Want a 2 channel amp but may have to go the avr route ? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 102 Old 11-18-2016, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Michaelangelo_ View Post
Yes -- use an SPL meter to make sure the volumes are the same, and then A/B the AVR and AMP.
Not just any SPL meter. An inexpensive SPL meter may not be precise enough as some people can hear less than a 1 db difference, which can bias an ABX test where one is trying to decide if two amps or DACs sound different.

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Originally Posted by _Michaelangelo_ View Post
* A 5.1 $1000 AVR, let's be extremely generous and say, has roughly 75% of circuity for audio. That's $125 of parts/channel dedicated to audio.

* Now compare and contrast to a two channel $1000 amp which has 100% of circuity for audio. That's $500 of parts/channel. The fact that the circuit designer doesn't have to worry about "video noise leakage" means the (audio) quality _should_ be better. This isn't rocket science, just basic engineering.
The problem with this argument is that it doesn't take into consideration that an inexpensive AVR may have distortion that is inaudible. In which case a lesser expensive inaudible device does not sound different from a more expensive inaudible device.

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post #92 of 102 Old 11-18-2016, 11:19 AM
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Again, it depends on how good your ears are. That's the reason some people just aren't interested in audiophile. Please don't say it is inaudible just because you can't tell the difference.

High end stuff is not for everybody. I don't even have HDTV setup even though all my tv have HDMI, my Samsung 65" LED is only one year old. My direct tv is not HD. It is not import for me, BUT I will never tell anyone that it makes no difference just because it's not important for me.

That said, logic say $1000 for 5 channels vs 2 channel, the 2 channels should be better. But in real world, it really dose not always true. It depends on the design also. It is more important to get the low end model of the highest quality brand than to get the highest model of a low end brand. For example, I would get the lowest end amp designed by Nelson Pass than the high end model of Cambridge Sound. Because I know how good Nelson Pass is.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 11-18-2016 at 11:27 AM.
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post #93 of 102 Old 11-18-2016, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Michaelangelo_ View Post
Yes -- use an SPL meter to make sure the volumes are the same, and then A/B the AVR and AMP.

_WHY_ there is even a difference in the first place though?

Let's turn to basic Math to tell us:

* A 5.1 $1000 AVR, let's be extremely generous and say, has roughly 75% of circuity for audio. That's $125 of parts/channel dedicated to audio.

* Now compare and contrast to a two channel $1000 amp which has 100% of circuity for audio. That's $500 of parts/channel. The fact that the circuit designer doesn't have to worry about "video noise leakage" means the (audio) quality _should_ be better. This isn't rocket science, just basic engineering.

So with the higher budget to play with, who do you think is going to chose the higher quality components? The AVR jack-of-all-trades that is going with the cheapest components to get the cost as low as possible, or the AMP master-of-one who doesn't have to pander to the race-to-the-bottom-of-the-barrrel extremely price conscientious consumer?

Obviously DSP room correction changes the equation, but dollars for dollars, a 2 ch amp should sound better then an AVR. Obviously, there are always exceptions.

Something else to keep in mind is that Music usually doesn't get down to 20 Hz the way Movies do. Sometimes you'll see amps sacrifice "extension", that is, fall off sharply at 40 Hz but what they give up they gain in quality -- they are much "flatter" across the board.

Audio quality is a constant battle between:

* THD
* volume
* responsiveness
* crossover balance
* DSP correction for sound nodes and sound nulls,
* etc.

This is why the one person can love one amp and another person can hate it.

This week I got to hear the Cambridge Audio CXA80 and the Yamaha A-S801. Immediately I noticed A-S801 was "brighter" -- the salesman was surprised I picked up on it so quickly -- but it was obvious to me. Some people prefer the "brighter" sounds, others want a more "neutral" or "laid back" feel.

It all depends on what you prefer.



Probably, but as I've said in other threads:

The _only_ way to KNOW is to listen in YOUR room -- because otherwise you're just listening to someone else's hyperbole.
I find slightly brighter sound likely the result of excess odd harmonics THD. My Acurus 200WX3 is a little bright and thinner, it turn out it was under biased on top of the circuit topology. It help when I adjust the bias to spec. But there is no simple fix to lower the odd harmonics.

