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post #61 of 171 Old 12-13-2017, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
It depends on how bad the null is and how much headroom you have in the system, but yes, peaks are easier to tame.



Thanks for the suggestion, I listened to it last night, I like it.



Yes, that is the ARC I was referring to.



That thing is a beast. I'm not sure if it looks more like a piece of audio equipment or a computer from the 50s.

This is getting fixed at expense of who knows what else. ARC was sold to the Italians after Bill Johnson passed away. Same hold entity that owns Sonus Faber


So the new ARC GS150 is much more Purdy


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post #62 of 171 Old 12-13-2017, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
It depends on how bad the null is and how much headroom you have in the system, but yes, peaks are easier to tame.



Thanks for the suggestion, I listened to it last night, I like it.



Yes, that is the ARC I was referring to.



That thing is a beast. I'm not sure if it looks more like a piece of audio equipment or a computer from the 50s.
I wonder what the cost would be for replacing those tubes????
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post #63 of 171 Old 12-13-2017, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I wonder what the cost would be for replacing those tubes????

Ha, think of this one. 84 output tubes, 12 driver tubes and forget what else. You ever met Ralph? He comes up with just insane stuff and this is the most insane he's done.


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post #64 of 171 Old 12-13-2017, 10:08 AM
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Ha, think of this one. 84 output tubes, 12 driver tubes and forget what else. You ever met Ralph? He comes up with just insane stuff and this is the most insane he's done.


I think I'll stick to my CJ ET3SE and it's lonely 6922 tube.
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post #65 of 171 Old 12-13-2017, 10:12 AM
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Ha, think of this one. 84 output tubes, 12 driver tubes and forget what else. You ever met Ralph? He comes up with just insane stuff and this is the most insane he's done.


So, how many seconds can you run that before it explodes?
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post #66 of 171 Old 12-13-2017, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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So, how many seconds can you run that before it explodes?

Why on earth would it explode?

If you have questions, ask him

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post #67 of 171 Old 12-13-2017, 10:18 AM
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Why on earth would it explode?


If you have questions, ask him


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Concentrated heat? Admittedly, I haven't had a tube anything for over, I'd guess, 45 years, but they got damn hot with a lot fewer tubes.
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post #68 of 171 Old 12-13-2017, 10:19 AM
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I wonder what the cost would be for replacing those tubes????
Heh, I had to look it up, based on the tubes the AR site says that uses, about $1,900 per amp to replace all of them, and since that's a mono amp, you'd need to double that for your pair. Of course, if you can afford the $66,000/unit price to begin with, that's probably not a big deal.
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post #69 of 171 Old 12-13-2017, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Concentrated heat? Admittedly, I haven't had a tube anything for over, I'd guess, 45 years, but they got damn hot with a lot fewer tubes.

And Ralph's really get hot. In the past when The Show at the CES was the BFD in high end audio you could always see his room from down the hall by the heat waves emanating from it. I had the slightly smaller MA2s and got rid of them because of the insane heat. Much hotter than the ARC Classic 150s and far hotter than my VTL300s
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post #70 of 171 Old 12-13-2017, 11:30 AM
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Just for you Scott to maybe keep you from destroying your gear. YMMV

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post #71 of 171 Old 12-13-2017, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Heh, I had to look it up, based on the tubes the AR site says that uses, about $1,900 per amp to replace all of them, and since that's a mono amp, you'd need to double that for your pair. Of course, if you can afford the $66,000/unit price to begin with, that's probably not a big deal.

I assume you're talking about the ARC Reference 750 and not the Atma Sphere MA3? The MA3 would be a hell of a lot more than that to replace 96 tubes. That's just too insane to comprehend.
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post #72 of 171 Old 12-16-2017, 11:46 AM
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@Scotth3886 I just read through the entire thread.

I didn't catch the room dimensions. Is the room sealed or open to other rooms? Any acoustic treatments? Why did you want to add to your existing ML subs? Why add SVS and not more MLs?

The SVS NSD are budget subs. Nothing I would recommend for critical music listening. I'm not a big fan of the ML subs either (way overpriced IMO). I'm surprised by your comments about Seaton and Funk Audio subs (I own both). In fact I helped a local SVS member replace a Dynamo 1500 (which I found surprisingly good) with a DIY UM18-22 w/Seaton amp and there is no comparison.

