Will the sound keep getting better??? - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 204 Old 02-07-2019, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
"SOUND; AMPLIFIERS TEST THEIR LISTENERS
Here's another, the infamous Zipser test. Go to the Letters section, page pdf7 and it starts near the top of the RH column and continues in the next page. The last paragraph is an excellent summary.

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post #122 of 204 Old 02-07-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
...
Tube amps sound different, that's because they inherently are designed that way thru the use of tubes, it ADDS a sound effect to the sound, so it sounds different.

...
Also, the output impedance is high enough that the FR follows the speakers FR. If large enough variation from flat compared to SS amps, it most likely will be audible.
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post #123 of 204 Old 02-07-2019, 06:33 PM
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This is absolutely not a thing. I'm not sure if you're serious or this is just more distraction to move the conversation away from you ABX testing your stuff. I'm not going to waste my time explaining the basics on how eyesight works, but there is a reason they spent all that money and time developing stereoscopic RealD3D. All the special film cameras, projectors, glasses etc.. and why movies are offered in both RealD3D and traditional screenings. If normal display had a 3D illusion watching with two eyes, there would be no need for any of that.
He's talking about depth to the image, which usually comes with a high contrast ratio for me. Your eyes can absolutely sense depth and differences in depth in a 2D image. It's the main reason for me that 3D tv's are wholly unnecessary.
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post #124 of 204 Old 02-07-2019, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Here's another, the infamous Zipser test. Go to the Letters section, page pdf7 and it starts near the top of the RH column and continues in the next page. The last paragraph is an excellent summary.

I'll take the Yamaha frankly.
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post #125 of 204 Old 02-07-2019, 11:04 PM
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Your eyes can absolutely sense depth and differences in depth in a 2D image.
The type of depth portrayed on television and 2D images only requires one eye. Any of the various techniques employed filming a scene for traditional television to portray depth falls under monocular vision.

For "3D", each eye needs to receive a picture that is slightly different. There needs to be visual data that one eye can't uncover by itself. Did you not get to play with a View-Master as a kid? It's the same concept behind any VR tech. A normal TV does not provide that, all those pixels are on the same plane. Your left eye is not receiving extra pixels that the right can't see, and vice versa.
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post #126 of 204 Old 02-07-2019, 11:47 PM
 
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My TV is so good the images are 4D.
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post #127 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
My TV is so good the images are 4D.
Unfortunately, my not so old Samsung Plasma went 4F, so I had to replace it.
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post #128 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 12:30 AM
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My TV is so good the images are 4D.
No kidding? My supersensory abilities are limited to temperature perception. I can tell the difference between 72 degree 50%RH provided by a cheap AC, and 72 degree 50%RH provided by a top of the line model. Cheaper air conditioning is mushy and fatiguing. It's gray and somewhat disconcerting. High dollar AC has a rich enveloping sense of calming. I don't waste my time ABX testing them though. I live with an AC for a couple weeks, if the 72 degree 50%RH doesn't sit right, i'll return it. There's a velvety texture to great room temp.
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post #129 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
My TV is so good the images are 4D.
Wouldn't a 4D image cast a 3D shadow, and open a wormhole?
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post #130 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 2WheelsWillTravel View Post
The type of depth portrayed on television and 2D images only requires one eye. Any of the various techniques employed filming a scene for traditional television to portray depth falls under monocular vision.

For "3D", each eye needs to receive a picture that is slightly different. There needs to be visual data that one eye can't uncover by itself. Did you not get to play with a View-Master as a kid? It's the same concept behind any VR tech. A normal TV does not provide that, all those pixels are on the same plane. Your left eye is not receiving extra pixels that the right can't see, and vice versa.
Nice strawman. I'm talking about depth of image, and I'm sure that's what Alan was referring to as well. You're just trying to pick on the nomenclature in true forum wiseguy fashion. Notice how I didn't say a word about 3D in my entire post other than that I find it useless. So what exactly are you refuting?

Our brains process 2D pictures in three dimensions. I can't believe i'm even having to argue this, only on AVSForum once again.......




Thanks for explaining 3D VIEWFINDER technology to us simpletons in the 2 Channel audio forum though. BIG thanks.
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post #131 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
Nice strawman. I'm talking about depth of image, and I'm sure that's what Alan was referring to as well. You're just trying to pick on the nomenclature in true forum wiseguy fashion. Notice how I didn't say a word about 3D in my entire post other than that I find it useless. So what exactly are you refuting?

