If you had ~$4K for a 2 Channel Amplifier... - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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If you had ~$4K for a 2 Channel Amplifier...

...what would you recommend?

It doesn't need a DAC, it doesn't need anymore than 2 channels, etc. Just great (would prefer warm) sound, a few RCA inputs, great phono, etc. It will be running two tower speakers (that are somewhat demanding), probably no subwoofer.

Music will be most genres, but a good system shouldn't have problems playing anything.

I want to make sure that I'm not missing anything that I should be checking out. I specifically didn't want to narrow anything down (just yet). Not a lot of places to check this stuff out locally for me so this is more than likely going to be an internet purchase.

Thoughts, ideas, etc? Again, I have a list that I've narrowed, but I'm sure I'm not considering something that I should be.
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post #2 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 09:44 AM
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Since you need a phono input that means an integrated amp correct?

I’d look at the Parasound Hint 6, at $2995.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #3 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I want to lean towards an integrated.

I've briefly looked at the Parasound and I did like it, just haven't done a lot of research on it.
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post #4 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 09:51 AM
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it couldn't hurt to explore some offerings from Rogue Audio, such as their Pharaoh integrated.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Iss...ue_pharaoh.htm
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post #5 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 10:32 AM
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That is exactly what I spent on a "Demo" Bryston 4b3 a year or 2 ago. 20 year warranted. It is a very well engineered, crafted, and measuring product.
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post #6 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 10:48 AM
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There’s a Devialet D200 and a Luxman 507U on the Gon for under your budget. Two ends of a spectrum depending on your tastes.
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post #7 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 11:16 AM
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post #8 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
It will be running two tower speakers (that are somewhat demanding),
What exactly does that mean? The speakers insist on their sandwiches served cut diagonally with the crusts removed, but they still say "please"?

How about about an impedance and phase vs. frequency plot? Sensitivity rating? Or at least make and model so we can look them up ourselves? Your listening habits matter, too.

FWIW, if I had $4k to spend, I'd put $1k into amplification, and $3k elsewhere...

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post #9 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
What exactly does that mean? The speakers insist on their sandwiches served cut diagonally with the crusts removed, but they still say "please"?



How about about an impedance and phase vs. frequency plot? Sensitivity rating? Or at least make and model so we can look them up ourselves? Your listening habits matter, too.



FWIW, if I had $4k to spend, I'd put $1k into amplification, and $3k elsewhere...

I think it’s more of a “They only eat PBnJ’s, but the Jam must be strawberry smuckers preserves and the PB has to be extra creamy JIF. None other or they won’t eat it. They’ll eat the crusts on Wednesday’s and Friday’s but only if you threaten no Fortnite for a week”.

But where would he spend the other 3k? He’s already got speakers and a DAC apparently, and a turn table.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #10 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
What exactly does that mean? The speakers insist on their sandwiches served cut diagonally with the crusts removed, but they still say "please"?

How about about an impedance and phase vs. frequency plot? Sensitivity rating? Or at least make and model so we can look them up ourselves? Your listening habits matter, too.

FWIW, if I had $4k to spend, I'd put $1k into amplification, and $3k elsewhere...

Different speakers are coming later, DAC and turntable I already have. Right now I want to focus on amplification. This is why I didn't put specifics, but I should have known that someone would attempt to read between the lines. Likely those speakers won't be Klipsch or anything with a horn, so I want to get an amp that can handle 4 ohm loads, if I go that route.

And you cannot buy any amp that sounds what I'd call "great" for around $1K. That's just laughable. You can get "good" for that price, but I already have a lot of "good".
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post #11 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 01:19 PM
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Check out the Marantz PM-KI Ruby. It is one of their reference, made in Japan, integrated amps.
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post #12 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Check out the Marantz PM-KI Ruby. It is one of their reference, made in Japan, integrated amps.

It's in my top 3. Just cannot find any reviews on it, but fortunately both MD and Crutchfield carry it, so it'd be easily returnable.

