2 channel subwoofer integration: crossover or blend? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 09:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Russ69 View Post
Yes, you guys seem very experienced at this aspect.
What aspect?
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post #62 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 09:10 PM
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...technically--you could have subwoofers that use passive components to make the crossover and notch filters instead of EQ and a passive high pass filter--that is going to be one really HUGE pile O caps, inductors and resistors but it can be done...
Not really. Passive sub crossovers are [email protected], I had to redesign one once and when I ran simulation software and made test measurements was shocked by the puke that came out. I forced discontinuation of the product. What happens is the impedance peaks from the resonances play havoc with the voltage transfer, and you have a mess.

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To solve your problems with the old Pontiacs, just do an engine swap with an LS V-8 crate motor.
No, no, no. My old roommate had this figured out for an old El Camino. You shove in an Oldsmobile Rocket motor. The dimensions are different so you need custom motor mounts, and the driveshaft doesn't line up so you need to have a custom driveshaft cut, and IIRC a bumped reverse hood scoop for clearance. Oh, and custom header pipes, But other than that it's a "bolt-on" replacement!
:roll eyes:
The sick part is, I'm not joking, this was a true story. RIP Mike, you were a nut but I loved ya and miss the heck out of you. I gotta say, that motor ran smooooooooth, better than the Lexus wine glass commercial, you could not even tell the motor was running aside from the pulleys rotating.

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It is rather odd that they don't put bass management systems in 2 channel receivers...errr, integrated amps (same thing hold the tuner).
Amen, amen. It is STUPID. Especially when there is an output that says "Subwoofer"! They are just behind the times? Or too cheap? I dunno but it drives me nuts, because the highpass crossover relieving the low bass load from the mains and amp reduces distortion and adds headroom.
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post #63 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 09:12 PM
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No I was attempting to talk about the lower woofer roll off. At this point I don't have much interest in exploring it further.

FWIW, I understand what you're saying.
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post #64 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 09:13 PM
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See post 53 and 54.

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post #65 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by head_unit View Post
Not really. Passive sub crossovers are [email protected], I had to redesign one once and when I ran simulation software and made test measurements was shocked by the puke that came out. I forced discontinuation of the product. What happens is the impedance peaks from the resonances play havoc with the voltage transfer, and you have a mess.

I said you could, didn't claim you should! Throw in a zobel network in an attempt to tame the impedance peaks and next thing ya know, your crossover board looks like a fire sale at Radio Shack--and it still won't work right. Best to filter it out before it hits the speaker.


No, no, no. My old roommate had this figured out for an old El Camino. You shove in an Oldsmobile Rocket motor. RIP Mike, you were a nut but I loved ya and miss the heck out of you. I gotta say, that motor ran smooooooooth

Back about 20 years ago, knew a guy with a mint condition, restored 1955 Ford F100 (Effie!) The paint was a weird blue so I asked him. He told me it was a Dodge paint color and I laughed about the horror of the Ford faithful. He laughed and said "No, they get over it when they see this." He pops the hood and it had an Olds Rocket 350 under the hood. Heretic! Funny guy though, 4 wheel disc brakes, coil over suspension, roll bar with 3-point belts--he did not want to die. They call that "restomod" now and that boy enraged the Ford faithful.

Amen, amen. It is STUPID. Especially when there is an output that says "Subwoofer"! They are just behind the times? Or too cheap? I dunno but it drives me nuts, because the highpass crossover relieving the low bass load from the mains and amp reduces distortion and adds headroom.
Wish I could answer that for you--makes no sense to me. Of course, even "7.2" channel AVRs don't have two bass management channels for the ".2"...just parallel jacks so you can't set different delays to get your bass managment correct.

However, this is audio so usable features move slower than most glaciers. This might be changing though, Samsung is used to a 6 to 12 month tech window and might try to bring Harmon Kardon back from the dead and do 2.1/2.2 and HT receivers correctly. It could happen! Not saying it will--but Behringer is looking at HT so we have two new companies about to go at it. Berry already has pictures of HT gear on its site but no information--probably bumping up the performance now that Sammy got thrown into the tank.

Looking forward to the impending battle between LABGruppen and Crown--errr, Behringer and Samsung. At least we are living in interesting times...I think.
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post #66 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
Wish I could answer that for you--makes no sense to me. Of course, even "7.2" channel AVRs don't have two bass management channels for the ".2"...just parallel jacks so you can't set different delays to get your bass managment correct.