For your situation I would return the SVS subs, sell the ML subs, and go with a pair of Rythmik Audio subs if you are after musical accuracy. They build the best inexpensive subs for music. I'd like to know more info about your room and your budget.

I suspect you may like the w700s because of higher harmonic distortion (not better harmonic reproduction). The UMIK-1 and REW will allow you to measure this. Moving to something like Rythmik, Seaton, Funk, or a higher end SVS will be an initial adjustment for most listeners because of the lower distortion. You should adjust and begin to appreciate the accuracy and detail provided by higher-end subs.

IME and IMHO, the best bass for music is produced by Transmission-Line (PMC) and horn-loaded subs, the Funk 15.Hs are likely the best horns one can buy (or even build). PMC ATL subs are not cheap and neither are the Funks.
https://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p46/1...ofer_pair.html

Last, many don't understand just how large are role the room plays in regards to your audio. Take a look at the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170. I believe the TDAI w/RoomPerfect may outperform a 2ch integrated without room correction & bass management. A dealer may be able to offer you an in-home trial.
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post #73 of 171 Old 12-16-2017, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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@Scotth3886 I just read through the entire thread.

I didn't catch the room dimensions. Is the room sealed or open to other rooms? Any acoustic treatments? Why did you want to add to your existing ML subs? Why add SVS and not more MLs?

The SVS NSD are budget subs. Nothing I would recommend for critical music listening. I'm not a big fan of the ML subs either (way overpriced IMO). I'm surprised by your comments about Seaton and Funk Audio subs (I own both). In fact I helped a local SVS member replace a Dynamo 1500 (which I found surprisingly good) with a DIY UM18-22 w/Seaton amp and there is no comparison.

For your situation I would return the SVS subs, sell the ML subs, and go with a pair of Rythmik Audio subs if you are after musical accuracy. They build the best inexpensive subs for music. I'd like to know more info about your room and your budget.

I suspect you may like the w700s because of higher harmonic distortion (not better harmonic reproduction). The UMIK-1 and REW will allow you to measure this. Moving to something like Rythmik, Seaton, Funk, or a higher end SVS will be an initial adjustment for most listeners because of the lower distortion. You should adjust and begin to appreciate the accuracy and detail provided by higher-end subs.

IME and IMHO, the best bass for music is produced by Transmission-Line (PMC) and horn-loaded subs, the Funk 15.Hs are likely the best horns one can buy (or even build). PMC ATL subs are not cheap and neither are the Funks.
https://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p46/1...ofer_pair.html

Last, many don't understand just how large are role the room plays in regards to your audio. Take a look at the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170. I believe the TDAI w/RoomPerfect may outperform a 2ch integrated without room correction & bass management. A dealer may be able to offer you an in-home trial.

Just way too much in the above to start posting my 4,000+ posts over again. To try to keep it short, I'll post room and pic, which was in the other thread I hijacked.

"Why did you want to add to your existing ML subs? Why add SVS and not more MLs"

I don't why I did this. Since it's about $150 for shipping back, I'll end up keeping them. I have four system in this house so I'll use them elsewhere or just put em back in the boxes and leave them that way.

A couple of things though 1) no horns under any condition. 2) no EQ. 3) no AVRs 4) the available of a complete analog food chain, butt to nut, for my 20,000+ LP collection



Subs are in a slightly different location now versus when I drafted the floor plan. Best sound still is with subs off. None of this happened until I signed up for Tidal and started listening to electronica.



Subs have been moved to mid wall on the side walls since this pic. Speakers ('mains' to the HT fanbois) are still in the same in this position. I'm listening 65-70 degrees off axis, mostly to back wave.

"Take a look at the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170"

"In addition to being fully digital and having flexible upgrade modules and RoomPerfect™ room correction "

Those above four words eliminates any consideration of the above.