It checks all of the boxes though.
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post #13 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
Different speakers are coming later,
And *that's* one place I'd save most of that $4k for.

Quote:
DAC and turntable I already have. Right now I want to focus on amplification. This is why I didn't put specifics, but I should have known that someone would attempt to read between the lines.
Just trying to be helpful. The amp mainly cares about what load you put on it (both ohms and phase angle), at what power level, at what frequency. That depends on the speakers, the source material, and how loud you like to listen. Nobody's going to be able to give you a valid recommendation unless they know those last three things, no matter what angle they're coming from.

What do you mainly listen to? Stravinsky? Kenny G? Skrillex? How loud - do you have any idea what dB level? Background, close your eyes while in the sweet spot, or loud enough for the party in the back yard?

Whether you approach it from an engineering standpoint or a trial-and-error standpoint, certain things work best together. There's also a price criteria, so you probably can't afford "the best ever made that works best with everything all the time", whatever that might be, if it even exists. That's the whole point of asking us here, right?

Quote:
Likely those speakers won't be Klipsch or anything with a horn,
Not all Klipsch horns are the same, not all horns are Klipsch horns. Even the horn-o-philes will stress that not all horns are the same. But it's your choice, no problem. It does help set an upper limit on sensitivity and power handling for the high frequencies, so that info does help a little.

Quote:
so I want to get an amp that can handle 4 ohm loads, if I go that route.
That helps a little more, but not much. Almost every amp is rated for 4R loads. A speaker load is a lot more complicated than a single number. Is it really 4, or did the manufacturer round up? Average? Over how wide a frequency range(s)? Is it capacitive at that point? Is it lowest at high frequencies? Or only below the frequencies in the music you like?

Going 2.1 with a sub makes a huge difference. It takes the load off the mains at the point where they're usually the most compromised. It also gives you the flexibility to locate it where it gives the best bass response, something impossible to do with your front two speakers if they're going to do their job well. Plus, if powered, it drastically reduces the power requirement for the amp for the main speakers.

And really you need two subs for best bass at the sweet spot. Three if you want somebody else to enjoy it with you. That's another place I'd spend the majority of that $4k.

Quote:
And you cannot buy any amp that sounds what I'd call "great" for around $1K. That's just laughable. You can get "good" for that price, but I already have a lot of "good".
We can agree to strongly disagree, plenty of other places where this has been debated to death... To be helpful, you might want to consider how you would describe the difference between "good" and "great" in more concrete terms. This will also help others to help you, no matter what their viewpoint.

I think the main thing is to figure out if you really want to limit yourself to *integrated* amps with phono inputs(MM and/or MC?), or get a separate preamp for more flexibility. If you do go with a subwoofer or two, you'll really want to cross it over with your mains. If you can't (or don't want to) use the subwoofer to do this, you'll need that feature in the preamp. You're even less likely to find an active crossover in an integrated amp.

A receiver would be your best bet, even if you don't need extra channels or other features, and $4k can get you a lot of receiver! You can also get standalone processing and a separate serious 2-channel amp for under $1k, but I get the feeling you'd balk at my suggestions.

Please carefully consider how the rest of your system affects your options.

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post #14 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 01:57 PM
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post #15 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 02:09 PM
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How about the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium Integrated Amp? It's $3400.00 and very highly rated. No phono stage but you can get a pretty decent one for the remaining $600.00. PrimaLuna products are very well made and sound great. I'm a tube guy and you lean towards a warm sound. This is the one. The only caveat here is you need relatively efficient speakers.
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post #16 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
And *that's* one place I'd save most of that $4k for.
$4K is not my overall budget...by any stretch of the imagination. I wanted to start the upgrade process in this room with a nice amp and the $4K range seems to get me there. I could go more, I could go less. This is just a sweet spot that I picked for my setup.



Quote:
Just trying to be helpful. The amp mainly cares about what load you put on it (both ohms and phase angle), at what power level, at what frequency. That depends on the speakers, the source material, and how loud you like to listen. Nobody's going to be able to give you a valid recommendation unless they know those last three things, no matter what angle they're coming from.

