Speaker Cable Battle: Chord Epic Twin v/s QED Genesis Silver Spiral - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 423 Old 04-20-2018, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by funky54 View Post
“Some” combinations, due to synergy, respond very well to by-wiring or try-wiring. Other beautifully made wonderfully sounding speakers do not respond to it at all. Most of it has to do with their crossover design or the lack there of.
I always thought any passive xover would be "destroying" sound quality.

I always thought, if you wanted to accurately reproduce a music band you needed to record each instrument onto its own track, then recreate band instrument positions with one or more speakers to cover the instrument freq spectrum, then playback each track into its dedicated speaker version of the instrument ((via amp), but then never use a passive xover, always use specialized high speed low noise DSP to get the correct freq to the correct speaker(of the instrument set) via dedicated amp per speaker.

Can a woofer mid and tweeter all have amps flowing through them at the same time if all the components are in one speaker box using passive xover(s)? The electrical signal doesnt, so how could the speakers, etc.
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post #122 of 423 Old 04-20-2018, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Denon_Kid View Post
I always thought any passive xover would be "destroying" sound quality.
Not always!

When I build/measure speakers I "cheat" and use active bi-amping to get measurements. Being a lazy slob, I connect it up and measure various crossover points, filter steepness and putz around with delay. A buddy of mine had a pair of fully horn loaded speakers from the '60s---can't model that mess in software so I ripped out the long dried out crossover and went active. The idea was to get the best sound out of them we could and were successful--he said they never sounded better after I put in a 12dB XO to replace the stock 6dB cap and coil stocker, resealed the entire horn path and replaces some really funky parts.

Did they sound amazing active bi-amped? No... they had a nasty, edgy sound because the horn on top really made a mess of things. I was able to get the bass improved (seals) improve the midrange (steeper crossover filters) but the highs were as they were. Throwing in the passive XO once I had it built made very little difference in the sound. I remeasured passive VS active at the same point and active was slightly better by the measurements. Basically, it was not worth going active and when the nasty response over 8KHz was factored in--best to throw money at it there. The owner is happy with them, he is blessed by being an old guitarists and can't hear over 8 KHz anyway--the silver lining in the cloud. He uses it with an AVR that has PEQ, that really helped out so always an option even with "lowly passive" crossovers.

So active bi-amping is not the golden egg, it helps but sometimes it is better to go passive with better drivers. It is all a balancing act.

No, I did not build a passive XO for one speaker and an active XO for the other one and do a blind A/B test on them. Probably would not get accurate results when using speakers that sound bad to you. Not everyday you get to refurb a speaker that is physically older than you...pretty cool stuff and he never went with my recommendations: replace the horn and/or replace that compression driver. Sometimes owners of speakers are like owners of classic cars, they want them "stock" although the crossover is not stock--at least you can't see it!

So if you ever get suckered into repairing/refurbing really old speakers without specs--active bi-amping is the fastest way to do it. The owner can "hear" his babies before the first impedance measurement is made. The Crown XTi1002 works well for this, set the limiters down really low-- 10 watts max, play around with different crossover points, different filters and you can store up to 29 of them in the memory. If they want to know how well PEQ works with their vintage stuff, it also allows for that so they can physically hear what it will do and what it can't do.

Another way to test is to change the filter steepness to measure/hear if it improves the performance. Sometimes speaker companies will skrimp on the crossover parts to save bucks in a place most people never see. If you use the stock specs and notice a major difference in sound quality or other measurements, check the passive components and look for any short cuts. 22 AWG inductors are a lot cheaper than 18 AWG then multiply that by 10,000 for the speaker run for that year. The CEO gets the Hawaii trip for Christmas!

My only warning with active bi-amping is this: you really need to know what you are doing, what the drivers can handle and triple check everything. A good tip to prevent dome tweeter damage is to throw a capacitor inline with the tweeter--say it kicks in at 1 KHz instead of the 3 KHz active crossover point. That cap will help prevent magic smoke if you screw up the settings (or your cat changes the settings) and it absorbs any turn on thump/turn off thump the amp can produce. Your amp might have soft start and soft shut down but it might not work during a power failure. The cap is cheap insurance against this happening and it has no effect on the sound when done properly.

