How are the Requirements for 2 Channel Different Than HT? - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 08:16 PM
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are all speakers designed to sound best not close to walls or in huge open rooms? maybe some tools not designed for same purpose?

all this measurement stuff is fun for the science or hobby, but my ears just dont buy alot of it...my ears do buy some tools designed for the music genres I like and the room they are going in...but obviously havent heard alot so like the forums for opinions.

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post #212 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
are all speakers designed to sound best not close to walls or in huge open rooms? ...
Speaker designs have changed over the years. Speakers use to be stuck in a corner or against the wall. Then they slowly creeped out into the room. Some designs sound best well out into the room or freestanding. There is no set formula but most manufacturers will give you guidelines.

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post #213 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
That's it?
Im not here to educate you even though you really don't understand what makes a good loudspeaker. These three people have a long pedigree of designing and building award winning speakers. Do you know what the real kicker is? All of their products excel in both HT and 2 channel applications.

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post #214 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's an interesting thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...-b-w-wins.html

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post #215 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Russ69 View Post
Speaker designs have changed over the years. Speakers use to be stuck in a corner or against the wall. Then they slowly creeped out into the room. Some designs sound best well out into the room or freestanding. There is no set formula but most manufacturers will give you guidelines.
More accurately, speaker designers have expanded their product range to accomodate living conditions such as onwall, inwall, near boundaries, and away from boundaries. That way they target a bigger customer base.

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post #216 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Russ69 View Post
Some rooms are definitely better than others.
How do you handle a challenging room? The point you chose to ignore is that even the best sounding equipment can sound abysmal in a bad acoustic environment and corrective eq may be one's only avenue to correct this.

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post #217 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 09:30 PM
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well I have a pet peave when a well known very experienced reviewer for publications puts 20k+ speakers in a shoebox and then uses equipment opposite of their design to then give an ok review...lol...why dont reviewers just review with what manufacturers recommend like jbl/harmon? bias anyone?

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post #218 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
How do you handle a challenging room? ...
I move my stuff to a better room, start asking my wife for pillows and ferns.

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post #219 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
well I have a pet peave when a well known very experienced reviewer for publications puts 20k+ speakers in a shoebox and then uses equipment opposite of their design to then give an ok review...lol..
Not sure if you know this or not but writers are not making the big bucks, they are doing the best they can with what they have or with what someone will lend them. Nothing dubious just the reality of the real world.

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post #220 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 09:41 PM
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Not sure if you know this or not but writers are not making the big bucks, they are doing the best they can with what they have or with what someone will lend them. Nothing dubious just the reality of the real world.
makes sense...but still makes it tough to narrow down...rather have the mag company give the reviewers an avr for all speaker reviews

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post #221 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
makes sense...but still makes it tough to narrow down...rather have the mag company give the reviewers an avr for all speaker reviews
Never going to happen. Their job is to create interest in equipment and write about it, selling ad space and/or magazines. They will use the equipment they have on hand and the manufacturers will loan equipment in the hope it is talked about in a review. None of the magazines/writers are interested in a scientific based testing procedure. The reason for that is very simple, it would be boring to read. The car magazines put the Ferrari on the cover not as a public service but so they can write interesting content and draw people to buy the magazine. It's not sinister, it's just the way that industry works.

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post #222 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 10:07 PM
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back on subject of ht vs 2.0 wouldnt the use of subs, many subs just make it an unfair fight ?

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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post #223 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
back on subject of ht vs 2.0 wouldnt the use of subs, many subs just make it an unfair fight ?
Let me quote a hi-fi writer coming out of a demo room. "It's got bass, it's got bass, it's got bass all over the place." Quality over quantity.

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post #224 of 328 Old 06-07-2017, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
back on subject of ht vs 2.0 wouldnt the use of subs, many subs just make it an unfair fight ?
Subs have been in use since 1968, you can blame Infinity for that one. In the 80's, the audiophiles I ran into ran subs--two of them and would measure where they go. I've been using them since 1990 so it is not "unfair" it just the way it works.

Are subs, parametric EQ, dynamic EQ, limiters, active speakers, electronic crossovers and neodymium magnets cheating? No, just another tool in the tool box to be used to improve sound. To clarify for people, I use the term "2.2" for my stereo system just so they are aware active subwoofers are involved. I get better bass quality using two subwoofers, the additional SPL is minor compared to the improved even frequency response and lower distortion running 2 VS running 1.
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post #225 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 12:04 AM
 
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See post 8 of this thread. It's a typical Obj. comment.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-...er-spiral.html

and here ..