What do you mainly listen to? Stravinsky? Kenny G? Skrillex? How loud - do you have any idea what dB level? Background, close your eyes while in the sweet spot, or loud enough for the party in the back yard?
Not a party amp. If I wanted that there are plenty of screaming amps for a lot cheaper. Please assume that I arrived at this figure with some sort of research/experience.


Quote:
Not all Klipsch horns are the same, not all horns are Klipsch horns. Even the horn-o-philes will stress that not all horns are the same. But it's your choice, no problem. It does help set an upper limit on sensitivity and power handling for the high frequencies, so that info does help a little.
Yeah...no horns. I want detail, I want dynamics...I won't be hosting house parties with my 100 friends and a DJ so volume will be low to moderate.



Quote:
That helps a little more, but not much. Almost every amp is rated for 4R loads. A speaker load is a lot more complicated than a single number. Is it really 4, or did the manufacturer round up? Average? Over how wide a frequency range(s)? Is it capacitive at that point? Is it lowest at high frequencies? Or only below the frequencies in the music you like?
Let's just assume 4 ohms and nothing more beyond that.

Quote:
Going 2.1 with a sub makes a huge difference. It takes the load off the mains at the point where they're usually the most compromised. It also gives you the flexibility to locate it where it gives the best bass response, something impossible to do with your front two speakers if they're going to do their job well. Plus, if powered, it drastically reduces the power requirement for the amp for the main speakers.
No sub for now. While I like bass, I think my floorstanders will provide enough of that for my satisfaction. Music only.

Quote:
And really you need two subs for best bass at the sweet spot. Three if you want somebody else to enjoy it with you. That's another place I'd spend the majority of that $4k.
Again, $4K is not a hard limit.



Quote:
We can agree to strongly disagree, plenty of other places where this has been debated to death... To be helpful, you might want to consider how you would describe the difference between "good" and "great" in more concrete terms. This will also help others to help you, no matter what their viewpoint.

I think the main thing is to figure out if you really want to limit yourself to *integrated* amps with phono inputs(MM and/or MC?), or get a separate preamp for more flexibility. If you do go with a subwoofer or two, you'll really want to cross it over with your mains. If you can't (or don't want to) use the subwoofer to do this, you'll need that feature in the preamp. You're even less likely to find an active crossover in an integrated amp.

A receiver would be your best bet, even if you don't need extra channels or other features, and $4k can get you a lot of receiver! You can also get standalone processing and a separate serious 2-channel amp for under $1k, but I get the feeling you'd balk at my suggestions.

Please carefully consider how the rest of your system affects your options.

I'm not going to debate any of this nor am I going to buy a $1000 receiver or integrated.
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The Luxman 505 UXii is a excellent integrated. Very hard to beat in this price range.
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post #18 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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The Luxman 505 UXii is a excellent integrated. Very hard to beat in this price range.

That was also on my short list. Definitely one of the best looking in that price range.

Do you have one/heard one?
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
That was also on my short list. Definitely one of the best looking in that price range.

Do you have one/heard one?
My local dealer sells the full line of Luxman gear. Listened to the 505 many times. Sounds great w/any speaker you match it with. I really like it w/the Spendor D7's. I own two Luxman products. The all tube CL 38U SE preamp. It is the 90th anniversary preamp a limited edition that they only made 100 units. I also recently purchased the PD 171A Turntable. If you have a Luxman dealer near you it's worth checking out.
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post #20 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 07:26 PM
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(I wish you hadna said this.) A $400 amplifier will sound just the same as a $4,000 amp almost always. Now, if you're looking for a lot of wattage, you might need to spend more than $400. Otherwise, no.


@fill35U is quite right, and this has been debated for, oh, seems like centuries now. But if you want a $4,000 amp for pride of ownership, or just for grins, fine. But otherwise, more money does not translate into better sound. These things do one thing, basically, and they mastered that trick long ago.
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post #21 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Graustark View Post
(I wish you hadna said this.) A $400 amplifier will sound just the same as a $4,000 amp almost always. Now, if you're looking for a lot of wattage, you might need to spend more than $400. Otherwise, no.


