Cannot decide, A-S801 or R-N803 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
G'day Zillch. Yes, strangely neither Yamaha's product page nor owner's manual appear to make any mention of (digital) bass management capability. My guess is that this is because bass management capability has only fairly recently been added via a firmware release.
Thanks for the images. Also, to the best of my knowledge these controls don't exist unless you have the app so user's without smartphones, etc., miss out.

I suspect they don't talk about it because the target audience these units are made for would be appalled (if they knew) that their analog turntable signal is first being digitized and then returned back to analog before amplification.
---

I like how the app (in your images) asks, "Low cut filter for the mains?" rather than "Are they small or large?". Good move Yamaha! ALL units should use such wording because there's a tremendous percentage of users [we know from forum posts] who steadfastly refuse to, um, "demean" their speakers by referring to them as "small" despite the fact that anyone with a powered sub should be using bass management if their goal is to have an accurate bass response without an overlap area bump caused by "double bass".

"No way my speakers are 'puny'! I paid good money for them. Grr. ", says a large percentage of owners.
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post #32 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
wow. Thats really cool. Makes the N803 a no brainer for sure.
If you're in this market you could also consider the Onkyo TX-8270 ($500). It runs digital bass management as well, but unlike the Yamaha is video capable up to 4K/UltraHD via HDMI 2.0a/HDCP 2.2 (4 in/1 out).

Comparison: https://www.crutchfield.com/Product/...ms=01|022RN803.
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post #33 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Thanks for the images. Also, to the best of my knowledge these controls don't exist unless you have the app so user's without smartphones, etc., miss out.

I suspect they don't talk about it because the target audience these units are made for would be appalled (if they knew) that their analog turntable signal is first being digitized and then returned back to analog before amplification.
---

I like how the app (in your images) asks, "Low cut filter for the mains?" rather than "Are they small or large?". Good move Yamaha! ALL units should use such wording because there's a tremendous percentage of users [we know from forum posts] who steadfastly refuse to, um, "demean" their speakers by referring to them as "small" despite the fact that anyone with a powered sub should be using bass management if their goal is to have an accurate bass response without an overlap area bump caused by "double bass".

"No way my speakers are 'puny'! I paid good money for them. Grr. ", says a large percentage of owners.
What you are saying about the turntable signal would also apply to an analog CD signal? if yes, what is the overall effect on sound of the analog source?

I am torn between an A-S701 and the N-R803. I keep going toward the 803, but something about the 701 integrated hints at better analog quality, ability to drive tough loads and overall sound. My two sources for this system are CD and streaming internet radio. My Marantz is connected via RCA, but has digital connections I could use, if that would make a difference. Also, the system I want to use the amp with consists of Monitor Audio Bronze 2 and an SVS SB-12 NSD. I probably need the YPAO to be able to adjust bass response on the fly, when changing from internet to CD. Pandora bass is much stronger than the CD, and needs to be tamed down each time I switch sources.

Really not too concerned with double bass if I go integrated, as the bookshelves realistically only go down to 60 hz or so. Like I said, I would probably go with the 701 if I can effectively adjust the woofer without having to do so at the back of the subwoofer.

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post #34 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 04:06 PM
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What you are saying about the turntable signal would also apply to an analog CD signal?
Yes, any signal which arrives to the 803 in analog form [red/white RCA jacks] needs to be digitized if you use YPAO room correction and/or bass management sub out. Signals which arrive in pre-digitized form [ethernet jack, optical, and coax] don't need to go through this additional A to D conversion step. That's better at least in theory.

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if yes, what is the overall effect on sound of the analog source?
It's probably fairly innocuous in actuality and not something I personal would be concerned with but I can't speak for all.

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I am torn between an A-S701 and the N-R803. I keep going toward the 803, but something about the 701 integrated hints at better quality, ability to drive tough loads and overall sound.
I suspect there will be no real world difference in sound quality. I would need to see third party measurements to be dead sure though. Yamaha is generally a very good brand so I doubt they botched anything. They've made great units for decades so it's not like they are new to this. I think your decision should be based on features and current street price.

Buying a new receiver in this day and age without any HDMI connections, especially when we already know you already use some digital signals, seems like a mistake to me even if currently you don't happen to own any devices with HDMI. HDMI is becoming more and more prevalent and receivers last a long time so there could be a point a few years from now where you'll have to buy a whole new receiver because you avoided HDMI receivers back in 2017.