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...-jamo-c93.html

post 5 and 37 ... and that's just the last 2 days. There are, literally, hundreds.
Those don't show any of your claimed "It happens all the time. Trying to reason with them is futile (they are Borg ). Smugly superior is not a way to go through life, nor does it create an atmosphere of reasonable dialog. We will be assimilated! Or, perhaps not .. and that frustrates the hell out of them, such that they become even more dogmatic in their beliefs."
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post #226 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 12:38 AM
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Those don't show any of your claimed "It happens all the time. Trying to reason with them is futile (they are Borg ). Smugly superior is not a way to go through life, nor does it create an atmosphere of reasonable dialog. We will be assimilated! Or, perhaps not .. and that frustrates the hell out of them, such that they become even more dogmatic in their beliefs."

I'm not going to try to dig through 11 years of posts. If you are that curious, look up anything with "cable", "speaker break-in", all amplifiers sound alike", "snake oil", or "Home Depot".

Alternatively, just pay attention to posts of this nature in the future and watch the fun!

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post #227 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
Im not here to educate you even though you really don't understand what makes a good loudspeaker. These three people have a long pedigree of designing and building award winning speakers. Do you know what the real kicker is? All of their products excel in both HT and 2 channel applications.

A little condescending again, wouldn't you say? So just three?

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post #228 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Russ69 View Post
Let me quote a hi-fi writer coming out of a demo room. "It's got bass, it's got bass, it's got bass all over the place." Quality over quantity.
What? Do you like subs?

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[QUOTE=18Hurts;53506353I get better bass quality using two subwoofers, the additional SPL is minor compared to the improved even frequency response and lower distortion running 2 VS running 1.[/QUOTE]

More accurately, you get better in room frequency response in the bass area from a standpoint of better bass distribution throughout the room.
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post #230 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
back on subject of ht vs 2.0 wouldnt the use of subs, many subs just make it an unfair fight ?
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What? Do you like subs?
I just use two small ones.


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post #231 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 08:37 AM
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Mike, despite your valiant effort, looks like t1/2 <= 6h

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post #232 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
More accurately, you get better in room frequency response in the bass area from a standpoint of better bass distribution throughout the room.
You forgot lower distortion I'd like to add more but it's a garage for the 2.2 system, the garage door protests loudly but my wife even more once it is all up to full chat. I could get rid of the BBQ smoker and the riding mower to gain the space I need for four subs but there are limits.
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post #233 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
You forgot lower distortion I'd like to add more but it's a garage for the 2.2 system, the garage door protests loudly but my wife even more once it is all up to full chat. I could get rid of the BBQ smoker and the riding mower to gain the space I need for four subs but there are limits.
What, you can't put subs in the ceiling or up on the walls.
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post #234 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 09:41 AM
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I think it's interesting that we choose to divide ourselves into "camps" at all. Subjectivists versus objectivists; either music audiophiles, or HT enthusiasts. Black or white, with no shades of gray. To the extent that the original question provoked thoughtful insights into potential similarities or differences between speakers for 2-channel and speakers for HT, the thread is a success. To the extent that it motivates people to take positions in opposition to other viewpoints, it is less so.

There are as many different ways to enjoy music as there are people to enjoy it. And, the same thing is true for movies. Some of us only enjoy one of those things, or enjoy one much more than the other. Some of us enjoy both equally and configure our audio systems equally, or differently, as our personal preferences dictate. Obtaining universal agreement on the best speaker for 2-channel, and on the best speaker for HT, would be one way of answering the original question, because then specific characteristics of each speaker could be compared and differentiated. But, obtaining that universal agreement would be a wholly unrealistic expectation, and even if it were possible, people would still disagree on why particular characteristic of each speaker made the most difference.

It's an inherently unanswerable question, in my opinion, because it necessarily depends on the subjective opinion of the person answering it. I think it's unfortunate that attempts to answer the question inevitably causes people to divide themselves into camps, instead of trying to find commonalities of viewpoint, and instead of understanding that complete consensus on what amounts to an entertainment preference is inherently impossible.

Again, in my opinion, there are as many different potential viewpoints on this subject as there are people to express them. And, by definition, we will all subscribe to our own viewpoints and preferences. But, why turn it into an argument, or divide ourselves into camps in the process? Of course, we will all have different viewpoints on this. And, why not?

Regards,
Mike
I'm the weirdo that straddles both camps. I have what would be considered an HT setup by most people, a bunch of Klipsch speakers, and several(relatively low powered) subs. Yet, in the 6 months I've had this setup, I've yet to watch a movie(gonna be rectified tonight, though). I've watched some TV/streaming with nice 5.1 soundtracks, but mostly I've listened to music, 2 channel and multi channel. I use Audyssey. I don't believe in a lot of what super duper audiophiles believe in. I have yet to get REW, and measure anything. I finally got an SPL meter, and confirmed what I already knew, I'm damaging my hearing. I've been damaging my hearing for 43 years, and can still hear, so there's that.

