How are the Requirements for 2 Channel Different Than HT? - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 05:05 AM
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I bought a new house a few years ago that had an option for a dedicated media room in the basement, 28x14. I planned the room as an ht with heavy emphasis on 2 channel performance. My main speakers are Aerial acoustics 7T's, driven by a Mcintosh MC-252, a Marantz AV-8802 handles the processing. I also have 4 Martin Logan sealed, servo subs. The 7T's are fantastic for music, very well balanced and imaging to die for. They are also very capable of handling the demands of movie soundtracks. They wont go as loud as horn loaded speakers but that's fine with me. I have the subs in play with two channel material, they blend in very well with my mains. I feel like I came as close as I could to having the best of both worlds. 7.1 with Atmos/DTS_x in ceiling speakers.

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post #242 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
I'm not going to try to dig through 11 years of posts. If you are that curious, look up anything with "cable", "speaker break-in", all amplifiers sound alike", "snake oil", or "Home Depot".

Alternatively, just pay attention to posts of this nature in the future and watch the fun!

This might help you as this comes up every week or so.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ype=&as_rights=

True, there are false positives here as well as many missed positives depending on how one phrases the claim. Google doesn't work well with true Boolean operators so I can't make my search quite as precise as I'd like. However, with 1.5 million results I'm sure you'll find plenty if you care to do so.

Or if I try to narrow a bit, I'm still missing a bunch, but you'll find plenty of the eruptions you're talking about.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=1497008993364

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post #243 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
Have you looked at a lot of curves? I have and these are not that bad at all. Most likely, on par with your speakers. If you want more accurate measurements,I suggest visiting soundstage.com or Stereophile. S&V measurements are not all that accurate.

Liking a speaker is a personal preference. It would appear from your critique and comments that your preference is towards a more colored or biased sound, something like boom and sizzle. Thats your choice but to me, I would get listener fatigue early on whereas the PSB and Salk speakers, I could listen for extended time and not get tired.

Nope you have me wrong. This is what the speakers a line below mine look like. Dynaudio believes in similar flat frequency response, low distortion, wide dispersion. Dynaudio is smooth and silky, touch of warmth, with strong, tight bass. You should hear them sometime.



Here you go the previous Focus line, I owned both the Excite and Focus. The Focus line I have is the newer one (now discontinued), they improved woofers by using the upper tier contour with some newer things they'd learned from the Confidence revision for quicker response and longer excursion, the tweeter was given the new precision coating and a neodiuyum magnet vs ferrite, changed the crossover to that matching more closely their Special 25 speaker and improved cabinet structure and dampening. Again a nice flat response.


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post #244 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
Nope you have me wrong. This is what the speakers a line below mine look like. Dynaudio believes in similar flat frequency response, low distortion, wide dispersion. Dynaudio is smooth and silky, touch of warmth, with strong, tight bass. You should hear them sometime.
Its difficult to do an accurate comparison on the S&V curves verses the Stereophile curves no its not black and white. Its also unfair to compare an entry level speaker which the T65s are to the Dynaudios. Are your speakers towers or bookshelves?

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post #245 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 06:54 AM
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However, as one designer/engineer active on AVS stated yesterday in another thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...allenge-6.html

in post 163:

"What you're hearing - or what you're hearing said - owes to a lot of other factors, among them distortion, phase and time behavior, energy storage, and even the nature of crossover work and its damping and acoustical geometry. Even the speaker's load will influence its amplifier. It's too complex to explain in a forum comment but it's also too complicated to try and deduce from a plotted response, or even a few different types of them."
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post #246 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
Its difficult to do an accurate comparison on the S&V curves verses the Stereophile curves no its not black and white. Its also unfair to compare an entry level speaker which the T65s are to the Dynaudios. Are your speakers towers or bookshelves?
Here you go. Someone on AVS had measurements from a German mag. I remember seeing them and did a thread search. My speakers are towers on the left (Focus 260) and the right is the step-up 340s. I have owned towers and bookshelves in both lines.

http://www.schlegelmilch-highend.de/...play_10_11.pdf


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post #247 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
Dynaudio believes in similar flat frequency response, low distortion, wide dispersion. Dynaudio is smooth and silky, touch of warmth, with strong, tight bass.
In my past few years of looking through every chart I could find, outside of studio monitors it seems most Dynaudio, all Revel, some KEF, most PSB and some Paradigm have the flattest frequency responses I've run across.
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post #248 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
However, as one designer/engineer active on AVS stated yesterday in another thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...allenge-6.html

in post 163:

"What you're hearing - or what you're hearing said - owes to a lot of other factors, among them distortion, phase and time behavior, energy storage, and even the nature of crossover work and its damping and acoustical geometry. Even the speaker's load will influence its amplifier. It's too complex to explain in a forum comment but it's also too complicated to try and deduce from a plotted response, or even a few different types of them."
Totally agree that there's more then frequency response. Also frequency response may or may not tell you how the speaker will sound. It only tells you if it's engineered well. I've heard many many speakers that show great designs and I find them flat and boring, or bright, or muddy and slow.

