"HD Vinyl" Mastering Process Promises Hi-Res Results - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post
If they actually eliminated all that analog warmth it is going to sound as sterile as those evil digital CDs.
The ultimate irony would be if these new LPs sound identical to the audio file or CD derived from it. Now THAT would be interesting.
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post #152 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 08:38 AM
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I recently got a turntable from a friend’s wife who’s husband passed. I got a lot of albums from the 60s and 70s. Also got a new stylus for my Shure V15 III Cartridge.

It’s kinda fun to play my old albums, but also a hassle. Yeah, the old Analog Sound is cool. And so is the art work on the album covers.

I recently got a I Mac computer. They gave me 3 months of I Tunes for free. But, I much more prefer the ease of using I Tunes. And I feel the sound of I Tunes is superior to my LP’s.

Don’t hate me vinyl lovers. Just my opinion.

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post #153 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 08:46 AM
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I’ve been loving listening to my 35 yr old albums on my new Pro-ject Espirit turntable; blows away my CDs and any streaming. Recently purchased 60 albums from 5 sellers to add to my original collection
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post #154 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Skytrooper View Post
I recently got a turntable from a friend’s wife who’s husband passed. I got a lot of albums from the 60s and 70s. Also got a new stylus for my Shure V15 III Cartridge.

It’s kinda fun to play my old albums, but also a hassle. Yeah, the old Analog Sound is cool. And so is the art work on the album covers.

I recently got a I Mac computer. They gave me 3 months of I Tunes for free. But, I much more prefer the ease of using I Tunes. And I feel the sound of I Tunes is superior to my LP’s.

Don’t hate me vinyl lovers. Just my opinion.

"And I feel the sound of I Tunes is superior to my LP’s"

No hate, but IMO you're doing something wrong. Most of my LPs sound superior to (Disclaimer: to me, to my ears, on my systems, in my house) Tidal's MQA 'Masters Series" and to their CD quality Hifi. I have a few hires downloads that are close and four SACDs that might even be a little better, but that's out of 3,000 to 4,000 CDs and 20,000+ LPs. But that's only on the ESLs . Up here with cones and dome that sound very nice, but don't resolve particularly well, its about the same.

And true, vinyl is more work or as some would say, ritual. I've been playing with vinyl for six or seven decades so its not much of an issue to me, other than right now, when a LP has ended and I gotta get up to go change the damn thing. urg

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post #155 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post
Good turntables are relatively cheap these days, and there's something to be said for having physical copies of something you like; LPs especially are gratifying as you've got interesting liner notes & art as an added bonus to a feeling of ownership.
Maybe initially but LP slips made out of paper/cardboard are easily damaged when taking LP in and out of the packaging, or by pulling the slip case out of a collection of many. Now a good turntable that has very good rumble characteristics is not cheap, neither is a cartridge with extended frequency response, separation of channels. While I thought Vinyl was very collectible for awhile, it seems best to mount interesting LP slip cases on ones walls like movie posters to represent bygone music industry era. Enjoy you collection.

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post #156 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 09:32 AM
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Seems to be doing fine as is these days. I was wondering the other day how the industry was holding up in handling the new demand and if/how much new record manufacturing plants/gear is out there....got any scoop on how the old gear is holding up, being maintained/breaking down, that sort of thing?
After bottoming out, pressing facilities are, for the first time in eons, on the increase. Modest numbers for now, but decidedly on the upswing. Some new from scratch (ha) and some machines that'd been mothballed are being refurbished.

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1. I like collecting things. 2. I love the huge presentation of the artwork. It's often gorgeous and so much nicer to look at then a condensed version on a cd. 3. I love the ritual of cleaning the vinyl, of having to flip it to the other side if it's a 2xLP, taking one off and putting the other one on the TT. It feels like you're more involved than just hitting a play button and walking away. 4. Some albums I have, like Opeth's, "Blackwater Park," or Kid Brother Collective's "Highway Miles," just sound superior on vinyl.
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Vinyl spinner here, I love the process and the sound. 1000+ albums I've been collecting since I was a teenager. I still have the Beatles Double White I bought when I was 15 yo. Each of my HT set ups has a separate 2 channel set up. I have 7 turntables. The nicest being a Sony PS-X65. One sweet table.

