2 channel subwoofer integration: crossover or blend? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
#1 only. #2 is a kludge and I've never heard a system with this implementation sound better than mediocre.
The full range system is naturally rolling off as you start rolling in the sub woofer. No different than any crossover.

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post #32 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 06:39 PM
 
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The full range system is naturally rolling off as you start rolling in the sub woofer. No different than any crossover.
It is different. That puts strain on the speaker and increase distortion because it's approaching its own limits. This can be remedied by crossing over above that frequency.
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post #33 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 06:42 PM
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not all crossovers are the same so it depends

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post #34 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
It is different. That puts strain on the speaker and increase distortion because it's approaching its own limits...
It's rolling off, output is reduced as is the stress and the distortion.

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post #35 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 08:27 PM
 
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It's rolling off, output is reduced as is the stress and the distortion.
You are still wrong. It's not same as crossover cutoff. Speaker distortion increases way before it approaches its limit. With your example of full range system, there is additional distortion in the equation (Doppler distortion) which makes the situation even worse.
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post #36 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 08:39 PM
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You are still wrong. It's not same as crossover cutoff. Speaker distortion increases way before it approaches its limit. With your example of full range system, there is additional distortion in the equation (Doppler distortion) which makes the situation even worse.
Do you have a measurement for that?
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post #37 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 09:16 PM
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The full range system is naturally rolling off as you start rolling in the sub woofer. No different than any crossover.
Very different, especially if the main is ported. Almost no standard ported speaker has a HPF to stop overexcursion below tune so sending it a full range signal can cause added distortion up well into the midrange. Similarly, to get the same SPL at 40Hz as at 80Hz, you need to move 4x the air, so rolling off earlier to the sub will reduce the distortion to the mains as they are using less excursion cleaning up the midrange. It will also allow higher SPL. On most smaller 2 way speakers that a lot of people use have inadequate porting and many will have the ports compress.

Lastly placement will be more difficult as the sub(s) and the mains will be playing in overlapping ranges so potential to exacerbate existing modes or possible reinforcement/cancellation at some positions in the room.
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post #38 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 09:48 PM
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I'm not sure we are on the same page. The main is running full range so HPF is set by the crossover in the mains. The natural roll off is where the sub fills in and can be phased matched and equalized. The sub is the 4th way (in a 3 way system) with the sub coming in at the natural roll off of the main woofer. Sorry I'm not sure I understood your statements at all. If you have to cut off the mains to eliminate distortion, it sounds like your mains aren't cutting it as they were originally designed or you are talking about less than full range systems?

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post #39 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 10:11 PM
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I'm not sure we are on the same page.
I understand what you're saying, you're missing what I'm saying.

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The main is running full range so HPF is set by the crossover in the mains.
Show me a set of mains that have a HPF (not talking acoustic rolloff) in them.

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The natural roll off is where the sub fills in and can be phased matched and equalized. The sub is the 4th way (in a 3 way system) with the sub coming in at the natural roll off of the main woofer.
I get that, but at the natural roll off of the mains is not necessarily the place to put the xover.

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Sorry I'm not sure I understood your statements at all.
I can see that. Elaborate on what you don't understand and I'll expand when I have the time.

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If you have to cut off the mains to eliminate distortion, it sounds like your mains aren't cutting it as they were originally designed or you are talking about less than full range systems?
My system is flat in room (w/o subs) to 35Hz and will do about 130dB. I still xover to the subs at 60Hz, though after the rebuild I'll remeasure and decide on 60 or 80Hz.

However, every cone driver will have a transfer function that is not linear. Reducing excursion will lower non linear distortion in all speakers. How much and what type of distortion will depend upon the specific drivers.
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post #40 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 10:15 PM
 
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If you have to cut off the mains to eliminate distortion, it sounds like your mains aren't cutting it as they were originally designed or you are talking about less than full range systems?
Post # 17 and 37.
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post #41 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 10:27 PM
 
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Do you have a measurement for that?
Google search will yield many results.
BTW, what's with the measurement from a guy who claimed to be
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I'm a subjective reviewer not a scientist.
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post #42 of 266 Old 03-05-2017, 10:34 PM
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I'm a subjective reviewer not a scientist.

Do you actually review for a publication or mean you're an amateur hobbyist? If so, which publication?
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post #43 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 10:17 AM
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I run four different ways...

1. 40 Hz crossover (BM in my Oppo) for most PCM sources;
2. No bass management for most 3.0 or higher SACD sources - running "pure" DSD (see below);
3. Super sub with a crossover at 40 Hz for most stereo SACD sources;
4. No sub using the xlr outputs from the Oppo for some stereo sources (both PCM and DSD).