Nothing replaces an audition
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post #249 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
Totally agree that there's more then frequency response. Also frequency response may or may not tell you how the speaker will sound. It only tells you if it's engineered well. I've heard many many speakers that show great designs and I find them flat and boring, or bright, or muddy and slow.

Nothing replaces an audition

I do want to clarify, however, that side to side consistency with regards to frequency response does matter for imagining / soundstage and all that is related. FR in and of itself, tells me next to nothing regarding what a speaker will sound like.
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post #250 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 12:20 PM
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Curious

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Originally Posted by SmittyJS View Post
In my past few years of looking through every chart I could find, outside of studio monitors it seems most Dynaudio, all Revel, some KEF, most PSB and some Paradigm have the flattest frequency responses I've run across.
Of the speakers mentioned above, I've gravitated towards Dynaudio, Revel, and KEF. But not PSB and Paradigm. What would all of you say are some of the reasons for that?
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post #251 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
Totally agree that there's more then frequency response. Also frequency response may or may not tell you how the speaker will sound. It only tells you if it's engineered well. I've heard many many speakers that show great designs and I find them flat and boring, or bright, or muddy and slow.

Nothing replaces an audition
If you look at Stereophile or at soundstage.com, there's a lot more measurements than frequency but if you refuse to look.. you know the old saying.. You can lead an old horse to water...

Again I can't argue personal preference to speaker selection. However, a speaker measuring flat cannot sound dull or bright, muddy or other wise. I would attribute that to poor room acoustics, an aspect that most people over look all to easily.

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post #252 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by davidrds View Post
Of the speakers mentioned above, I've gravitated towards Dynaudio, Revel, and KEF. But not PSB and Paradigm. What would all of you say are some of the reasons for that?
Sight bias

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post #253 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I do want to clarify, however, that side to side consistency with regards to frequency response does matter for imagining / soundstage and all that is related. FR in and of itself, tells me next to nothing regarding what a speaker will sound like.
Frequency response plus the other measurements do. Without the frequency response, the other measurements are equally meaningless.

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post #254 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
If you look at Stereophile or at soundstage.com, there's a lot more measurements than frequency but if you refuse to look.. you know the old saying.. You can lead an old horse to water...

Again I can't argue personal preference to speaker selection. However, a speaker measuring flat cannot sound dull or bright, muddy or other wise. I would attribute that to poor room acoustics, an aspect that most people over look all to easily.
Been a subscriber to stereophile for 10 yrs. thanks!

👌🏻

I had GIK Acoustics assist me with my room acoustics. I also have access to many dealers in SoCal with excellent rooms and setups. I can hear almost anything. And I've heard A Lot.

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post #255 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
Been a subscriber to stereophile for 10 yrs. thanks!

👌🏻

I had GIK Acoustics assist me with my room acoustics. I also have access to many dealers in SoCal with excellent rooms and setups. I can hear almost anything. And I've heard A Lot.
Coughs *BS*

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post #256 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
Frequency response plus the other measurements do. Without the frequency response, the other measurements are equally meaningless.

That's what I just said, I believe.

"Without the frequency response, the other measurements are equally meaningless"

Well sure, you gotta have sound.
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post #257 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
Been a subscriber to stereophile for 10 yrs. thanks!

👌🏻

I had GIK Acoustics assist me with my room acoustics. I also have access to many dealers in SoCal with excellent rooms and setups. I can hear almost anything. And I've heard A Lot.

That's true if you're in SoCal. Bit of a drive with a bit of traffic, but it's all there somewhere. Visit Scott Walker on Tustin in Anaheim if you haven't. Bring home a few hundred thou worth of VAC and Magico!
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post #258 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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...I also have access to many dealers in SoCal with excellent rooms and setups. I can hear almost anything. And I've heard A Lot.
Fantastic, nothing better than getting out of your Mom's basement and getting out in the real world and hearing first class systems. Nothing better and you can leave the data sheets at home and just enjoy the music.

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post #259 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
That's true if you're in SoCal. Bit of a drive with a bit of traffic, but it's all there somewhere. Visit Scott Walker on Tustin in Anaheim if you haven't. Bring home a few hundred thou worth of VAC and Magico!
Have not been to his store but did his Magico demo at THE Show 3 yrs in a row. Impressive speakers, but I do like the Raidho D4.1s more. Also liked the YG Acoustics more.

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post #260 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
Sight bias
Wow. Also on expert on what one's visual preferences are?
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post #261 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 02:22 PM
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Of the speakers mentioned above, I've gravitated towards Dynaudio, Revel, and KEF. But not PSB and Paradigm. What would all of you say are some of the reasons for that?
Beats the hell out of me. I have heard people say Paradigms sound bright, but speaking for the Signatures, I think the beryllium tweeter is stunningly accurate on violins and cymbals.

