the many things you get in an AV Receiver.

As I may have pointed out the key to satisfaction is determining what YOU really like and really need, and focusing on what fills that requirement.

While I certainly see the value of Streaming, given my setup, its proximity, and how I personally use the system, I really don't need streaming at all. Yes, it is nice and if I had it I would probably use it, but it is not in the least a priority for me, so it doesn't play a part in my decision when buying an amp. But it could have value to others.

If you want to scale back, the Yamaha RN602 Network Receiver ($600) has Network Streaming, Bluetooth, DAC, 80w/ch, and other features. Perhaps not in the class with the Yamaha AS801, but you weigh what you want against what you have to spend.

The only thing the Yamaha RN602 does not have is Room EQ. Again, to some that is a deal breaker, and to those like myself, that is insignificant.

There are not a lot of Stereo Network Receivers on the market, but I predict over the next couple years, more will appear on the scene. AVR/Surround does not dominate the market to the extent that may assume it does. Stereo is gaining ground for those serious about music, and trust me, my Stereo does a fantastic job for movies ... all things considered.

If you spend $900 on the Yamaha AS801, and add streaming to it, that adds another (roughly) $500 to the cost. Though there are many, probably the Bluesound Node 2 is a good Hi-Res considerations for Streaming.

http://www.crutchfield.com/brands/Bl...&osp=bluesound

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_813NODE...e-2-White.html

It is all about working out your priorities, and your long and short term goals.

For myself, I would never be without a Stereo system. Ideally I would have both; Stereo in one room, and AV/Surround in the Home Theater. But if (financially) I can only pick one, then I pick Stereo.

Lastly, how much is enough? That is, how much do you really need to be satisfied. Certainly the Marantz SR6010 is fine amp. But it is not the Yamaha AS801 ($900) or the Rotel RA-1570 ($1600) or the Parasound Integrated ($2500).

There is a case to be made for an AV Receiver, especially if you have roughly $1000 to spend. Unfortunately those in that camp seem more interested in telling me I'm wrong than in simply making the counter point for AVR. I can't control them, I can just give you my view.

I'm strongly in the Stereo camp, and I've never been afraid to say it. There are also other members of the forum who are perfectly happy to watch movies in Stereo. So, this is not unheard of.

I can't make the decision for you. But I assure you, despite my case for Stereo, if you choose an AVR, I'll be happy if you are happy. That's the goal, not to get that which is best, but to get that which best serves you.

Steve/bluewizad
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post #154 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
You are asking a difficult question. I'm not discounting the value of AV Receivers. I'm simply trying to put them into perspective. AVR are feature packed, but those features aren't free. You are paying for them, and if you have a fixed budget, then that devalues each of the many things you get in an AV Receiver.

Not so. AV receivers are less expensive to manufacture because of economies of scale.

Quote:
As I may have pointed out the key to satisfaction is determining what YOU really like and really need, and focusing on what fills that requirement.

As long as what YOU really like and personal requirements are covered in a less expensive product then what does it matter?

Quote:
While I certainly see the value of Streaming, given my setup, its proximity, and how I personally use the system, I really don't need streaming at all. Yes, it is nice and if I had it I would probably use it, but it is not in the least a priority for me, so it doesn't play a part in my decision when buying an amp. But it could have value to others.

Didn't you just suggest that the key to satisfaction is determining what the buyer's requirements are and not yours?



Quote:
There is a case to be made for an AV Receiver, especially if you have roughly $1000 to spend. Unfortunately those in that camp seem more interested in telling me I'm wrong than in simply making the counter point for AVR. I can't control them, I can just give you my view.

There is a better case to be made if you have roughly $200 to spend. Low end AV receivers will do everything a stereo integrated can do and much more.
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post #155 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 09:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
AVR/Surround does not dominate the market to the extent that may assume it does.
What stats did you see that from?
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Ideally I would have both; Stereo in one room, and AV/Surround in the Home Theater. But if (financially) I can only pick one, then I pick Stereo.
There certainly can be nice stereo setup in home theater. Audio professionals I know do this. Soundwave is soundwave. It doesn't matter whether it's generated in a room with only a stereo setup or 5.1 setup as long as you know what you are doing with room acoustics.
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post #156 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
You are asking a difficult question. I'm not discounting the value of AV Receivers. I'm simply trying to put them into perspective. AVR are feature packed, but those features aren't free. You are paying for them, and if you have a fixed budget, then that devalues each of the many things you get in an AV Receiver.

