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post #61 of 95 Old 06-17-2019, 08:37 PM
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post #62 of 95 Old 06-17-2019, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by brireeves629 View Post
So are you saying it’s all about the speakers?!? Blasphemy...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It is the complete system. The system is only as good as the weakest link in the system. Of cause the speaker is the most important as it define the sound of the system. The other components is to bring the best out of the speakers. This might sound easier than they really are. Particular if you have a pair of 4ohm 3 way speaker with sharp impedance change and dip down to 2ohm, the amp and the speaker cables become vitally important. In the equations, I showed how distortion of the speaker can affect the whole system unless the output impedance of the amp and the impedance of the speaker cable are ZERO. You never get that, so the lower the better. Output impedance of the amp is being spec as Damping Factor DF where DF = 8ohm/(output impedance). You want high damping factor for the amp.

BUT then if the resistance of the cable is high at high frequency all the high damping factor of the amp is destroyed by the speaker cable. It is deceiving to spec the DF at the output of the amp. It's the Damping Factor at the input of the speaker terminals that really matter. This is what I showed in the math linked.

If you have a speaker that is 8ohm and with very smooth impedance transition, then the damping factor of the amp and the speaker cable is not as important. That likely to be the reason some people claimed speaker cable doesn't matter. BUT if you have a difficult to drive speakers like my JM Lab, amp and speaker cable really matter. To me, for hard to drive speakers, the speaker cable is just as important as the amp.

Like I mentioned many times, I used to have a pair of Kef Uni-Q floor standing. Even it's a 3 way speaker, but it's 8 ohm and apparently the impedance is not very wild, I never even think about the speaker cables. If I still have the Kef, I would be one of those that say all reasonable amps are the same as long as it's not clipped, that a 12 gauge speaker is plenty good. Hell, in fact, I used smaller cables like 16gauges and was happy for like 6 years while I had the Kef. It's not until I got the JM Lab, then it's a completely different story.


It's not that simple and clean cut.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #63 of 95 Old 06-17-2019, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by RAART View Post
This is only 3 wires, I think they have some that the two sides ( Black and White) winded together, they uses more thinner wires and knitted it very tight.

I bet you anything That they know exactly what I said here. In fact, I think they are very quiet and just do it. I just rack out their theory. Hell, I am not into business, absolutely not interested. So I just explain out that it's very simple and very easy to DIY.

I am not that sophisticated, I don't knit like them, that's too hard to do by hand. I just cut all 6 pairs at equal length, put connector on one side, tide the end firm, then attach an electric drill on the other end and twist it. Then I put electrical tape in opposite direction to prevent the cable from unwinding. One hour to make a pair. $30 parts. I am happy with the result.

Attached are two pictures, it's very self explanatory. Build a pair yourself, you might hear the difference, you might not, your speaker might be easy to drive and this is over killed. $30 and one hour. Just buy the cheapest copper clad 16 gauge speaker cables from ebay.


If one want it to look nice, then one has to PAY. This is the cable that can be used https://marvac.com/products/carol-c2...foot-12c-16awg
At $5/ft, it would be $96 to make a pair of 8ft cable. I am too cheap for that. I just keep using my own built cheap cable.
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Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

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post #64 of 95 Old 06-17-2019, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
This is only 3 wires, I think they have some that the two sides ( Black and White) winded together, they uses more thinner wires and knitted it very tight.
This is not a speaker cable (at least I think...). It is interconnect like PBJ.

This was just to have general idea how they do it. I do have 2 sets of speaker Kimber Kable back home, but not in my current system. I think that I will stay with Mogami's for system's here.
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post #65 of 95 Old 06-17-2019, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I actually did calculation and posted here, if you read the first link in post# 59 below, I actually calculate the resistance(actually called impedance) due to the inductance at 20KHz, it is 0.22ohm for a 7ft wire. That is a lot of resistance at 20KHz. The resistance of the wire is really not important. ....
Read this, get back to me -

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...rspective.html

Quoting myself -

But longer runs come with a second problem I had never calculated before. Using the above analysis, I determined what frequencies would be effected by the Inductive Impedance of 50ft of very common 13ga/2.5mm² twin lead cable.

