Can be sound of Chromecast Audio improved with external DAC - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 273 Old 06-17-2019, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Because of the way you treat myself and others with persistent attacks and insults, and your obvious attempt to undermine my earlier post, you are the only person on AVS I am not inclined to help.
I politely asked for the name of the person you had just had a "lengthy conversation" with, you knew to be the "head of RME's technical department" yet you can't/won't answer my exceedingly simple question as to their name?

Hmmm. . . That's a red flag in my book.
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post #182 of 273 Old 06-17-2019, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Also to clarify, I sometimes use EQ for personal taste but the concept of buying wires, DACs, and amps to achieve that coloration is bizarre from my perspective: Those are fixed colorations, non-defeatable, and arbitrary curves rather that being designed from the get-go as a way to change the sound due to a :

- room deficiency
- speaker deficiency
- recording deficiency
- personal taste.
I think that what you're missing, deliberately or otherwise, is that even the DAC's whose goal is to "do no harm/alteration" to the signal such as a Benchmark still has a sonic fingerprint in comparison to other DACs.

First of all, nobody knows what the "absolute sound" that you claim to strive for is. A useless goal IMO but to each their own. Many people associate Benchmark's DAC sound as slightly thin sounding in comparison to others. Is that the absolute sound then?

Secondly, even Benchmark must make the call if they want to use linear vs. minimum phase filters, do they want to upsample all signals to a rate before filtering, what sample rate that is, what type of analog output stage to use, etc. etc. These all impact the sound, as Benchmark freely admits.

Lastly, I do not buy components to "color" my sound a certain way. I did buy components that produced the synergy that was pleasing to my ear in my own room. And after testing many DACs I can say with certainty that they do sound quite different. I would say that most are fairly similar in tonality with some slight differences at the frequency extremes, but the most striking differences are usually in the creation of soundstage presentation (forward vs. back) and the overall space and air that they produce.
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post #183 of 273 Old 06-17-2019, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
I think that what you're missing, deliberately or otherwise, is that even the DAC's whose goal is to "do no harm/alteration" to the signal such as a Benchmark still has a sonic fingerprint in comparison to other DACs.
No, according to them they are audibly transparent and have no signature sound, as they concur with me is the goal of such a device:
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
"Benchmark converters are designed to be sonically neutral. This sonic transparency is absolutely essential in the studio monitoring chain.

Benchmark converters have become a standard fixture in many of the world's finest studios."
[bold text emphasis mine]

Benchmark

Looks like they agree with my signature:

"Bring the Studio into Your Living Room

When Benchmark's professional converters are used in hi-fi applications, studio-quality sound can be enjoyed in a home environment. Enjoy pure music without any coloration from the electronics. Hear the music exactly the way it was heard in the studio, and exactly the way the artists intended."
Emcdade, are you willing to take my challenge as outlined in post 112? [No money since I can't proctor the test, just a gentleman's bet.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #184 of 273 Old 06-17-2019, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
No, according to them they are audibly transparent and have no signature sound, as they concur with me is the goal of such a device:


Emcdade, are you willing to take my challenge as outlined in post 112? [No money since I can't proctor the test, just a gentleman's bet.]
And like I said, Benchmark has no idea what the "absolute sound" even is. Now you're regurgitating marketing material.

No thanks on any tests.
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post #185 of 273 Old 06-17-2019, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
No thanks on any tests.
I guess you are afraid you'd fail to be able to distinguish the "sonic signature" of my $29 DAC and ADC circuits.

Good call: you would fail because it is audibly transparent, as all good DACs should be.

[Although I don't discount that using defeatable EQ and other modifications to music can have benefits in some situations and if some people dig getting a "free equalizer" built in to another product, like a DAC, rather than using an outboard one, that's fine.]
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post #186 of 273 Old 06-17-2019, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
...even the DAC's whose goal is to "do no harm/alteration" to the signal such as a Benchmark still has a sonic fingerprint in comparison to other DACs.
Here is one part of their DACs' sonic signature that they are proud to promote (from their website; my underlining):

"Discover the natural, uncolored, analog sound of Benchmark converters."

Kudos to their analog-loving hearts.

Music room: Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000II linear-tracking turntable.
Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.
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post #187 of 273 Old 06-17-2019, 11:27 PM
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I would agree that DACs and ADCs, should be 100% indistinguishable from the original analog source.


In the 1970s it cost 10's of thousands of dollars to pull off. Such as this:

In the 1980's it cost thousands of dollars.
In the 1990-2000's it cost hundreds of dollars.
And in 2019 it costs under $100.

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post #188 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 12:45 AM
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Benchmark is probably a nice Dac...

I'm happy for you.

But that doesn't change the facts.
Other than that, the discussion has moved forward.

From -All Dacs sounds the same!

To -Filters and EQ is stupid!
-Dacs that makes their own house sound is bad!

Kudos
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post #189 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 01:59 AM
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Evidence that all good DACs sound the same is the observation that the group of people who claim they can hear differences are terrified to take a blind test, even when it is at no cost to them, to back up their claim, so they refuse the test.