As I may have pointed out the key to satisfaction is determining what YOU really like and really need, and focusing on what fills that requirement.

While I certainly see the value of Streaming, given my setup, its proximity, and how I personally use the system, I really don't need streaming at all. Yes, it is nice and if I had it I would probably use it, but it is not in the least a priority for me, so it doesn't play a part in my decision when buying an amp. But it could have value to others.

If you want to scale back, the Yamaha RN602 Network Receiver ($600) has Network Streaming, Bluetooth, DAC, 80w/ch, and other features. Perhaps not in the class with the Yamaha AS801, but you weigh what you want against what you have to spend.

The only thing the Yamaha RN602 does not have is Room EQ. Again, to some that is a deal breaker, and to those like myself, that is insignificant.

There are not a lot of Stereo Network Receivers on the market, but I predict over the next couple years, more will appear on the scene. AVR/Surround does not dominate the market to the extent that may assume it does. Stereo is gaining ground for those serious about music, and trust me, my Stereo does a fantastic job for movies ... all things considered.

If you spend $900 on the Yamaha AS801, and add streaming to it, that adds another (roughly) $500 to the cost. Though there are many, probably the Bluesound Node 2 is a good Hi-Res considerations for Streaming.

http://www.crutchfield.com/brands/Bl...&osp=bluesound

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_813NODE...e-2-White.html

It is all about working out your priorities, and your long and short term goals.

For myself, I would never be without a Stereo system. Ideally I would have both; Stereo in one room, and AV/Surround in the Home Theater. But if (financially) I can only pick one, then I pick Stereo.

Lastly, how much is enough? That is, how much do you really need to be satisfied. Certainly the Marantz SR6010 is fine amp. But it is not the Yamaha AS801 ($900) or the Rotel RA-1570 ($1600) or the Parasound Integrated ($2500).

There is a case to be made for an AV Receiver, especially if you have roughly $1000 to spend. Unfortunately those in that camp seem more interested in telling me I'm wrong than in simply making the counter point for AVR. I can't control them, I can just give you my view.

I'm strongly in the Stereo camp, and I've never been afraid to say it. There are also other members of the forum who are perfectly happy to watch movies in Stereo. So, this is not unheard of.

I can't make the decision for you. But I assure you, despite my case for Stereo, if you choose an AVR, I'll be happy if you are happy. That's the goal, not to get that which is best, but to get that which best serves you.

Steve/bluewizad

Too much above to know where to start. Good attitude btw, versus the poster above you with comments such as: "It fascinates me that audiophiles stubbornly cling to beliefs when the truth is easily available" That is NOT the way to make friends and influence people.

No question that I'm also in the 2 channel stereo camp, not only that, but the analog stereo camp.

I am a little curious about HT so I went out yesterday afternoon and evening to a couple local AV shops. While they do what I think is a good job of the tweets, booms and kabooms of HT, every one of these was a complete mess on conventional stereo for music, especially this misguided crap about a physical center channel for music. I do now understand why it's needed for something like Blu-ray 5.1 because there's a dialog track that's completely missing on 2 channel. For music though, I have a far better 3 dimensional 'center channel' without one, even with the Elacs.

I took my own material for the two channel part, such as Three Blind Mice, Harry James, etc. Stuff that's real music made by real people with real musical instruments in a real space. Tweet tweet boom boom stuff like Infected Shrooms or equivalent was mostly fine, however, that's not what I listen to.
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post #157 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I do now understand why it's needed for something like Blu-ray 5.1 because there's a dialog track that's completely missing on 2 channel.

Not so. If there is no center channel speaker, the processor will send the dialog to the man speakers.
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post #158 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana View Post
It would be interesting to see statistics comparing AVR & Stereo Amps sales.
Do you have any reliable sources?


.....

There is always a possibility for a multichannel setup but not at the moment.
I am talking only for a 2-channel audio system. That`s why i posted here
Possibly Focal Arias 926 will be my next speakers. (2 x 6.5", 92db, 8Ω)
Ι would like to spend ~$1000 for Amp. Room is small and i am not going to listen at high volumes.
Yamaha A-S801 & Marantz PM8005 would be my first choices but i like a lot AVRs extra features
like the network functions (spotify connect, AV controller App etc) and the ability to use room correction (only for 2 channels).
A-S801/PM8005 have none of these extra features, but are they better amps than an RX-A850/SR6010?
More real watts? Less distortion? Better SQ? Maybe reliability cause of less digital electronics?
Unfortunately i can't find any measuraments of Integrated Amplifiers.

