If you had ~$4K for a 2 Channel Amplifier... - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 167 Old 03-19-2019, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
I’d really like to know, as that wasn’t a sarcastic question.
This is how to test it--it is called "bench testing" and it can be done with an 8 ohm load, a multi-meter (true RMS is best) and a test tone CD. Set the output of the amp to around 5 to 10 volts at 1 KHz test tone then check it at 50Hz--the voltage should be close to the same. Say you have 10 volts at 1 KHz and 9 volts at 50Hz, that would mean it is about 1dB down--it takes a huge variance for power to get to a level of actually hearing anything.

OK, you don't have an 8 or 4 ohm load laying around--you can do it with your speakers. First, do a factory reset on the Onkyo to make sure all programming is cleared and run it with all processing off. Run the speaker to around 3.00V or so with the test tone at 1KHz (it will be annoying) then adjust the test tone down to 50Hz--the voltage will change. It changes because speaker impedance changes so note what that voltage is at 50Hz when the voltage is at 3.00V at 1 KHz test tone. Connect the amplifier to the speakers and adjust the output with the test tone at 1 KHz again--make it 3.00V just as you did with the Onkyo. Change it to the 50Hz test tone and note the voltage the speaker is running--it should be pretty much the same voltage as the AVR.

You need a good multi-meter to do this properly--it is a common test done for bench testing amplifiers. Be careful when running high frequency test tones into tweeters--very easy to blow dome and ribbon tweeters with high power test tones at say 10 KHz. Much better to use 8 and 4 ohm test loads as they don't fry if you screw up. For most consumer speakers, a test at 50Hz and 1 KHz is good and it won't burn your tweeters at voltages of 3 to 10 volts.

I did some blind testing of amplifiers back in the day, learned how to do it properly and it is a pain in the butt. Bench testing is more accurate and will notify you of differences between amplifier output. If you get really low voltage readings on the Onkyo VS the amp and they are both equal voltage at 1 KHz--you have a damaged AVR or the processesing was not cleared properly when you did the reset.

Back in the day, I had four 3 KW 8 ohm heating elements and would check amplifiers/car amps and check for clipping with my o-scope. Sure cleared up the "my amp has more power than your amp" battles--the scope never lies. My SPL meter and Autosound 2000 test disc... good times!

It is a good skill to learn, bench testing electrical devices--sort of how the world works. Forget audio, most people have a need for a true RMS multi-meter in life anyway, great for many things so give it a shot.

One tip, if the readings don't jive with what your ears tell you...then you have your answer. Good luck, have fun and a good Fluke is your friend.
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post #32 of 167 Old 03-19-2019, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
It's like saying that all internal combustion engines sound the same because they are all built with the same principal in mind.
All internal combustion engines are not built with the same principle of sounding the same. If sounding the same was a design goal, then they would. Do all internal engines look the same? Do all amplifiers look the same? They're not designed to. Their end functions are their main design goal. Two internal combustion engines of different design with identical torque curves will perform identically, given the proper conditions.

Since you brought up a strawman, do you believe only internal combustion engines that cost $40k are sufficient? Or can one that costs merely $5k get the job done? Here's the usage: propelling a vehicle at up to 60 mph. See how a lack of criteria makes it difficult to provide recommendations?

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None of my amps sound the same either. Heck, I can usually tell a somewhat distinct sound signature/difference between models even at a place like Best Buy Magnolia in one of their crappy rooms.
That's exactly the kind of situation that is *designed* to get you to hear differences where none would exist under controlled conditions. If you prefer the way something sounds in the Magnolia, the only way you'll guarantee you will prefer it in your system is if you move into that crappy room and use their system.

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But maybe I should just buy a $399 Onkyo AVR and tell everyone "it sounds just as good" as the Luxman or Marantz that I was looking at?
If you spend $3601 on getting the Onkyo gold plated, it will suddenly meet your standards, and impress everyone else.