@fill35U is quite right, and this has been debated for, oh, seems like centuries now. But if you want a $4,000 amp for pride of ownership, or just for grins, fine. But otherwise, more money does not translate into better sound. These things do one thing, basically, and they mastered that trick long ago.

I disagree with this. Just to play devils advocate here, no need to get in a huge argument. If it does, I will just shut up for being stupid lol.

If you buy a $400 Emotiva Bas-X amp, and compare it with a $3000 Parasound A21+, is it going to sound the same? My guess would be no...

I do agree on your point of you will need to spend more to gain more quality wattage. What I don’t agree on is that going from a $400 amp to a $4000 amp will provide no improvement/sound the same.

I will also be that guy that says that most amps do not in fact sound the same. I have 3 AVR’s and a Parasound power amp, and not one sounds the same, in fact I am sure I am able to differentiate each one from each other blindly.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #22 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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It's like saying that all internal combustion engines sound the same because they are all built with the same principal in mind.

None of my amps sound the same either. Heck, I can usually tell a somewhat distinct sound signature/difference between models even at a place like Best Buy Magnolia in one of their crappy rooms.

But maybe I should just buy a $399 Onkyo AVR and tell everyone "it sounds just as good" as the Luxman or Marantz that I was looking at?

I'm not sure why this is even being brought up though. It's my money...let me "foolishly" spend it on what I want/like.
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I disagree with this. Just to play devils advocate here, no need to get in a huge argument. If it does, I will just shut up for being stupid lol.

If you buy a $400 Emotiva Bas-X amp, and compare it with a $3000 Parasound A21+, is it going to sound the same? My guess would be no...

I do agree on your point of you will need to spend more to gain more quality wattage. What I don’t agree on is that going from a $400 amp to a $4000 amp will provide no improvement/sound the same.

I will also be that guy that says that most amps do not in fact sound the same. I have 3 AVR’s and a Parasound power amp, and not one sounds the same, in fact I am sure I am able to differentiate each one from each other blindly.
I'm not looking for a huge argument either. But it has been established, for years, that power amplifiers, competently designed and level-matched, will sound the same, or, more accurately, cannot be distinguished from each other under double-blind conditions.


An example only: Some years ago, Tom Nousaine drove from Michigan to Florida to administer a double-blind test to the late Steve Zipser. Steve owned a stereo store and had a megabuck Pass amplifier that he swore he could distinguish from anything. Tom brought along a cheap Yamaha amp. Bottom line: Steve could not distinguish between the Pass and the Yamaha after many tests. And Steve was a quite experienced listener (as well as a great guy, as was Tom) who owned a high end store.


There are numerous accounts of similar tests, and the results are almost always the same. (Tom did the test with another audio guy in Michigan, I think it was, and that guy couldn't distinguish between his amp and Tom's either. Afterward, Tom discovered that the amp he had brought actually had a 2 dB channel imbalance, and still the guy failed.)


You could put that Yamaha up against a Mark Levinson, and the result would be the same. No salesman will tell you this. Nor will Stereophile.
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post #24 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 08:06 PM
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It's like saying that all internal combustion engines sound the same because they are all built with the same principal in mind.

None of my amps sound the same either. Heck, I can usually tell a somewhat distinct sound signature/difference between models even at a place like Best Buy Magnolia in one of their crappy rooms.

But maybe I should just buy a $399 Onkyo AVR and tell everyone "it sounds just as good" as the Luxman or Marantz that I was looking at?

I'm not sure why this is even being brought up though. It's my money...let me "foolishly" spend it on what I want/like.
Unless you've tested them correctly under double-blind conditions, you can't really make that claim. (And I'm talking power amplifiers here, not AVRs.)