If you don't want surround sound then don't use it: they [HDMI capable AVRs] all work great as stereo or stereo + sub ("2.1") receivers, but oddly the HDMI receivers aren't really more expensive nor lower sound quality even though they have more stuff. They make a lot more HDMI capable AVRs than they do stereo only units so thanks to the "economy of scale" theory they are very affordable. Dealers often don't like recommending them because they are more of a commodity product to the industry and therefore have a lower profit margin; i.e., they make more money selling you a $500 stereo receiver than they do a $700 5.1ch AVR!

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #35 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Yes, any signal which arrives to the 803 in analog form [red/white RCA jacks] needs to be digitized if you use YPAO room correction and/or bass management sub out. Signals which arrive in pre-digitized form [ethernet jack, optical, and coax] don't need to go through this additional A to D conversion step. That's better at least in theory.



It's probably fairly innocuous in actuality and not something I personal would be concerned with but I can't speak for all.



I suspect there will be no real world difference in sound quality. I would need to see third party measurements to be dead sure though. Yamaha is generally a very good brand so I doubt they botched anything. They've made great units for decades so it's not like they are new to this. I think your decision should be based on features and current street price.

Buying a new receiver in this day and age without any HDMI connections, especially when we already know you already use some digital signals, seems like a mistake to me even if currently you don't happen to own any devices with HDMI. HDMI is becoming more and more prevalent and receivers last a long time so there could be a point a few years from now where you'll have to buy a whole new receiver because you avoided HDMI receivers back in 2017.

If you don't want surround sound then don't use it: they [HDMI capable AVRs] all work great as stereo or stereo + sub ("2.1") receivers, but oddly the HDMI receivers aren't really more expensive nor lower sound quality even though they have more stuff. They make a lot more HDMI capable AVRs than they do stereo only units so thanks to the "economy of scale" theory they are very affordable. Dealers often don't like recommending them because they are more of a commodity product to the industry and therefore have a lower profit margin; i.e., they make more money selling you a $500 stereo receiver than they do a $700 5.1ch AVR!
Thanks for the response. I am currently using an old Pioneer Elite VSX-21THX to drive my 2.1. Even though it is old, it still works well. I just thought I could save some shelf space, and push more clean power and possibly higher quality sound using a dedicated 2 channel receiver. I have read where people are using their 100 wpc Yamaha or 70 WPC Marantz integrated receivers to drive difficult speakers such as Polk RTi9. I own Monitor Audio Silver 8, and I would not think my Pioneer avr would do a good job pushing them. I expect a 100 wpc Yamaha A-S701 would push out more usable power than my 110 wpc avr, but I am just guessing. I guess that my point is that possibly the integrated specs are conservative? Power supply is likely also a factor.

All that aside, I currently use the remote from my AVR to adjust the subwoofer setting from -9 for Pandora, to around -5 for CD play. If I went with the Yamaha integrated, do you guys think I could I get a similar bass volume effect using the bass tone control and/or the Loudness control? Thanks all for your time and advice.

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post #36 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 04:44 PM
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Your Pioneer is no slouch and the fact that it is THX certified means they can't really lie about the output spec, at least when driving stereo. Are you saying it is currently set up at this location and you are not satisfied? Or you haven't even tried it yet?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #37 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Your Pioneer is no slouch and the fact that it is THX certified means they can't really lie about the output spec, at least when driving stereo. Are you saying it is currently set up at this location and you are not satisfied? Or you haven't even tried it yet?
That is what I am currently using. I am satisfied with it, but the system could always be better. Part of the problem is I am trying to get closer to the performance of my Anthem/Monitor Audio Silver 8 system at approx 1/3 the cost.

I currently am using the Klipsch RP-160 speakers. I have the MA Bronze 2 on order and will use them in the 2.1. The Klipsch will be returned to rear speaker duty in my 5.1 system. I was not overly impressed with them as mains in the 2.1. Hopefully the. Monitor Audio bookshelf speakers are smoother at the top end.

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post #38 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 06:44 PM
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There is a common notion that AVRs have inferior sound to integrated amps or separates. This is a myth perpetuated because AVRs have a lower profit margin to retailers.
That is 130% wrong. Not only is that not the reason the "notion" spread, it's also not true about them having any kind of different profit margin. Don't spread bad information. You were wrong about the 803 not having bass management too, but I'll let that slide.