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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post
Good turntables are relatively cheap these days, and there's something to be said for having physical copies of something you like; LPs especially are gratifying as you've got interesting liner notes & art as an added bonus to a feeling of ownership.
I agree wholeheartedly with all of the above. For me, it's simply more satisfying and involving to listen to vinyl on my 2-channel rig. I actually sit and...listen. Just listen. No reading, screens, laundry, or other multi-tasking. I had basically stopped doing that with digital (CD then iTunes, Spotify, and Tidal).

BTW I can and do stream to that same rig when called for (e.g. a dinner party where I'm hosting and oughtn't leave the table every 20 minutes). Now, you can say, well, see? Your turntable is holding you hostage! Or something to that effect. And from a certain POV that's true. But I don't just "sit and listen" to the streaming stuff - it's background only for me.

For me it does provide a positive impact to focus on one thing and one thing alone. Like going for a walk or run without listening to music or an audio book. I do it both ways, but sometimes it's nice to just walk with my thoughts, you know?

I've tried to "sit and listen" to streaming, especially with Tidal. But, I always come back to my vinyl...
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post #157 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
Maybe initially but LP slips made out of paper/cardboard are easily damaged when taking LP in and out of the packaging, or by pulling the slip case out of a collection of many. Now a good turntable that has very good rumble characteristics is not cheap, neither is a cartridge with extended frequency response, separation of channels. While I thought Vinyl was very collectible for awhile, it seems best to mount interesting LP slip cases on ones walls like movie posters to represent bygone music industry era. Enjoy you collection.

Enjoy you collection too.


I have LPs that are up to 71 years old, that I had since new, that are close to or completely quiet. True, I wasn't allowed to handle my own LPs without supervision until I was about 10 years old, but somehow someway the vast majority survived intact all these decades. I only have 20,000 LPs so that's problem of not enough of a sample.

Even my earliest stereo classical albums that got played a bunch back then because of the novelty of stereo are mostly quiet such as this 1957 Merc. True, crap recording on my phone mic and the phone itself makes some noises. but I was all of 13 when I got this album. This one wasn't a gift, but bought with my paper route money. I always had good to great tables and carts, but not the absolute best out there. I could do it as a young, belligerent, snot-faced, punk so I'm sure others could too. And this is on the cheapest table I've ever owned that's in my budget system. There is a soft tick at 1:51 though

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post #158 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
"the audio is first digitally converted to a 3D topographic map"

That "audio" is quite likely the hi-res version one can directly buy "as is" from several online services.
At best, the result could be a quite convincing approximation. By definition impossible to be superior to the original, being a copy.
Certainly if by "superior" you mean "accurately preserving the source information."

From that standpoint it does seem kind of funny to want to transfer hi-res audio to vinyl.

But "superior" can also mean "superior sound" or "superior listening experience." And then that can obviously get subjective. In that sense I find many of my vinyl LPs "superior" to the digital counterparts. Sometimes the particular sound imparted by the analog version is preferable to me in various ways.
I've found that with a high quality turntable set up, many of the more gross (obvious) distortions associated with vinyl are much reduced (hiss, distortion of various kinds, etc), leaving a more pristine version of the "analog sound" - all the good with little of the bad.

I'd certainly be interested to try this new HD vinyl thingy.
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post #159 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
But "superior" can also mean "superior sound" or "superior listening experience." And then that can obviously get subjective. In that sense I find many of my vinyl LPs "superior" to the digital counterparts. Sometimes the particular sound imparted by the analog version is preferable to me in various ways.
I've found that with a high quality turntable set up, many of the more gross (obvious) distortions associated with vinyl are much reduced (hiss, distortion of various kinds, etc), leaving a more pristine version of the "analog sound" - all the good with little of the bad.
Speaking of a superior sound there were devices that were quite effective on removal of vinyl playback issues from years back, two good examples where Phase Linear's 1000 Autocorrelator that was capable of total elimination of rumble without audio nuances being effected, just needed to dial to a settings where the effect occurs but no farther, and SAE 5000 Impulse Noise Reduction System which when used in a similar fashion could remove those ticks and pops that used to exasperate a vinyl connoisseur. Did anything like this ever reoccur in the industry? Just wondering since I haven't been following the HD Vinyl movement that closely.