Passive bi-amping, bi-wiring etc.? Never did that, I go active when need be so prefer to do it correctly the first time.

Last edited by 18Hurts; 04-20-2018 at 02:00 PM.
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post #123 of 423 Old 04-20-2018, 02:56 PM
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......
My only warning with active bi-amping is this: you really need to know what you are doing, what the drivers can handle and triple check everything. A good tip to prevent dome tweeter damage is to throw a capacitor inline with the tweeter--say it kicks in at 1 KHz instead of the 3 KHz active crossover point. .....
Yeah, I too learned that the hard way! Got my channels mixed up during sweeps and fed LF pink noise to the tweeter channels.
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post #124 of 423 Old 04-20-2018, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Denon_Kid View Post
Why would reflections that cause odd inferences and reverb be any good.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/scie...aths-1.2277957

Any sound altered by the room is "bad". Your ear should hear exactly what the speaker is producing, aka "flat" from speaker to ear.

Just as we want a speaker to be flat (in = out), we would want that to our ear (speaker out = ear in).
Any room that is a plain wall box is just horrible for acoustics.

Well maybe the bad room acoustics can be corrected by using special silver lined twisty cable?
You could always set your speakers up outdoors and see if you like that performance, no walls, ceiling but should have soil ground, not concrete.
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post #125 of 423 Old 04-20-2018, 03:30 PM
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It’s like I’m told “forget your common sense”.

A man walks outside and says, “cool, the sky is blue”

And some science nerd says, “prove it, i’ve Done some calculations and the sky is not blue” “it’s a placebo of reflective light that.....


Let me enjoy my sky, you go play with your calculator if that makes you happy. But blue is blue.
Common sense is often useful. Until it isn't. Common sense isn't applicable to everything. It has limitations for where it can be useful. Not all aspects of reality are reflected by personal experiences. Or the collective experiences of a group.

For example, common sense would tell us that the earth is flat. Why? Because no matter how far you travel by foot, horse, bike, car, etc., in any direction, your personal experience would strongly suggest that the earth is basically a flat surface. With the exceptions of mountains and valleys, we experience the world as a flat plane. It wasn't until we used other means of analysis outside of our common experiences of the world, that we learned the truth.
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post #126 of 423 Old 04-20-2018, 03:38 PM
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If under a sighted A/B test people could hear the difference between cables, but they could not hear the difference under a blind test, it would be common sense to ignore the blind test results? I believe you are being told the exact opposite in fact.
I don't think he is interested in science and facts unless it supports his belief and perceptions.
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post #127 of 423 Old 04-20-2018, 03:56 PM
 
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I don't think he is interested in science and facts unless it supports his belief and perceptions.
That is what I've seen on forums time and time again. Makes one wonder what motivates them to do that.
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post #128 of 423 Old 04-20-2018, 04:21 PM
 
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The issue people are taking is that unless these A/B tests you performed were double blind tests with large enough sample sizes, the results are unreliable.
I have no opinion about loudspeaker cables since I have never done any testing either long term or as a participant in a blind test. But I would like to know how many DBT or ABX tests with large sample sizes have been conducted testing such cables and that indicated zero audible differences.
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post #129 of 423 Old 04-20-2018, 08:08 PM
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You could always set your speakers up outdoors and see if you like that performance, no walls, ceiling but should have soil ground, not concrete.
Funny you say that. I have speakers outdoors with nothing around, they sound rather nice if you are sitting close.

I guess what I was saying, if we test flatness of a speaker in chamber and they play that same music back through same speaker but in a std box room, the sound has been altered due to reflections/reverb, etc. I am not arguing whether or not the reverb is pleasing or not, but fact is, reflections/reverb are components of propagation that alter the end wave. The speaker produces flat reproduction at cone surfaces, but that sound is then altered as it radiates out, etc.

And then to wrap this back around to cables, most box rooms do not have the correct reverb ratio, thus I think that is a major metric when trying to say I hear diffs between cables. I think you would need major attenuation, compression, or delays in some parts of the electrical signal in the cable to be able to hear that diff in any room, even rooms that have perfect reverb ratio. This is why amplification is also important, because if the listening volume is say 20k watts then a small change in say amplitude of the 4-8kHz range in the cable would likely be heard. This is why I mentioned earlier, if a speaker was very very sensitive, say 500dB 1w/1m, then even a small magnet moving in the room would interfere with that speaker motor.

