Cannot decide, A-S801 or R-N803 - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 149 Old 01-23-2018, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicmanmoe View Post
I got my unit

1. Sub is engaged when pure direct is used
2. Firmware installed with no problem
3. YPAO ran with no concerns
4. The bass management in the app does not show up until firmware is updated and YPAO ran
5. With YPAO engaged and pure direct pressed it just eliminates the eqing not the distances and levels
Thanks for the update. How did you update the firmware?

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post #122 of 149 Old 01-23-2018, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by raceredmustang View Post
Thanks for the update. How did you update the firmware?
+1 on that. Please share the exact steps you took.
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post #123 of 149 Old 01-24-2018, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by planed View Post
+1 on that. Please share the exact steps you took.
1. plugged in unit
2. plugged in ethernet cable
3. screen stated firmware was available
4. pressed display
5 process finished in about 5-7 minutes
6. Unplugged the unit
7. Turned it back on
8. Golden
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post #124 of 149 Old 01-24-2018, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicmanmoe View Post
1. plugged in unit
2. plugged in ethernet cable
3. screen stated firmware was available
4. pressed display
5 process finished in about 5-7 minutes
6. Unplugged the unit
7. Turned it back on
8. Golden
That's encouraging to hear. Thanks. I will have to look at the manual again. Is #6, unplugging the unit part of the written update process?

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post #125 of 149 Old 01-24-2018, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by raceredmustang View Post
That's encouraging to hear. Thanks. I will have to look at the manual again. Is #6, unplugging the unit part of the written update process?
Dont think so, its just something I do when I update any firmware
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post #126 of 149 Old 01-24-2018, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicmanmoe View Post
1. plugged in unit
2. plugged in ethernet cable
3. screen stated firmware was available
4. pressed display
5 process finished in about 5-7 minutes
6. Unplugged the unit
7. Turned it back on
8. Golden
This is exactly what I needed! I think my failures were an user error. I think on step 4 I have been pressing OK/Enter button simply because the display states "New FW Available [ENTER]" or something similar but the "[ENTER]" is there and that is why it is confusing. And it looks like you can't start the firmware update process from the remote. Thanks a lot!

Last edited by planed; 01-24-2018 at 04:32 PM.
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post #127 of 149 Old 01-24-2018, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planed View Post
This is exactly what I needed! I think my failures were an user error. I think on step 4 I have been pressing OK/Enter button simply because the display says "New Firmware [ENTER]" or something similar but the "[ENTER]" is there and that is why it is confusing. And it looks like you can't start the firmware update process from the remote. Thanks a lot!
Can you please let us know if it works for you? I am very interested. Probably not the only one. Thanks! 🤔

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Last edited by raceredmustang; 01-24-2018 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Spelling
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post #128 of 149 Old 01-24-2018, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by raceredmustang View Post
Can you please let us know if it works for you? I am very interested. Probably not the only one. Thanks! 🤔
As soon as new firmware is released.
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post #129 of 149 Old 01-24-2018, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by planed View Post
As soon as new firmware is released.
My bad. I didn't know you had. The December update. Last that I remember, I don't think the OP has updated yet. I will PM him and see if this works for him.

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post #130 of 149 Old 01-24-2018, 10:44 PM
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So let me get this straight. If I connect a higher-end CD player like an Oppo, or a turntable, via the analogue outs, then the N803 will still be altering the signal by doing an A-D-A conversion? Is this the compromise we must make to take advantage of YPAO room correction with this unit.
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post #131 of 149 Old 01-24-2018, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cla55clown View Post
So let me get this straight. If I connect a higher-end CD player like an Oppo, or a turntable, via the analogue outs, then the N803 will still be altering the signal by doing an A-D-A conversion?
I suspect this is indeed the case because according to recent posts in the thread selecting "Pure Direct" does not kill the subwoofer out and nearly everyone these days does their bass management in the digital domain, also supported by the fact that there's a phone app in this case. The few companies that do bass management using analog electronics usually have rotary knobs to adjust the crossover (and level, if provided. . . .I guess they don't have any delay option) for the sub out:

and they usually make it a point to brag about this analog circuit in their advertisements since the clientele they are shooting for feel digitization is "bad".

P.S. ~99.9% of all modern music we buy was at one point in its life digital, BTW. [Psst, even most LP records.]