Our brains process 2D pictures in three dimensions. I can't believe i'm even having to argue this, only on AVSForum once again.......




Thanks for explaining 3D VIEWFINDER technology to us simpletons in the 2 Channel audio forum though. BIG thanks.
Cute. There's no telling what you guys are referring to, you claim to hear differences in USB and speaker cables. Any depth you perceive in that nice picture you posted is a function of monocular vision. You do not need two eyes to see it.
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post #132 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
Our brains process 2D pictures in three dimensions. I can't believe i'm even having to argue this, only on AVSForum once again...….
Some of our brains simply "fill in the blanks" to perceive depth when processing a 2D picture. Not the same "brain work" when viewing a 3D image. Like using a Viewmaster.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereoscope


EDIT:
Added "of" for comprehension.
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post #133 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Some our brains simply "fill in the blanks" to perceive depth when processing a 2D picture. Not the same "brain work" when viewing a 3D image. Like using a Viewmaster.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereoscope
You're refuting yet another point I did not make. You're missing a few words in your post so it makes it a little hard to comprehend.

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A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."
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post #134 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 08:22 AM
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Cute. There's no telling what you guys are referring to, you claim to hear differences in USB and speaker cables. Any depth you perceive in that nice picture you posted is a function of monocular vision. You do not need two eyes to see it.
Yet another strawman argument. Never said you did.
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post #135 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 09:13 AM
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You're refuting yet another point I did not make. You're missing a few words in your post so it makes it a little hard to comprehend.
Sorry. I missed the word "of". I type in 2D.


I only commented to : "Our brains process 2D pictures in three dimensions."



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #136 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 09:18 AM
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Headphones

Throw some sealed back headphones on and listen for a "image"

Do the sound transducers in any way, shape or form "interact" with each other? Yes, if you have a tunnel through your head they would but for most humans, they generally don't survive that medical issue.

With absolutely no interaction betweent the transducers and no room interaction because they are clamped/sealed to the side of your cranium--why do you get a sound "image or soundstage"?

Now when I listen on headphones, the image seems to be "in my head" (for better or worse)

This is your brain on headphones, any questions?

Now to move on to something more interesting, more 21st Century--imaging from 3/5/7/11/13 channels or even Dolby Digital with 64 main channels. How do they get the speakers right with so many channels or do they have to make different speakers as the channel count grows? How do the speaker companies "know" if the speakers will image properly at 1 meter, 2 meters, 4 meters or 100 meters? They do know that humidity is a big factor with higher frequencies at long distances--does that effect "soundstage"?

How come people can design, build, tune and calibrate speakers as a hobby and have pin point imaging without millions of dollars in test gear? When I built my own speakers for my garage as a "fresh sheet of paper" design, did I know going it what the "stereo image" would be before I cut the first panel, screwed in the first driver or soldered in the first crossover part? Did I "trust my ears" and just throw things together and kept guessing or throwing money at different drivers until I accidentally achieved proper "imaging"? Did I have to build TWO line arrays to test it? Was I lazy and just built ONE of them, measured it out, made changes to the crossover filters or speaker alignment until I had ONE speaker that worked well? Considering each line array had 48 tweeters, 20 mids and 12 woofers that had to be perfectly sealed in to enclosures inside to work properly, was I lazy and just build them one at a time? Why not build two of them wrong then keep revising the design so they worked well enough?

Maybe I should of built two of them wrong--after all, it is only time, effort, money and aggrivation! No, I built one--it didn't work right. I revised it and a month later I had Revision 2--and it didn't work right. Back to the books I went--a few months later came Revision 3 and it worked well enough. I then built the second speaker and duplicated the first. As a pair, did the oddities I noticed with Revision 3 speaker change...at all? No, not with my human hearing and my test gear informed me it was still flawed. I then spent time, effort and aggrivation fine tuning the crossover filters, making sure all those drivers were sealed and cheated--I used EQ because that "fixes" some issues inherent with line arrays. I listened, it sounded "correct" (except for one minor issue) and the measurements told me I got close. Only took me 18 months, three revisions, way more testing and far more reading about how arrays worked than I liked but that is the point of the hobby--to challenge yourself and learn something!