You will be perfectly happy with a decent avreceiver.
Amplifier section is equal or even better than a dedicated stereo amp because in 2 channel duty an avr has more cooling and power supply reserve than a stereo power amp with same power spec.
The ability to eq and the option to add a subwoofer in the future will be a real upgrade. If you go with a stereo only amp you will be constraint and chances are that if you hang out on a forum with the typical audiophoolery thrown around you will end up on the endless 'upgrade' path that some of the self proclaimed 'experienced' members have gone through.
It is simply better to save the money and put it where a real benefit can be made.
A $1000 avr will be good value and with any luck you can get a last years higher end avr with a nice discount.
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post #159 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 10:50 AM
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typical audiophoolery thrown around
I like that term; there is certainly some of that clearly evident on AVS but, thankfully, there are also those with a more reasoned approach.

Just because gear is "mass market" does not automatically disqualify it from consideration.

I laughed when a member recently made a blanket statement to the effect that unless you spend at least $1,500 on a turntable you're not really serious about listening to quality music in that analog format.

I was taken aback, for example when my NAD AVR failed, (the digital inputs stopped working and then the analog inputs started to fail), and I replaced it with a much less expensive model from Denon, that I far preferred the overall sound experience when watching movies provided by the Denon and the stereo performance was outstanding as well.

Not a NAD basher as my secondary system is all NAD amplification that has given almost 30 years of solid service.
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post #160 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
Not so. If there is no center channel speaker, the processor will send the dialog to the man speakers.

Perfect, but not what they told me. Or I hugely misunderstood (always possible)


Now to find some "man" speakers and I'll be set
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post #161 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 12:21 PM
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I like that term; there is certainly some of that clearly evident on AVS but, thankfully, there are also those with a more reasoned approach.

Just because gear is "mass market" does not automatically disqualify it from consideration.

I laughed when a member recently made a blanket statement to the effect that unless you spend at least $1,500 on a turntable you're not really serious about listening to quality music in that analog format.

I was taken aback, for example when my NAD AVR failed, (the digital inputs stopped working and then the analog inputs started to fail), and I replaced it with a much less expensive model from Denon, that I far preferred the overall sound experience when watching movies provided by the Denon and the stereo performance was outstanding as well.

Not a NAD basher as my secondary system is all NAD amplification that has given almost 30 years of solid service.

" least $1,500 on a turntable "


Ah shucks, lets do at least $50,000


https://www.google.com/search?q=high...SXC84Q_AUIBygC
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post #162 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 12:21 PM
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Perfect, but not what they told me. Or I hugely misunderstood (always possible)


Now to find some "man" speakers and I'll be set
Hmmm...my understanding is the same as yours.

To listen to movies with two speakers you'd want to set the BluRay player menu to stereo to get everything out of just 2 speakers...even if they are "man" speakers.
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" least $1,500 on a turntable "


Ah shucks, lets do at least $50,000


https://www.google.com/search?q=high...SXC84Q_AUIBygC
I can't get to $50k if I add up the current value of all my audio gear, video gear, motorcyles and cars!

Hell the car I'm driving is probably only worth $1,500; immaculate '94 MX5R.
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Hmmm...my understanding is the same as yours.

To listen to movies with two speakers you'd want to set the BluRay player menu to stereo to get everything out of just 2 speakers...even if they are "man" speakers.

He was trying really hard to sell me a 'center channel' and that's pretty much a deal killer for me. I guess now I don't know what the real story is. One would think that it would still make sense that you listen through two channel.
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post #165 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
" least $1,500 on a turntable "


Ah shucks, lets do at least $50,000


https://www.google.com/search?q=high...SXC84Q_AUIBygC
Heh heh heh heh heh... LO really L...
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I can't get to $50k if I add up the current value of all my audio gear, video gear, motorcyles and cars!

Hell the car I'm driving is probably only worth $1,500; immaculate '94 MX5R.