At 2.286% Inductive Impedance loss, the frequency was 3,614hz.

That is MUCH lower than I would have imagined.

At 10% Inductive Impedance loss, the frequency was 12,650hz.

Capacitive loses were still well outside the Audio Range. But, again, the Inductive losses were much more significant than I imagined.

Which results in a combined Resistive and Inductive loss of about 6% at 3,614hz and about 13% at 12,650hz. In terms of dB of loss, that's still not much, but I don't know anyone who really want to lose 14% of their signal.

And more quoting myself -

Seems pretty extreme, but when you convert Percent of Loss to Perceived Sound Loss (in other words, what you actually hear), it breaks down like this.

dB = 20 log(Vo/Vi)

2.86% Inductive loss at 3,614hz is -0.2009 dB; which is microscopic and insignificant.

10% inductive loss at 12,650hz is -0.91515 dB, which is larger but still insignificant.

However 50ft of 13ga (2.62mm²) wire has a Resistive loss of 0.10015 ohms, or 1.25%. That's not really enough to make a difference in the perceived sound.

2.86% + 1.25% = 4.11% or -0.365 dB; microscopic (3, 614hz)

10% + 1.25% = 11.25% = -1.037 dB; still way too small too matter. (12,650hz)

Except, I am simply not wiling to allow 10% of my signal to be lost and wasted. So, I will choose my wire and wire length accordingly.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #66 of 95 Old 06-17-2019, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
...

For example, using 6 of the 16gauge wires combine will literally reduce to inductance of the cable to about 1/5 of a 10 gauge wire of the same length!!!

...
Show us the Data to back up this claim?

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post #67 of 95 Old 06-17-2019, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I actually did calculation and posted here, if you read the first link in post# 59 below, I actually calculate the resistance(actually called impedance) due to the inductance at 20KHz, it is 0.22ohm for a 7ft wire. That is a lot of resistance at 20KHz. The resistance of the wire is really not important.
Document the source of your data.

What is the Inductance per linear foot of the wire? What is the Wire (brand and model)? What is the gauge of the wire? What is the wire length?

If the cable is not counter-spiral wound or woven, there is no Inductance reduction. As I said, from common multi-conductor wire, there is no reduction in Inductance because the wires all spiral in the same direction. In fact, given that the wire Spirals, the Inductance might be higher.

And only at very long length, as I have established in other post in this thread, does inductance matter, and Capacitance never matters relative to impedance of the wire.

Table 2: Speaker Cable Comparison
Cable ____________________Capacitance ___Inductance ___Resistance ________Gauge___
DIY Speaker Cable ....... 65.4 pF/ft ... 0.05 uH/ft .. 0.010 ohms/10ft .. 10 AWG
12AWG Zip Cord 1 ........ 8.0 pF/ft .... 0.19 uH/ft .. 0.016 ohms/10ft .. 12 AWG
Cardas Quadlink-Five C* . 19.0 pF/ft ... 0.16 uH/ft .. 0.018 ohms/10ft .. 12.5 AWG
Kimber Kable 4TC* ....... 44.2 pF/ft ... 0.09 uH/ft .. 0.023 ohms/10ft .. 13 AWG
Kimber Kable 8TC* ....... 100.1 pF/ft .. 0.04 uH/ft .. 0.011 ohms/10ft .. 9 AWG
Goertz MI 1* ............ 500.0 pF/ft .. 0.01 uH/ft .. 0.022 ohms/10ft .. 13 AWG

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Lo...peaker-Cables/

The Impedance of a Coil -

XL = 2(PI)(f)(L)

The Impedance of a Capacitor -

XC = 1 / (2(pi)(f)(C)

For 12ga wire with 0.19uH/Ft x 14ft (7 out, 7 back)

Resistance per 10ft = 0.016 ohms, for 14 feet = 0.224 ohms

At 20,000hz we have -

XL =2(PI)(20khz)(0.19uH/ft x 14ft) = 0.334 ohms

Combined impedance, (non-vector calculation) = 0.558 ohms

Converted to dB of signal loss - if we assume an 8 ohm speaker - the above is 7% signal loss

Ls = 20 Log(Vo/Vi) = 20 Log(93/100) = -0.63dB Signal Loss

Using a vector sum, the combined impedance is 0.402 ohms which results in a smaller percentage, which results in a lower dB Loss.