Speaks volumes.

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post #190 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Evidence that all good DACs sound the same is the observation that the group of people who claim they can hear differences are terrified to take a blind test, even when it is at no cost to them, to back up their claim, so they refuse the test.
I would take a test, but it takes long time.. I guess 2 days.

2 days off I like to use only relax, have a beer and listen to music.

Ask the nulltester, it's his job.
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post #191 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
I would take a test, but it takes long time.. I guess 2 days.
You can't tell if one DAC sounds different from another unless you've heard it for 48 hrs straight?

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post #192 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 02:18 AM
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You can't tell if one DAC sounds different from another unless you've heard it for 48 hrs?
You probably don't understand the time needed with a lot of music to do a test/review.

Actually I want a week, but if I have two days I believe I would get a short idea.

I bet you would test with a sound clip 5 minutes? Am I right??
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post #193 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 02:20 AM
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On the other hand if you asked me to test with my gear... The album "Tankerop".

I could do the test in 15 minutes.

Are you interested?
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post #194 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
You probably don't understand the time needed with a lot of music to do a test/review.

Actually I want a week, but if I have two days I believe I would get a short idea.

If you watched the video you'd know that the test music can any length you want: 1 second, 1 minute, 1 song, 1 hour, 1 album, 1 day, 1 week etc.

also the time to take the full test can be at any speed you want: 10 seconds, 10 minutes, 10 hours, 10 days, 10 months, etc.

You can pause the test, put the computer to sleep on one day, and the test can be recommenced days/weeks later. The only thing you can't do is close the program or close Windows.
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post #195 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 02:33 AM
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The problem with abx testing in short soundclips is that you test only a few songs.

I don't know how long time I used to find the difference in especially "Tankerop".

It took weeks, to listen to alot of music, but I think I was sure that this was a strange mix..

We are talking about some like +2 dB in treble or so in the mix "wild guess" and a lot of it.

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post #196 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 02:34 AM
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Conversations about two-channel audio almost always seem to get more heated than an overpriced, overengineered Chord DAC.

Personally, I like DACs offering some control over sound signature even though I almost always go with standard sound and do tone control/EQ at the amp stage. Chips have configurable filters, so why not offer the options?
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post #197 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
The problem with abx testing in short soundclips is that you test only a few songs.
Incorrect, you can test as many songs as you want with ABX [or a complete album all at once if that's your thing].

You also can pre-train with all the music openly both pre-test and during the test, since it is open book, for as many hour, days, weeks, months, or years that you want.

I'm unwilling to prepare the files for you though. I was offering to spend the considerable time it takes to prepare the test file which passes through my cheap DAC for one song, of your choice, at my financial expense out of my pocket for the CD purchase, but since you previously declined and are now changing your mind I no longer trust your resolve to actually carry out the test. For all I know I'll waste my money to buy the CD, spend hours of my time carefully level matching the sound to a very precise tolerance, and synchronizing it down to the exact sample [not an automatic procedure: it takes considerable time and is done by hand], only to discover you are suddenly backing out like you already did here:

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No I don't care..

Just to help you in your "science experiment"
The deal is off.

---

I'll be posting a video showing people how to make this into a bet to win money from one's "expert" friends who claim to hear DAC differences in the near future, or you can do it as a gentleman's bet as I proposed here. I only bet money if I can be there to proctor the test and would advise everyone else to do the same.

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post #198 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 03:06 AM
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Incorrect, you can test as many songs as you want with ABX. I'm unwilling to prepare the files for you though. I was offering to spend the considerable time it takes to prepare the test file which passes through my cheap DAC for one song, of your choice, at my financial expense out of my pocket for the CD purchase, but since you previously declined and are now changing your mind I no longer trust your resolve to actually carry out the test. For all I know I'll waste my money to buy the CD, spend hours of my time carefully level matching the sound to a very precise tolerance, and synchronizing it down to the exact sample [not an automatic procedure: it takes considerable time and is done by hand], only to discover you are suddenly backing out like you already did here:







The deal is off.



---



I'll be posting a video showing people how to make this into a bet to win money from one's "expert" friends in the near future. I only bet money if I can be there to proctor the test and would advise everyone else to do the same.
???

Your choice, moneybet was never mentioned.

What you asking people takes time, and what songs do you test?

What's the point if you don't test with challenging music/mixes?


You don't need to buy the cd, connect your Dacs to your computer and play YouTube free or Spotify.

The issues with the album is still there.

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post #199 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 03:13 AM
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And what is it that you want to prove?
That Dacs don't have different character?

Or is it a matter of different price on products??
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post #200 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 03:16 AM
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And what is it that you want to prove?
That at least some cheap dacs for $29 are "good" [effectively perfect to the ear], 100% transparent using any music of the listener's choice, to any ear, through any system, with as much pre-training as the listener wants, under normal playback conditions. Good night for now.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #201 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 03:21 AM
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That at least some cheap dacs for $29 are "good", 100% transparent using any music, to any ear , through any system, under normal conditions.
I think that's an impossible task.