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I'm not sure why this is even being brought up though. It's my money...let me "foolishly" spend it on what I want/like.
It's being brought up because you're at the Audio Video *Science* Forum. This site is predicated to the use of *Science* to discuss and enjoy the business and hobby. Terms like "great" vs. "good" sound, "screaming" or "party" amplifiers aren't scientific, or really useful in any way. Ignoring that speakers have wildly varying impedances that affect their interactions with amplifiers isn't scientific or useful, either. Neither is strongly correlating price with performance, especially past a relatively high price point. So yes, you asked for help on a site where people use science to help each other, you shouldn't be surprised when we try to use science to help you.

I will give you that even though horns have evolved greatly and through many types over the past century, they still all suffer from Higher Order Modes to some degree. The best horns today probably have those HOM's below audible limits, and I bet that under a proper blind test you wouldn't be able to tell that you were listening to a horn. No problem, if you don't want any horns, that simplifies things. But when you say horns aren't "detailed" or "dynamic", that's pretty backward to how most folks describe them. Anybody else think that horns aren't at least relatively "dynamic"?

Subwoofers are a reasonable suggestion, and in your OP you mentioned that they were a possibilty. Contrary to your impression, subs aren't always about "loud bass"- they can be about *clean* bass, and cleaner everything else from your mains. "Clean" means free of the extraneous frequencies generated by.distortion, that stuff you hate so much from the horns you heard. Every room has modes, regardless of whether you believe in science or not. Some bass notes will be louder ("boomy") than others, some will be inaudible. You fix this by moving where the sources of bass are in the room. Unless you want to put your main speakers in the middle of opposite walls like giant headphones, you'll want at least one sub you can move around. Or just turn down your tone control to kill everything below 200Hz. If you like it that way, fine, it's your right to have that preference. But it's certainly not *accurate*, which is the goal of a scientific approach to sound reproduction.

We're trying to use science to help you. If you don't want that, you might as well go back to Magnolia and play "Pin the $4k on the donkey".
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post #33 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
This is how to test it--it is called "bench testing" and it can be done with an 8 ohm load, a multi-meter (true RMS is best) and a test tone CD. Set the output of the amp to around 5 to 10 volts at 1 KHz test tone then check it at 50Hz--the voltage should be close to the same. Say you have 10 volts at 1 KHz and 9 volts at 50Hz, that would mean it is about 1dB down--it takes a huge variance for power to get to a level of actually hearing anything.



OK, you don't have an 8 or 4 ohm load laying around--you can do it with your speakers. First, do a factory reset on the Onkyo to make sure all programming is cleared and run it with all processing off. Run the speaker to around 3.00V or so with the test tone at 1KHz (it will be annoying) then adjust the test tone down to 50Hz--the voltage will change. It changes because speaker impedance changes so note what that voltage is at 50Hz when the voltage is at 3.00V at 1 KHz test tone. Connect the amplifier to the speakers and adjust the output with the test tone at 1 KHz again--make it 3.00V just as you did with the Onkyo. Change it to the 50Hz test tone and note the voltage the speaker is running--it should be pretty much the same voltage as the AVR.



You need a good multi-meter to do this properly--it is a common test done for bench testing amplifiers. Be careful when running high frequency test tones into tweeters--very easy to blow dome and ribbon tweeters with high power test tones at say 10 KHz. Much better to use 8 and 4 ohm test loads as they don't fry if you screw up. For most consumer speakers, a test at 50Hz and 1 KHz is good and it won't burn your tweeters at voltages of 3 to 10 volts.



I did some blind testing of amplifiers back in the day, learned how to do it properly and it is a pain in the butt. Bench testing is more accurate and will notify you of differences between amplifier output. If you get really low voltage readings on the Onkyo VS the amp and they are both equal voltage at 1 KHz--you have a damaged AVR or the processesing was not cleared properly when you did the reset.



Back in the day, I had four 3 KW 8 ohm heating elements and would check amplifiers/car amps and check for clipping with my o-scope. Sure cleared up the "my amp has more power than your amp" battles--the scope never lies. My SPL meter and Autosound 2000 test disc... good times!



It is a good skill to learn, bench testing electrical devices--sort of how the world works. Forget audio, most people have a need for a true RMS multi-meter in life anyway, great for many things so give it a shot.



One tip, if the readings don't jive with what your ears tell you...then you have your answer. Good luck, have fun and a good Fluke is your friend.

