Audiophile Turntable 101: Acoustic Research AR-XA - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 27Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 90 Old 12-21-2018, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Audiophile Turntable 101: Acoustic Research AR-XA

Through a series of comprehensive, objective science tests I demonstrate what makes the legendary AR-XA turntable top-notch, even by today's standards, in my Youtube turntable tutorial. Some of the performance tests I conduct in this video must be listened to either with full-size headphones or with large speakers (or subwoofer system) capable of ~30Hz deep bass, in a dead quiet room. Otherwise you won't properly hear the improvement the AR turntable offers.
WARNING: Some of the tests are EXTREME "obstacle courses" which could put your stylus in peril. [Good point Scott.]

Time marks of the objective demo/tests, with clickable links if watched at Youtube [or in post 37]:

4:27 - sub-chassis ground strap to dissipate static charges [just a still photograph of it, no demo], reducing pops and ticks
4:57 - neutral balance tonearm (instead of typical stable balance) maintaining a non-varying tracking force even on dips/warps
8:54 - heavy platter for momentum (speed regulation) yet light enough to be driven with a precision, synchronous clock motor
10:36 - An added perk of the neutral balance arm is the constant tracking force obtained even if the XA is relocated to a tilted shelf in the room.
13:14 - ULTRA low mass, acrylic headshell for low inertial mass in order to track difficult/imperfect records
14:13 - very rigid and inflexible, "box-construction" headshell design to minimize microscopic flexing (distortion) despite its low mass
16:27 - AR's white paper "Skating Force: Mountain or Molehill?"- R. S. Oakley Jr., Audio magazine, Mar. 1967 summarized: waveform tests show it's unimportant if using an adequate tracking force from the get go, however a DIY design like a weight suspended by a thread draped over a bent paper clip, attached to the arm, may be added for those who are still concerned.
https://www.americanradiohistory.com...io-1967-03.pdf
17:15 - Dead accurate speed and very low wow & flutter, including actual stylus drag during the test. [Even with oxide on this one's pulley and a cheap, aftermarket belt instead of AR's original belt, which were frozen solid and then machined on both sides for precise surface uniformity.]
19:51 - Despite looking flat, a closer examination reveals that micro warps (surface bumps/dips) exist on most LPs. This is why the AR-XA keeps its pivot height much lower than the competition in order to minimize "warp wow". A demo compares the XA pivot height to that of a $28,000 tonearm using a 1 kHz test tone on the CBS STR-100 test record with an artificial warp.
28:15 - immunity to shock and vibration hammer test.
32:07 - Acoustic feedback "howl" immunity even at VERY high playback levels and when mounting close to, or even ON a speaker, including immunity to incipient acoustic feedback distortion, preventing boominess and murkiness, found at lower playback volumes with some designs
38:35 - Ultra low mass headshell/arm: McProud Test at 33 RPM. [WARNING: May fling the arm off the record and damage the stylus on the competition!]
40:35 - Full-size, NAB broadcast quality spindle diameter to minimize groove eccentricity wow.
42:07 - Artificially induced 1mm eccentricity audibility demonstrated

THE FOLLOWING TEST REQUIRES EITHER SPEAKERS WITH GOOD, DEEP BASS IN A QUIET ROOM OR FULL SIZE HEADPHONES.

43:38
- 3-pt. floating sub-chassis immunity to ROOM noise rumble, not reflected in a traditional rumble spec. [An ON/OFF demo of the suspension shows what it eliminates via spectral analysis.]

50:37 - Nailing wood on the top plate [aka the "plinth"] demo!
---

"Despite being cheap, the AR turned out to be the single most important turntable of all time." -HiFi News Magazine [the oldest HiFi magazine in the world and I believe the largest in the UK] May, 2009, page 41. Note: their veteran reviewer who wrote these words has reviewed turntables which cost $100,000, so he is intimately familiar with price-no-object designs.
pjp and Scotth3886 like this.

Last edited by m. zillch; 12-07-2019 at 01:48 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 02:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,409
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4095 Post(s)
Liked: 2565
Just a warning !!!!

Don't try the speed test at 45rpm because it will sling your phone off into your cartridge.

How do I know this? Yep.
m. zillch likes this.

Last edited by Scotth3886; 12-22-2018 at 07:42 AM.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #3 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 11:00 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,409
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4095 Post(s)
Liked: 2565
At least this was on my cheap table and cart. I tried this with and without a LP on the table and the stylus in the groove. Strange thing is with the LP and the stylus in contact, it lowered wow and flutter by .02.

So on the Musical Fidelity Roundtable its wow and flutter of .08 with no LP and .06 with, which I think is ok for a table I paid $299 for new.