However, this is audio so usable features move slower than most glaciers. This might be changing though, Samsung is used to a 6 to 12 month tech window and might try to bring Harmon Kardon back from the dead and do 2.1/2.2 and HT receivers correctly. It could happen! Not saying it will--but Behringer is looking at HT so we have two new companies about to go at it. Berry already has pictures of HT gear on its site but no information--probably bumping up the performance now that Sammy got thrown into the tank.

Looking forward to the impending battle between LABGruppen and Crown--errr, Behringer and Samsung. At least we are living in interesting times...I think.
If Samsung decides to invest heavily in the electronics side of Harman I'll be pleasantly surprised. With the crazy Lexicon bowling pin speaker that Harman demoed at CES and some of the stuff they have in the professional monitor segment the company clearly has some very advanced DSP in the arsenal, they just need to apply it to the HT environment and bring back a line of boundary-pushing HK receivers (plus Lexicon Pre/Pros with fancier DACs and whatnot at 10x the price for those with money to burn).
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post #67 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 11:42 PM
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I wasn't getting my ideas across, I've been insulted multiple times, my opinions belittled, and a general tone of superiority. It's really not how I want to spend my spare time. My opinions are an effort to help others, I'm not seeing much of that on this site.
Don't worry, you're not the only one he(?) has done it to. I had some questions in a thread late last year and his(?) responses put me off posting on this site. I just lurk now
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post #68 of 266 Old 03-06-2017, 11:44 PM
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If Samsung decides to invest heavily in the electronics side of Harman I'll be pleasantly surprised. With the crazy Lexicon bowling pin speaker that Harman demoed at CES and some of the stuff they have in the professional monitor segment the company clearly has some very advanced DSP in the arsenal, they just need to apply it to the HT environment and bring back a line of boundary-pushing HK receivers (plus Lexicon Pre/Pros with fancier DACs and whatnot at 10x the price for those with money to burn).
I lived in S. Korea about 15 years ago, I was amazed how HUGE Hyundai and Samsung actually were. The Samsung tank was really cool--yeah, they make tanks, military hardware, ships, skyscrappers and trucks. That Samsung banner is 80 companies including medical equipment, a Samsung research hospital, robotics and all sorts of things. They are 17% of South Korea's GNP and burned 14 Billion in 2014 just on R&D.

I tell ya, Sammy won't allow Harmon's 30 companies to remain and they will chop that down quickly. JBL will stay as a brand and Sam specifically called them out as their pro division will be heavily invested in. I'd say Revel, Lexicon, Soundcraft and all that little stuff will be absorbed into JBL or JBL Professional. They need a name for their consumer audio so JBL and HK would make sense so if I made the Lexicon shake weight, I'd be really paying attention. I really wonder about all the toys Shawn Olive has been playing with in Samsung's new 1 Billion dollar research center in California. This has been going on for two years and Shawn used to be the R&D guy at Harmon before he left for Samsung a few years back. Now that Sammy bought out Shawn's old boss--things should really start moving.

My crystal ball is cloudy but Sammy competes by innovation, they do it quickly with rapid roll outs so things will change in the future. You can bet Yamaha and Behringer (Music Group) are probably putting in a bit of R&D overtime because they know full well what Samsung did to Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba and all those other former Japanese heavies.

I think CES will get a heck of a lot more interesting in these coming years
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post #69 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 05:19 AM
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The full range system is naturally rolling off as you start rolling in the sub woofer. No different than any crossover.


Your 'natural' rolling off applies only to the spl of the sound coming from your speaker but not it's ability to convert power into heat.


You can try an experiment with a frequency generator or a synth that goes really low.
Force a lower frequency than that 'natural roll off' and you can see your woofer cone flap about with little sound.
Until it bottoms out with ugly noises or starting to smell funny and stops moving altogether.
A true engineer will wait for a total system failure while the ignorant audiophile will get scared into shutting down the experiment prematurely.


You fail to understand why crossing over is a far better option than just simply fill in where the main speaker lf checks out.
For the best possible blend you want at least a flat response down to at least one octave below (and above!) the crossover frequency.
This is true and best practice for every crossover frequency be it for tweeters, squawkers and woofers alike.


My mains are good down to 33Hz. What I do is that I correct my mains lf response flat down to 20Hz, at moderate signal levels, using rew and a calibrated Umik.
This requires eq with unhealthy gain but that isn't a problem because I apply a 40Hz hi pass at 48dB/Octave. This gives the best possible sub/mains integration with the added benefit that the linear excursion range of my mains doesn't get eaten up by a woofer cone and a passive radiator that is flapping about without making much noise.
As others have pointed out: this reduces distortion across the entire woofers frequency range considerably.
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post #70 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 07:26 AM
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[QUOTE=Scotth3886;51225497]A few things I will never do. 1) anything that says digital. 2) anything that says Crown or has anything to do with Harmon.