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post #39 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 06:55 PM
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That is 130% wrong. Not only is that not the reason the "notion" spread, it's also not true about them having any kind of different profit margin. Don't spread bad information. You were wrong about the 803 not having bass management too, but I'll let that slide.
Which brings me to the real question behind me considering replacing my AVR with a 2 channel amplifier or receiver. Will a dedicated two channel amp provide superior 2 channel audio performance vs. a 5 or 7 channel AVR used in stereo mode? I kind of think yes, but I am only guessing.

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post #40 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 07:39 PM
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That is 130% wrong. Not only is that not the reason the "notion" spread, it's also not true about them having any kind of different profit margin. Don't spread bad information.
So according to you all goods in audio have roughly the same profit margin? . . . Did a dealer tell you that?
It's OK, I can make fun of them since I was a high end (and mid-fi) dealer for a little over two decades myself, hence I was privy to dealer costs.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #41 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 07:46 PM
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Will a dedicated two channel amp provide superior 2 channel audio performance vs. a 5 or 7 channel AVR used in stereo mode?
When you get your answer, be sure they can back it up with numbers. Here's an analogy: If I tell you my car can do 0-60 faster that your car but I refuse to show you the data, test report, etc. what does that tell you about my claim?
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post #42 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 08:26 PM
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If I tell you my car can do 0-60 faster that your car but I refuse to show you the data, test report, etc. what does that tell you about my claim?
Ahhh....the butt dyno!

Kids standing around a Civic time. "Yeah, I changed the air filter for 20 more horsepower and put that new muffler on for at least another 25 or 30 HP--I could tell instantly and I smoked a Mustang the other week and....

Uhhhh...did you run it on a dyno (or for the Brits a "rolling road") ???

Oh heck no! I don't need no stinking measurements, I trust my golden arse!

I take stock in trust your ears about as much as I believe in the butt dyno... they are all machines so measurements please!

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post #43 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 08:39 PM
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That is 130% wrong. Not only is that not the reason the "notion" spread, it's also not true about them having any kind of different profit margin. Don't spread bad information. You were wrong about the 803 not having bass management too, but I'll let that slide.

Somewhat true. Many or most were 40 point lines with cheap carts being higher and high end carts around 40 - 50 points. Cables were also higher, but it was very early in the esoteric cable days. There were 'spiffs' on certain products within a line from time to time, but still 40 points was a pretty accurate average. This was four+ decades that I worked for a dealer (four stores based out of Cincinnati, two in Columbus and two in Cincy (that should tell folks who have been around for a while who it was)). When I was a bleeding edge high end dealer, I think everything of the few lines I had were 40 points.

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post #44 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 08:49 PM
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So according to you all goods in audio have roughly the same profit margin? . . . Did a dealer tell you that?
It's OK, I can make fun of them since I was a high end (and mid-fi) dealer for a little over two decades myself, hence I was privy to dealer costs.
I like how you spin what I said to include "all goods in audio" -- a sign of true credibility on your end.
Did they not give you access to the price books? Electronics margin is almost 100% the same. Especially on receivers/integrated amps.
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Did they not give you access to the price books? Electronics margin is almost 100% the same. Especially on receivers/integrated amps.

40 points

Again, excluding 'spiffs' on soon to be discontinued, etc etc.

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post #46 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 09:26 PM
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Yeah 40 points was largely about the average of it all and is what falls in the center of this chart I posted in another thread
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Here's the ascending order, generally speaking:

video gear________________$
audio gear, mainstream______$$
audio gear, high end_________$$$
speakers (and also furniture) __$$$$
accessories (including wires)___$$$$$

The profit margin is so low on video that two of the local audiophile salons near me don't even sell it, at all, and they even disparage it if you bring it up: "I can't remember the last time I watched TV", one of them said to me recently.
Some cartridges were like accessories on steroids.

Does anyone else here reading this also have high end dealers near them that won't touch anything regarding video?
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post #47 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 09:34 PM
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Yeah 40 points was largely about the average of it all and is what falls in the center of this chart I posted in another thread


Some cartridges were like accessories on steroids.

Does anyone else here reading this also have high end dealers near them that won't touch anything regarding video?

