Going from 683s2 to CM10 for more SPL? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 17 Old 11-12-2016, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Going from 683s2 to CM10 for more SPL?

Short version: Will the CM10s produce more volume running on the same equipment than 683s2s ?

Long version: I have a Rotel RB1582MKII poweramp and a Marantz KI-Pearl Lite I use as a preamp. The turntable (Audio Technica AT-LP5) is directly connected to the marantz's phono stage. The CD player (Panasonic DMP-UB900EGK) is connected to a Denon AVR-X7200WA which in turn is connected by Zone 2 to the Marantz's aux input.

I have no complaints whatsoever with the sound quality but when I play LPs the volume is lacking. I mean it can get pretty loud but not as loud as "OMG MY EARS HURT" loud.

When I play a CD, it's a very different story. It is LOUD. Very, very LOUD. %99 of the loudness I'm looking for in fact. But I like spinning records more so I want at the least the same amount of loudness.

Should I get a pair of CM10s ? Will the volume get higher?

Or should I bite the bullet and get a Technics SL1200G ?

Is this my turntable's fault or am I at the limit of that analog technology?

Another interesting observation I made when playing LPs is that the lowrange drivers are constantly on the move no matter what track I listen to but there's no sound coming from them to warrant such an extension. It's really weird seeing them extend like this. As I get closer to the absolute maximum on the volume knob resonance and a low frequency humming starts and I fear it will destroy my speakers so I turn it down. When I play CDs none of that silly business happens with the lowrange drivers. As far as the volume knob goes, the SPL gets to uncomfortable levels when I push near the maximum so I don't do that.
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post #2 of 17 Old 11-12-2016, 06:26 AM
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A guess: There are two types of phono cartridges - Moving coil and moving magnet. I believe one has much lower output (MC?) than the other. Some phono pre-amps support both, some don't. You may just need to flick a switch or setting on your pre-amp. There shouldn't be that big of difference in "loudness" between your source components if everything is done correctly even given the "different" way you have them connected.

Edit: I just looked, the Pearl Lite only supports Phono MM (moving magnet). If you have a MC cartridge, you'll need to change something.

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post #3 of 17 Old 11-12-2016, 07:01 AM
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"It comes outfitted with a lightweight (10 g) AT-HS10 headshell and high-performance AT95EX Dual Moving Magnet stereo cartridge, created specifically for this turntable. "
If no cartridge changes were made by you... MM.


"The AT-LP5 features a built-in switchable phono/line preamp that enables it to be connected directly to a computer, home stereo, powered speakers and other components that have no dedicated turntable input."
Check the switch setting on the turntable.
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post #4 of 17 Old 11-12-2016, 07:23 AM
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The X7200 should have a way to turn up the relative gain on an input source. Not sure if that affects Zone outputs though.

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post #5 of 17 Old 11-12-2016, 12:27 PM
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Check my response on the UK forums -

https://www.avforums.com/threads/goi...#post-24374015

Basically we need to determine if the CD is too loud, or if the Turntable is too quiet. If you are using some variation of a MC (moving coil cartridge) even a High Output MC, then the output level is going to be low, and exceptionally low if you do not have the Phono Input set correctly, assuming it supports both MC and MM (moving magnet)>

The output of a typical MM is about 5mv, a typical MC is about 0.5mv, and a high output MC would be about 1.5mv. So, depending on what you have for a cartridge will determine whether the volume you are getting is appropriate.

I had a similar problem but it was my CD that was excessively loud, I have to reduce the output by about 12db to make it match what I considered the standard output from my turntable.

I would assume that a turntable like the Audio Technica AT-LP5 would have a pretty standard MM cartridge.

Here is a photo of the back of the Marantz KI-Pearl Lite, it does not seem to have any type of switch for MM/MC on the Phono Input -

http://m.marantz.co.uk/assets/images...-LITE_Back.jpg

And here is a link to the specs -

http://m.marantz.co.uk/uk/mobile/pro...d=pmkipeallite

Could you give us some sense of the volume difference using the clock-face position of the volume control? In my case, 9 o'clock gave me the same output as 11 o'clock on the volume dial - CD relative to Turntable.

You can read the full analysis of the volume differences I was having here -

https://www.avforums.com/threads/for...d-spl.1561542/

Again, uniquely my case, but I needed about 12db of attenuation to bring the CD down to what I considered standard levels. Though note the CD Player is actually a Harmon Universal DVD Player.

So, from my perspective, the first thing we need is to determine if the CD is too loud, or if the Turntable is too quiet. Those are very different problems with very different solutions.