Seriously?
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post #71 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 07:52 AM
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I like 60hz for my mains that play down to 39hz but, not sure if there is really a huge difference vs 80hz.

I do know that at 60hz my AVR runs 10 degrees F hotter than at 80 hz!
My experience mirrors yours. I was experimenting from 80Hz to 100Hz. The difference was small, but, for now, I have them crossed over @ 100Hz, however, my subs (4), have 10" cones. Personally, I think with smaller your subs, the higher you may be able to cross them over (large 15" subwoofers don't make good woofers). I used to have a large 15" sub with satellites. BOY I had a very hard time integrating them together.
I think it would have been fun if I had messed with 2 large subs (12"), and 2 smaller subs (8"). Crossed the larger subs @ 80Hz, then low passed the smaller subs @ 80Hz, and high passed them @ 250Hz. Something like that. Wish I had thought about it at the time, would have been interesting.

Anyway, to the OP, there really is no right or wrong answer. You really do have to experiment for yourself. I fortunately have an app for my AVR where I can switch crossovers on the fly, and then listen.

Also, when I experimented with crossovers, I turned all channels off except the 2 LFEs, then listened to some tunes. Wanted to cross over as high as I could without sounding boomy. Started sounding a bit boomy over 100Hz, for me. Like I said, I still haven't decided between 80 & 100Hz. So, 80Hz probably is the correct crossover for most people, I'm just too stubborn and had to experiment for myself. lol

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post #72 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 08:38 AM
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A few things I will never do. 1) anything that says digital. 2) anything that says Crown or has anything to do with Harmon.

Seriously?

1) in the one system out of the four, although there is digital there too, but I want one analog path, butt to nut. The other three, not the case.
2) absolutely
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post #73 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 09:06 AM
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1) in the one system out of the four, although there is digital there too, but I want one analog path, butt to nut. The other three, not the case.
2) absolutely
Well, the Crown hey day, when they were considered among the 'high end', was slightly before my time. However, I knew a guy who owned some Crown components (I couldn't tell you the model numbers), that I remember sounded remarkably good, for the time, I'm sure. Since then, I have read horrible comments on Crown stuff.
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post #74 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 09:19 AM
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Well, the Crown hey day, when they were considered among the 'high end', was slightly before my time...
It wasn't before my time. The Crown DC300 was a workhorse/pro-amp. Like most solid state amps of that time they were not that sweet sounding and were used out of necessity (robust power). As soon as other manufacturers started making big amps, the Crowns were tossed aside except for pro use.
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post #75 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 09:19 AM
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See post 53 and 54.
There is a lot of passive aggressive behavior on this forum. And a lot of closed minds.
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post #76 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 10:43 AM
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Well, the Crown hey day, when they were considered among the 'high end', was slightly before my time. However, I knew a guy who owned some Crown components (I couldn't tell you the model numbers), that I remember sounded remarkably good, for the time, I'm sure. Since then, I have read horrible comments on Crown stuff.

The 700 and 800 series reel to reel, yeah, plenty of experience long long ago with those, and they were damn fine, but amps from the DC300 up, NO thanks. The were the first, or one of the first, IIRC, high power solid state amps. I don't remember when I had these, but it was during the time I had the XG8 Mk2. They were highly regarded during the day, but we really didn't have anything else until the Phase700b came along, and although way more power, and I think better sound, again IIRC, but I didn't care all that much for those either. I've heard their modern stuff just a few times and no thanks.

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post #77 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 10:46 AM
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It wasn't before my time. The Crown DC300 was a workhorse/pro-amp. Like most solid state amps of that time they were not that sweet sounding and were used out of necessity (robust power). As soon as other manufacturers started making big amps, the Crowns were tossed aside except for pro use.

Yep and yep. They'd rip your head off with the Dayton Wrights, which could beam like crazy and were pretty hot themselves.

I think my order was: first the ELS-57s, then I wanted loud so JBL L100, L45s and L300, then a friend saved me from JBL and I went for my first pair of Tympani I-Us, then the Dayton Wrights then back to Maggies for 1-Cs and 1-Ds. Several cone type speakers in there also and the KLH9s, but I don't recall what order.