Then I got the brilliant idea that I would try the same thing using 45rpm. I had the phone flat in the center up on a tape roll to clear the center spindle and the stylus on the first cut. Started the app. The stylus was already down and then started the table. Not wise at all. My housekeepers wouldn't have been this stupid. Not going to try this on the big table.

I'm listening to a LP on it now. Don't think I did any audible damage.
Scotth3886 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 11:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,409
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4095 Post(s)
Liked: 2565
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #5 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
So on the Musical Fidelity Roundtable its wow and flutter of .08 with no LP and .06 with, which I think is ok for a table I paid $299 for new.
Since you've already sprung for the $4.99 in-app upgrade option (which allows testing at 45 RPM, not just 33.33RPM) you also get the privilege of uploading your score to their ever growing database (free for anyone to examine, but not to upload to, without paying that $4.99 upgrade fee) yet I don't see your entry. Have you not uploaded it yet?

Last edited by m. zillch; 03-26-2019 at 12:52 AM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #6 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 01:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,409
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4095 Post(s)
Liked: 2565
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Since you've already sprung for the $4.99 in-app upgrade option (which allows testing at 45 RPM, not just 33.33RPM) you also get the privilege of uploading your score to their ever growing database (free for anyone to examine, but not upload to without that $4.99 upgrade fee) yet I don't see your entry. Have you not uploaded it yet?
You wouldn't see it since I have two android phones, no iPhones. My ability to use 45rpm is free, but no option to upload.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #7 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 01:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,409
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4095 Post(s)
Liked: 2565
I'm not going to try it again with LP on and stylus down. Learned lesson.

Speed isn't exactly right on and I don't know what the issue is.

Scotth3886 is offline  
post #8 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
I can't speak to other brands but the white paper I read from in the video mentions talcing the belt is important and oddly increases speed. It is not a misprint because it even says, paraphrased, "this would seem counter-intuitive but it's true."

Do you talc your belt?
m. zillch is offline  
post #9 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 02:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,409
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4095 Post(s)
Liked: 2565
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I can't speak to other brands but the white paper I read from in the video mentions talcing the belt is important and oddly increases speed. It is not a misprint because it even says, paraphrased, "this would seem counter-intuitive but it's true."

Do you talc your belt?
I would think that would make it slip. I've read the same and I'm not sure it makes sense to me. Is talc the same thing as baby powder? I'm heading to the grocery after the gym and I'll get some if its different.

I'll try it on the cheap table and see if it does anything.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #10 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
I think "baby powder" is just talc with added fragrance [at least what I had on hand is]. It is what I used anyways and I doubt the tiny amount of non-talc in it matters.

There are many web sites dedicated to restoring and upgrading the AR-XA but the one I used mentioned to first strip the belt of any oils with a quick but not soaking wipe with isopropyl alcohol. I used a lightly soaked cotton ball pulling the belt through it pinching inwards on both sides.


Dry the belt immediately with a fan, cool setting of a hair dryer, or waving it around in the air. Once dry drop it in a zip lock bag with a small amount of talc and shake generously for a minute to get a uniform coating. Extract from bag and use. Re-talc yearly.
m. zillch is offline  
post #11 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 03:33 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,534
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2441 Post(s)
Liked: 2282
Be careful... your belt may be at risk.


https://www.drugdangers.com/talcum-powder/lawsuit/



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is online now  
post #12 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 04:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,409
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4095 Post(s)
Liked: 2565
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I think "baby powder" is just talc with added fragrance [at least what I had on hand is]. It is what I used anyways and I doubt the tiny amount of non-talc in it matters.

There are many web sites dedicated to restoring and upgrading the AR-XA but the one I used mentioned to first strip the belt of any oils with a quick but not soaking wipe with isopropyl alcohol. I used a lightly soaked cotton ball pulling the belt through it pinching inwards on both sides.


Dry the belt immediately with a fan, cool setting of a hair dryer, or waving it around in the air. Once dry drop it in a zip lock bag with a small amount of talc and shake generously for a minute to get a uniform coating. Extract from bag and use. Re-talc yearly.
Thanks I'm going to give this a try when I get back. If I don't ruin anything, I'll try it on the big table.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #13 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 06:53 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 15,183
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2814 Post(s)
Liked: 2731
I watched the whole video.


First, what an extremely well done and informative video! Great stuff!


Second: WOW! That sure was a convincing demonstration of the AR turntable design. The imperviousness to vibration is insane. Loved the room rumble demonstration at the end.