As to the money, have at it. The problem is not for you, apparently, it's for people who are led to spend money they can't afford on equipment they are told sounds better and different. It doesn't.
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post #25 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 08:09 PM
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I don't own one, but I would suggest you look at the Anthem STR

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_973STR...SAAEgLRFPD_BwE

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post #26 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Graustark View Post
I'm not looking for a huge argument either. But it has been established, for years, that power amplifiers, competently designed and level-matched, will sound the same, or, more accurately, cannot be distinguished from each other under double-blind conditions.


An example only: Some years ago, Tom Nousaine drove from Michigan to Florida to administer a double-blind test to the late Steve Zipser. Steve owned a stereo store and had a megabuck Pass amplifier that he swore he could distinguish from anything. Tom brought along a cheap Yamaha amp. Bottom line: Steve could not distinguish between the Pass and the Yamaha after many tests. And Steve was a quite experienced listener (as well as a great guy, as was Tom) who owned a high end store.


There are numerous accounts of similar tests, and the results are almost always the same. (Tom did the test with another audio guy in Michigan, I think it was, and that guy couldn't distinguish between his amp and Tom's either. Afterward, Tom discovered that the amp he had brought actually had a 2 dB channel imbalance, and still the guy failed.)


You could put that Yamaha up against a Mark Levinson, and the result would be the same. No salesman will tell you this. Nor will Stereophile.

Well I guess it comes down to the age old “YMMV”. While I’m not going to dispute your evidence, I invite you to come try out my three AVR’s. (My Parasound is going back soon) And I think you too would be surprised how differently each one sounds. I don’t know the technical term for this, but certain amps add “strength of bass” (we’ll call it that for now). My Parasound amp (New Classic 275v2, 90 wpc into 8 ohms) made these Klipsch KG4.2 Speakers I have very proficient in playing the bottom octaves. I’d try to do the same with my new Onkyo TX NR-656 (supposedly 100 wpc into 8 ohms), and there was no bass.... it would be the same loudness, even louder actually (I had a Umik to measure this) and the bass was just not there. No EQ on either of these. Tell me what happened?

I’d really like to know, as that wasn’t a sarcastic question. If you can tell me what the hell happened, I’m happy to shut up and hop on the everything sounds the same train, cause I do believe that after a certain point/price, they do start sounding the same. Except for when you start changing classes
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #27 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graustark View Post
I'm not looking for a huge argument either. But it has been established, for years, that power amplifiers, competently designed and level-matched, will sound the same, or, more accurately, cannot be distinguished from each other under double-blind conditions.


An example only: Some years ago, Tom Nousaine drove from Michigan to Florida to administer a double-blind test to the late Steve Zipser. Steve owned a stereo store and had a megabuck Pass amplifier that he swore he could distinguish from anything. Tom brought along a cheap Yamaha amp. Bottom line: Steve could not distinguish between the Pass and the Yamaha after many tests. And Steve was a quite experienced listener (as well as a great guy, as was Tom) who owned a high end store.


There are numerous accounts of similar tests, and the results are almost always the same. (Tom did the test with another audio guy in Michigan, I think it was, and that guy couldn't distinguish between his amp and Tom's either. Afterward, Tom discovered that the amp he had brought actually had a 2 dB channel imbalance, and still the guy failed.)


You could put that Yamaha up against a Mark Levinson, and the result would be the same. No salesman will tell you this. Nor will Stereophile.
So hilarious to me that you would hang your hat on one anecdotal “blind test” in spite of thousands/millions of people whose direct experiences don’t jive with this.
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post #28 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 09:57 PM
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@Graustark , thanks for the support! But I do think there's some common ground in these debates:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graustark View Post
A $400 amplifier will sound just the same as a $4,000 amp almost always. Now, if you're looking for a lot of wattage, you might need to spend more than $400. Otherwise, no.
I actually think a $4k amp would be more likely to have a perceptibly different sound than a $400 amp. Reason being, at the higher price you're getting into the realm of conspicuous consumption. Exotic and nostalgic technologies (vacuum tubes, VFETs, fully-balanced, allegedly "zero feedback", or Class A) that make no economic sense or audible difference, but confer bragging rights. So to justify the expenditure, the amps are given (or allowed to have?) sonic colorations that set them apart. After all, if the design work consists of just picking a couple of ICE Power modules, what's there to set your company apart other than how pretty the metal box is?:

Attack of the Clone Amplifiers

@_tk , read that article and then tell us again that price guarantees better amplifier performance?