P.P.S. Some other companies, including some other Yamaha units, deal with this dilemma by giving the owner the option to not digitize by use of the "Pure Direct" option, but maybe they got tired of the endless stream of phone calls from customers complaining that their sub outs didn't work when they used Pure Direct so Yamaha decided to just digitize under all scenarios to end those phone calls.

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post #132 of 149 Old 01-25-2018, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cla55clown View Post
So let me get this straight. If I connect a higher-end CD player like an Oppo, or a turntable, via the analogue outs, then the N803 will still be altering the signal by doing an A-D-A conversion? Is this the compromise we must make to take advantage of YPAO room correction with this unit.
I'm afraid so, just like an AVR in that respect. So if your are using an oppo and playing CDs, I'd suggest using optical connections and send the data digitally, at least avoid the oppo doing d/a and then the yamaha doing a/d, processing then doing d/a. If you are playing sacds that won't work, you'll need to send analog. But everything else would benefit from sending via optical (or coax) and eliminate 2 conversions along the way, with just one final d/a in the yamaha. Of course you can't do that with vinyl. If you use optical or coax from a oppo, then buy the 03 unit (103 or 203) and not the 05 units.

What I wish yamaha had done is put some hdmi connections in this unit. Many people use blu ray universal players for sources for CD, SACD, high rez downloads and movies with 2 channel rigs. Not everyone, myself included has the desire for surround sound, we just want quality sound. Arcam actually makes a stereo AVR, with hdmi inputs and outputs and uses dirac room correction, however, it's about 3500 bucks as I recall. I was searching for just a type unit for a while and found the arcam and lyngdorf. Both are 2 channel, hdmi inputs and have room correction. The lyngdorf would have been 4399 with hdmi module. I decided to just go with a Anthem MRX-520, a high end avr with great sonic quality, room correction and it's only 5.1 so I"m not wasting on a lot of channels I'm not using, and I saved a butt load of money on not buying an arcam and lyngdorf. (Anthem was 1399). The yamaha had not come out yet when I was shopping and I might have gone with that and saved even more. I don't do vinyl, so the d/a thing is not a big concern to me and I'm not sure you'd notice the extra a/d and d/a anyway. You may get more sonic benefit from the room correction than degradation from the conversions.

Mr Zilch is right most vinyl today has spent some time in the digital domain somewhere, unless you have a bunch or records manufactured in the 70s. Even the Beatles 2009 remaster on vinyl was originally sourced from 44/16 masters, (I don't know why when they had a 192/24 master). They have since corrected that blunder and sourced a vinyl set from the original tape, avoiding the digital domain altogether.

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post #133 of 149 Old 01-27-2018, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by raceredmustang View Post
My bad. I didn't know you had. The December update. Last that I remember, I don't think the OP has updated yet. I will PM him and see if this works for him.
So here is a short video of what happens when I try to update via musicmanmoe's method of hitting display instead of enter.


As you can see, hitting display does not work. I can hit enter and go thru to initiate the update but it just restarts and says update available again.

Next attempt I pressed power while holding down return to pull up advanced settings, and this is how that goes:


And finally, doing the same process with advanced settings but using a USB instead:


Pressing display to start the update only works when in advanced settings, but once I hit that, nothing else happens. I have to cycle the power to get things back up and working again.
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post #134 of 149 Old 01-27-2018, 12:48 PM
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@mech5700 , yes, this is exactly what I have been seeing with my device as well. I have done everything you did dozens of times and got the same result. At some point it worked. Something is not right. Thanks for the videos! Did you try holding the Display button for 1-2 seconds?
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post #135 of 149 Old 01-27-2018, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I have and it does not make a difference.

When you go to check your FW version, is it 1.08?
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post #136 of 149 Old 01-27-2018, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mech5700 View Post
So here is a short video of what happens when I try to update via musicmanmoe's method of hitting display instead of enter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcvBMp9qe1U

As you can see, hitting display does not work. I can hit enter and go thru to initiate the update but it just restarts and says update available again.

Next attempt I pressed power while holding down return to pull up advanced settings, and this is how that goes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYA8ZhJM2OA

And finally, doing the same process with advanced settings but using a USB instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDTvdSmTpe0

Pressing display to start the update only works when in advanced settings, but once I hit that, nothing else happens. I have to cycle the power to get things back up and working again.
Thanks for the update. Disappointing result. I have talked to Yamaha tech support and they insist there is no problem. Hopefully someone from Yamaha sees your videos and can provide a solution. I would love to purchase one, but don't need the hassle. I will just stick with my AVR for now. Maybe a nice sale on an integrated will pop up for Presidents Day.