The fact that much of the vibration control is attributable to the spring suspension design seems to ratify my own findings (and other people). Of all the isolation devices/materials I tried, nothing came close to spring-based suspension for isolation properties.
pjp, m. zillch and Scotth3886 like this.
R Harkness is offline  
post #14 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 07:35 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,409
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4095 Post(s)
Liked: 2565
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I think "baby powder" is just talc with added fragrance [at least what I had on hand is]. It is what I used anyways and I doubt the tiny amount of non-talc in it matters.

There are many web sites dedicated to restoring and upgrading the AR-XA but the one I used mentioned to first strip the belt of any oils with a quick but not soaking wipe with isopropyl alcohol. I used a lightly soaked cotton ball pulling the belt through it pinching inwards on both sides.


Dry the belt immediately with a fan, cool setting of a hair dryer, or waving it around in the air. Once dry drop it in a zip lock bag with a small amount of talc and shake generously for a minute to get a uniform coating. Extract from bag and use. Re-talc yearly.

Didn't work. speed was .6 off and wow and flutter increased to .11%
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #15 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
First, what an extremely well done and informative video! Great stuff!.
Thanks.
---

AR was not the first to use internal suspension (instead of external) but they took it much further by applying several, important, scientific engineering principles:

1.
Instead of four springs, one at each corner, it uses three so it becomes more stable and less likely to wobble, much like a camera tripod uses three legs not four. In fact you can think of it as being like a camera tripod but used upside down and hanging from the ceiling instead of being supported from the floor below. [The "ceiling" is the top plate the floating sub-chassis is suspended from.]

2. The location of the three spring/rubber/foam shock isolators aren't placed just anywhere: the locations were designed such that they are all equidistant to the center of gravity of the entire mass they are floating, including the weight of the platter, the arm/headshell, a cartridge, and an LP in play. This also increases stability and prevents wobbling side to side when it gets jostled [so it won't go wobbling/teetering like a child's spinning top].

3.
Each spring isolator has an an adjustable screw to set its tension and springiness but AR would set everything properly and then lock it into position with a glob of brown glue. Hobbyists tinkering with the inner mechanism quickly discovered one could scrape off the glue, replace the lock nut with a wing nut, and then make fine tuning possible by hand. [Although in unmodified form this isn't really necessary.]

4.
In factory set mode the three spring isolators have a tuned resonance that is very low, about 4 Hz, well below the audible band. You can sort of see this when I press and release the record surface and let it bounce at will, around 1m56s into the video.

Although there were many attempts to clone AR's 3-point floating sub-chassis suspension, some of the competitors failed to get all of these points covered so their results were a mixed bag.

Last edited by m. zillch; 12-22-2018 at 10:30 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #16 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Didn't work. speed was .6 off and wow and flutter increased to .11%
Bummer. Oh well, it was cheap enough to try. . . . The concept may only work when using a specific belt tautness that AR uses? I dunno.
m. zillch is offline  
post #17 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 09:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,409
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4095 Post(s)
Liked: 2565
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Bummer. Oh well, it was cheap enough to try. . . . The concept may only work when using a specific belt tautness that AR uses? I dunno.
Yep, it was free. And even .11% is not high enough that I can hear it. Maybe over time it will go back to where it was.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #18 of 90 Old 12-22-2018, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Update: I've added my Youtube notes (under the video) to this thread's opening post.
m. zillch is offline  
post #19 of 90 Old 12-24-2018, 08:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
PrimeTime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Lower California
Posts: 3,265
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 806 Post(s)
Liked: 504
Come to think of it, I have one of those out in the shed someplace. One of these days I should fire it up and start digitizing my vinyl before it melts.

I remember seeing an old ad for this unit that showed the tonearm playing the record while someone struck the turntable's platform with a hammer.


Also somewhere out in the shed is an old Dual 1019 TT. Not as good with isolation as the AR, but likely better speed stability with that heavy-duty flywheel of a table.

Last edited by PrimeTime; 12-24-2018 at 08:10 PM.
PrimeTime is offline  
post #20 of 90 Old 12-24-2018, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post
I remember seeing an old ad for this unit that showed the tonearm playing the record while someone struck the turntable's platform with a hammer.
Seeing a video of it makes it a lot more believable though. To the best of my knowledge mine is the first to do so.

https://www.vinylnirvana.com/history/ar_brochure_1.jpg

There was no internet/Youtube back then, of course, but the hammer test was also probably shown at Acoustic Research Music Rooms [Showrooms with zero commerce and zero sales pitch. Although questions were answered by the staff. It was just a place for weary travelers in Grand Central Terminal in NYC to listen to and enjoy high fidelity music reproduction.] During the Christmas season a single pair of AR speakers, highlighted with spotlights, filled the entire, huge room with Christmas music.