The argument all depends on many many factors. Generic non-special non $500k listening rooms, 99% of all speakers, "low" SPL listening volumes (which is 99.99% of all home theater stuff), cables should not matter.

And even under the special cases where the setup "should" produce an audible diff, 99.9999% of the people wont be able to hear a diff just because of the problems their ears have.

So sure, if someone says they can hear the diff on their $100k setup they have in specialized room, then perhaps that is the 0.0001% person.

Like others have said, if "you" hear the diff then that's all that matters. For me, 14c/ft 14ga zip cord Sun-Sat at 7am-9pm at HD or Lowe's does my ears just fine. Thus it's not really valid to ask others "copper twin-tastic or silver twisty quad-couple cable?" because only the person asking can make that decision, hence, buy them all, compare for yourself, leave one set connected, return the rest or hang them as conversation piece.

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post #130 of 423 Old 04-20-2018, 10:13 PM
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Funny you say that. I have speakers outdoors with nothing around, they sound rather nice if you are sitting close.
Yes, you get the direct, on axis soundwaves only. Similar to you sitting a few feet from a computer speaker. Anything performed in a studio for recording or live concerts or other performances inside s 6 walled room has reflections that we have been accustomed from the start. That is what we prefer to sound good.

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I guess what I was saying, if we test flatness of a speaker in chamber and they play that same music back through same speaker but in a std box room, the sound has been altered due to reflections/reverb, etc. I am not arguing whether or not the reverb is pleasing or not, but fact is, reflections/reverb are components of propagation that alter the end wave. The speaker produces flat reproduction at cone surfaces, but that sound is then altered as it radiates out, etc.
Not really the case. While the speakers are designed to measure flat and tested flat in that chamber just adds to the accuracy in a room. Recording mics pick up such reflections and the engineer alters it to his or the performers taste through speakers in a room, not in that chamber. If you have a mic by each instrument, hardly possible in an orchestra, you still mix it on a console, played back in a room with all the reflections.

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And then to wrap this back around to cables, most box rooms do not have the correct reverb ratio, thus I think that is a major metric when trying to say I hear diffs between cables.
No, that is not why you think you hear differences but due to subconscious biases uncontrolled for. Just forget the reverb ratios, etc.


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I think you would need major attenuation, compression, or delays in some parts of the electrical signal in the cable to be able to hear that diff in any room, even rooms that have perfect reverb ratio. This is why amplification is also important, because if the listening volume is say 20k watts then a small change in say amplitude of the 4-8kHz range in the cable would likely be heard. This is why I mentioned earlier, if a speaker was very very sensitive, say 500dB 1w/1m, then even a small magnet moving in the room would interfere with that speaker motor.

The argument all depends on many many factors. Generic non-special non $500k listening rooms, 99% of all speakers, "low" SPL listening volumes (which is 99.99% of all home theater stuff), cables should not matter.

And even under the special cases where the setup "should" produce an audible diff, 99.9999% of the people wont be able to hear a diff just because of the problems their ears have.

So sure, if someone says they can hear the diff on their $100k setup they have in specialized room, then perhaps that is the 0.0001% person.

Like others have said, if "you" hear the diff then that's all that matters. For me, 14c/ft 14ga zip cord Sun-Sat at 7am-9pm at HD or Lowe's does my ears just fine. Thus it's not really valid to ask others "copper twin-tastic or silver twisty quad-couple cable?" because only the person asking can make that decision, hence, buy them all, compare for yourself, leave one set connected, return the rest or hang them as conversation piece.
Boy, you been drinking the wrong coolaid.
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post #131 of 423 Old 04-20-2018, 11:31 PM
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Funny you say that. I have speakers outdoors with nothing around, they sound rather nice if you are sitting close.
If you sit close, you are negating much of the difference between listening indoors vs outdoors, as now the direct sound is dominating in either case.
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post #132 of 423 Old 04-21-2018, 07:08 AM
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@CharlesJ - I drink no coolaid

Some of your reply didnt make sense to me. I am not saying because of room reverb (or the ratio) is why one can hear an audio diff from cables, I am saying the room acoustics are just one of many sound altering things that any small diff (if it actually existed) would be masked my many things, including the crappy acoustics of a std box room. Asa example, if a "better" cable made a speaker produce +0.01 SPL at a specific frequency and the wall curtains absorb some of that to make the overall increase +0.001 SPL, the SPL diff is not "heard", etc.