I studied a lot of power amp schematics( I have a library of schematics from like Krell, Bryston, Cary, Pass Lab, Threshold, Acuphase, Mark Levinston, Adcom, Mcintach etc.), I never ones saw a power amp that the designer put any circuit to make it brighter or warmer.

I don't know anything about Yamaha, I can't comment on their quality. I do know Doug Self that wrote one of the two most famous book for power amp design and theory. He designed some of the Cambridge Sound amplifiers. He even have a patent on how to stay away from the crossover distortion area in the power amp. I would imagine the ones he designed is of good quality.

Listen and compare is the only way to tell. THD and output power spec do not mean a thing just listen to it. As I kept saying, if you don't have the ears, buy the cheaper one that sounds the same. Consider yourself lucky you don't have to spend the money!!! If you can hear the difference, then you are the unlucky ones that has to dole out money.

As for using the SPL meter to measure the volume, I don't see how you can read the meter as the meter keep jumping around with the sound. The music is never constant level, and is inaccurate to rely on the peak detector reading. You want to have more accurate matching, design a test fixture that can switch from one to the other amp by a flick of a switch or even remote switching. So you can sit at the sweet spot and switch instantly between the two amps. I designed and build one of this switch already and use it when I finish building my own design.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 11-18-2016 at 01:03 PM.
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post #94 of 102 Old 11-18-2016, 01:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Again, it depends on how good your ears are. That's the reason some people just aren't interested in audiophile. Please don't say it is inaudible just because you can't tell the difference.
For the sake of your claimed good hearing, it would be a good confirmation process for you to do a level matched DBT of the electronic audio equipment. Until you do, please don't be so sure that you really can tell the difference because I've seen people who have made such claim, couldn't tell the difference once the levels are matched and couldn't see which equipment is being used.
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post #95 of 102 Old 11-18-2016, 01:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Listen and compare is the only way to tell.
If you want to evaluate the sound, yes, I agree.
However, it matters a lot how it's compared. Level unmatched, sighted, bias uncontrolled listening won't produce meaningful results if one wants to know about the audible aspect. On the other hand, if one wants to just entertain himself, then sure, anything goes.
Quote:
As for using the SPL meter to measure the volume, I don't see how you can read the meter as the meter keep jumping around with the sound. The music is never constant level, and is inaccurate to rely on the peak detector reading.
That's why voltmeter is used. As for the specific method of how it's done, there are many posts on this forum for you to search in case you want to know.
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post #96 of 102 Old 11-18-2016, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
If you want to evaluate the sound, yes, I agree.
However, it matters a lot how it's compared. Level unmatched, sighted, bias uncontrolled listening won't produce meaningful results if one wants to know about the audible aspect. On the other hand, if one wants to just entertain himself, then sure, anything goes. That's why voltmeter is used. As for the specific method of how it's done, there are many posts on this forum for you to search in case you want to know.
Can you detail how you use the volt meter to do this.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #97 of 102 Old 11-18-2016, 07:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Can you detail how you use the volt meter to do this.
This is what I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
As for the specific method of how it's done, there are many posts on this forum for you to search in case you want to know.
One is to play tone when adjusting. Try the search exercise. It's good for you.
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post #98 of 102 Old 11-18-2016, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
This is what I said. One is to play tone when adjusting. Try the search exercise. It's good for you.
I want to see how you do it.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #99 of 102 Old 11-18-2016, 07:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I want to see how you do it.
I may if you first apologize for your snide comment made here and take back every thing you stated in that post.
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post #100 of 102 Old 11-18-2016, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
I may if you first apologize for your snide comment made here and take back every thing you stated in that post.
You did it before with the volt meter?

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #101 of 102 Old 11-19-2016, 08:43 AM
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A principal of Harbeth speakers lists instructions for leveling amplifier output using a multimeter, post 24; prior posts in the thread cover different meters.

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2431-Setting-up-to-gain-match-audio-amplifiers/page2&
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post #102 of 102 Old 11-19-2016, 12:09 PM
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^^^^^^ Very helpful ^^^^^^
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