Last edited by m. zillch; 01-30-2019 at 12:42 AM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #21 of 90 Old 12-28-2018, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
I've updated the video. No need to watch the whole thing again, here's a 1 minute video showing what was added, namely a INSTANT REPLAY AND RECAP of the pivot height test for warp wow, showing the AR-XA turntable's unique immunity to any size warp, big or small:

This now makes the difference easier to hear because less time elapses between exposures. [Exact echoic memory is fleeting, after all.]

Last edited by m. zillch; 08-25-2019 at 07:31 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #22 of 90 Old 12-28-2018, 03:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,409
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4095 Post(s)
Liked: 2565
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I've updated the video link in the first post to the new version I just uploaded today. No need to watch the video again, just watch this 1 minute video to see what was added, namely a INSTANT REPLAY AND RECAP of the pivot height test for warp wow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABrf...ature=youtu.be
This now makes the difference easier to hear because less time elapses between exposures. [acoustic memory is fleeting, after all].
How's your burgeoning record collection coming?
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #23 of 90 Old 12-28-2018, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Small. I don't have "4 within walking distance" stores to choose from; I have one that's a real trek.

Last edited by m. zillch; 08-24-2019 at 01:11 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #24 of 90 Old 12-28-2018, 04:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,409
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4095 Post(s)
Liked: 2565
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Small. I don't have "4 within walking distance" stores to choose from I have one that's a real trek.

Overall, I haven't had such good luck with used records stores for genres other than classical. However, it's good to watch craigslist for estate sales or giveaways such as how I got the extra 6,500 sealed classical LPs. I got to him first, but the records stores really hounded him. Big thing to him was to get them out of his deceased parent's house so they could close, and also, that whomever he gave these to would keep the collection together, which I have.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #25 of 90 Old 01-29-2019, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Here's Jimmy Page playing his classic, Stairway to Heaven, on his Thorens TD-166, one of the limited number of well designed progeny to the AR-XA which implemented AR's three point suspended sub-chassis properly [you can see the floating platter giggle a little at one point].

I was a Thorens dealer for many years and their 3-point floating sub-chassis designs were what I recommended to friends.


I would think Page is a multi-millionaire and can afford any turntable he wants. Depending on what year he bought it, this Thorens cost about $355.

Last edited by m. zillch; 03-31-2019 at 12:57 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #26 of 90 Old 01-30-2019, 01:54 PM
Senior Member
 
Out-Of-Phase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 455
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Liked: 308
I'm curious zillch, what do you think of some the old vintage Denon tables?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1165.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	83.0 KB
ID:	2518328  

Save your money.
Out-Of-Phase is offline  
post #27 of 90 Old 01-30-2019, 01:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
drh3b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2108 Post(s)
Liked: 4261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
I'm curious zillch, what do you think of some the old vintage Denon tables?
Looks like a docked flying saucer!
drh3b is offline  
post #28 of 90 Old 01-30-2019, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
I'm curious zillch, what do you think of some the old vintage Denon tables?
I sold Denon turntables briefly but this was decades ago and the only ones I had setup and had much experience with were their lower to mid tier units so I can't comment on their better ones nor what's currently available. None of the ones I dealt with had the low oscillation frequency suspension of the AR and (upscale) Thorens designs so they all seemed prone to isolation problems, motor noise, and room rumble. They seemed more geared for professional disc jockey use say in a radio station where one values immediate speed accuracy, back cuing, nearly instantaneous start up, etc..

P.S. They invented the worlds first, mass produced moving coil cartridge, the DL-103 c.1962, co-created PCM digital encoding in conjunction with the NHK [the BBC of Japan], later used by Sony and Phillips for the ground breaking CD format, and made the first professional digital recorders used in recording studios, so I have a lot of respect for Denon.

Last edited by m. zillch; 01-30-2019 at 03:01 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #29 of 90 Old 01-30-2019, 03:19 PM
Senior Member
 
Out-Of-Phase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 455
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Liked: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
so I have a lot of respect for Denon.
Me too, the old Japan Nippon Columbia Denon that is.

Save your money.
Out-Of-Phase is offline  
post #30 of 90 Old 01-30-2019, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,196
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5549 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
Me too, the old Japan Nippon Columbia Denon that is.
How many audio companies can you name who've been in the business so long that their first products predate the use of electrical motors!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=XSN3rOKcrGI

^ A 1910 Nipponophone, powered by hand-cranked spring, still working a century after production!

Yamaha is even older, but they started with musical instruments such as this reed organ c.1887

Pianos in 1900.

and to the best of my knowledge didn't start making audio reproduction gear until well after WWII [1954?].

Last edited by m. zillch; 01-30-2019 at 03:45 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply 2-Channel Audio

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off