The idea of
"Transparence" in audio isn't a fixed idea.

It's different to everyone.


Just as the hifi companies idea of great sounds is different....
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post #202 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 03:31 AM
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To help your test again..

It's better if you ask which Dac the test subject prefers...


And to "Any music" is a very bold statement...

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post #203 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
The idea of
"Transparence" in audio isn't a fixed idea.

It's different to everyone.
No it is not different for everyone when we have access to the direct, original sound source, however I admit it is theoretically possible some astute listeners using top flight gear on specially selected music can indeed detect subtle differences which elude other listeners using inferior, less resolving systems. This is why when I challenge people to bets [either gentleman's bets or for money when I can proctor the test] I always let them pick the "top flight gear" themselves, and when possible [and I'm feeling generous] I buy the exact music of their choice out of my pocket. I only feel generous when my gut tells me I'm dealing with a person with an open mind who is willing to accept they are wrong if shown objective evidence which contradicts their preconceived notion. Based on your posts, you no longer fit the bill. Which is why I rescinded the offer. You had your chance and you refused. End of story.
---

The concept of audio transparency has been discussed by scientists since the very birth of audio and its use in advertising appears to have started with Edison. This ad is from 1918:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YD6jdT5mn...HJEdisonAd.jpg

The listening panel is testing to see if they can hear a difference between the opera singer, Anna Case, and the Edison phonograph system she is leaning against playing a recording of her singing.

A well known [but actually only run-of-the-mill] cassette tape manufacturer called Memorex similarly used the concept of audio gear transparency testing in this TV commercial c. 1979:

Since Ms. Fitzgerald is turned away from the test administrators and doesn't know which sound is being played at any given moment, she is effectively performing a "blind" test.

When listening to a recording vs. the original source, if we can't tell the difference we have achieved "audio transparency" or as Ella Fitzgerald puts it when asked, "Is it live . . . or if it is Memorex?", she replies: "Beats me!"

Audio transparency, as related to digital compression schemes at least, is defined here. It means "perceptually indistinguishable".

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post #204 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 12:59 PM
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Doing an ADC conversion and then my gear converting it to analog yet again is enough to void any sort of conclusion.
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post #205 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 01:21 PM
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Since the ADC conversion is also [hopefully] transparent, the conclusion [assuming you'd fail to hear a distinction as I was betting] is that all parts of the added processing are transparent.

A:

Digital song file >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Played DIRECTLY back through the listener's best gear.

versus

B:

Digital song file>

passed through a cheap (essentially free) USB cable>

played through my cheapo (but good) DAC so it is converted to analog sound>

passed through a $1 Monoprice analog stereo RCA cable>

fed back into an ADC, analog-to-digital-convertor, for re-digitization>

digitally re-recorded back into a digital file stored on my computer>

edited in software to precisely level match and synchronize the sound due to the latency error introduced by additional DAC and ADC stages of processing>

uploaded to the web (along with the original, non manipulated version of the song)>

both songs then downloaded by the listener to their computer >

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Played back through the listener's (same) best gear.



The question is:

Is the entire chain of extra events in signal path B audibly transparent? Or can the listener detect a subtle difference, any difference, whatsoever?

If they can detect any difference then one or more parts of the added devices in the B signal path is not transparent. My bet is no difference will be found.

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post #206 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 01:27 PM
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I added some steps to explain how the files get from me to the listener, i.e. downloads.
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post #207 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 01:45 PM
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Assuming the listener is incapable of hearing any difference, at all, this also lends strong support as evidence that cheap $1 Monoprice analog stereo RCA cables are also audibly "perfect", at least to that listener's ears, under these conditions.
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post #208 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 02:00 PM
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Transparence in audio is different for music genres, it's different for People's taste.

And you claim that your Dac is in fact 100% transparent in audio... All music

No one of us has that.

Not even highest end brands claim to have that....

We have more or less of it, not always of course related to pricetags....


That's why I think your bold when you say you ? Want to prove that your benchmark Dac is 100% transparent.


It's good that you think high of your hi-fi, but it's nice to bein touch with the earth also

Edison wasn't he a fraud??? That stole almost everything and made El power expensive.... Now his company is into Shady Debt collection of the poor in the same evil spirit.

My hero is Tesla, wonder why they called the car after him. He had visions about free el, free wireless technology, and maybe even ideas about free internet... Long before the time...
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post #209 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 02:06 PM
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Edison wasn't he a fraud???
Right up there with Franklin, Einstein and …….... Eli Whitney!



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #210 of 273 Old 06-18-2019, 02:06 PM
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Is anybody using a CCA with a DAC that displays the bit rate? I'm curious what rate you see when streaming Spotify Premium through the CCA optical. I think Spotify Premium max bit rate is 320 and the optical CCA connection is supposed to default to the highest Spotify bit rate available, but I'd really like to see what rate is seen by the DAC. I've been wondering about this for a while, and have posted the question a few times on AVS, but have never seen an answer.
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