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post #160 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
Speaking of a superior sound there were devices that were quite effective on removal of vinyl playback issues from years back, two good examples where Phase Linear's 1000 Autocorrelator that was capable of total elimination of rumble without audio nuances being effected, just needed to dial to a settings where the effect occurs but no farther, and SAE 5000 Impulse Noise Reduction System which when used in a similar fashion could remove those ticks and pops that used to exasperate a vinyl connoisseur. Did anything like this ever reoccur in the industry? Just wondering since I haven't been following the HD Vinyl movement that closely.

"those ticks and pops that used to exasperate a vinyl connoisseur"


What ticks or pops?
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post #161 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 11:41 AM
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"those ticks and pops that used to exasperate a vinyl connoisseur"


What ticks or pops?
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post #162 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 11:44 AM
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post #163 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 11:51 AM
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^ Sounds like an interesting discussion could arise discussing impulse noise from worn vinyl LP’s compared to natural film grain discussions with videos derived from various cameras.

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post #164 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 12:05 PM
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^ Sounds like an interesting discussion could arise discussing impulse noise from worn vinyl LP’s compared to natural film grain discussions with videos derived from various cameras.
Recorded this before I found the even older one posted above

"natural film grain discussions "

Wut?

Sure I could go out in the driveway and drive over a LP with my car and create a noisy LP or I could do the same with a CD, but it might not play at all.

Now, given the vid you posted, do you think its possible that the video dude picked the nosiest LP he could find to exaggerate the effect of the processor?

And also true, that I bought a new mic for my camera to use at Axpona so I could now record some better vids, but that entails ducking the youtube copyright Nazis and one of these days it's going to catch up with me.

It does sound better though if everyone around me could shhhhh for a minute or two.


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post #165 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Sure I could go out in the driveway and drive over a LP with my car and create a noisy LP or I could do the same with a CD, but it might not play at all.

Now, given the vid you posted, do you think its possible that the video dude picked the nosiest LP he could find to exaggerate the effect of the processor?

And also true, that I bought a new mic for my camera to use at Axpona so I could now record some better vids, but that entails ducking the youtube copyright Nazis and one of these days it's going to catch up with me.

It does sound better though if everyone around me could shhhhh for a minute or two.
I was only thinking of the accidental damage that occurs with long term LP handling, please don't drive your car over a LP you care about.

I'm sure you are as careful as any of us, I am and have some very old 78's. Yes only on youtube do you find the grossest examples of recordings. Yes that was horrible as far as playback quality.

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post #166 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 12:43 PM
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I was only thinking of the accidental damage that occurs with long term LP handling, please don't drive your car over a LP you care about.

I'm sure you are as careful as any of us, I am and have some very old 78's. Yes only on youtube do you find the grossest examples of recordings. Yes that was horrible as far as playback quality.

I didn't have that many 78s. All of my 78s were noisy IIRC. They're all gone. My era started with the advent of the LP in 1947. I still have every one of them. I do have some real turds as some of my used LP purchase didn't go so well. I rarely do that because its less that a 50 - 50 chance that get something decent.
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post #167 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 01:31 PM
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As someone that moved on from using LP's mostly, why do people still feel so attached to a media that is so easily damaged? FYI I had inline impulse reduction, noise reduction and dynamic range recovery boxes to remove imperfections caused by mastering or wear and tear, but with comparisons to recent optical media, I just don't get it why people cling to expensive turntables and LP's anymore? Storing them is a PITA also.
Because they are more fun to play and display than a CD or digital file. The fidelity can also be excellent with the right gear. If you are just going on "easily damaged" and less storage space then you could also very easily make the argument that optical media is more delicate than digital files which can be copied to the cloud, backed up, etc - plus digital files use no physical storage space other than a small hard drive or two for your entire collection - and hence digital files would then be preferable over optical media. Its also arguable digital files from HD tracks like 24bit/192khz PCM and DoP (or for those who like it MQA) are superior to any current optical physical media that still gets regular releases.

I use both vinyl and digital files myself for audio and no longer use optical media.

For video I use optical media because there is no good digital equivalent that is easy to store (just too much storage space for a large collection) and I also don't see the need for portability with video - i.e. I don't watch a movie driving in the car, that's just dangerous - but I will likely listen to a digital audio track. Additionally, I will sit down and watch a movie for 2 hours while sometimes with digital audio I want to skip around tracks from different artists - not the same with movies as typically you wouldn't want to watch 5min clips from different movies back to back (if you did you're better off watching a trailers disc).