Either way a completely insignificant loss.

Now show me your ACTUAL Calculations.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; 06-19-2019 at 09:43 AM.
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post #68 of 95 Old 06-17-2019, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Document the source of your data. What it the inductance per linear foot of the wire. What is the Wire (brand and model)? What is the gauge or the wire?

If the cable is not counter-spiral wound or wovern, there is no Inductance reduction. As I said, from common multi-conductor wire, there is no reduction in Inductance because the wires all spiral in the same direction.

And only at very long length, as I have established in other post in this thread, does inductance matter, and Capacitance never matters relative to impedance of the wire.

Table 2: Speaker Cable Comparison

Cable Capacitance Inductance Resistance Gauge Cost (Pair) DIY Speaker Cable
12AWG Zip Cord
Cardas Quadlink-Five C*
Kimber Kable 4TC*
Kimber Kable 8TC*
Goertz MI 1* 65.4 pF/ft
18.0 pF/ft
19.0 pF/ft
44.2 pF/ft
100.1 pF/ft
500.0 pF/ft 0.05 uH/ft
0.19 uH/ft
0.16 uH/ft
0.09 uH/ft
0.04 uH/ft
0.01 uH/ft 0.010 ohms/10ft
0.016 ohms/10ft
0.018 ohms/10ft
0.023 ohms/10ft
0.011 ohms/10ft
0.022 ohms/10ft 10 AWG
12 AWG
12.5 AWG
13 AWG
9 AWG
13 AWG ~$1.75/ft
~$0.50/ft
~$500**
~$25/ft
~$44/ft
~$13/ft

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Lo...peaker-Cables/

Steve/bluewizard
I think I have seen this link before. I am glad I am not alone talking about inductance of the cable. Their's is fancier, mine is cheap and dirty.


I bet their cable is higher capacitance than mine, but if the amp can take the capacitance, it will sound better than mine.


I hope people will give the low inductance cable a try, I swear by it. As I said many times, I believe the cable is as important as the amp. Just you don't have to pay an arm or a leg for speaker cable. Hell, make your own!!! I bet if I take the 16 gauge speaker cable from ebay, and knit them together like in your link, it will be an improvement over what I have already. Maybe that will be my next project.




I really believe this is the key of good speaker cable, all the "audiophile" metal, solid core vs stranged core and oxygen free copper etal are just snake oil. You can make good speaker cable cheap. Even follow your link, it's not going to cost more than mine, just more work to make it. It will be a lot nicer looking than mine, mine is ugly, it just works.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

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post #69 of 95 Old 06-17-2019, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I think I have seen this link before. ....
Sorry the Table didn't format the way I thought it would. I corrected in but the Internet doesn't like White Space, so I reformatted it again. it should be readable now.

I did provide several relevant links as well.

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post #70 of 95 Old 06-17-2019, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Sorry the Table didn't format the way I thought it would. I corrected in but the Internet doesn't like White Space, so I reformatted it again. it should be readable now.

I did provide several relevant links as well.

Steve/bluewizard

Yes, the link got me thinking in improving my cables one more step and see how much the sound improves. Thanks

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #71 of 95 Old 06-18-2019, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Yes, the link got me thinking in improving my cables one more step and see how much the sound improves. Thanks
Do you mean this link? -

Low-Inductance DIY Hi-Fi Speaker Cables -


http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Lo...peaker-Cables/


Notice the intricacy with which he wound his cable. He made a pair wound in one direction, two wires each. But then he wound 2 of those pairs in the OPPOSITE Direction. The he wound those two pair together. They are COUNTER WOUND, so the Inductance cancels itself out.