Thank you

I have no idea if I’ll ever remember to do this, but maybe I’ll print it out and staple it to my wall as a reminder?

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #34 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Look, I know you're new here and all, but we've been through this hundreds if not thousands of times. All it results in is a locked thread.
You nailed it!! Typical AVS blah-blah. Turning a simple question into a huge controversy. All tk wanted is suggestions for an integrated in the 4K range. Stick to the subject guys. This argument keeps popping up like a bad tape loop. If you want to discuss the sound of amplifiers from a scientific point of view start a sticky thread where anyone interested can participate. tk there were some good suggestions earlier in the thread also go out and demo some units. My dealer lets his customers take home equipment to listen to. Good luck in your search.
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post #35 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 05:55 AM
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Floyd Toole, who literally wrote the book regarding sound reproduction states:

"The fact is that well-designed solid-state amplifiers have no fundamental problems. Loudspeakers will sound as they should, and power and current capabilities are available to satisfy all needs. Audible differences between good power amplifiers used within their limits are vanishingly small, usually inaudible. Amplifier sound quality has been one of the “great debate” issues for years. Double-blind listening tests conducted over several decades have been very disappointing to those who thought there were easily heard differences. A common reaction has been that the problem was the blind test, even though there was no time limit, and a free choice of program. Some said that if they knew what they were listening to, it would have been different . . . of course. That said, there is no denying that inadequate engineering is sometimes evident, which is why the final test of an amplifier is a subjective one, with it driving the customer’s loudspeakers. For the technically inclined, watching an oscilloscope display of the voltage across the loudspeaker terminals is sometimes greatly revealing, especially when power amplifiers approach voltage or current limits and go into “protection” mode."

Source: https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s...rs_part_3.docx
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post #36 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
Thank you

I have no idea if I’ll ever remember to do this, but maybe I’ll print it out and staple it to my wall as a reminder?
This is where taking Physics II pays off! The fastest, most accurate way to do testing is with a "dummy load" of usually 8 ohms. Put two 8 ohm loads in parallel for 4 ohms or four 8 ohm loads in parallel for 2 ohm testing (generally car audio related testing)

https://www.parts-express.com/8-ohm-...e-wound--017-8

You can pick them up for about a buck each at Parts Express or get wild and buy ten of them for $8.30 per 10 pack. A 20 watt resistor should do it for you but if you want/need higher power they can be wired 2 series/2 parallel for an 8 ohm 80 watt dummy load if you like. That should do it for most consumer amps, if you want to test professional PA amps then heating elements are your friend. The DIY sub guys get heating elements and place them in drums of oil to cool them down because...science!

Be careful when doing high output/clip testing with passively cooled consumer amplifiers--they are not designed to handle the load and will cook quickly. PA amps will just fire up the fans to cool themselves as needed and many car amps can handle ultra high outputs because they are designed to cool themselves in really hot cars. Generally speaking, for consumer amps it is a good idea to have a fan blowing air on them to keep them cool.

As I stated before, be very careful when using test discs with constant sine or square waves--they will smoke tweeters and mids if you are screwing around with high power testing. Although I find it fun to watch when a guy states his speaker handles "250 watts" then cranks the amplifier output over 100 watts at 10 KHz into his dome tweeter--and is greeted with the sound of silence. I love the smell of burnt voice coils in the morning.

A dummy load for quick and dirty testing is fairly inexpensive and a great amp tester to give real answers. Granted, some people will get butt hurt when the meter spits out the results but that is part of dealing with humans. "Bench racing" just like drag racing if where the BS stops.. most of the amp testing I did was for car audio, generally to get the gains matched up. Scopes are better but a 3.00 volt test across a dummy load with a Fluke true RMS meter provides most of the information you need as far as frequency response is concerned.

Enjoy throwing some testing into the mix--plus you'll have a meter to help trouble shoot other problems with other systems.
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post #37 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 07:02 AM
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Why don’t you people answer the OP’s question rather than recycling the same old argument?

Jolida Fusion Preamp, Jolida JD1000P Amp, VPI Scout turntable with Dynavector 10X5 cartridge, Paradigm Studio 100 v.5 speakers, Sonica DAC streaming lossless files. Furman Elite 15 Power Conditioner.
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post #38 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Why don’t you people answer the OP’s question rather than recycling the same old argument?