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post #78 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 10:54 AM
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The 700 and 800 series reel to reel, yeah, plenty of experience long long ago with those, and they were damn fine, but amps from the DC300 up, NO thanks. The were the first, or one of the first, IIRC, high power solid state amps. I don't remember when I had these, but it was during the time I had the XG8 Mk2. They were highly regarded during the day, but we really didn't have anything else until the Phase700b came along, and although way more power, and I think better sound, again IIRC, but I didn't care all that much for those either. I've heard their modern stuff just a few times and no thanks.
Yeah, I was just a kid in the early 70s. I probably heard him play some rock music LOUD and thought they were 'badass'. They may have been older tube amps as well. I just can't remember. lol Now, my father had a Pioneer reel to reel player that I had BUNCHES of fun with.
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post #79 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 11:00 AM
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Yeah, I was just a kid in the early 70s. I probably heard him play some rock music LOUD and thought they were 'badass'. They may have been older tube amps as well. I just can't remember. lol Now, my father had a Pioneer reel to reel player that I had BUNCHES of fun with.

There just wasn't much available during those days other than the Crown for high(er) power SS amps. We used them in the studio along with the Crown RTRs, which I did like.
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post #80 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 11:00 AM
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My experience mirrors yours. I was experimenting from 80Hz to 100Hz. The difference was small, but, for now, I have them crossed over @ 100Hz, however, my subs (4), have 10" cones. Personally, I think with smaller your subs, the higher you may be able to cross them over (large 15" subwoofers don't make good woofers). I used to have a large 15" sub with satellites. BOY I had a very hard time integrating them together.
I've always owned Velodyne 15" sealed servo subs and really never had much of a problem with blending at all to be honest, (ULD15 and now DD15).

But as you say, I've never had them crossing over above 80hz.

The servo, once you turn the sub on, makes the woofer as rigid as a drumhead, so maybe that comes into play.

IDK, I'm no engineer.

The ULD15 with B&W CM1 Concept 90's, (5" sealed main driver), and now the DD15 with small Usher V602 towers.

Sadly Velodyne service has gone in the crapper so no more Velos for me should the DD15 fail and not be repairable as the servo amp in the ULD15 did.

In my secondary music room my old NAD 7250PE stereo receiver was hooked to a sub with speaker level connections and blending that little sub to the main bookshelves was not satisfactory but then again it was a cheap sub that eventually failed and had to be replaced.

Now with the same receiver I have put a simple subwoofer crossover box between the pre outs/main ins and the blending is excellent with RCA connections to the two 8" subs which cost less than $200 total...and the results are just fine.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #81 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 11:01 AM
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I'm in the blend camp, running your mains full range. I seem to get better results that way. The subwoofer is not supposed to replace your main speakers woofers, it's supposed to operate below where your mains quit. I've tried both but I have never cutoff the mains unless my amp just couldn't drive the mains and I was trying to get more SPL with inadequate power.

Btw, are you going to Axpona? I think you'd find a few like minded folks there. I trying to put together a meet up of the four or five audiophile types who are here on AVS.
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Now with the same receiver I have put a simple subwoofer crossover box between the pre outs/main ins and the blending is excellent with RCA connections to the two 8" subs which cost less than $200 total...and the results are just fine.
For me, for music only, I think multiple, smaller subs, is the way to go. Especially, if you have small satellites and need to set the X-over higher (120Hz'ish).
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post #83 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 11:13 AM
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[quote=Scotth3886;51306689]
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1) in the one system out of the four, although there is digital there too, but I want one analog path, butt to nut. The other three, not the case.
2) absolutely
Your strong dismissal of (2) concerning Harman and Crown is misguided, in my opinion. My involvement in this hobby go back to the mid to late 60's (AR3a, Shure V15, Dynaco) and I have always tried to keep up with the best that technology can offer. I currently have 3 Crown I-Tech 5000 HD amps (6 x 1250 watts) driving JBL M2 Reference Monitors (bi-amped with active DSP crossover) along with a JBL Sub18; all from Harman. I can afford any system (Vandersteen 7, Revel Salon 2, Kef Blade, B&W 800D3, Mark Levinson, etc) but chose this relatively inexpensive setup based upon my research and listening to local high end systems. I have judiciously installed room acoustical treatment, and located my sub and main speakers based upon REW measurements and hours of critical listening. The resulting sound stage, dynamic range, and transient response is literally staggering. This digital (high rez only), outside the box, Crown class D, JBL horn system is the best my intelligence and experience allow me to do. In all my years of collecting systems I have never had such emotional involvement with music, and just jaw dropping experience with a stereo system.

Why not give it a try?
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post #84 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 11:27 AM
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I can afford any system (Vandersteen 7, Revel Salon 2, Kef Blade, B&W 800D3, Mark Levinson, etc) but chose this relatively inexpensive setup based upon my research and listening to local high end systems.
For another thread I did some math on how much I spend today on this hobby vs in my early 20s relative to my net worth.