The imaging? Well, with over 160 drivers operating for the pair and considering they are almost 8 feet tall sitting on low height subs--they have a very wide horizontal dispersion (100 to 120 degrees) but a vertical dispersion of less than 10 degrees to prevent floor/ceiling bounce in a garage (why I built them) The image sounds BIG--really big... it is a line source, not a point source at least at distances up to 4 meters--after that it then reverts back to a point source--just to be scientifically accurate. The system is a "2.2 channel" in that it uses subwoofers, I require proper bass management because it being an "active garage" I am limited in placement and riding lawnmowers, BBQs and toolboxes are not acoustically friendly devices. Most people comment on the things, they tend to dominate a space by sheer size--they always call them "big sounding" and have fun moving forwards and backwards in their nearfield and note the SPL varies little, notice as they move backwards the sound changes again and it becomes "normal" at around 8 meters back. To them, it is a very odd feeling but I know why and will give them the information if they really want to know. I then flip one of them on saw horses pointing straight up and tell them to walk beside it and listen to the sound. Once they reach the end of the array, they physically are past the drivers--the sound SPL level plummets "Like someone closed the door". You would think dome tweeters have a very wide dispersion, they do but not when you stack 48 of them together squeezed in tight. If they want to listen to them positioned vertically, the subs are 20 inches tall where the arrays are placed and they can lay on the floor and notice the very sharp vertical cut off.

I will never build such things again--but the teenagers love the things (bigger is better and more drivers look cool!) They also learn the rules of acoustics just by listening and playing around with the things. No reading, understanding, effort or critical thinking required--teenagers like that! I like to throw the 1812 Overture in those things as an example why I went through all the hassle to build them--the wall of sound effect. To keep the audiophiles at bay, I call them a "pro sound design" to avoid "improving them" with amps, cables, wires, DACs, record players and any Audioquest, Kimber, Monster, Cary Audio, PS Audio and other consumer sound black hat quackery. It is a pro sound design, you automatically think those suck anyway so no point in jibber-jabber, sit down, shut up and grab a beer--this mess was made for fun! It is not a HT system, it is a garage sound system to play tunes when I'm working on real life stuff, the room is not allowed to change and it does sound better after a brew or two.

I don't have to worry about the "last 1%" of my HT system equipment--my room acoustics would improve more with a few acoustic panels and better placement--but it being a living room is priority so I have a natural stopping point. The garage system is done! Well, "donish" because I am seriously considering building a tapped horn--8 feet tall and bulletproof just because I want a tapped horn to play with. Being a garage system that has no limits on size, WAF or shiny abilities--big, ugly and raw is the man cave style. The arrays are done but there is always room for more Jello....errr, more subs! Now I just need a "reason" to waste more money, time, effort and space--more subs = better bass accuracy across larger areas--that will do it! Must have a "reason" to blow money on a first world hobby that really does not impact the rest of the world. Any time I get a crazy idea about "improving" the arrays with better mids (Qty 42) or better tweeters (Qty 96) I vividly remember soldering all that stuff together and the huge looms of wiring that resemble a telephone connection room in a major building--my inner hatred for such an undertaking takes over and I pass. Those things are done, they will always be done... play with subs and EQ. I have found the personal limit of my hobby!

In short, using the famous words of a talented philosopher (The Cranberries) It's in your head, in your head....zombie, zombie, zombie! (brains!) Ponder how headphones work... 18 has left the building!
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post #137 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
Nice strawman. I'm talking about depth of image, and I'm sure that's what Alan was referring to as well. You're just trying to pick on the nomenclature in true forum wiseguy fashion. Notice how I didn't say a word about 3D in my entire post other than that I find it useless. So what exactly are you refuting?

Our brains process 2D pictures in three dimensions. I can't believe i'm even having to argue this, only on AVSForum once again.......




Thanks for explaining 3D VIEWFINDER technology to us simpletons in the 2 Channel audio forum though. BIG thanks.
Don't try to convince them, they already made up their mind. To them, sound stage of stereo, the 3D like on tv are just all in your head. They gone as far as using a single speaker to judge the quality of the pair of speakers designed to run in stereo to convince others that expensive speakers are snake oil. That all amps sound the same as long as they are not clipped.


Obviously at this point, all the ones that said all these has NO good stereo system. I am not sure it's even sour grapes. They have no idea how a good system sounds and you cannot convince them otherwise. They just keep using hear say.


I have been there. If I only have my pair of Kef Uni-Q floor standing, I likely join them also. This is like in Chinese saying, the frog sitting at the bottom of the well and look up the sky, then claim the sky is only that small.