This. I just want a nice amp in criteria that I've laid out. I didn't want an argument about double-blind super-secret hidden camera listening tests, because "science". Or trying to explain what a sub does. I'm not a noob and there's a reason why I haven't directly crafted a response to such chatter.


It's like the difference between buying a Mustang and buying a Porsche. Both are equally about as fast 0-60, but one costs double the money (or more). But people might prefer the way the Porsche looks, feels, drives, etc. over the less expensive Mustang.

Point being, it's a stale argument that I don't subscribe to. I've heard and owned too many amps to know that all $400 amps won't sound like an amp that's been more finely tuned or crafted with better materials. Sure...there's snake oil, but not everything is snake oil. If I have to pay a little more for nicer features with more tactile feedback, then so be it.

Heck, I prefer a $35 Class-T amp to a $350 Yamaha that I had. It just sounded better to me. And that's why I wanted to buy from a place that'd accept returns because if a $4K amp doesn't sound as good as a $35 amp, then back it's going...regardless of how well finished it is. I will let my ears be the judge first and foremost.

Now...can we drop this? At least I've gotten a few suggestions that I did not consider before.
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post #39 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Class A View Post
You nailed it!! Typical AVS blah-blah. Turning a simple question into a huge controversy. All tk wanted is suggestions for an integrated in the 4K range. Stick to the subject guys. This argument keeps popping up like a bad tape loop. If you want to discuss the sound of amplifiers from a scientific point of view start a sticky thread where anyone interested can participate. tk there were some good suggestions earlier in the thread also go out and demo some units. My dealer lets his customers take home equipment to listen to. Good luck in your search.
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Why don’t you people answer the OP’s question rather than recycling the same old argument?
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
This. I just want a nice amp in criteria that I've laid out. I didn't want an argument about double-blind super-secret hidden camera listening tests, because "science". Or trying to explain what a sub does. I'm not a noob and there's a reason why I haven't directly crafted a response to such chatter.


It's like the difference between buying a Mustang and buying a Porsche. Both are equally about as fast 0-60, but one costs double the money (or more). But people might prefer the way the Porsche looks, feels, drives, etc. over the less expensive Mustang.

Point being, it's a stale argument that I don't subscribe to. I've heard and owned too many amps to know that all $400 amps won't sound like an amp that's been more finely tuned or crafted with better materials. Sure...there's snake oil, but not everything is snake oil. If I have to pay a little more for nicer features with more tactile feedback, then so be it.

Heck, I prefer a $35 Class-T amp to a $350 Yamaha that I had. It just sounded better to me. And that's why I wanted to buy from a place that'd accept returns because if a $4K amp doesn't sound as good as a $35 amp, then back it's going...regardless of how well finished it is. I will let my ears be the judge first and foremost.

Now...can we drop this? At least I've gotten a few suggestions that I did not consider before.

^^^^ THANK YOU ^^^^

Tk, here's another one that you might want to consider.

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/m6series/m6si
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post #40 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^^ THANK YOU ^^^^

Tk, here's another one that you might want to consider.

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/m6series/m6si

That's another I was looking at. 220wpc in a class A/B design is a beast of an amp. I like that it comes in silver too.
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post #41 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 10:50 AM
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That's another I was looking at. 220wpc in a class A/B design is a beast of an amp. I like that it comes in silver too.
That's become one of my BFDs. I've grown tired of all this black, identical looking, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha AVR world. I also very much like the silver and will pay more for it.

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post #42 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I wish there was more information about the new Technics line. Love the look of this:


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^^^^^ That is mighty purdy. ^^^^^
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post #44 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 10:56 AM
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I wish there was more information about the new Technics line. Love the look of this:






Perhaps a minimalist approach would be cool. Check out the Arcam SA20. It’s got a lot of bells and whistles. An app, DAC, Phono Stage (I think), etc. It’s got the power of the New Classic 275v2 from Parasound but with the pre amp from the Halo P6.