I am willing to allow cable diff claims using only equipment. Whatever great mics are being used to test speaker flatness, move that same mic into a listening room and play the same music & settings over and over, but switch speaker cables, lets see what the mic says. Such testing does not prove that any mic diff would be recognizable by human ear, but at least the cable claims could possibly be documented at the vert last step, sound waves moving out to the listener (mic), etc.
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post #133 of 423 Old 04-21-2018, 07:18 AM
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Common sense is often useful. Until it isn't. Common sense isn't applicable to everything. It has limitations for where it can be useful. Not all aspects of reality are reflected by personal experiences. Or the collective experiences of a group.

For example, common sense would tell us that the earth is flat. Why? Because no matter how far you travel by foot, horse, bike, car, etc., in any direction, your personal experience would strongly suggest that the earth is basically a flat surface. With the exceptions of mountains and valleys, we experience the world as a flat plane. It wasn't until we used other means of analysis outside of our common experiences of the world, that we learned the truth.
Ok, here’s some science.

I listen to it with combination A

I listen to it with combination B

I’m very sure that this time I like B best because of these reasons... so I go through the exercise several times on different days with different sources to revisit. I still like B best. Science won.


Many times in my heart I “want” one combination to win... maybe I like the price or maybe I like the esthetics. But nope.
Sometimes what I preconceived to win, does.


Why is it I can have a few friends over, listen to a combination and everyone regardless of their preconceived notions agrees a particular combination now sounds this way or that. Why is it I can change things at the rack without them seeing or knowing and they still choose consistently?

There’s your science. And I didn’t use a math book or calculator. Problem solved.
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post #134 of 423 Old 04-21-2018, 07:33 AM
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My buddy (a detailed oriented technician trained in advanced calibration and network engineering) thinks Audioholics YouTube is like law. He virtually believes them to be infallible. They say speaker Wire and interconnects sound the same. They say their math and experience proves it... He firmly believed.

I took some speaker wire to his place. He had two different amps, two different sets of towers. All completely different and of good quality. The beginning of “HiFi”. (Snell D, Monitor Audio Silvers) We hooked up.. sounded the same to both of us, we tried again swapping gear.. all sounded the same. We spent about 8 hours that Saturday and bi-wiring, audioquest, lamp chord everything sounded the same. Really no difference.

He said “well we debunked that one”

A month later we went to my office. We were A & B’ing several high end speakers. After an hour or two we pretty much both liked on set of towers Best with a particular amp. (Maggie 1.7’s) Just for kicks I went back to a set we ruled out (watt puppy’s) but I bi-wired it with lamp chord. Suddenly we both heard a huge difference. Way more detail, Bass was “stiffer” more percussive. (Same amp)

So we went back to the audio quest Wire we had been using and it went back to sounding dull on the bottom and overly bright, metallic on the top.

So next we used the towers we previously preferred (Maggie’s) but connected it bi-wired (same amp) we couldn’t tell a difference. It was great, but not as great as the bi-wiring with the “other” towers.

We didn’t have a calculator, but our ears made it pretty clear. He now knows as fact the Wire type, and configuration can change the sonic foot print.

You believe whatever you want. I’m too busy listening to great music to try and quantify what is obvious with a math formula.

I know with absolute certainty that my own Acarrion System speaker are completely different sounding with jumpers versus tri-wiring. It’s fact for me.

The try-wired lamp chord connected to my Alon IV’s is better sounding than my audioquest speaker Wire.

The same lamp chord bi-wired to my Kef Q100’s connected to my little SET amp dont sound as good as the Audioquest connected there with them. It’s just the way it is.