So basically, album experience I use LP; portability and if not in the mood for an album digital files. A lot of the time when buying an LP they give you a free digital copy as well.
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post #168 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Skytrooper View Post
I recently got a turntable from a friend’s wife who’s husband passed. I got a lot of albums from the 60s and 70s. Also got a new stylus for my Shure V15 III Cartridge.

It’s kinda fun to play my old albums, but also a hassle. Yeah, the old Analog Sound is cool. And so is the art work on the album covers.

I recently got a I Mac computer. They gave me 3 months of I Tunes for free. But, I much more prefer the ease of using I Tunes. And I feel the sound of I Tunes is superior to my LP’s.

Don’t hate me vinyl lovers. Just my opinion.
The truth is you need to spend a lot of money to get a vinyl setup that gives you comparatively equal fidelity sound to a much cheaper CD/digital setup. But once you get to that point of really good sounding vinyl setup its more desirable than CD/digital IMO.

IMO, for cartridge, minimum I would go to match CD is a Ortofon Cadenza Red, that alone will set you back $1300. There are cheaper cartridges that sound really good (Goldring Elite comes to mind, or for less money Ortofon Quintet Blue is nice too but not same league as Goldring Elite) but Ortofon Cadenza Red is the cheapest one I've found that actually is equivalent to CD quality. Under $100 something like the Sumiko Pearl will have a pleasing sound but not very accurate. The audiotechnica cartridges you see cheap sound "okay" but often are noisy, track poorly, etc.

Then, for the turntable to get something with similar isolation and stability to CD you need something with either magnetic isolation feet or tons of vibration absorption material and electronic speed control, heavy enough platter to ensure constant speed, and this will easily set you back over $1500. A lot of options here, but a bad place to skimp as all those vibrations on a poorly designed turntable will be picked up by the stylus.

Finally the phono stage, if you want to get the most out of that expensive cart its another $500+, but this is actually the area I've found you can cut costs the most. The Emotiva XPS-1 actually does an amazing job for $129, but if you want the most out of your cart something like the Musical Fidelity MX-VNYL with its XLR outs and reference level frequency response will do the job - especially as sometimes its a long run from the phono preamp to the main preamp due to the challenges in placing a turntable.
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post #169 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 03:48 PM
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As someone that moved on from using LP's mostly, why do people still feel so attached to a media that is so easily damaged? FYI I had inline impulse reduction, noise reduction and dynamic range recovery boxes to remove imperfections caused by mastering or wear and tear, but with comparisons to recent optical media, I just don't get it why people cling to expensive turntables and LP's anymore? Storing them is a PITA also.
Simple - nostalgia.

Nostalgia is very powerful. I suffer from it, but my nostalgia is 80's arcade machines, not the snap, crackle, pop of Rice Krispies...I mean LPs. I remember when the CD came out and swore off LP's forever.
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post #170 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 04:10 PM
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Simple - nostalgia.

Nostalgia is very powerful. I suffer from it, but my nostalgia is 80's arcade machines, not the snap, crackle, pop of Rice Krispies...I mean LPs. I remember when the CD came out and swore off LP's forever.

What snap crackle pop?
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post #171 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 04:33 PM
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I couldn't do LPs after SACD and DVD Audio came out. Benefit of 5.1 and CLEAN sound without the pops and crackle AND listening to gapless albums like pink floyd ones did the trick for me. Not too mention having to get up and flip the records, sometimes twice!
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I couldn't do LPs after SACD and DVD Audio came out. Benefit of 5.1 and CLEAN sound without the pops and crackle AND listening to gapless albums like pink floyd ones did the trick for me. Not too mention having to get up and flip the records, sometimes twice!
Flip the record twice? 3 sided record? Is this like the Monty Python record?
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post #173 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 04:36 PM
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I couldn't do LPs after SACD and DVD Audio came out. Benefit of 5.1 and CLEAN sound without the pops and crackle AND listening to gapless albums like pink floyd ones did the trick for me. Not too mention having to get up and flip the records, sometimes twice!