AJ and Lyra 40 points
Koetsu 50 points
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post #48 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 09:58 PM
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Somewhat true. Many or most were 40 point lines with cheap carts being higher and high end carts around 40 - 50 points. . . . . This was four+ decades that I worked for a dealer (four stores based out of Cincinnati, two in Columbus and two in Cincy (that should tell folks who have been around for a while who it was)). When I was a bleeding edge high end dealer, I think everything of the few lines I had were 40 points.
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AJ and Lyra 40 points
Koetsu 50 points
I've never heard of this (I presume cartridge) brand you carried "AJ". Is that short for something else?
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post #49 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 10:08 PM
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I've never heard of this (I presume cartridge) brand you carried "AJ". Is that short for something else?

Yes. AJ was pretty well known back in 80s and 90s. The cart (Grasshopper) my housekeeper yanked the stylus out with her feather duster. Dutch guy. Sill alive.
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post #50 of 149 Old 12-20-2017, 10:10 PM
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AJ Van den Hul
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Oh, van den Hul. I believe you are the only person on the planet to refer to the company affiliated with Aalt Jouk van den Hul as "AJ". "Van den Hul" is how the rest of the world says it. [Of course a simple link to anyone else referring to the company (not the dude) as "AJ" could easily prove me wrong.]

Out of curiosity, did the Lyra have the gauze bandage on the bottom back when you sold them and roughly when was that?

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LOL @ Speakers and furniture having the same margin. 🤣
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post #53 of 149 Old 12-21-2017, 02:33 AM
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Which Yamaha YPAO device is it you use?
Neither, I looked into it though when they came out with it. I had already just purchased an Anthem MRX-520. I use the same feature on the anthem (Dolby Volume), and I had a Denon and I used Dynamic EQ.

From the Yamaha Manual:

VOL (YPAO Volume)
Enables/disables the YPAO volume function. When the YPAO Volume function is enabled, the high- and low- frequency levels are automatically adjusted according to the volume so that you can enjoy natural sounds even at low volume.

Loudness Control: Retain a full tonal range at any volume level, thus compensating for the human ears’ loss of sensitivity to high and low-frequency ranges at low volume.

This is the same function, so it's natural the Yamaha would disable loudness control with YPAO volume where implemented.

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post #54 of 149 Old 12-21-2017, 03:41 AM
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Oh, van den Hul. I believe you are the only person on the planet to refer to the company affiliated with Aalt Jouk van den Hul as "AJ". "Van den Hul" is how the rest of the world says it. [Of course a simple link to anyone else referring to the company (not the dude) as "AJ" could easily prove me wrong.]

Out of curiosity, did the Lyra have the gauze bandage on the bottom back when you sold them and roughly when was that?

Ahhh, testing me, are ya?

Was being coy. I know what the rest of the world refers to him as and that alone is a good enough reason for me not to do that for the purposes of this thread. Not much different than your 'for ten points' posts such as the 'first ten band equalizer for home' thread.

My Lyra days, the big seller was the Clavis and the fad then was to remove the body from the cart, but no gauze. The Clavis I believe was early 90s, maybe 1991, but not sure anymore.

Last edited by Scotth3886; 12-21-2017 at 03:52 AM.
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post #55 of 149 Old 12-21-2017, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Contuzzi View Post
LOL @ Speakers and furniture having the same margin. 🤣

Speakers to the best of my feeble old memory were also 40 points for the most part. IIRC, the entire Yamaha home audio line was 40 points. And again, I wasn't the dealer, but a salesperson in a four store chain. Again, I'm going back four decades or so I might be full of whatever it is that geezers are full of. I think even Magneplanar was 40 points with a salespersons' accommodation of 50 points.

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post #56 of 149 Old 12-21-2017, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I've never heard of this (I presume cartridge) brand you carried "AJ". Is that short for something else?

And btw, you're also putting words in my mouth. Other than one brand of speakers, I've never said what brands 'I carried'. That doesn't mean that I didn't know what dealer cost was on much of what was out there. That's why CES was 'trade only'.
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Many or most were 40 point lines with cheap carts being higher and high end carts around 40 - 50 points. . . . but still 40 points was a pretty accurate average. This was four+ decades that I worked for a dealer .
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AJ and Lyra 40 points
Koetsu 50 points
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
And btw, you're also putting words in my mouth. Other than one brand of speakers, I've never said what brands 'I carried'. That doesn't mean that I didn't know what dealer cost was on much of what was out there. That's why CES was 'trade only'.
I see. Your sentence immediately following your discussion of cartridge profit margins, "This was four+ decades that I worked for a dealer", then followed in the next post with specifics for van den Hul (called "AJ"), Lyra, and Koetsu, should not be misconstrued by us forum readers to mean your knowledge of these cartridge profit margins is because your company carried them. Your knowledge rather came from trade shows such as CES. Thanks for clearing that up.
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post #58 of 149 Old 12-21-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I see. Your sentence immediately following your discussion of cartridge profit margins, "This was four+ decades that I worked for a dealer", then followed in the next post with specifics for van den Hul (called "AJ"), Lyra, and Koetsu, should not be misconstrued by us forum readers to mean your knowledge of these cartridge profit margins is because your company carried them. Your knowledge rather came from trade shows such as CES. Thanks for clearing that up.