"All amps sound the same" is *false*. That's because that statement is an oversimplification.

"All well-designed amps in good condition operated properly within proper specifications and precisely level-matched for gain and evaluated without bias sound the same" is *true*. The problem is, it's very difficult for the average person to verify those conditions. Standard amp tests don't even guarantee the end user will always experience those conditions.

Some folks don't want neutral sounding gear. For whatever reason, they've got colorations that they're looking to cancel out. Couple this with the uncertainty of how different gear reacts with each other, and you've got a trial-and-error subjective approach to a "synergy" that results in a final perfect summation. It's an expensive and time-consuming process, which explains why the amount of money spent is so revered by subjective hobbyists.

OTOH, *professional* sound reproduction is all about providing the best sound to the most people for the least time and money, and inherent neutrality throughout the chain is the goal. Once you get out of entry-level, pro amps are much more likely to "all sound the same". Of course, no "serious audiophile" wants anything to do with pro gear: it's too complicated to use, too ugly, and too inexpensive for what it does.

So yes, I think there are differences between amps. But any way you look at it, the more information the OP gives, the more likely he'll get recommendations that could result in an overall sound that he likes.
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Sources/processing: stack of stuff that if it isn't vintage now, it will be soon!
Amps: stacks and stacks of old iron
Main speakers: big DIYSG
Surrounds: Bose graveyard
Subs: a bunch
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post #29 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graustark View Post
I'm not looking for a huge argument either. But it has been established, for years, that power amplifiers, competently designed and level-matched, will sound the same, or, more accurately, cannot be distinguished from each other under double-blind conditions.


An example only: Some years ago, Tom Nousaine drove from Michigan to Florida to administer a double-blind test to the late Steve Zipser. Steve owned a stereo store and had a megabuck Pass amplifier that he swore he could distinguish from anything. Tom brought along a cheap Yamaha amp. Bottom line: Steve could not distinguish between the Pass and the Yamaha after many tests. And Steve was a quite experienced listener (as well as a great guy, as was Tom) who owned a high end store.


There are numerous accounts of similar tests, and the results are almost always the same. (Tom did the test with another audio guy in Michigan, I think it was, and that guy couldn't distinguish between his amp and Tom's either. Afterward, Tom discovered that the amp he had brought actually had a 2 dB channel imbalance, and still the guy failed.)


You could put that Yamaha up against a Mark Levinson, and the result would be the same. No salesman will tell you this. Nor will Stereophile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graustark View Post
Unless you've tested them correctly under double-blind conditions, you can't really make that claim. (And I'm talking power amplifiers here, not AVRs.)


As to the money, have at it. The problem is not for you, apparently, it's for people who are led to spend money they can't afford on equipment they are told sounds better and different. It doesn't.

Look, I know you're new here and all, but we've been through this hundreds if not thousands of times. All it results in is a locked thread.
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post #30 of 138 Old 03-19-2019, 10:13 PM
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I think id narrow down to 2 or 3 that you think youd like and shop shop shop. I prefer to start with American made first followed by Japan ..

4000 for a piece of equipment is a good sum of money! How that 4000 was invested in the said piece is the big question as big "pretty" cases cost more money than say a stamped piece of metal.

I prefer tubes as I love how they look as well as their signature sound with horns.

JBL Array 1400, 880, & 800s on custom sound anchors / Revel C763L x4
Marantz AV8805 / TEAC NT-505 / Oppo 205 / Emotiva XPA DR3 / Emotiva XPA-7 Gen3
PSA S1801 x2
Bob Carver Crimson 350 tube monoblocks
JBL Everest DD67000s (awaiting amplification)
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