Then at the ends that he broke out of the greater cable, it appears as if the did the same thing, 2 Gray wires wound in one direction, 2 other gray wires wound in the opposite direction to make up the 4 wires of the Negative (or positive) Leads.

The reason he when through all this trouble is because, a simple 4, 6, or 8 conductor cable all spiral in the same direction.

This was effective, the Inductance dropped from 0.19 for common 12ga down to 0.05 for his cable. But for common 12ga, the Capacitance was 18pf, but for his multi-strand cable, it jumped to 65pf. Inductance dropped by 73.7% but Capacitance increased by 363% (assuming my math is correct).

Multiple conductors does not on its own reduce Inductance. You can see that in the Kimber Kable too, very low Inductance, but very high Capacitance. However, the Kimber Kable are a very special weave of wire which accounts for the lower Inductance.

Steve/bluewizard
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I really never got into this detail, I am sure they do it much better than I do. At this point, you might get into this deeper than me already. My reasoning is very simple and rudimentary. I look at for example, each wire of a give length has inductance L, then if I parallel 6 of them, then the final inductance is (1/6)L. Same as if a resistor has resistance R, if you parallel 6 of them, the final resistance is (1/6)R.

I know the twisting of the + and - wires will further cancel the inductance and lower the inductance more. But I really never look into it in any depth. My assumption is when I twist all the wires together like I showed in the picture, I make the wires very close together and get better coupling and lower the inductance. That's about as far as I go at this point. I did compare the sound between my cable with the 12 gauge Monster and perform blind test, the improvement is very obvious. That's when I am happy and moved on. I really never intend to get into cable design. At this point, I think you are getting deeper than me already. Bottom line, lower inductance with present lower impedance at the speaker input and the non linear impedance of the speaker will not affect the signal as much as in the voltage divider formula shown.

When I have time, I'll look deeper into this. I have friends coming over to do blind test on my 4th amp this weekend, I am so busy getting the amps ready. I don't have time to really dig deep into this until at least next week. Designing amp is what I do, I just ran into speaker cable issue by accident when I was doing THD test on my amps, not that I started out investigating speaker cables.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Do you mean this link? -

Low-Inductance DIY Hi-Fi Speaker Cables -


http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Lo...peaker-Cables/


................

Steve/bluewizard
Yes, that's the link.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Yes, that's the link.
That's the link that got me thinking about this analysis of Speaker Wire.

Speaker Cable Debate in Perspective -

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...rspective.html

Though I started with the wrong premise for presentation. For my own curiosity, I wonder at what frequency the Impedance equaled half the resistance of the speaker (R/2). That's pretty huge loss. Later in the thread I used small percentages of signal loss for more realistic numbers. (R/10, R/35)

But generally Capacitance never matters, relative to Capacitive impedance. Now some amps don't like a lot of Capacitance in the load, but that is another matter.

Inductive impedance only mattered at very long length of 50ft or more, and even then the losses were pretty small, as I've shown, the losses at 3500hz was about 2.4% and the loss at 12.5khz was about 10%, but in dB terms that is still very small.

Again, at normal lengths of say 25ft or less, Inductance and Capacitance are of no consequence. So, the only things that matter are the quality of copper, and the DC Resistance of the Wire.

Here is everything you need to know about Speaker Wire -

1.) 14ga or 12ga
2.) minimum 99.9% Oxygen Free Copper (OFC)
3.) DONE.


Here are other Speaker Wire Analysis that I have done on this forum -

Perspective - Speaker Wire - How much is enough? -

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...re-length.html

FYI: % Signal Loss for Speaker Wire Length -

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...re-length.html

Help: Not how much SHOULD you pay; what DID you pay?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...d-you-pay.html


Which resulted in these two charts. The Survey was done in the USA and in the UK.

USA -




UK -



Just trying to lend perspective.