"This was four+ decades that I worked for a dealer"

I left out the word 'ago'. The dealer I worked for was here and Cincy with two stores here and two in Cincy. I moved to SoCal in 1980. Van den Hul wasn't around as a company until 1980 and Lyra, 1982 IIRC.

"should not be misconstrued by us forum readers to mean your knowledge of these cartridge profit margins is because your company carried them"

Correct.

"Your knowledge rather came from trade shows such as CES"

Correct. Enough of it. That's one of the big reasons for these 'trade only' shows. Always looking at lines for when I became a dealer instead of working for a dealer. And also it was a 'family' reunion of sorts to see all of the high end manufactures (peeps) that I had known throughout the years. Was attendee at the CES since the Summer CES was in NYC, then Chicago, then Las Vegas for the Winter CES until seven or eight years ago when shows such Axpona became the thing.

"Thanks for clearing that up"

You're very welcome, Mark.

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post #59 of 149 Old 12-21-2017, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post
Neither, I looked into it though when they came out with it. I had already just purchased an Anthem MRX-520. I use the same feature on the anthem (Dolby Volume), and I had a Denon and I used Dynamic EQ.

From the Yamaha Manual:

VOL (YPAO Volume)
Enables/disables the YPAO volume function. When the YPAO Volume function is enabled, the high- and low- frequency levels are automatically adjusted according to the volume so that you can enjoy natural sounds even at low volume.

Loudness Control: Retain a full tonal range at any volume level, thus compensating for the human ears’ loss of sensitivity to high and low-frequency ranges at low volume.

This is the same function, so it's natural the Yamaha would disable loudness control with YPAO volume where implemented.
Thank you for elaborating. Although I'm intimately familiar with the psychoacoustic principals at play and various schemes to address them over the years, since I no longer regularly attend technical seminars designed for dealers when these various technologies are released from vendors which one carries, I had to do a little research, just now, to get the jargon (lingo) down.

YPAO and YPAO Volume are not the same thing and it would really annoy me that by my read of the owner's manual Torakusu does not allow their spectacularly well designed variable loudness knob [I've highly praised in previous posts] to function if YPAO is used. Bummer.

Sure, I totally get what you are saying that it would by redundant however it is redundant to YPAO Volume, not YPAO itself.

I had given Torakusu a pass that this knob didn't work, in fact wasn't even included, on their 5.1 and up receivers because it is much harder to implement correctly, but we're talking about a 2ch product here. Plus their bass and treble knobs still work while YPAO is on so the signal is still passing through the manual tone control circuitry. No excuse, Torakusu!

What a lot of people don't get is that the Fletcher-Munson curves are averages of many people lumped together for a given exposure level of fixed tones. It is a one-size fits all approach which may be better than nothing but you know what trumps it? Giving each user an infinitely variable control accessed via an easy to finely adjust rotary knob. This approach blows away these "idiot light" methods of "Do you want group-averaged equal loudness curve compensation on or off?" which on top of being averages of several humans also makes some pretty crude assumptions about the level coming in. NOT ALL CDs ARE RECORDED AT THE SAME LEVEL. Audyssey at least throws in one extra step of letting the user select a 10 dB, IIRC, inflection point selection for their analogous Dynamic EQ control, but I find that still doesn't cut it.

What does work 100% of the time? An infinitely variable knob you rotate to taste, by ear, on the fly, per recording.

P.S. When looking up Mr. Yamaha's first name I learned his dad was a real deal Samurai warrior. Cool.

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Torakusu Yamaha's first company name was (and I swear I'm not making this up): Yamaha Fukin (Organ) Manufacturing Company

That's fukin awesome.


In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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