Last edited by funky54; 04-21-2018 at 07:45 AM.
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post #135 of 423 Old 04-21-2018, 07:52 AM
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There are some interesting opinions on cables and weather they are snack oil or not. Since most people reading this are likely to own some type of audio system or are in the process of putting one together I think it's a fair question to ask what cables to use in their system or their future system. After all the speakers do have to be connected somehow unless they are wireless but that is a different subject.

When I see prices of speaker cable for $12,000 to $15,000 I have to cry foul. Seriously are they going to make "that" much improvement over something that mear mortals are willing to pay for?

I have a friend who is OCD about his audio systems. He has tried countless cables form copper to silver to silver plated copper and combinations of the aforementioned. He brings them to our home regularly as we have a completely dedicated room for A/V built from the ground up treated etc. We have spent many hours mixing and matching cables. For the fun of it I put together a pair of cables from wire and connectors from Home Depot 12 Ga and an astronomic price of about $12- $15 for a bi-wire pair just to see if there is indeed much difference.

Short answer, yes. The use of his silver plated copper 12Ga bi-wire had a very clear advantage. Music was clean, clear and more dynamic. Even my wife notice the improvement and she had no idea what cable was what. He is going to bring over a different version today and I'm looking forward to the experiment. He also has silver cables and they also were superior but more costly.

So in short do cables make a difference yes but common sense should be used. The best anyone can do is try them in your own system and make a decision. With that in mind I do not believe any piece of wire is worth the price of a used Honda.

Gary

Have fun with music and HT

Gary
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post #136 of 423 Old 04-21-2018, 08:01 AM
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@funky54 - If you hear a diff than that means one of two things. You think you hear a diff, or you actually hear a diff. It can be proven by scoping the speaker terminals. Since the speaker is the same and only the cable changed, the scope must show a diff on the speaker terminals. If it doesn't then its more likely that you think you heard a diff. If the electrical signal does not change in either freq domain (freq and amplitude) or time domain (delays) then its not possible for the same speaker to produce different sound cable to cable, etc.

In your case, you are working the claim in other direction, "I hear a diff, but now need to use my test gear to find out why or prove I didn't actually hear a diff", etc.
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post #137 of 423 Old 04-21-2018, 08:02 AM
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@CharlesJ Asa example, if a "better" cable made a speaker produce +0.01 SPL at a specific frequency and the wall curtains absorb some of that to make the overall increase +0.001 SPL, the SPL diff is not "heard", etc.
To make an improvement of 0.01dB requires a higher guage cable--to lower the resistance. Basically, you gain 0.01dB of SPL because of lower power loss. This can easily be measured on the bench with a good ohm meter or even calculated with math. There are charts that tell you what dB loss you get from specific wire guages at a specific length and they are commonly used when building those massive arena sound systems. Most of those systems are calculated with power loss, not dB so as long as the voltage drop is less than 5 percent you are done.

Since you brought up 0.01dB, can human hearing be accurate with differences that low? Ask the medical people, the answer is no. They have played around with pure test tones in chambers with people that had little hearing loss to determine the limits. In very specific curcumstances, we can hear differences of less than 1dB with test tones, special rooms and so on. However, when it is music then the human response is dulled because of the much great amount of information processed.

If you have ever used sensitive test equipment, you'll see utter acoustic chaos. Luckily the meter is much more sensitive than our hearing (depending on frequency) and the brain ignores much of the echoes and reflections. Test microphones don't so it is best to fully understand what readings matter and what don't. Don't attempt to get anything down to 0.01dB in a regular room, never mind rooms have outside noise coming in, the HVAC fans are blowing, humidity changes change sound and everything else.

The cable people, well--pull your crossover out of the speaker and realize power from the cable goes through those very thin leads on capacitors, the inductor wire can be 15 to 20 guage and very long not to mention at least 30 feet of 28 guage wire that makes up the voice coil of your midrange (subs can have voice coil wire over 100 feet long)

Put it in perspective, you generally will not see people that design and build their own speakers use audiophile cables. Years ago I was asked about speaker wire, I knew electronics but the guy asking did not. He blew $3 on an audio magazine so was invested in his views...he also owned monster cable which did not help. The question was asked because he was going to reconfigure his system and needed much longer wire which kicked in his sense of "I better check this first" which is normally considered a good thing.