When you have a good enough pair of speaker, they should sound good, nothing wrong with the bass, mid or treble. Like my Kef. If I compare the Kef with the JM Lab with one speaker mono, they sounded the same or very close. I was comparing the treble, bass, the sound of the sax, the guitar, the drums like that even in stereo. I was very disappointed with the JM Lab when I first got it. But then when I was not even trying to compare and just sitting there with the JM Lab playing. All of a sudden, how come the sound is so "big"!!! How come it sounded like in a concert hall that the sound surrounded me. That's when I really understand and appreciate the JM Lab. Then I put the Kef back, it sounded dead, all the biggness is GONE.


They have to use a mono speaker to destroy the sound stage to make their point that all high end speakers are snake oil.

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post #138 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 11:55 AM
 
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No kidding? My supersensory abilities are limited to temperature perception.
As people with superior audio systems capable of proper Hi-Re$ sound reproduction can attest, it is not uncommon that the exquisite depth and precision in the details translates into enhanced sensory perception beyond just hearing, such as making the colors look more vibrant in a movie accompanied with the better sound :

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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Since the main document which outlines what Oohashi, aka Shoji Yamashiro is all about is just a photograph of text, hence not found by web search engines, I've taken the time to type out the pertinent text here hopefully not just for the benefit of our thread, but also anyone out there who is researching "hypersonics". [Bold text parts for emphasis by me, m. zillch.] Enjoy.

"Audio System for Experiencing the Hypersonic Effect of BD AKIRA

http://www.yamashirogumi.gr.jp/akira-e/sankou/experience3_e.html

To experience the hypersonic effect of BD AKIRA, there is one simple thing you must do: you have to play the disc with an audio system (comprising of a disc player, amplifiers and speakers) to be able to reproduce the ultra-high-frequency components, some of which reach almost 100kHz, that are recorded in the disc.

Speakers must be used rather than earphones or headphones to play the high-frequency components that exceed the upper limit of the audible range of 20kHz. This is due to the fact that the surface of the human body has high frequency sensors that bring about the hypersonic effect/Whether or not you are able to enjoy the hypersonic effect of BD AKIRA to its full extent depends on whether your audio system can convert the recorded hypersonic signals that reach almost 100 kHz properly into air vibrations...

Simple Test of Systems by Playing Back BD AKIRA

...BD AKIRA [Japanese release only, I believe. - m. zillch] contains four soundtracks: one contains a hypersonic sound signal with the newest format (Japanese Dolby TrueHD with 192 kHz-sampling, and 5.1ch surround), the other three tracks (English Dolby True HD, Japanese Dolby Digital and Japanese Linear PCM) each contain sound with three formats that does not contain a hypersonic sound signal. The four tracks can be switched while displaying the same HD video image. If you cannot feel any clear difference in sound or visual quality between the hypersonic soundtrack and non hypersonic soundtracks when comparing them, you have to consider the possibility that your system does not perform adequately enough [Or how about considering that ultrasonics are not perceptible? - m. zillch]....

[Points to Compare]

Making accurate comparisons of the sound quality in this way cannot be achieved by switching tracks quickly. You should listen to the “Japaneses Dolby True HD” (192 kHz 24 bit / 5.1 hypersonic soundtrack) from chapter 1 to the end of chapter 2, followed by the “Japanese Dolby Digital” (48 kHz 16bit/5.1ch) track from the beginning of chapter 1 to the end of chapter 2 again. Listening to the hypersonic Japanese Dolby True HD soundtrack once again also allows for better comparisons to be made.

If you find clear differences in sound quality between the Dolby True HD 192 kHz 24 bit / 5.1 ch (the hypesonic track) and the other tracks, and feel that the sound is much more beautiful, pleasurable and impressive, while also feeling that the visual quality looks more impressive and the colors look more vibrant when listening to the hypersonic track than while listening to the others, your system has an adequate performance for passing the test. On the other hand, if you feel no difference in the sound quality other than a little sound volume [Holy cow! He just admitted, right there, the test will NOT be level matched, yet he thinks it has validity?! We know for a fact such tests are subconsciously biased! - m. zillch] or no difference in the visual quality between the tracks, your system may not be capable of reproducing high-frequency components that exceed the audible range with enough fidelity. This means your system may have certain limitations or be experiencing problems in reproducing high-frequency components, and result in no induction of the hypersonic effect...
Oohashi's "studies" are cited in papers by Bob Stuart, Joshua Reiss, and others in their promotion of Hi-Re$, MQA, etc..

"Oh the colors!"

Original source of Oohashi's text here.