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post #137 of 149 Old 01-27-2018, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mech5700 View Post
I have and it does not make a difference.

When you go to check your FW version, is it 1.08?
Yes, mine shows version 1.08.

OK, so I just played a little with mine and I think I figured it out:

1. Press "Return" button and "Power on" in order to go to the Advanced Settings
2. Go to "Update" and select "Network" (assuming you have connected your device to your network)
3. Press the "Display" button
The device will turn off!
4. Press and hold the "Display" button for 3-5 seconds. Basically until the unit turns on. The update process should start.

Please try this and let me know. If you can make a video it would be great.
This procedure initiates the update process on my unit despite the fact that there is no new firmware. But I do see that the firmware is being verified (with a progress bar) and at the end I see that the update has completed successfully and the display tells me to restart the unit.

Last edited by planed; 01-27-2018 at 01:11 PM.
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post #138 of 149 Old 01-27-2018, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by planed View Post
Yes, mine shows version 1.08.

OK, so I just played a little with mine and I think I figured it out:

1. Press "Return" button and "Power on" in order to go to the Advanced Settings
2. Go to "Update" and select "Network" (assuming you have connected your device to your network)
3. Press the "Display" button
The device will turn off!
4. Press and hold the "Display" button for 3-5 seconds. Basically until the unit turns on. The update process should start.

Please try this and let me know. This procedure initiates the update process on my unit despite the fact that there is no new firmware. But I do see that the firmware is being verified with the progress bar and everything and at the end I see that the update has completed successfully and the display tells me to restart the unit.

Strange, I did your steps 1-3 but in a matter of a few seconds, and instead of turning off it said NETWORK UPDATE, and then went thru the verifying process and is now in progress... didn't have to hold display or anything, literally the same process as I did in video #2 but I did it quickly.
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post #139 of 149 Old 01-27-2018, 01:20 PM
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Glad it worked. Now someone has to call Yamaha tech support, show them these videos and ask them what we are doing wrong. I executed steps 1-4 three times already and it seems to work every time.
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post #140 of 149 Old 01-27-2018, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Success!
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post #141 of 149 Old 01-28-2018, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by planed View Post
Glad it worked. Now someone has to call Yamaha tech support, show them these videos and ask them what we are doing wrong. I executed steps 1-4 three times already and it seems to work every time.
Maybe a Yamaha tech support agent was checking out the thread and was like, "oh crap we forgot to turn on the update server!" *flips switch*
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post #142 of 149 Old 01-28-2018, 01:09 PM
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Maybe a Yamaha tech support agent was checking out the thread and was like, "oh crap we forgot to turn on the update server!" *flips switch*
If that was the case we would not have had the problem with starting the update process. The update process would have started with no drama but the download would be the one failing. In our case once we manage to get the update process started (which is the difficult part) everything goes flawless afterwards.

I really hope that this is a problem with the old firmware versions (1.05-1.07) and it is something they have fixed in 1.08 (and don't want to admit). Only the future will tell. I don't think they did a good job describing the firmware update process in the manual. I find the whole manual not very well written in general. It looks to me that the manual has been translated by a non-native English speaker instead of being written from a native English speaker from the ground up. What pisses me off the most is the fact that there is no changelog with every new firmware version. This is just plain stupid and goes to show you how they treat and underestimate their customers. Maybe it is just me, but I come from the IT world where Release Notes and a Changelog are a must have when you release a new version.

I am still very happy with this unit and I am still recommending it. At least until they release something like A-S1100 with optical, coaxial and USB inputs in which case I will be the first in line to buy it. The finicky update process should not push you away from buying it IMO.
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post #143 of 149 Old 01-28-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by planed View Post
It looks to me that the manual has been translated by a non-native English speaker instead of being written from a native English speaker from the ground up.
I love Yamaha in some ways but their manuals and in-house techno-jargon is atrocious. For instance, on their AVRs if one wanted to listen to plain-Jane, completely unadulterated Dolby Digital 5.1 you might think that "Standard" is the proper setting, right? Wrong! "Standard" is the name of one of their gimmicky echo modes. Worthless from my perspective but downright misleading to 99% of buyers. Think of how many people will quite understandably select that and proceed to get a completely false introduction as to what DD 5.1 really sounds like at home!
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post #144 of 149 Old 01-28-2018, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by planed View Post
until they release something like A-S1100 with optical, coaxial and USB inputs in which case I will be the first in line to buy it. The finicky update process should not push you away from buying it IMO.
a-s1100 went on shelf on 2016, that is , about a little bit more than a year ago

and for this reason
the best possible solution for the time being
is to get an a-s1100 AND a wxc-50
NOW

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post #145 of 149 Old 09-22-2018, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mech5700 View Post
I can't give input to the YPAO and Pure Direct relationship as I have not yet tried YPAO, but I do use Pure Direct and it does not disable the sub-out.
Hi,
Pure direct is possible to enable thru remote control?