After our testing that took place over a weekend, he learned the answer and purchased whatever guage power cable to get the run length correct. He was very happy, the cable he used was white so it blended into the wall paint. For most people, I suggest using 12 or 14 guage so if/when they ever do longer runs, connect 2 or 4 ohm subwoofers they can simply use the same wire as their system changes. 14 guage is overkill for a 10 foot run with 8 ohm speakers but it might be the perfect length for a 2 or 4 ohm sub hooked to a powerful PA amp in the future.

Here is more information than you ever wanted to know about the speaker wire subject. It explains how electricity works, how they test, what the results are and what matters. It also explains the rise in marketing wire, it did not exist for the first 50 years of audio. Of course, back then audio was for theaters, schools and professional use so there was no market.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Plenty of engineers in that link, Roger Russell was a big wig at McIntosh. Enjoy the read, he has additional links if such things like amp damping and other topics grab your attention.
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post #138 of 423 Old 04-21-2018, 08:10 AM
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@18Hurts - I think you are reiterating my point.

I gave a bogus "as example", etc. Lets say ear can hear a diff of +0.01SPL, but curtains attenuate that down to say +0.001SPL where the ear cannot ascertain that diff, hence, although the speaker SPL went up, the ear heard no diff.

That's just a generic example of how so many other factors can actually mask out any claimed improvements a specific cable says it has, etc.
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post #139 of 423 Old 04-21-2018, 08:16 AM
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@funky54 - If you hear a diff than that means one of two things. You think you hear a diff, or you actually hear a diff. It can be proven by scoping the speaker terminals. Since the speaker is the same and only the cable changed, the scope must show a diff on the speaker terminals. If it doesn't then its more likely that you think you heard a diff. If the electrical signal does not change in either freq domain (freq and amplitude) or time domain (delays) then its not possible for the same speaker to produce different sound cable to cable, etc.

In your case, you are working the claim in other direction, "I hear a diff, but now need to use my test gear to find out why or prove I didn't actually hear a diff", etc.
Well two things, first, past a db meter I have (and don’t need or want) no other equipment.

Second, why do I need to find an additional way to prove what I already have proven.

If every person agree’s there is a distinct difference in what they hear, I don’t care what the scope says. Maybe the scope isnt as thorough as our wonderfully created ears? Maybe the flaw is in what we “think” we know? To use the same analogy that was thrown at me in this thread, if the “smart” people of the day thought the earth was flat for many centuries, who’s to say in the near future we won’t discover how flawed our science is today in regards to how we measure or what we thought was important to measure?

I hear it, therefore it is. You don’t care about my proof. I don’t care about yours. We both see the others science lacking. I think the math books of the world measuring sound can’t see the forest through the trees and the math crowd thinks I’m in the Stone Age fooling myself with voodo.
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Why is it I can change things at the rack without them seeing or knowing and they still choose consistently?
This is the first time you mentioned any of the tests being blind, despite us clamoring for it this whole thread. These would be the only results that are possibly reliable (double blind would be better though). If you indeed performed these tests properly (listener has zero chance of knowing what's hooked up), with large enough sample sizes, then yes I'd say these results are reliable and you've demonstrated a case where the "changing things at the rack" matters. Whatever that means.


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Well two things, first, past a db meter I have (and don’t need or want) no other equipment.

Second, why do I need to find an additional way to prove what I already have proven.
Ignore the scope reading. You can measure tons of stuff that you can't actually hear.

Toole's video talks about finding the measurements that are audible and correlate to listener preference (albeit he's not talking about speaker wire). But you wouldn't want to risk being bored and actually learn something.


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I hear it, therefore it is.
Wildly untrue.


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Originally Posted by funky54 View Post
You don’t care about my proof. I don’t care about yours. We both see the others science lacking. I think the math books of the world measuring sound can’t see the forest through the trees and the math crowd thinks I’m in the Stone Age fooling myself with voodo.
Again, because almost all your "proof" is sighted tests, which have been demonstrated over and over to be an unreliable testing method. Your "science" is bunk. I'm curious to know more about the blind test you did, however.

Please tell me what's lacking about a double blind testing method?