Back then, in today's money, my music system was about $2500.

Today my net worth is about 150 times higher but my two sound systems would cost about $8000 to replace.

Don't need to spend huge bucks to get a very satisfying result.

Mind you, I live in a 2000 square foot house; it if was a 5000 square foot house things might be a bit different!

Geoff A. J., California
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post #85 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 12:01 PM
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Your strong dismissal of (2) concerning Harman and Crown is misguided, in my opinion. My involvement in this hobby go back to the mid to late 60's (AR3a, Shure V15, Dynaco) and I have always tried to keep up with the best that technology can offer. I currently have 3 Crown I-Tech 5000 HD amps (6 x 1250 watts) driving JBL M2 Reference Monitors (bi-amped with active DSP crossover) along with a JBL Sub18; all from Harman. I can afford any system (Vandersteen 7, Revel Salon 2, Kef Blade, B&W 800D3, Mark Levinson, etc) but chose this relatively inexpensive setup based upon my research and listening to local high end systems. I have judiciously installed room acoustical treatment, and located my sub and main speakers based upon REW measurements and hours of critical listening. The resulting sound stage, dynamic range, and transient response is literally staggering. This digital (high rez only), outside the box, Crown class D, JBL horn system is the best my intelligence and experience allow me to do. In all my years of collecting systems I have never had such emotional involvement with music, and just jaw dropping experience with a stereo system.

Why not give it a try?

"concerning Harman and Crown is misguided, in my opinion"

Good, you have your opinion, and mine differs. If Crown and JBL in my home, I'd stop listening to music.

And believe me, the vast vast majority of folks won't like mine either or the PITA it takes to get them right. So I don't intend to come of as insulting, but we have vastly different tastes.

I started with EL-57s in 1959.

Enjoy your system!

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post #86 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 12:03 PM
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[quote=gajCA;51311545]
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For another thread I did some math on how much I spend today on this hobby vs in my early 20s relative to my net worth.

Back then, in today's money, my music system was about $2500.

Today my net worth is about 150 times higher but my two sound systems would cost about $8000 to replace.

Don't need to spend huge bucks to get a very satisfying result.

Mind you, I live in a 2000 square foot house; it if was a 5000 square foot house things might be a bit different!

And in inflation adjusted dollars, I think I have the cheapest system (speakers and amp) that I've ever had. So I'm being a very good boi this time.
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post #87 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 12:39 PM
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I started with EL-57s in 1959.
I think you mean ESL-57s? Anyway, THAT was the speaker that launched me into audiophilism. I was in a Drum & Bugle Corps that was based in the Chicago area back in '77. One day, I walked into a high(er) end stereo store (couldn't tell you where or the name) and they had a pair of Quad ESLs there (can't remember the model#) and they were kind enough to demonstrate them. Smart on their part, because, I've been a hi-fi nut ever since.
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post #88 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 12:50 PM
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I think you mean ESL-57s? Anyway, THAT was the speaker that launched me into audiophilism. I was in a Drum & Bugle Corps that was based in the Chicago area back in '77. One day, I walked into a high(er) end stereo store (couldn't tell you where or the name) and they had a pair of Quad ESLs there (can't remember the model#) and they were kind enough to demonstrate them. Smart on their part, because, I've been a hi-fi nut ever since.

"mean ESL-57s"

Exactly. I use it both ways. EL-57s and ELS-57s. I think have used it both ways in the thread (post 77), but we're definitely talking about the same speakers. And that's what got me started into this mysterious world of audiophilism that we keep arguing about so much on these pages. I think living with these in my formative years changed the manner in which I hear or perceive. In my 57 years of really being into this hobby, there are just a few years when I didn't have ESLs, but still had planar dipoles and that being Maggies. Actually I started to be interested in this stuff around 1954.

This is interesting, triple stacked EL-57s with what appears to be a pair of Futterman OTLs. Interesting for 60 yr old speakers.


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post #89 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 01:38 PM
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Btw, are you going to Axpona? I think you'd find a few like minded folks there. I trying to put together a meet up of the four or five audiophile types who are here on AVS.
I've been to the Newport show a couple of times in the last few years. I think I had my fill of Hi-Fi shows for a while but thanx for the invite.

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post #90 of 266 Old 03-07-2017, 01:39 PM
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I've been to the Newport show a couple of times in the last few years. I think I had my fill of Hi-Fi shows for a while but thanx for the invite.

I may also be out there to that one this year.
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