Also, this is very likely a contributing factor -

The CD player (Panasonic DMP-UB900EGK) is connected to a Denon AVR-X7200WA which in turn is connected by Zone 2 to the Marantz's aux input.

Try connecting the CD Player directly to the Marantz Pearl Lite and see if you have the same problem.

Also, does the volume of the CD Player change when you change the volume on the Denon 7200. If so, then likely it is simply a matter of the volume control on the Denon being set too high.

The Panasonic UB900 is actually a BluRay Player unless I'm mistaken. Perhaps you could connect the Analog out connections to the Marantz and the HDMI connection to the Denon 7200, and find a workable compromise.



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Last edited by bluewizard; 11-12-2016 at 12:50 PM.
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post #6 of 17 Old 11-12-2016, 01:03 PM
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You are actually asking two very different and unrelated questions.

1.) Whether the CM10 is louder than the 683-S2? Answer: Yes and No. The CM10 has about 1db more output, but it also has THREE 6.5" bass drivers as opposed to the TWO 6.5" bass drivers of the 683. So, from that perspective, the CM10 will probably give the sense of more impact from the sound. And, the CM10 is a considerably better speaker.

But that question is unrelated to the description of the problem as it occurs in the body of your text. There the question seems to be -

2.) Why is my CD so much louder than my Turntable? Or, why is my Turntable so much quieter than my CD? We have yet to determine which of those is the valid question.

If the CD is actually too loud, then there are a couple ways of dealing with that. If the Turntable is actually too quiet, then assuming we can determine the cause, we can likely find a solutions.

But I'm very inclined to think that the real problem lies in this statement -

The CD player (Panasonic DMP-UB900EGK) is connected to a Denon AVR-X7200WA which in turn is connected by Zone 2 to the Marantz's aux input.

I would suggest a direct Analog Output connection between the Panasonic and the Marantz, and see if the problem is the same.

In my case, it really was that my Universal Player was substantially louder than my turntable. But in your case, I suggest it is something about the connection between the Denon 7200 and the Marantz.

As mentioned, you can connect the Analog Out of the Panasonic Player to the Marantz, while still keeping the HDMI between the Panasonic and Denon.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; 11-12-2016 at 01:11 PM.
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post #7 of 17 Old 11-12-2016, 05:06 PM
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I agree. This is most likely a phono setting issue. It's not worth the upgrade from the 683S2 to the CM10 for an insignificant increase in SPL. The CM10 is much better for SQ however.

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post #8 of 17 Old 11-13-2016, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post
I agree. This is most likely a phono setting issue. It's not worth the upgrade from the 683S2 to the CM10 for an insignificant increase in SPL. The CM10 is much better for SQ however.
A pure guess on my part, but I think the problem is more likely that the CD is connected to the AVR which is then connected to the Marantz Stereo. That is a long convoluted path, when the CD, which is really a BluRay, can be connected directly to the Marantz by analog connections, while the BluRay is still connected to the AVR by HDMI for video play back.

I would suggest the OP try a direct connect between the Player and the Stereo and see if he still has he same problem.

I speculate, but based on my own experience, my guess would be that the Player is too loud rather than the Turntable being too quiet, though I don't think I have enough information to say definitively.

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post #9 of 17 Old 11-13-2016, 12:19 PM
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It doesn't seem to me that there is any problem with the CD player. It's obviously the turntable which is not providing enough line level input.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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post #10 of 17 Old 11-14-2016, 12:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Well I tried to set the switch to "line" and connected the LP5 to the CD input of the Marantz. It made no difference in volume, in fact the feedback & noise I have amplified. The built in phono stage of the turntable is IMO worse than the Marantz's.

I also tried the phono stage of the Denon, and yes you can not only adjust the volume of the source but also it has a gain setting for all connected analog sources. It gives me the volume I want, but I don't like the inconvenience of switching on the poweramp, then the denon, setting zone 2, then turning the marantz on and setting its source as well. Also I really don't like adding another device in the loop. There's bound to be some king of signal degradation when dealing with analog stuff. Not to mention added cable costs. And what about the sweet tone of the Marantz? After adding the Rotel I wasn't a fan of how it mellowed down the sound even further. I wonder what color the Denon adds to the sound also.

Regarding the relative volume difference, my predicament is very similar to yours. Also in my case, 9 o'clock gave me the same output as 11 o'clock on the volume dial. But I don't want to deal with it the way you did, by reducing the Denon's Zone 2 gain, I will have two dissatisfying (in regard to SPL) sources instead of one.