Steve/bluewizard

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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Do you mean this link? -

Low-Inductance DIY Hi-Fi Speaker Cables -


http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Lo...peaker-Cables/


Notice the intricacy with which he wound his cable. He made a pair wound in one direction, two wires each. But then he wound 2 of those pairs in the OPPOSITE Direction. The he wound those two pair together. They are COUNTER WOUND, so the Inductance cancels itself out.

Then at the ends that he broke out of the greater cable, it appears as if the did the same thing, 2 Gray wires wound in one direction, 2 other gray wires wound in the opposite direction to make up the 4 wires of the Negative (or positive) Leads.

The reason he when through all this trouble is because, a simple 4, 6, or 8 conductor cable all spiral in the same direction.

This was effective, the Inductance dropped from 0.19 for common 12ga down to 0.05 for his cable. But for common 12ga, the Capacitance was 18pf, but for his multi-strand cable, it jumped to 65pf. Inductance dropped by 73.7% but Capacitance increased by 363% (assuming my math is correct).

Multiple conductors does not on its own reduce Inductance. You can see that in the Kimber Kable too, very low Inductance, but very high Capacitance. However, the Kimber Kable are a very special weave of wire which accounts for the lower Inductance.

Steve/bluewizard
I was just looking at this DIY the other day and thinking about giving it a try in my spare time for my FL/FR. Based on your knowledge and experience, would you say this is not worth the effort to do for a 25-30' run? What about just using something like Belden 5000 series 10ga? Is that overkill? I'm using Mediabridge 12ga 2 Conductor wire currently.

Pre/Pro: Anthem AVR 60 | 5.2.4 Config: MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL X FL/FR, ESL C Center, Motion LX16 Surrounds, Motion 4i Atmos | Subs: Velodyne DD-15, Martin Logan Dynamo 1100x | Amplification: Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1 FL/C/FR, Emotiva A-700 Surrounds and Atmos

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Originally Posted by HarleyRider View Post
I was just looking at this DIY the other day and thinking about giving it a try in my spare time for my FL/FR.
Can be a fun project.


Quote:
Based on your knowledge and experience, would you say this is not worth the effort to do for a 25-30' run?
I'd say it's not worth the effort or expense. But... it could be an exhilarating experiment for your curiosity.

Quote:
What about just using something like Belden 5000 series 10ga? Is that overkill?
IMO... yup!


Quote:
I'm using Mediabridge 12ga 2 Conductor wire currently.
Perfectly fine for 99% of 25-30' runs for most anyone.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #77 of 95 Old 06-18-2019, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
That's the link that got me thinking about this analysis of Speaker Wire.

Speaker Cable Debate in Perspective -

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...rspective.html

Though I started with the wrong premise for presentation. For my own curiosity, I wonder at what frequency the Impedance equaled half the resistance of the speaker (R/2). That's pretty huge loss. Later in the thread I used small percentages of signal loss for more realistic numbers. (R/10, R/35)

But generally Capacitance never matters, relative to Capacitive impedance. Now some amps don't like a lot of Capacitance in the load, but that is another matter.

Inductive impedance only mattered at very long length of 50ft or more, and even then the losses were pretty small, as I've shown, the losses at 3500hz was about 2.4% and the loss at 12.5khz was about 10%, but in dB terms that is still very small.

Again, at normal lengths of say 25ft or less, Inductance and Capacitance are of no consequence. So, the only things that matter are the quality of copper, and the DC Resistance of the Wire.

Here is everything you need to know about Speaker Wire -

1.) 14ga or 12ga
2.) minimum 99.9% Oxygen Free Copper (OFC)
3.) DONE.


Here are other Speaker Wire Analysis that I have done on this forum -

Perspective - Speaker Wire - How much is enough? -

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...re-length.html

FYI: % Signal Loss for Speaker Wire Length -

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...re-length.html

Help: Not how much SHOULD you pay; what DID you pay?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...d-you-pay.html


Which resulted in these two charts. The Survey was done in the USA and in the UK.

USA -




UK -



Just trying to lend perspective.