Sent from my BND-AL10 using Tapatalk
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post #146 of 149 Old 05-02-2019, 07:10 PM
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Old thread but new owner.

I just picked up the R-N803
It’s replacing an NAD c356bee and an NAD C510 preamp (same guts as the NAD M51 from the masters range) I was using the C510 driving the power section of the c356 because the volume control on the c356 is not great via the remote control at very low volume and the c510 volume control is extremely good down to silence.


Anyway - I wanted to try something with a variable loudness control and this unit gives me 2 options for this function - they both work great. I could find no other amp at any price with both digital and analog variable loudness. I’m not missing the other setup. This amp sounds the same to me with no eq.

For you folks using the loudness settings I have some questions.

How low do you go ?
My room is very small - 10x10 ft - I often listen at very low volume - like 40db measured at the listening position. (Phone app spl meter)
The automatic ypao volume sounds pretty great down to about -43db on the dial - any lower and it starts to get muddy.
If I disable ypao volume and use the manual loudness control - I can set the volume dial to -30db to -35db and take it down another 18db (a little over 1/2 way from flat) on the loudness control and it still sounds good - far better than -48 to -50db with no loudness compensation and less muddy than the automatic loudness option.
When I use the manual control I also disable the ypao eq but leave the ypao distance and level enabled so as to return the mid bass bump from my harbeth bookshelf speakers.
Just wondering how others use the loudness options and how low it works in your setup before it starts to turn to the music to mud.
Thanks
JJK
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post #147 of 149 Old 05-02-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JJK1 View Post
My room is very small - 10x10 ft - I often listen at very low volume - like 40db measured at the listening position. (Phone app spl meter)
Wow, that is quiet. I can see why you want loudness compensation.

I don't own this unit however I am familiar with Yamaha manual loudness knobs because I was a dealer. I think they are some of the best at implementing this feature but one of the worst at describing to customers how to use it optimally. It is also unfortunate that its rotation is not from remote yet when used properly you aren't allowed to alter the master volume knob anymore once set properly, and need to leave it fixed, except for perhaps minor tweaks. All changes must be done with the loudness knob or you'll mess up your initial calibration of step 1 below.

I describe the procedure here.

The initial volume you start from which I describe in step 1 needs to be at a full, rich level which you may deem objectionably loud and boisterous, based on your described typical use of "~40 dBSPL" according to your phone app, so if you keep the level low to avoid waking people you may need to set this initial setting I speak of during the day, when you can make some noise for a minute.

Give it a go and let us know what you think.

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post #148 of 149 Old 05-03-2019, 11:47 AM
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Thanks for the reply zillch
 
I was looking for posted measurements for Yamaha “manual” loudness and can’t really find any info. I found an article indicating that Yamaha yapo loudness starts at -20DB of volume.
I am wondering if, for example the loudness dial adds x-dB of bass and treble at –x on the loudness dial, if that holds true across the volume setting –
Say you get +3dB of bass and treble at -30dB on the volume dial and -15dB on the loudness dial, do you still get +3db of bass and treble at -35dB on the volume dial with loudness left at -15dB?
 
Is it the loudness compensation the same % vs. flat across the volume dial if left alone?
So say you set the loudness at -15db and that gives you (for example) +3db in the bass region. Is -15db of loudness always adding 3db to the bass vs flat where flat is always whatever the master volume is set to?
Anyway – I like the options this amp provides.
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post #149 of 149 Old 05-03-2019, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJK1 View Post
I was looking for posted measurements for Yamaha “manual” loudness and can’t really find any info.
It is likely the manual loudness knob works like it did on this int. amp they once made called the CA-1000, which has its various settings charted in the center section of the image below:

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Last edited by m. zillch; 05-03-2019 at 12:30 PM.
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