First of all I have a large soft room and all full range speakers; bass is not a big problem in my room/system relative to some other room/systems. Secondly I run an anti-mode 8033s-ii on the sub, which is always active (even with SACD). One of the less mentioned benefits of this is the tone correction.


In general I always prefer the sub with acoustic bass - otherwise a miss the "slam". I would prefer using a clean 40 Hz crossover to the "super sub" for stereo SACD sources but I don't want to put my crossover (actually an ICBM-1 analog bass manager) into the main L,R.

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post #44 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 11:38 AM
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...BTW, what's with the measurement from a guy who claimed to be
I often use measurements (mostly loudspeakers) to confirm what I am hearing. However measurements don't tell me anything about how the sound is presented.
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post #45 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 11:40 AM
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....Do you actually review for a publication or mean you're an amateur hobbyist? ...
Sorry, a subjective listener is a better description. I'm old the right words don't always pop into my brain, lol.
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post #46 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 11:57 AM
 
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I often use measurements (mostly loudspeakers) to confirm what I am hearing. However measurements don't tell me anything about how the sound is presented.
Which parameter measurements are you talking about?
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post #47 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 03:15 PM
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However measurements don't tell me anything about how the sound is presented.
They tell me one hell of a lot. But then I understand how to take them and what they represent. Most audiophiles don't.

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Sorry, a subjective listener is a better description. I'm old the right words don't always pop into my brain, lol.
Thanks for the clarification. I was merely curious.
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post #48 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 05:14 PM
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They tell me one hell of a lot. But then I understand how to take them and what they represent. Most audiophiles don't.
I worked as an engineer in a microwave measurement lab for 30 years...

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post #49 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 06:24 PM
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I worked as an engineer in a microwave measurement lab for 30 years...
Doesn't mean you understand AF. Check out my info and you'll see I have a similar background in RF and broadcast. Almost none of the RF engineers understood AF or acoustics beyond a very basic level. And please don't take this as snide, but I'm not seeing you do either.
I've also been designing and building speakers, xovers (active and passive) as well as my own test and measurement gear to do the development (at least until recently) for at least that long. And lots and lots of amplifier designs.
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post #50 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 06:34 PM
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I'm sure you have spent more time reading specs than I have but it's not rocket surgery.

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post #51 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 06:43 PM
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I'm sure you have spent more time reading specs than I have
And designing, measuring etc. It's a cheap shot that's been thrown over the years by subjectivist types that "you just read specs".

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but it's not rocket surgery.
Still doesn't mean you understand it. You probably think you do though.

Edit; still waiting for you to show me a speaker with a HPF.
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post #52 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 06:54 PM
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A crossover does blend, it's not like an 80hz crossover means the mains suddenly become silent at 79hz. Depending on how sophisticated your equipment is you may even be able to set the db rolloff for the mains below the crossover frequency, or even set up shelf filters instead of traditional crossover curves.

Would you want the midrange driver in your towers to play down to where it physically can't reproduce sound anymore instead of allowing it to cross to the woofer as the designer intended? If not, why would you want your woofers in your towers to do that instead of allowing them to handle the frequencies they handle best and letting a sub handle the ones it handles best?
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post #53 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 06:56 PM
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And designing, measuring etc. It's a cheap shot that's been thrown over the years by subjectivist types that "you just read specs".
You guys sure carry a lot of baggage. I meant that just as I wrote it. I'm 100% certain you have spent more time reading specs than I have because you need to for designing loudspeakers, you claim to have done for many years. I on the otherhand listen to loudspeakers and just refer to the specs. Sorry if that is some king of trigger for you.

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Still doesn't mean you understand it.You probably think you do though...
Is that necessary for this discussion? That's about your 3rd insult to me. I find it rather unproductive and weakens your credibility.

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post #54 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 07:17 PM
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...Edit; still waiting for you to show me a speaker with a HPF.
I wasn't getting my ideas across, I've been insulted multiple times, my opinions belittled, and a general tone of superiority. It's really not how I want to spend my spare time. My opinions are an effort to help others, I'm not seeing much of that on this site.