Steve/bluewizard
I notice you edit a lot in the previous post. I did not have time to read through it again. But I think I know where you come from. If you look at the attachments in my links, you'll find our number do agree. The total % change of amplitude at the speaker input due to loss of the cable is still small with inductance effect. BUT I am not looking at the amplitude due to loss. I am looking at THD increase due to the effect.


I explained in post #672 in this thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...closed-23.html


The speaker impedance is NON linear depends on amplitude as it's an electro-mechanical device, this will reflect in non linear impedance even at the same frequency depends on the input amplitude. Unless the output impedance seen at the input terminal of the amp is ZERO, the voltage divider effect in the equation will produce harmonic distortion.


This is actually how I discovered the importance of the cable by accident. When I was doing THD test, I happened to buy a 4 ohm resistor that is not perfect and produce distortion. I notice THD increase a lot ( I mean from 0.005% to 0.01% just by moving like a few inches down the speaker cable from the output terminal of the amp). It was very drastic. That's when I start trying to lower the effect by changing the cable. Finally I change the resistor and solve the problem.


This means the cable with higher inductance will increase THD with non linear load. I don't even look at loss as it's not that critical.


After I make the cable on the bench to minimize the THD increase along the cable, I experimented putting the cable into the system and listen to the music, lone and behold, big improvement in the sound quality. I attached the voltage divide formula showing that unless the output impedance at the speaker input is ZERO, there will be increase of THD due to the non linear load of the speaker.
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Document the source of your data.

What is the Inductance per linear foot of the wire. What is the Wire (brand and model)? What is the gauge or the wire? What is the wire length?

If the cable is not counter-spiral wound or woven, there is no Inductance reduction. As I said, from common multi-conductor wire, there is no reduction in Inductance because the wires all spiral in the same direction. In fact, given that the wire Spirals, the Inductance might be higher.

And only at very long length, as I have established in other post in this thread, does inductance matter, and Capacitance never matters relative to impedance of the wire.

Table 2: Speaker Cable Comparison
Cable ____________________Capacitance ___Inductance ___Resistance ________Gauge___
DIY Speaker Cable ....... 65.4 pF/ft ... 0.05 uH/ft .. 0.010 ohms/10ft .. 10 AWG
12AWG Zip Cord 1 ........ 8.0 pF/ft .... 0.19 uH/ft .. 0.016 ohms/10ft .. 12 AWG
Cardas Quadlink-Five C* . 19.0 pF/ft ... 0.16 uH/ft .. 0.018 ohms/10ft .. 12.5 AWG
Kimber Kable 4TC* ....... 44.2 pF/ft ... 0.09 uH/ft .. 0.023 ohms/10ft .. 13 AWG
Kimber Kable 8TC* ....... 100.1 pF/ft .. 0.04 uH/ft .. 0.011 ohms/10ft .. 9 AWG
Goertz MI 1* ............ 500.0 pF/ft .. 0.01 uH/ft .. 0.022 ohms/10ft .. 13 AWG

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Lo...peaker-Cables/

The Impedance of a Coil -

XL = 2(PI)(f)(L)

The Impedance of a Capacitor -

XC = 1 / (2(pi)(f)(C)

For 12ga wire with 0.19uH/Ft x 14ft (7 out, 7 back)

Resistance per 10ft = 0.016 ohms, for 14 feet = 0.224 ohms

At 20,000hz we have -

XL =2(PI)(20khz)(0.19uH/ft x 14ft) = 0.334 ohms

Combined impedance, (non-vector calculation) = 0.558 ohms

Converted to dB of signal loss - if we assume an 8 ohm speaker - the above is 7% signal loss

Ls = 20 Log(Vo/Vi) = 20 Log(93/100) = -0.63dB Signal Loss

Using a vector sum, the combined impedance is 0.402 ohms which results in a smaller percentage, which results in a lower dB Loss.

Either way a completely insignificant loss.

Now show me your ACTUAL Calculations.

Steve/bluewizard
You added this since yesterday. We basically agree with the numbers, I am happy we go past this stage that the impedance due to inductance is much much larger than the resistance of the wire.