Most importantly, I really enjoy my system. I haven't listened to this much music since I was a kid destroying my dad's budget audiophile system in the seventies. Ok, and through my teens and early twenties, as well, but at some point, it switched to my system. Oh, and occasionally through my thirties and forties with my previous Polk/Velodyne system.

Anyone still with me???
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post #235 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 10:58 AM
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47+ years here. Now I just turn it up till I can SEE the music.
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post #236 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
More accurately, speaker designers have expanded their product range to accomodate living conditions such as onwall, inwall, near boundaries, and away from boundaries. That way they target a bigger customer base.
Sounds like the modern interpretation. Back in the 40,50, and early 60s, HI-FI was pretty much DIY. You bought the drivers and made a cabinet or put a motorboard in the wall. They were high efficiency drivers that matched the amps of the day. As stereo replaced mono systems, loudspeaker manufacturers started making smaller home systems. They still needed to be on the floor and near a wall to get proper bass reinforcement. As the loudspeakers got smaller and less efficient the need for big amps was causing greater demand. As the big amps came on line, the big full range loudspeakers could start moving away from room boundaries for bass reinforcement. Loudspeaker designers were now not limited in power and could change their designs to work better without being near reinforcing boundaries. It happened slowly and occurred due to new smaller loudspeaker designs and the availability of high power amps/receivers at reasonable prices. The demand for onwall, or near boundary/away from boundary designs is a product of the HT market as these products were not in common use until then.
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post #237 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Russ69 View Post
Sounds like the modern interpretation. Back in the 40,50, and early 60s, HI-FI was pretty much DIY. You bought the drivers and made a cabinet or put a motorboard in the wall. They were high efficiency drivers that matched the amps of the day. As stereo replaced mono systems, loudspeaker manufacturers started making smaller home systems. They still needed to be on the floor and near a wall to get proper bass reinforcement. As the loudspeakers got smaller and less efficient the need for big amps was causing greater demand. As the big amps came on line, the big full range loudspeakers could start moving away from room boundaries for bass reinforcement. Loudspeaker designers were now not limited in power and could change their designs to work better without being near reinforcing boundaries. It happened slowly and occurred due to new smaller loudspeaker designs and the availability of high power amps/receivers at reasonable prices. The demand for onwall, or near boundary/away from boundary designs is a product of the HT market as these products were not in common use until then.
I think your account is entirely inaccurate. I know for a fact that there were high power amps back in the 60s and speaker sensitivities were all over the map back then as they are now. You keep grasping at straws that aren't there. You fail to recognize that lifestyle is the key driver for differdnt style of today's speakers. Alot of people dont want the behmoths you own because of the real estate they take up in the room and they find big boxes and things that look like a screen ugly and intrusive.

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BR Yam. BD-S681/Sony X800/Pan. BD30 DPL Sam. 65"/ 55"/50"
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post #238 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 09:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
I'm not going to try to dig through 11 years of posts. If you are that curious, look up anything with "cable", "speaker break-in", all amplifiers sound alike", "snake oil", or "Home Depot".

Alternatively, just pay attention to posts of this nature in the future and watch the fun!
You can't quote any because those events took place in your head which is also known as "opinion". BTW, we are all entitled to it. The critical part is backing it up with supporting evidence. It's your credibility that's on the line.
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post #239 of 328 Old 06-08-2017, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
Paul Barton from PSB
Dennis Murphy and Jim Salk from Salk speakers.
Here is a PSB Image T65 frequency graph. I don't see a flat on-axis response so I'm guessing off axis it's worse(?). From 400 hz it starts looking like a roller coaster.

I've heard Jims speakers they're nice, but the Song3 seemed to lack life and the exotica 3 was terrible.


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post #240 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 04:11 AM
3db
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
Here is a PSB Image T65 frequency graph. I don't see a flat on-axis response so I'm guessing off axis it's worse(?). From 400 hz it starts looking like a roller coaster.

I've heard Jims speakers they're nice, but the Song3 seemed to lack life and the exotica 3 was horrible.
Have you looked at a lot of curves? I have and these are not that bad at all. Most likely, on par with your speakers. If you want more accurate measurements,I suggest visiting soundstage.com or Stereophile. S&V measurements are not all that accurate.

Liking a speaker is a personal preference. It would appear from your critique and comments that your preference is towards a more colored or biased sound, something like boom and sizzle. Thats your choice but to me, I would get listener fatigue early on whereas the PSB and Salk speakers, I could listen for extended time and not get tired.

AVR Yamaha RX-V 1800/1900/1500
TT/Cassette ProJect Xpression III/Yamaha KX1200/KX800
BR Yam. BD-S681/Sony X800/Pan. BD30 DPL Sam. 65"/ 55"/50"
Speakers PSB T-45,8C,1B/ PSB 500,200C,RBH A600/Alphas
Subs Rythmic LV12-R/PSB Subsonic 6/5

Last edited by 3db; 06-09-2017 at 04:16 AM.
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