My grandson just sold his riced up 91 for a lot more than that.
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post #167 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 12:53 PM
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fwiw, just for sh*ts and giggles just a hypothetical question. since this is stereo receiver vs. avr post ,if you could take "your" favorite receiver (the one you know best no matter how much it cost) and have say 4 modest price avr's (just so pure random luck of picking is not more favorable) do you think you could pick your receiver out in a simple blind test. set up being all receivers being exact loud ness at exact seating distance, with all receivers bass and treble settings set at "0" and all other sound enhancing features off all avr's set to 2 ch. mode. with exact same speakers, exact same cd player, exact same cd with exact same wires (speaker and component) in the exact same room only plugging and unplugging speaker wires and component wires from one receiver to another.

i'm so laid back,i'm laid out
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post #168 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 12:59 PM
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fwiw, just for sh*ts and giggles just a hypothetical question. since this is stereo receiver vs. avr post ,if you could take "your" favorite receiver (the one you know best no matter how much it cost) and have say 4 modest price avr's (just so pure random luck of picking is not more favorable) do you think you could pick your receiver out in a simple blind test.

AV receivers are not linear once the room calibration software has been implemented. Most will have a signature sound because of differences in the way the software addresses the room acoustics. If you can completely defeat the equalization then I'm confident you would not be able to tell one from another in a level matched bias controlled comparison.
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AV receivers are not linear once the room calibration software has been implemented. Most will have a signature sound because of differences in the way the software addresses the room acoustics. If you can completely defeat the equalization then I'm confident you would not be able to tell one from another in a level matched bias controlled comparison.
I mentioned that all enhancement features off

i'm so laid back,i'm laid out
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post #170 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 01:06 PM
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AV receivers are not linear once the room calibration software has been implemented. Most will have a signature sound because of differences in the way the software addresses the room acoustics. If you can completely defeat the equalization then I'm confident you would not be able to tell one from another in a level matched bias controlled comparison.

I couldn't last night in that environment of an audio store between some Yamaha ?? 750 AVR and an equivalent Marantz in a noisier environment, unfamiliar speakers, unfamiliar material although he was trying to explain the difference I should be hearing, I couldn't tell. All I could see is a sea of black plastic on the front of both of them, but other than that .....

At home with my room, my material, my speakers, my everything else, but those two receivers and some time I'm more confident that I could.

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post #171 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 01:11 PM
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I think I answered this before. I did two years of bias controlled comparisons with an audiophile society several years ago. The purpose was to determine which audible differences exist in the equipment and which exist in hearing bias. What we learned about amplifiers is that, while some amplifiers distort the sound they amplify, most do not. We also learned that that those that do have measurements that back up what we heard. As an example, one of our test subjects was a high end single ended triode amplifier that measured over 5% harmonic distortion. In bias controlled tests it was distinguishable from the control amplifier by most of the testers. My own Audio Research tube amp, on the other hand, was indistinguishable from the solid state control. Since it was fairly expensive, I put it up for sale the next day in preparation for replacing it with a far less expensive solid state unit. So some tube amps had a signature sound and some were linear. Among solid state home audio amplifiers, we found none that we tested had a signature sound. Does that mean that none have a signature sound. No. But we tested about 20 amps so I can conclude that any solid state units that do have a signature sound are rare. Not worth worrying about.


There were some pro amps that gave themselves away with fan noise but generally they were also linear once we disconnected the fans.


Armed with that knowledge I have never done a comparison of solid state amplifiers since. And I have never felt it meaningful to do a bias controlled comparison before buying an amplifier. I have always bought high fidelity solid state amplifiers with the confidence that there was no need to do listening tests. So to answer your question I practiced what I preach and haven't had to practice it again since.


The message is clear. I'm afraid you are shooting the messenger.
Very impressive.

Pretty much what I always surmised.

My dad was a McIntosh man till the bitter end.

Still remember as a wee lad going with him so he could test his tubes in some kind of machine at the HiFi store in Cali Colombia in the late 50's.

Thought the glowing tubes were mesmerizing.
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post #172 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 01:18 PM
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Very impressive.

Pretty much what I always surmised.

My dad was a McIntosh man till the bitter end.

Still remember as a wee lad going with him so he could test his tubes in some kind of machine at the HiFi store in Cali Colombia in the late 50's.

Thought the glowing tubes were mesmerizing.

I wish I bought one of those the many times I had a chance.


"My dad was a McIntosh man till the bitter end"


See, that's a difference. I don't buy anything the same between any of my systems. I enjoy the differences.
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post #173 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 01:20 PM
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I wish I bought one of those the many times I had a chance.
I have to believe tubes today aren't as fussy as they were in the 50's, no?
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post #174 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 01:20 PM
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I couldn't last night in that environment of an audio store between some Yamaha ?? 750 AVR and an equivalent Marantz in a noisier environment, unfamiliar speakers, unfamiliar material although he was trying to explain the difference I should be hearing, I couldn't tell. All I could see is a sea of black plastic on the front of both of them, but other than that .....