But as I said, we are talking about different effect, you talk about loss, I am talking about THD as that's all that matter. Signal loss in not the concern.


But with this small change, if the speaker load is non linear with amplitude even at the same frequency, THD % will go up. as we are talking about 0.01% area, not a few % of signal loss.


As I said, I discovered this from observing the THD increase from 0.005% to 0.1% along the cable. This will destroy the low THD of the amp. I believe that's the reason people said they cannot hear the difference as long as THD is under 0.1%. Because no matter how good the amp, a speaker cable will raise the THD and negate the goodness of the amp. With my ultra low THD amps, the speaker cable really make a difference.


Like I said, after I discovered this on the bench, I made the cable to see whether it really matter in the real system. IT DID, it's quite amazing. You should know I am very cheap, I don't even believe in those audiophile RCA cables as those are high impedance and usually resistive load. I make a big sting because of the result I heard.

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Can be a fun project.

I'd say it's not worth the effort or expense. But... it could be an exhilarating experiment for your curiosity.
Thanks! Sounds like you saved me both time and money. I think instead of buying speaker cable parts, I'll spend that money on some new LP's. And spend the time saved just sitting and listening to them.

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Thanks! Sounds like you saved me both time and money. I think instead of buying speaker cable parts, I'll spend that money on some new LP's. And spend the time saved just sitting and listening to them.
Glad to hopefully help.



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You added this since yesterday.
Actually I added in the same sitting. First the Table was terribly formated as can be seen in the first post you quoted. Then I cleaned that up and thought of a few more related things to say.


Quote:
But as I said, we are talking about different effect, you talk about loss, I am talking about THD as that's all that matter. Signal loss in not the concern.
How are you determining THD? Are you calculating or do you have some measurement tool, and if so - what tools?

I think you will still find that the result of inductance will be small to insignificant but I confess I have not made measurements in this area.

I think you will generally find all the things they use to sell expensive wire - long grain copper, Litz Wire, etc... - are all real things, but they simply don't matter at common wire lengths.

Steve/bluewizard
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.... Based on your knowledge and experience, would you say this is not worth the effort to do for a 25-30' run? .....
Sort of a Side Note: But can you explain why and where you need 25ft to 30ft of speaker wire in a single run?

Not a challenge, just curious.

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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Actually I added in the same sitting. First the Table was terribly formated as can be seen in the first post you quoted. Then I cleaned that up and thought of a few more related things to say.




How are you determining THD? Are you calculating or do you have some measurement tool, and if so - what tools?

I think you will still find that the result of inductance will be small to insignificant but I confess I have not made measurements in this area.

I think you will generally find all the things they use to sell expensive wire - long grain copper, Litz Wire, etc... - are all real things, but they simply don't matter at common wire lengths.

Steve/bluewizard
Yes, I have the QA401 for measuring THD, it is a must have tool for amplifier designs. You really cannot calculate or simulate THD, you have to measure it. the QA401 can measure THD down below 0.0005%( my best measurement, might be able to go lower). The SNR is about 150dB give and take. I have the whole lab at home.

As I said, I first found THD increase by a lot going down the cable, so I optimize it. Then I built the cable and listen to it. The result is very obvious. I had blind test with people on this.

I provide the formula, but I did not put is some real numbers as I use listen test to confirm already. One day if I don't have anything better to do, I might do that. Just make the impedance of the speaker lower by say 5% at high amplitude and put into the formula and see.

Also another important thing, Speaker is reactive, meaning if the driving source has finite output impedance, you will have phase shift at different frequency. Again run the voltage divider formula and go through the complex number calculation. This will change the sound. Only way to minimize phase shift is have as low output impedance as possible.

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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Sort of a Side Note: But can you explain why and where you need 25ft to 30ft of speaker wire in a single run?

Not a challenge, just curious.

Steve/bluewizard
Sure, I appreciate the question. I have all my components in the back of the room and only speakers and the projector screen up in front. Room is 11X21. So the 25ft runs are from the rear of the room to the front of the room, along the outer perimeter.