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the math crowd thinks I’m in the Stone Age fooling myself with voodo.
Because people are fooled by audio voodoo all the time. Especially when it comes to chasing subtle differences. The fact that you think you're immune to these biases is rather arrogant. Do a proper blind test. Then you have the real answer.
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After about two hours of searching for blind tests of loudspeaker cables, I learned today that there is little available. But I did find this test:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...arison-tests-0

I also came across these two recent articles:

https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cab...rences-3134603

https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cab...erence-3134902
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I have no opinion about loudspeaker cables since I have never done any testing either long term or as a participant in a blind test. But I would like to know how many DBT or ABX tests with large sample sizes have been conducted testing such cables and that indicated zero audible differences.
You know how many DBT or ABX tests with any sample sizes you choose have been conducted testing if people can identify if they are riding a bicycle or a horse? ZERO.

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An anechoic chamber would be the worst possible listening room.

What makes you think your living room is acoustically horrible?
I've been in anechoic rooms. They are creepy and everything sounds dull, dead, lifeless, and dull. . . Did I mention dull?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funky54 View Post
...

Second, why do I need to find an additional way to prove what I already have proven.

If every person agree’s there is a distinct difference in what they hear, I don’t care what the scope says. ....
There you go, you don't need facts just support from others who agree with your beliefs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
After about two hours of searching for blind tests of loudspeaker cables, I learned today that there is little available. But I did find this test:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...arison-tests-0

I also came across these two recent articles:

https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cab...rences-3134603

https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cab...erence-3134902
Here you go. Have your library get these articles. Have fun.


CABLES:

-References-

"Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing", Greiner, R.A., JAES vol. 28, no. 5 May 80, pg

"Another Look at Speaker Cables", Greiner, R.A., BAS Speaker Dec 78, addendum March 79

"Cables and the Amp Speaker Interface", Greiner, R.A., Audio, Aug 89, addendum Nov 89,

"Forum: Twist and Turns", Greiner, R.A., Audio, Jan 92, pg.

"Effects of cable, Loudspeaker and Amplifier Interactions", Davis, Fred E., JAES, vol. 39, no. 6 Jun 91, pg.

"Speaker Cables: Testing for Audibility", Davis, Fred E., Audio, Jul 93, pg.

"Alpha-Core Goertz M1 & M2 Speaker Cables", Davis, Fred E., Audio, Aud 94, pg. 64, 65.

"The Amp/Speaker Interface", Meyer, E.B., Stereo Review, June 91, pg

"Cable and Sound Delivery", Newell, P., Studio Sound, Jul 91, pg

"Cable Bound", Olsher, D., Stereophile, Jul 88, pg

"Getting Wired", Warren, R., Stereo Review, Jun 90, pg.

"Loudspeaker Cables", Moir, J., Hi-Fi News& Record Review, May 79, pg.

"Making the Right Connections", Murray, E., CD Review, Aud 91, pg.

"Speaker Cables Compared", Ward, C. J., Thompson and Harling M., BAS Speaker, Apr 80,

"Speaker Cables: Science or Snake Oil", Pass, Nelson, Speaker Builder, Feb 80, pg.

"What's All this Splicing Stuff, Anyhow?", Pease, R. A., Electronic Digest, Dec 27, 90, pg.

"What's All this Splicing Stuff, Anyhow?", Pease, R. A., part 2, Electronic Design, Jul 11, 91, pg.

"Will 'Beasty' Speaker Cables Improve your Audio?", Honeycutt, R. A., Radio-Electronics, Feb 91, pg.

"The Wire and Cable Scene: Facts, Fictions and Frauds", Aczel, P. The Audio Critic, Part I- Issue 15, Spring-Winter 90-91; Part II-Issue 16, Spring-Fall 91, pg 51-57; Part III- issue 17, Winter 91-92, pg.50-52.

"Amplifiers and Speaker Cables", Masters, Ian, Audio lab test, Audio Scene Canada, Jun 81, pg 24-27.

"Speaker Cables: Can you Hear the Difference?", Greenhill, Larry, Stereo Review, Aug 83, pg 46-51.

"Cable Conflicts: The Mystery of Getting Wired", Klein, Larry, Electronics Now, Dec 93, pg. 80& 83.