Just an idea.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #45 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 02:05 PM
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LUXMAN L-505uXII - 100w/ch - $4495 -

http://luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=2

https://www.musicdirect.com/integrat...ated-Amplifier



There are more powerful models for essentially the same amp but the price jumps substantially. For example, the 120w/ch Luxman L-509X is nearly $10,000.

Steve/bluewizard

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post #46 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I know they are a bit cheaper, but how do people feel about the Peachtree Nova's (the Nova 300, specifically)? The 300 is right around $2K and puts out 300wpc (which is probably more than I need, but no such thing as too much I suppose). Class D, but I'm not opposed to a good sounding class D as they've come a long way recently.

And yeah, I still really like that Luxman. The retro look is fantastic.
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Benchmark AHB2 at $3000 is all you ever need. At any price range.
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post #48 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Benchmark AHB2 at $3000 is all you ever need. At any price range.
That's a power amp though. I really want an integrated.
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post #49 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 03:39 PM
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Krell Vanguard Integrated - 200w/ch - $4500 -

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=KRVAN

Marantz PM-KI Ruby - 100w/ch Integrated - $3999 -

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinf...number=MAPMKIR

Bryston B 60R SST Integrated - 60w/ch - $3995 -

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinf...mber=BYB60RSST

Yamaha A-S2100 Integrated - 90w/ch - $3500 -


https://www.abt.com/product/118018/Y...-AS2100SL.html


In this price range though, I'm probably still going for the Luxman L-505uXII.


If you are not absolutely determined to consume all the money -

Rotel RA-1592 Integrated w/DAC - 200w/ch - $2500 -

https://www.abt.com/product/108678/R...r-FR51740.html

Parasound HINT - Halo Integrated w/DAC & Bass Management - 160w/ch - $2995 -


https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinf...mber=PAHAHINT6

Steve/bluewizard

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post #50 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
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That's a power amp though. I really want an integrated.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/...amps-receivers

Look under Class A.

If DAC + Amp works for you I'd strongly recommend Benchmark DAC3 + their Power amp, which totals at $5000 and will easily beat 99% integrated at any price point. And that's what I'm upgrading to from my Parasound HINT.
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tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php, www.dpreview.com/forums, www.bimmerfest.com/forums

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can you stretch the budget a bit more? https://www.ebay.com/itm/PS-Audio-BH...oAAOSwgBVcjXym
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post #52 of 167 Old 03-20-2019, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graustark View Post
I'm not looking for a huge argument either. But it has been established, for years, that power amplifiers, competently designed and level-matched, will sound the same, or, more accurately, cannot be distinguished from each other under double-blind conditions.
Let me preface my remarks by stating that I definitely believe in double-blind testing.

I'm an ex-recording engineer and for years I believed the same thing - that well designed power amps would be indistinguishable. For 2-channel listening, I've been using the same Crown power amp for decades. Recently, I bought the Dynaco ST-70 Series 3 tube power amp, which is a modern version of the original Dynaco ST-70. I expected to hook it up, hear no difference (or have it sound worse than my Crown), take it down, put it back in the box and put it up for sale.

As soon as I turned it on, even before I adjusted the bias, and played some music through it, the difference between the Crown and the Dynaco was astonishing. This wasn't a subtle difference, so I didn't need a blind A-B test (which I didn't have an easy way of hooking up anyway). The Dynaco sounds so damned good and so much better than my Crown, that it makes me want to listen to every single LP and CD I own all over again, which is exactly what I've been doing. It seems far more powerful than my Crown even though they're the same 35 watts per channel. What's interesting is that it also sounds far more powerful (and far better fidelity) than my 100 watts per channel Pioneer A/V receiver, which feeds the same front L-R speakers via an amp switch.
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post #53 of 167 Old 03-21-2019, 01:21 AM
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post #54 of 167 Old 03-21-2019, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _tk View Post
Different speakers are coming later, DAC and turntable I already have. Right now I want to focus on amplification. This is why I didn't put specifics, but I should have known that someone would attempt to read between the lines. Likely those speakers won't be Klipsch or anything with a horn, so I want to get an amp that can handle 4 ohm loads, if I go that route.