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post #55 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 08:36 PM
 
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Would you want the midrange driver in your towers to play down to where it physically can't reproduce sound anymore instead of allowing it to cross to the woofer as the designer intended? If not, why would you want your woofers in your towers to do that instead of allowing them to handle the frequencies they handle best and letting a sub handle the ones it handles best?
Good point. I used to wonder why some people would let their woofer to work harder when it doesn't have to but then I was indirectly presented a belief some of those people live with. It's the purity of audio signal. They fear that extra circuits of line level crossover degrades the signal quality so they try to avoid as much as possible. As for the poor woofer, they don't believe the sound quality is being degraded.
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post #56 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 08:48 PM
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Dang, take it easy on the guy.

Count me as part of the crowd who likes and uses crossovers. The exception is my stand mount speakers in my office, as 1) I don't want too much extension as I often listen late at night when the kids are asleep, and 2) Smaller monitors, IMO, don't exhibit as many enclosure related drawbacks with the bottom end.

My towers in the family room though (B&W CM9 S2) are crossed at 80hz. Like most tower speakers featuring smallish drivers, they don't exactly descend gracefully, regardless of what the specs show.

Add to that, and something which I haven't seen mentioned yet, amps are much happier staying well away from clip.

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post #57 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 08:52 PM
 
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My opinions are an effort to help others, I'm not seeing much of that on this site.
Your intention may be positive but when your posts contain misinformation, it does the opposite of helping others and it gets called out by other members on this forum. Then when that happens, you've displayed a lot of resistance for some reason. Now, if you are truly an expert in, say audio cables, and others contradict what you posted and you displayed a lot of resistance, that would be a different situation.
As you've claimed, you are a subjective reviewer, not a scientist and this is AVS forum where "S" stands for science. At lease here, the science aspect has a larger presence than other forums, FYI. Some like it, some don't. Those who like it, stay around, those who don't, they either leave or stay around (I wouldn't if I were them) with a lot of grief.
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post #58 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 08:57 PM
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Passive speakers don't have high pass filters in them,

I wish they did sometimes, I had a pair of towers that were ported for around 42Hz and I played some EDM through them that hit the high 20's with the bass drops. In the battle of voice coil VS magnet--the magnet always wins.

It is hard to spec the crossover for the subs, that depends on several factors. If your speaker goes down to 40Hz before rolling off and you have a giant room node at 55Hz, that can be cured by crossing multiple subwoofers higher than 55Hz to fill in the room node by using mutliple subs located in different areas around your room. You can model your speakers if you have the T/S specs and calculate how much Xmax is used up at different power levels. Sometimes you can get the spec sheets from the manufacturer that include distortion specs at different power levels--select the crossover depending on how much power you use and what your limit is for distortion. Oh yeah, lots of luck getting that information unless you are using professional drivers! Never know and it won't hurt to ask.

I think what Russ is talking about is the acoustic roll off at the upper end of the woofer (or mid) if it has a smooth roll off of say 12dB/Oct at say 2KHz--using a 12dB/Oct crossover point at 2KHz would combine with the natural roll off to make it a much steeper 24dB/Oct roll off with acoustic/passive components. That works well, but does not apply on the low end.

Now if your speaker or subwoofer is active, most of them will have high pass filters in them to prevent damage and turning your woofers into expensive rice hats--very true.

For passive speakers, say you have some vintage Brand X speakers and a vintage Brand Y amp and you don't want to shoot the old cone across the room, you have two options. The easiest way is to use an electronic crossover and select a high pass filter to match your speakers to protect them from frequencies they can't produce. Some electronic crossovers have limiters built in so a limit can be set to protect the drivers from too much power either by cranking them too hard or accidental volume knob rotation. Plug that thing in between the preamp and the amp, make the settings and done.

The last option is to get a box from Eminence called the Defend. It "sees" the actual signal from the speaker wires from the output of your amp and will filter out the things your speaker can't do, limits the power level AND will protect the speaker in case your old school amp decides to dump the power supply to your speakers.

The Defend would be a great addition to some vintage speakers like the Altec Voice of the Theater to protect your investment. Blowing speaker drivers is never fun but if they are really old, sometimes you can't replace anything.

In theory, you could add a passive high pass to any speaker--the size of the caps and inductors will be HUGE but it could be done. It would be a waste of power, can create phase issues and various other things so the active filters generally are your best bet.
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post #59 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 08:59 PM
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...Some like it, some don't. Those who like it, stay around, those who don't, they either leave or stay around (I wouldn't if I were them) with a lot of grief.
Yes, you guys seem very experienced at this aspect.

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post #60 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 09:05 PM
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I think what Russ is talking about is the acoustic roll off at the upper end of the woofer (or mid) ...
No I was attempting to talk about the lower woofer roll off. At this point I don't have much interest in exploring it further.
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