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post #139 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 12:10 PM
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To OP and other new comers, don't listen to anyone here, don't even listen to me on the sound stage and 3D. The only opinion that matters is YOURS. If you want to get into hifi, before you put out the money, go to the store and borrow the speakers or the amps and take it home for two days or so. Listen to it. Don't try to compare which one has better bass, treble, which guitar sounds better. Just enjoy the music like it's an ordinary day. You will hear more if you don't even try, just enjoy. After two days, if you don't feel it, return it.


I did a lot of test on my amps, compare under pressure does not work, it doesn't work repeating the same line and switch speakers or amps back and fore, trying to listen which guitar sounds better, or which voice sounds better etc. All good enough speakers or amps sound very similar like this. It's when you are not trying to judge, just relax and enjoy, no pressure, that's when the good ones surprises you. You hear things you did not hear before with your old speakers or amp. When you find yourself turning your head and look for where the sound comes from in the house, the phone rings or opening doors etc. That it sounds so real, then you know it's a better speakers or amp.


Your opinion is the ONLY one that matter, just borrow the speakers or amp home, use it the way you use it everyday. Don't make decision until two days later.

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Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #140 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 01:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
To OP and other new comers, don't listen to anyone here, don't even listen to me on the sound stage and 3D. The only opinion that matters is YOURS.. . .
Your opinion is the ONLY one that matter, just borrow the speakers or amp home, use it the way you use it everyday.. . .
But I thought you said only people with high end (expensive) gear had the proper means to test for audible differences between amps because inferior systems won't cut it?

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As I said over and over, I just want to bring this out so any new comers on this forum will have a better understanding where all this "scientific" test came from. They can make their own mind that.

1) They test the best of the best amps by recording the amps at the output with a simulated load. Then play back on another system that can be way inferior for people to judge. Then came out with the idea that all amps sounds the same as long as they are not clipped.

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post #141 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 01:10 PM
 
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I did a lot of test on my amps, compare under pressure does not work. . .
So If I'm understanding you correctly you claim to be able to hear a difference between commercial, solid state amps playing at the same volume level with both kept under clipping, however it is impossible to test because any test would fundamentally put so much pressure on you that you'd fail. Did I get that right?

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post #142 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 01:46 PM
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My TV is so good the images are 4D.
You mean you see shows from the past? And, perhaps from the future? Time shifting?
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Unfortunately, my not so old Samsung Plasma went 4F, so I had to replace it.
Stop this. My floor is too hard for a ROTFLOL
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Stop this.
I agree.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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So If I'm understanding you correctly you claim to be able to hear a difference between commercial, solid state amps playing at the same volume level with both kept under clipping, however it is impossible to test because any test fundamentally would put so much pressure on you that you'd fail. Did I get that right?
Maybe he would pass under pressure if there was a real volume difference? Very easy to test.
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post #146 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 02:12 PM
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Again, don't listen to the opinion of anyone here, me included. Before you buy good speakers or amp, borrow them home for at least two days, just listen to it. A member here Bing bought an amp, took him a long time to decide not to return it. Sounds like even online store have good return policy if you don't like it and decide to return after a period of time, you can do that too.https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...primaluna.html


You be your own judge, your opinion is the only one that matter as you are going to live with it and you are the one that pay for it.


Make sure you borrow a pair of good speaker cable, no need to worry about those RCA cables.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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And if you don't hear a difference then it means your speaker cables weren't good enough? Or is it possible there's simply no difference between the amps?
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If you have to borrow adequate speaker cables does that mean there's no difference using the cables one already owns?. . . .

This begs the question: Why would a consumer care if one thing sounds better than another but only through gear they don't own?
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Refer to my former posts, don't ask redundant questions. You know the answers.


I know, speaker cables are not important, all speaker cables sounds the same too.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #150 of 204 Old 02-08-2019, 02:38 PM
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Solid foundation first, when you do not even know how the brain works there is no way to build upon anything...…...it will all be magic that is unexplainable.






There is magic in those amps....why, "I do not know, can`t explain"...yep sounds like magic.



There is magic in those power cords....why..."I do not know, can`t explain"...…..yep sounds like magic.



There is magic in those speakers....why..." I don`t know, can`t explain"...…...yep sounds like magic.




Do not listen to anyone, trust your own ears.....why,..."I do not know, can not explain"....yep sounds like magic.



Yet the other side of the argument does know, they can explain, there are measurements and scientific theories which fit...…...


But keep believing there is unexplainable magic smoke in that product and better yet, try to convince everyone else there is magic unexplainable things happening that only X products can offer and we can not explain it.



There was a group of people around the turn of the century that sold products just like that, they were snake oil salesmen.



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Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
Speakers and subs for sale...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...kers-subs.html

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