And you cannot buy any amp that sounds what I'd call "great" for around $1K. That's just laughable. You can get "good" for that price, but I already have a lot of "good".
Btw, Tk, if you're curious enough to take a listen to my speakers, you're certainly welcome to. If you ended up liking these then it impacts what amp you would choose. I don't know where you are in C-Bus, but probably not all that far from me and I'm in NE New Albany. And I use a Hegel integrated on that system.
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post #55 of 167 Old 03-21-2019, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post
Let me preface my remarks by stating that I definitely believe in double-blind testing.

I'm an ex-recording engineer and for years I believed the same thing - that well designed power amps would be indistinguishable. For 2-channel listening, I've been using the same Crown power amp for decades. Recently, I bought the Dynaco ST-70 Series 3 tube power amp, which is a modern version of the original Dynaco ST-70. I expected to hook it up, hear no difference (or have it sound worse than my Crown), take it down, put it back in the box and put it up for sale.

As soon as I turned it on, even before I adjusted the bias, and played some music through it, the difference between the Crown and the Dynaco was astonishing. This wasn't a subtle difference, so I didn't need a blind A-B test (which I didn't have an easy way of hooking up anyway). The Dynaco sounds so damned good and so much better than my Crown, that it makes me want to listen to every single LP and CD I own all over again, which is exactly what I've been doing. It seems far more powerful than my Crown even though they're the same 35 watts per channel. What's interesting is that it also sounds far more powerful (and far better fidelity) than my 100 watts per channel Pioneer A/V receiver, which feeds the same front L-R speakers via an amp switch.
Not to beat a dead horse, but the Dynaco tube amp 'should've' sounded drastically different as tube amps introduce distortion that many listeners actually find preferable to solid-state offerings.

From the same source as above:

"Solid-state amplifiers typically have output impedances in the range 0.01 to 0.04 ohms (damping factors from 800 to 200). Tube amplifiers typically range from 0.7 to 3.3 ohms (damping factors from 11 to 2.4), and occasionally even more. These are large losses, and when placed in series with the frequency-dependent impedances of loudspeakers, they cause audible changes in spectrum; the loudspeakers have essentially been “revoiced” by the tube power amplifier."
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post #56 of 167 Old 03-21-2019, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
LUXMAN L-505uXII - 100w/ch - $4495 -

http://luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=2

https://www.musicdirect.com/integrat...ated-Amplifier



There are more powerful models for essentially the same amp but the price jumps substantially. For example, the 120w/ch Luxman L-509X is nearly $10,000.

Steve/bluewizard
Luxman understates their power ratings. I've heard this model w/ Paradigm Persona 3F's, Kef Reference 3's, Aerial 7T's and Spendor D9's. Easily handles all these speakers. Also the phono section is more than a add on. Should work great w/his TT.
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post #57 of 167 Old 03-21-2019, 08:39 AM
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Here's a fantastic audio bang for the buck:
http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/...&product_id=55

I own the 15-watt, MP-401integrated 2-channel amp (which, unlike the MP-501 above, has discrete, point to point circuitry; talk about old school). The power of 14 REAL watts is amazing. For example, this relatively small amp absolutely blows away our 62-lb,170-watt/channel Denon AVR-5800 ( https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-av-receiver-0 ) driving our Paradigm Studio 100s at 4 ohms. If you don't think 15 watts per channel is powerful, I've never had the volume control greater than about the 1 o'clock position, when the entire range is about 8 o'clock to about 6 o'clock and I like the loud places in music to be almost uncomfortably loud. (I also use it to amplify a Roland RD-800 digital piano and it and the 100s reproduce its entire 88 notes beautifully-- a task at which the Denon also grossly underperformed by comparison.)

An audiophile friend of mine, who knows the owner of Musical Paradise (who also designs what he sells), owns the MP-501 that drives a couple of ancient British speaker boxes that have multiple internal speakers, including 15" woofers (absolutely no need for subwoofers with this combo). An expensive CD player is the source. I've listened to that system it on several occasions. He and I both agree that it's a great system. (He also owns a discrete-component, tube-based system for listening to his collection of vinyl that includes 6-foot-tall electrostatic speakers to vibrate air. I've heard that system, too, and listening to the result from both systems confirms by belief that the MP-501 is a fantastic bang for the buck.)