My Paradigm S1 and the KEF 201/2 are probably the flattest I've seen measurements for on the magazine sites.
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Originally Posted by SmittyJS View Post
Beats the hell out of me. I have heard people say Paradigms sound bright...
When I hear that, I know it's a speaker that I might be interested in, go figure.

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You can't quote any because those events took place in your head which is also known as "opinion". BTW, we are all entitled to it. The critical part is backing it up with supporting evidence. It's your credibility that's on the line.
Your opinion of my credibility means less than nothing. Just another Obj. defending "his boys". Welcome to my Ignore List. Feel free to respond in kind.

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In the last 24 hours, we've rec'd several reports on posts in this thread...usually attributed to the same members. If members can't keep their posts free of personal attacks, we'll start issuing infractions and thread bans. Please stop with the snarky comments and personal attacks.
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post #265 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 04:18 PM
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Beats the hell out of me. I have heard people say Paradigms sound bright, but speaking for the Signatures, I think the beryllium tweeter is stunningly accurate on violins and cymbals.

My Paradigm S1 and the KEF 201/2 are probably the flattest I've seen measurements for on the magazine sites.
It confuses me too. A speaker that measures flat can either sound bright or dull to the listener but not both. When someone claims hearing two different sounds from speakers that measure very similar, then I begin to question the acoustics of the rooms they heard the speakers in or any biases that the listener may have including the listener's mood.

Your Paradigms are awesome btw.

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post #266 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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It confuses me too. A speaker that measures flat can either sound bright or dull to the listener but not both...
It's a listener preference. I've heard people talk about the same loudspeaker and they say it's too bright, just right or not bright at all. I know from my experience that I lean towards the brighter side. I think bad past experiences may influence that but it is just a guess.

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Originally Posted by davidrds View Post
Of the speakers mentioned above, I've gravitated towards Dynaudio, Revel, and KEF. But not PSB and Paradigm. What would all of you say are some of the reasons for that?
Only @3db answered. In his case 'sight bias.' I definitely agree that this is one reason, and an important one. However, in this case I find Paradigm and PSBs much more pleasing to the eye than comparably priced mid-range KEF. But I'd still pick KEF, in this case. I've also chosen a speaker for my 2ch system that has broad agreement on it's lack of looks.

Anything else, on the auditory front? Thank you.
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post #268 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SmittyJS View Post
Beats the hell out of me. I have heard people say Paradigms sound bright, but speaking for the Signatures, I think the beryllium tweeter is stunningly accurate on violins and cymbals.

My Paradigm S1 and the KEF 201/2 are probably the flattest I've seen measurements for on the magazine sites.
.

Thanks, SmittyJS. I know I need to audition the Personas. I'm a fan of Paradigm... steered a friend their way for his HT setup and he's very happy.

Just trying to figure out what the reasons may be.
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post #269 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by davidrds View Post
Only @3db answered. In his case 'sight bias.' I definitely agree that this is one reason, and an important one. However, in this case I find Paradigm and PSBs much more pleasing to the eye than comparably priced mid-range KEF. But I'd still pick KEF, in this case. I've also chosen a speaker for my 2ch system that has broad agreement on it's lack of looks.

Anything else, on the auditory front? Thank you.
Listener preferences cannot be mapped and thats ok. Its what makes this hobby interesting. I think PSB are not a very attractive speaker, well the specific line I purchased. I bought them for their sound. I think KEF makes a nice looking speaker but I prsfer the PSB sound.

AVR Yamaha RX-V 1800/1900/1500
TT/Cassette ProJect Xpression III/Yamaha KX1200/KX800
BR Yam. BD-S681/Sony X800/Pan. BD30 DPL Sam. 65"/ 55"/50"
Speakers PSB T-45,8C,1B/ PSB 500,200C,RBH A600/Alphas
Subs Rythmic LV12-R/PSB Subsonic 6/5
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post #270 of 328 Old 06-09-2017, 09:24 PM
3db
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ69 View Post
It's a listener preference. I've heard people talk about the same loudspeaker and they say it's too bright, just right or not bright at all. I know from my experience that I lean towards the brighter side. I think bad past experiences may influence that but it is just a guess.
You missed my point. Speakers will sound differerent to different people. That's not the issue. The issue I have is that if two speakers measure very similar, I question the credibility of the listener or the environment they are in if they hear two very different results, ie bright or muddied. If the environment is the same for the two different speakers, then something IS definitely amiss with the listener. If the rooms are different, then its the rooms.

AVR Yamaha RX-V 1800/1900/1500
TT/Cassette ProJect Xpression III/Yamaha KX1200/KX800
BR Yam. BD-S681/Sony X800/Pan. BD30 DPL Sam. 65"/ 55"/50"
Speakers PSB T-45,8C,1B/ PSB 500,200C,RBH A600/Alphas
Subs Rythmic LV12-R/PSB Subsonic 6/5
3db is online now  
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