I'm actually glad you asked because it reminds me of another question I've been wanting to ask. OT for this thread, but I'll ask it here anyway. Would it be better to move just the amp to the front of the room (I can make space to do that) and run balanced cables from the processor up to the amp? Then go with as short of speaker cables as possible? Is there anything noticeable to be gained in sound quality by doing that?

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Originally Posted by HarleyRider View Post
So the 25ft runs are from the rear of the room to the front of the room, along the outer perimeter.
Would it be better to move just the amp to the front of the room (I can make space to do that) and run balanced cables from the processor up to the amp?
No for either question. Unless you have "audible" problems with the existing setup.


Quote:
Then go with as short of speaker cables as possible? Is there anything noticeable to be gained in sound quality by doing that?
In all probability, no.



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... Room is 11X21. So the 25ft runs are from the rear of the room to the front of the room, along the outer perimeter.
So, 25ft is the actual length of the cable? Generally 25ft is long but we within the limit of wire runs that could potentially cause a problem.

For 3% Signal Loss, there are the wire length for different wire and different speaker impedance. -



You can see common 14ga wire would work fine. Note the charts have been scaled to account for the wire run OUT and BACK. So, if it says 30ft, that a 30ft speaker wire pair, meaning 30ft of common speaker wire. In terms of linear wire, a 30ft pair is 60ft, but that has been allowed for in the graphs.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...re-length.html

Quote:
Would it be better to move just the amp to the front of the room (I can make space to do that) and run balanced cables from the processor up to the amp? Then go with as short of speaker cables as possible? Is there anything noticeable to be gained in sound quality by doing that?
It would be better to have the Amp at the Front of the Room, but for some people that is not possible or practical.

If you have a projector, the most likely problems is going to be running HDMI from the BluRay to the Projector, or AVR to the Projector depending on the equipment you have. But there are Baluns that convert common signals, in this case HDMI, to Cat5 cable and transmit it in Network LAN format for very long distances, then at the receiving end, convert it back to HDMI.

https://sewelldirect.com/hdlink-hdmi...-cat5-extender

You'll have to look up what the longest standard run of HDMI is. See how that fits in with your room.

While 25ft is long, it is not really excessive, so I don't think you will have a problem.

Steve/bluewizard

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No for either question. Unless you have "audible" problems with the existing setup.
Thanks again. Nope, no discernible audio problems. Sounds great to me. Just always wondering if there are any additional tweaks or config changes that can eek out that last bit of performance with the equipment I've got.

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Originally Posted by HarleyRider View Post
Thanks again. Nope, no discernible audio problems. Sounds great to me. Just always wondering if there are any additional tweaks or config changes that can eek out that last bit of performance with the equipment I've got.
Enjoy.
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So, 25ft is the actual length of the cable. Generally 25ft is long but we within the limit of wire runs that could potentially cause a problem.

For 3% Signal Loss, there are the wire length for different wire and different speaker impedance. -

You can see common 14ga wire would work fine. Note the charts have been scaled to account for the wire run OUT and BACK. So, if it says 30ft, that a 30ft speaker wire pair, meaning 30ft of common speaker wire. In terms of linear wire, a 30ft pair is 60ft, but that has been allowed for in the graphs.
Thanks for the info. I'm not sure I completely understanding your charts, but I'm using 12ga wire with 6-ohm speakers, which looks like that falls about 12' under the length limit for 2% loss. What % of signal loss do you consider audibly detectable?


Quote:
If you have a projector, the most likely problems is going to be running HDMI from the BluRay to the Projector, or AVR to the Projector depending on the equipment you have. But there are Baluns that convert common signals, in this case HDMI, to Cat5 cable and transmit it in Network LAN format for very long distances, then at the receiving end, convert it back to HDMI.
No problems here. Projector is mounted behind main seating position in the back 1/3 of the room, so HDMI run is <10 feet.

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What % of signal loss do you consider audibly detectable?
Under 1/2 mile.... None.



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