What pop and crackle?
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post #174 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 04:38 PM
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What pop and crackle?
Yep, if you use a nice cart, like that Ortofon Candenza Red I mentioned as an example, and also clean the records when dirty, pop and crackle generally not an issue (aside from the occasional bad pressing). Using a cheap moving magnet cart, yeah you are gonna get pop and crackle. It is eons cheaper and easier to get lack of pop and crackle on CD/digital admittedly.
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post #175 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 04:45 PM
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Albums in general. Unless meticulously maintained, they are easily subject to dust or other blemishes. CDs have to be really abused to have problems.
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I couldn't do LPs after SACD and DVD Audio came out. Benefit of 5.1 and CLEAN sound without the pops and crackle AND listening to gapless albums like pink floyd ones did the trick for me. Not too mention having to get up and flip the records, sometimes twice!












That's a bunch of albums. There'd be a bunch more if it weren't for the copyright Nazis.
Tell you what, I'll do you one better. Next time you're in then neighborhood, give me a shout, and stop on by.
We'll pull out 20 albums (that's about 18 hours worth, if I can stay awake that long) and I'll pay you a buck a pop. You game?
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post #176 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 04:47 PM
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Flip the record twice? 3 sided record? Is this like the Monty Python record?
Like the U2's Joshua tree double LP, among MANY others... I don't listen to jazz and classical
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post #177 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 04:47 PM
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Yep, if you use a nice cart, like that Ortofon Candenza Red I mentioned as an example, and also clean the records when dirty, pop and crackle generally not an issue (aside from the occasional bad pressing). Using a cheap moving magnet cart, yeah you are gonna get pop and crackle. It is eons cheaper and easier to get lack of pop and crackle on CD/digital admittedly.

Nope, budget system with cheap table $299 and very hot, noisy cart. Ortofon Blue. Widely known to be noisy.


I wish my phone was as pop free as my LPs
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post #178 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 04:54 PM
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Yep, if you use a nice cart, like that Ortofon Candenza Red I mentioned as an example, and also clean the records when dirty, pop and crackle generally not an issue (aside from the occasional bad pressing). Using a cheap moving magnet cart, yeah you are gonna get pop and crackle. It is eons cheaper and easier to get lack of pop and crackle on CD/digital admittedly.
I occasionaly do get them(pops, crackle and surface noise) depending on the pressings. I have a Project Audio RM-5.1 With a Sumiko Blue Point #2 Cartridge. I clean all the records even even new ones with the Spin-Clean record cleaner, using distilled water and their solution
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post #179 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 04:58 PM
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I occasionaly do get them depending on the pressings. I have a Project Audio RM-5.1 With a Sumiko Blue Point #2 Cartridge. I clean all the records even even new ones with the Spin-Clean record cleaner, using distilled water and their solution
I have listened to most of the under $700 Sumiko line, although its preference to be honest though the Sumikos are good for me I personally feel there are better values - with the exception of the under $100 Sumikos I felt were best values; the Pearl especially gave a very nice sound for the price. In your case I believe it came with the RM 5.1 and was probably quite a deal. IIRC that one is a 2.5mv cart - when you have some cash down the line check out an Ortofon Quintet Blue (0.5mv) or Goldring Eroica LX (0.5mv) if compatible with your phono preamp and you might be pleased with the difference.

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post #180 of 242 Old 04-18-2018, 05:13 PM
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I occasionaly do get them(pops, crackle and surface noise) depending on the pressings. I have a Project Audio RM-5.1 With a Sumiko Blue Point #2 Cartridge. I clean all the records even even new ones with the Spin-Clean record cleaner, using distilled water and their solution

I've bought some disasters, but almost all of them used, where it's WTF did these people do to these? You're safest with used classical because those folks generally are a little more careful. Then jazz and ECM type material next. I only recall one album new and that was just last year. It was a remastered Pink Floyd Ummagumma, which might be the worst album I've ever bought new. It was pressed by United in Memphis. I should record and put that up here to show that I do indeed have at least one really BAD album. And I mean it's BAD.

The really popular stuff such as Abbey Road or MJ's Thriller, although completely tick and pop free, get shut down due to copyright claims in about 15 seconds. (I've tried)

As I said earlier, I have LPs (mono) that I've had since new (1947) that are completely tick, pop, crackle free. I wasn't allowed to go it alone without supervision with the table until I was ten or eleven ..... so 1954 or so. Still regardless of circumstances, one would have to admit that I have amazingly clean vinyl for 60+ years old.

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