"Wired Wisdom, The Great Chicago Cable Caper", Nousaine, Tom, Sound & Vision(Canada), Sep 95, pg. 73-76.

"Beating the Bafflegab & Filtering the FooFooDust", Hayward, James, Part 1- Marshall's Audio Ideas Guide(Canada) Summer/Fall 94

"Making the Connection. Part Deux: A Closer Look at the Role of Loudspeaker Cables", Hayward, James, Winter 95. Reprints available from Kimberkable.

"1/4" Cable Roundup", Gallagher, Mitch, Keyboard, Apr 99, pg. 44-48.

"Speaker Cables, Measurements vs Psychoacoustic Data", Villchur, Edgar, Audio, Jul 94, pg 34-37.

"The Truth About Speaker Cables", Hoffman, Williwam R., Popular Electronics, Jul 95, pg 46-48, &93.

"Cross Talk, Do Cables Have a Sonic Personality all their Own?", Kessler, Kehn & Nousaine, Tom, Video, May 96, pg. 36-40.

"Does Wire Directionality Exist?", Lampen, Stephen, Speaker Builder, 3/98, pg 30, 31.

"String 'em Up!", Butterworth, Brent & Griffin, Al, Home Theater,

"Walking the High Wire", Butterworth, Brent, Home Theater, Nov 98, pg 94-102.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Why do his words sound familiar? As if I've read it somewhere...
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After about two hours of searching for blind tests of loudspeaker cables, I learned today that there is little available.
After well over two decades of searching for blind tests of loudspeaker cables I learned that everyone who conducts the test competently [for instance, not unfairly comparing different gauges, one fat and one that's thin] has found there is no audible difference as long as the cable has normal R,C,L characteristics for that gauge. [And the ones with an errant R, C, or L sound different only because they exhibit a flawed frequency response instead of being flat as it should be.]

All speaker cable should be bought at a hardware store or Home Depot/Lowes sort of stores. Cheap lamp cord is fine as long as you get the right thickness for the run.

""...So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring and listening to speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster cable are indistinguishable from each other with music and seem to be superior to the 24 gauge wire commonly sold or given away as 'speaker cable.' Remember, however, that it was a measurable characteristic--higher resistance per foot--that made 24 gauge sound different from the other cables. If the cable runs were only 6 instead of 30 feet, the overall cable resistances would have been lower and our tests would probably have found no audible differences between the three cables. This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires" -

- Stereo Review, [now called Sound and Vision, the largest and oldest US audio reviewing magazine] 1983
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You know how many DBT or ABX tests with any sample sizes you choose have been conducted testing if people can identify if they are riding a bicycle or a horse? ZERO.
That was useful.
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Here you go. Have your library get these articles.

Supply links, please, so we can read them.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
After well over two decades of searching for blind tests of loudspeaker cables I learned that everyone who conducts the test competently [for instance, not unfairly comparing different gauges, one fat and one that's thin] has found there is no audible difference as long as the cable has normal R,C,L characteristics for that gauge. [And the ones with an errant R, C, or L sound different only because they exhibit a flawed frequency response instead of being flat as it should be.]

All speaker cable should be bought at a hardware store or Home Depot/Lowes sort of stores. Cheap lamp cord is fine as long as you get the right thickness for the run.

""...So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring and listening to speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster cable are indistinguishable from each other with music and seem to be superior to the 24 gauge wire commonly sold or given away as 'speaker cable.' Remember, however, that it was a measurable characteristic--higher resistance per foot--that made 24 gauge sound different from the other cables. If the cable runs were only 6 instead of 30 feet, the overall cable resistances would have been lower and our tests would probably have found no audible differences between the three cables. This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires" -

- Stereo Review, [now called Sound and Vision, the largest and oldest US audio reviewing magazine] 1983
Like I said earlier, I have never made any loudspeaker cable comparisons, so I have no opinion one way or another based on personal experience. But it is interesting that blind testing and measurements do indicate that audible differences indeed exist.

Have you conducted listening tests of a large number of different loudspeaker cables of various configurations to be so adamant that there cannot be audible differences? If yes, what specific cables have you compared?
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