At home with my room, my material, my speakers, my everything else, but those two receivers and some time I'm more confident that I could.
again just for sh*ts and giggles could you pick out the Yamaha or the marantz receiver if 2 other cheap avr's where put into the mix ,so that random luck was not as easy

i'm so laid back,i'm laid out

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post #175 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 01:24 PM
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I have to believe tubes today aren't as fussy as they were in the 50's, no?

I intentionally look for NOS 50s and early 60s tubes. I think they sound better. The associated circuitry is better today. Still though it's been probably 25 years since I've had a tube 'red plate' on me.


I've had little trouble in the 60 years I've played in this hobby, the Dayton Wright XG8s excepted. And yeah the Quad EL 57s had their moment.
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post #176 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 01:53 PM
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Very impressive.

Pretty much what I always surmised.

My dad was a McIntosh man till the bitter end.

Still remember as a wee lad going with him so he could test his tubes in some kind of machine at the HiFi store in Cali Colombia in the late 50's.

Thought the glowing tubes were mesmerizing.

So do most people. The warm glow of a tube amp certainly adds atmosphere to the listening room. My father had a Mac 275 at one point in his life. Nice amp. He sold it when he bought a custom made output transformerless power amp. It was designed by an engineer at Tektronics. I have owned about 1/2 a dozen tube amps over the years. They all provided a lot of satisfaction.
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post #177 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 01:56 PM
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I couldn't last night in that environment of an audio store between some Yamaha ?? 750 AVR and an equivalent Marantz in a noisier environment, unfamiliar speakers, unfamiliar material although he was trying to explain the difference I should be hearing, I couldn't tell. All I could see is a sea of black plastic on the front of both of them, but other than that .....

At home with my room, my material, my speakers, my everything else, but those two receivers and some time I'm more confident that I could.

The science says you couldn't but anything is possible.
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post #178 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 01:57 PM
 
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I think I answered this before. I did two years of bias controlled comparisons with an audiophile society several years ago. The purpose was to determine which audible differences exist in the equipment and which exist in hearing bias. What we learned about amplifiers is that, while some amplifiers distort the sound they amplify, most do not. We also learned that that those that do have measurements that back up what we heard. As an example, one of our test subjects was a high end single ended triode amplifier that measured over 5% harmonic distortion. In bias controlled tests it was distinguishable from the control amplifier by most of the testers. My own Audio Research tube amp, on the other hand, was indistinguishable from the solid state control. Since it was fairly expensive, I put it up for sale the next day in preparation for replacing it with a far less expensive solid state unit. So some tube amps had a signature sound and some were linear. Among solid state home audio amplifiers, we found none that we tested had a signature sound. Does that mean that none have a signature sound. No. But we tested about 20 amps so I can conclude that any solid state units that do have a signature sound are rare. Not worth worrying about.

There were some pro amps that gave themselves away with fan noise but generally they were also linear once we disconnected the fans.

Armed with that knowledge I have never done a comparison of solid state amplifiers since. And I have never felt it meaningful to do a bias controlled comparison before buying an amplifier. I have always bought high fidelity solid state amplifiers with the confidence that there was no need to do listening tests. So to answer your question I practiced what I preach and haven't had to practice it again since.

The message is clear. I'm afraid you are shooting the messenger.
We have been down this road too many times. When asked, you won't provide any of your testing procedures or even what specific brands and models you compared. What you did prove is that your testing was able to mask audible differences.

There is something very wrong with a testing method that results in all those unnamed components sounding alike. That has never occurred in any of the blind tests in which I participated.

I do agree with this statement of yours: "I have never felt it meaningful to do a bias controlled comparison before buying an amplifier." I learned that lesson, too, after participating in blind tests, because such testing reveals very little about what an amplifier sounds like.
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post #179 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 01:59 PM
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I have to believe tubes today aren't as fussy as they were in the 50's, no?
I'm not sure what fussy means. Today they use printed circuit boards instead of point to point wiring and today they use tubes made in China, Russia and Eastern Europe. Otherwise there isn't all that much difference.
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post #180 of 362 Old 02-27-2016, 02:15 PM
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See, that's a difference. I don't buy anything the same between any of my systems. I enjoy the differences.
I subscribed to the same philosophy until very recently. For the first time, my system matches because I liked how it works in terms of design, build and (most importantly) sound quality. Each component performed beautifully on its own as I auditioned them, but together they have a fantastic synergy that drew me in.
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