By connecting the CD player directly to the Marantz, the volume difference gets noticeably less. The Denon is the culprit here I believe. Either my settings or the circuitry is causing gain levels to be high when outputting sound to Zone2 AUX. But I really do like it and I want the same high volume for the other devices. That's why I'm asking whether or not getting a better speaker will increase the volume.
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post #11 of 17 Old 11-14-2016, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktorpil View Post
That's why I'm asking whether or not getting a better speaker will increase the volume.
The 683 is rated 89dB spl (2.83V, 1m), the CM10 at 90dB. So not much difference in volume at all based on B&W's specs.

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post #12 of 17 Old 11-15-2016, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktorpil View Post
....
Regarding the relative volume difference, my predicament is very similar to yours. Also in my case, 9 o'clock gave me the same output as 11 o'clock on the volume dial. But I don't want to deal with it the way you did, by reducing the Denon's Zone 2 gain, I will have two dissatisfying (in regard to SPL) sources instead of one.

By connecting the CD player directly to the Marantz, the volume difference gets noticeably less. The Denon is the culprit here I believe. Either my settings or the circuitry is causing gain levels to be high when outputting sound to Zone2 AUX. But I really do like it and I want the same high volume for the other devices. That's why I'm asking whether or not getting a better speaker will increase the volume.
That is very close to the problem I was having. My turntable which I consider the standard, for normal playback I would be in the 10 o'clock to the 11 o'clock range, but with the Universal Player, which is what you have, the volume for the same perceived sound was down around 9 o'clock. That means the Universal Player is too loud, and it sounded like it.

For me, attenuator solved it nicely.

As I suspected, the Denon was the problem. I suspect the Panasonic can be connected to both the Marantz and the Denon. HDMI to the Denon for movies, and direct analog connect between the Panasonic and the Marantz for music.

From my interpretations of what you said, when connected directly to the Marantz, there was less of a problem, which confirms my guess.

As to speakers, while the CM10 are better speakers, no they will not solve the volume disparity.

And how loud are you trying to play??? You must be seeking some crazy high volumes from your system, and from what I interpret, volumes that seem beyond the capability of the system. True the CD might sound louder, but I doubt that it sounds better. I my case, the CD sounded really bad, but it was a subtle distortion, it really made the music irritating to the point where I didn't even want to listen to CDs.

A typical Stereo amp with decent speakers should be able to hit 100db average, which is very loud, with the volume setting around 1 o'clock. Note that is AVERAGE volume level, not peak. So, again, how loud do you really want to go???? If you are seeking volumes in excess of 100db average, then you really need different equipment.

But then ... that's just my opinion.

I still think the right solution is Analog connect from the Panasonic to the Marantz for Music Playback. and HDMI from the Panasonic to the Denon for movie playback. Though there may be some aspect of the setup that I have yet to grasp.

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post #13 of 17 Old 04-28-2017, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I've just bit the bullet and got myself a new pair of CM10 S2s. All I can say is wow... Wow indeed. Without any break-in, these are around 40% louder at every frequency regardless of source. The SPL levels are easily at club / bar level. So loud and so tight, they rattle my brain. I couldn't be any happier.
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post #14 of 17 Old 04-29-2017, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktorpil View Post
I've just bit the bullet and got myself a new pair of CM10 S2s. All I can say is wow... Wow indeed. Without any break-in, these are around 40% louder at every frequency regardless of source. The SPL levels are easily at club / bar level. So loud and so tight, they rattle my brain. I couldn't be any happier.
Excellent.

Glad to hear your $4000 speaker investment was worth it to you.

Enjoy.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #15 of 17 Old 06-02-2019, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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It's been a little more than 2 years and I've already got two mid drivers from one speaker and the other speaker replaced entirely from warranty. A friend got his ASW CM's surround disintegrate.



First the incredibly underwhelming tin can sound of the T7 and this... I'm convinced that if it's made in China, it's not a B&W.



I wish I'd gotten something made in Europe, like a HECO.
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post #16 of 17 Old 06-03-2019, 09:36 AM
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If you're pushing that Rotel amp into clipping by playing as loud as you do, it'll blow any speaker regardless of price or quality.
After 1/2 volume on most amps, you start getting much more distortion with any extra volume output.
If you want even louder, look into speakers with even higher sensitivity.
Klipsch RP series or PSA speakers should do it.
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post #17 of 17 Old 06-20-2019, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Williams2 View Post
If you're pushing that Rotel amp into clipping by playing as loud as you do, it'll blow any speaker regardless of price or quality.
After 1/2 volume on most amps, you start getting much more distortion with any extra volume output.
If you want even louder, look into speakers with even higher sensitivity.
Klipsch RP series or PSA speakers should do it.

I hear no distortion after I've replaced the drivers. I still think it's a quality issue.
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