If I was still making what I made in SoCal, I'd have:

http://www.vac-amps.com/productPages...onoPreamp.html (after all who need a 120 pound $82,000 phono stage? I do!)
http://www.vac-amps.com/productPages...inePreamp.html
and a pair of these http://www.vac-amps.com/productPages...ent450_IQ.html

Last edited by Scotth3886; 12-16-2017 at 12:26 PM.
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post #74 of 171 Old 12-16-2017, 12:27 PM
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@Scotth3886 SVS usually covers return shipping. Is that not the case with the NSDs? Because of the special pricing?

Rythmik makes the subs which meet your requirements.

Why no horns (blanket statement)? Have you ever heard a horn-loaded sub? If I blindfolded you and you loved the Lyngdorf paired with Funk 15.h you kick ne out when you found out it was digital and horn loaded?

I'd love to see pictures of the room. You should cross-post pertinent information from the I Hate Subs thread into your thread. It is too much trouble for you to post you room dimensions and whether the room is sealed or open?
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post #75 of 171 Old 12-16-2017, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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@Scotth3886 SVS usually covers return shipping. Is that not the case with the NSDs? Because of the special pricing?

Rythmik makes the subs which meet your requirements.

Why no horns (blanket statement)? Have you ever heard a horn-loaded sub? If I blindfolded you and you loved the Lyngdorf paired with Funk 15.h you kick ne out when you found out it was digital and horn loaded?

I'd love to see pictures of the room. You should cross-post pertinent information from the I Hate Subs thread into your thread. It is too much trouble for you to post you room dimensions and whether the room is sealed or open?

"Have you ever heard a horn-loaded sub"

How fast can I run at age 74? Probably not fast enough.

"I'd love to see pictures of the room"

What did I just post in my previous post? Floor plan and room pic

I'll do it again full size

"It is too much trouble for you to post you room dimensions and whether the room is sealed or open"

I just did in thumbnail format in my previous post





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post #76 of 171 Old 12-16-2017, 12:50 PM
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Thanks Scott. Very nice setup. I hope you get the bass working to your satisfaction.
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post #77 of 171 Old 12-16-2017, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Scott. Very nice setup. I hope you get the bass working to your satisfaction.

Thanks. And yeah I know we haven't interacted before that I can recall, but we're universes apart, likely on everything so good luck to ya.
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post #78 of 171 Old 12-17-2017, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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It's here. So now we'll see what else I can screw up by day's end





I've never used REW so look out!
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post #79 of 171 Old 12-17-2017, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Holy schiit, listen to this, what must be a 12 yr old, explain all of this. Actually, listening to all of it. How in the hell did he learn all of this at this age. Must be one of these kids that start at MIT at age 10.


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post #80 of 171 Old 12-18-2017, 01:00 PM
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Holy schiit, listen to this, what must be a 12 yr old, explain all of this. Actually, listening to all of it. How in the hell did he learn all of this at this age. Must be one of these kids that start at MIT at age 10.

Is that @AustinJerry ?

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post #81 of 171 Old 12-18-2017, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Is that @AustinJerry?

I doubt it. Profile says AVS join date of 2003. That's would make the video kid not born yet.
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post #82 of 171 Old 12-18-2017, 02:23 PM
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SVS SB12-NSD subs - just got them

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I doubt it. Profile says AVS join date of 2003. That's would make the video kid not born yet.


Lol. Ah ok. I saw “Austin” on his shirt and thought maybe.....?

And AustinJerry is a pro at REW


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post #83 of 171 Old 12-20-2017, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Hopefully, later today I can started on this REW thing. One real basic question: I can see how the mic plugs in and all of that, but do the test sweeps that I'll be using come from some other source (such as that Tidal test tone album) or do they originate from the REW program? If so, how does it connect back to my amplifier? I notice that laptop has a HDMI output plus just about everything that I know exists, but the Hegel H100 doesn't have HDMI.


I have this (rear panel of the Hegel) to work with


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post #84 of 171 Old 12-20-2017, 07:31 AM
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I wouldn't accuse Seaton or JTR of being anything audiophile. That's the antithesis of audiophile. I sorta rank them right with JBL. I see those brands on speakers and/or subs and I'm outta there before I get hurt.