Good luck.
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post #58 of 167 Old 03-21-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldark View Post
Not to beat a dead horse, but the Dynaco tube amp 'should've' sounded drastically different as tube amps introduce distortion that many listeners actually find preferable to solid-state offerings.

From the same source as above:

"Solid-state amplifiers typically have output impedances in the range 0.01 to 0.04 ohms (damping factors from 800 to 200). Tube amplifiers typically range from 0.7 to 3.3 ohms (damping factors from 11 to 2.4), and occasionally even more. These are large losses, and when placed in series with the frequency-dependent impedances of loudspeakers, they cause audible changes in spectrum; the loudspeakers have essentially been “revoiced” by the tube power amplifier."
Yes, tube amps can introduce distortion if they're over-driven. They will clip a sine-wave into a square wave and generate even order harmonics, which our brains "like". Most amps, tube or solid state, accept loudspeaker impedances from 4 to 8 ohms without great variations in output frequency response. One of the things I've noticed about the Dynaco is that it has far better low-frequency response than the Crown, so much so that I rarely bother with my subwoofer when I use it. Is that due to better quality parts, better design, age of the Crown (leaky capacitors?) or the damping factors that you cite? In the end, I don't really care. All I know is, it sounds great.

Back in my studio days (in the 1970's-80's), we used the original Dynaco amps in all of the studios, but in dual-mono configuration per speaker (so two amps in each room). The amps were driven by Opamp based preamps which were driven by the mixing boards. At another company, we completely rebuilt the recording and mixing rooms, but for the life of me, I can't remember what we used for power amps, which makes me think they must have been rack-mounted solid state amps, probably Crowns because they had a rack-mounted 1" tall model that didn't take a lot of room in the rack.
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post #59 of 167 Old 03-21-2019, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Btw, Tk, if you're curious enough to take a listen to my speakers, you're certainly welcome to. If you ended up liking these then it impacts what amp you would choose. I don't know where you are in C-Bus, but probably not all that far from me and I'm in NE New Albany. And I use a Hegel integrated on that system.
Which speakers do you have? I have a few speakers in mind and the pricerange I'm looking at, but for now I'm going to see how the new amp plays with what I already have in that room. This amp will also be front and center when guests come in the door, hence is why I'd somewhat like a "show piece", so to speak.

I really need to clear some of my other "stock" of speakers that I have, so if you know of anyone locally looking for a nice starter system (amp, speakers, etc), send them my way. I hate dealing with craigslist. I'm not too far from New Albany...roughly the Pickerington area.



That Luxman though....really starting to move that up my list. Checks most/all of the boxes. I'm a sucker for real bass/treble/balance knobs.
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post #60 of 167 Old 03-21-2019, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _tk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Btw, Tk, if you're curious enough to take a listen to my speakers, you're certainly welcome to. If you ended up liking these then it impacts what amp you would choose. I don't know where you are in C-Bus, but probably not all that far from me and I'm in NE New Albany. And I use a Hegel integrated on that system.
Which speakers do you have? I have a few speakers in mind and the pricerange I'm looking at, but for now I'm going to see how the new amp plays with what I already have in that room. This amp will also be front and center when guests come in the door, hence is why I'd somewhat like a "show piece", so to speak.

I really need to clear some of my other "stock" of speakers that I have, so if you know of anyone locally looking for a nice starter system (amp, speakers, etc), send them my way. I hate dealing with craigslist. I'm not too far from New Albany...roughly the Pickerington area.



That Luxman though....really starting to move that up my list. Checks most/all of the boxes. I'm a sucker for real bass/treble/balance knobs.
You already know about the Elacs and B&Ws I have, but what's downstairs are the small $2,500 Martin logan EM ESLs, sold locally by best buy and Genesis in Gahanna. BB doesn't come remotely close to positioning these properly, but
I've owned ESLs in at least one of my systems for 60 years so I've gotten pretty good at making these do what they can do.

The presentation is so different that it might be worth you hearing them. Plus, since you are very familiar with the Elacs F6.2s, we set those up right next to the ESLs to give some frame of reference.
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