"as I know you don't listen nearly as loudly as I do"

I've gotten pretty abusive at times since I signed up for Tidal and started playing around with the electronica playlists. The ESL panels just keep going and going, but I could see that I was running out of woofer excursion, so on to subs. Got the ML w700 subs finally placed right, so even more is always better, right? This is where I get myself in trouble on whatever it is. I absolutely cannot leave well enough alone. Then I end up going backwards.

Well see, but I bet this causes me some 'up all nights" sorting this out. It's most noticeable on string bass, which is sure to drive me nuts (short drive as I always say).
Scotth3886

Have you personally heard both Seaton and JTR to come to that conclusion? I own a Rythmik Audio FHV15 and 4 Seaton Submersives and I can tell you that you are a bit off.
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post #85 of 171 Old 12-20-2017, 09:02 AM
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It appears you have the subs located almost in the middle of the room which is probably the worst location for them. It appears you're using them like directional speakers equidistant from the L and R speaker and facing the listener. They look nice this way but may be in the worst possible place.

Did you try the L and R corners behind the sofa? This places them closer to the listener. When you had them up in the front corners they were too far away from the mains.
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post #86 of 171 Old 12-20-2017, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Scotth3886

Have you personally heard both Seaton and JTR to come to that conclusion? I own a Rythmik Audio FHV15 and 4 Seaton Submersives and I can tell you that you are a bit off.

In your opinion of course.

And yes I've heard both. I leave the room.

"Rythmik"

That might be a lil closer to what I like, but I haven't 'knowingly' heard that one. Probably have been in a room where that was used, but didn't notice, and that's a very good thing.

If I had the width in the room, and well of course a much larger room overall, I'd be using electrostatic bass instead of cones.

Last edited by Scotth3886; 12-20-2017 at 09:18 AM.
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post #87 of 171 Old 12-20-2017, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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It appears you have the subs located almost in the middle of the room which is probably the worst location for them. It appears you're using them like directional speakers equidistant from the L and R speaker and facing the listener. They look nice this way but may be in the worst possible place.

Did you try the L and R corners behind the sofa? This places them closer to the listener. When you had them up in the front corners they were too far away from the mains.
I've explained several times that the pic is out of date and the subs are placed here. .... well mostly. The right sub is over near the right wall. I need to redo the floor plan again.




This worked and worked well. My current issue is that the SVS subs sound nowhere near what the ML700s do. After 40 or 50 hours of break-in, it is closer, but still clear advantage to the MLs. I did try using four subs with two in back and just the two in back. Didn't work well as that did some strange things with imaging, and I do run stereo subs.

This is why I got the Umik and REW loaded up ready to go. I want to see in detail what's up. I've been much busier this morning than I thought I'd be so hopefully, tonight I'll get a chance to give it a go.

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post #88 of 171 Old 12-20-2017, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
In your opinion of course.

And yes I've heard both. I leave the room.

"Rythmik"

That might be a lil closer to what I like, but I haven't 'knowingly' heard that one. Probably have been in a room where that was used, but didn't notice, and that's a very good thing.

If I had the width in the room, and well of course a much larger room overall, I'd be using electrostatic bass instead of cones.
It is actually an opinion shared by many here in the forums, albeit the conversation almost always slants more towards HT applications rather than two channel audio. What surprised me was that you were making the statement in the context of the SVS SB12s.. I have tried Seatons submersives and compared them to the Rythmik and while I prefer the Rythmik for music only applications, the Seatons weren't all the far behind.



At any rate. Best of luck in finding audio nirvana!
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post #89 of 171 Old 12-20-2017, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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It is actually an opinion shared by many here in the forums, albeit the conversation almost always slants more towards HT applications rather than two channel audio. What surprised me was that you were making the statement in the context of the SVS SB12s.. I have tried Seatons submersives and compared them to the Rythmik and while I prefer the Rythmik for music only applications, the Seatons weren't all the far behind.

At any rate. Best of luck in finding audio nirvana!

"albeit the conversation almost always slants more towards HT applications"

Yep, that's the issue ..... boom boom boom
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post #90 of 171 Old 12-20-2017, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Here, I updated the floor plan just a bit. This is where the right sub is now. I don't want it right up against the wall because I'll get some of that dreaded boom.


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