Tara Labs Space Time Speaker Cables... - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Tara Labs Space Time Speaker Cables...

So I bought a bunch of equipment about a month ago. I also received a box of speaker cables and interconnects. I didnt think much of them. I believe that quality cables makes a difference, but not a fan of high cost ones.

Don't get me wrong, Ive defended those that like high end cables. I think people who want to try stuff should. But I have never spent more than 100 bucks on a set of speaker cables or on a single interconnect.

Thumbing through the box of goodies last night, I saw the cables had a brand. I look closer and I see TARA LABs. I googled it, and theyre pretty high end stuff. Wow.

I am putting in connectors tonight and auditioning them this weekend. Pretty excited. I like trying stuff.

They look like this.

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post #2 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 01:11 PM
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post #3 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bing! View Post
So I bought a bunch of equipment about a month ago. I also received a box of speaker cables and interconnects. I didnt think much of them. I believe that quality cables makes a difference, but not a fan of high cost ones.



Don't get me wrong, Ive defended those that like high end cables. I think people who want to try stuff should. But I have never spent more than 100 bucks on a set of speaker cables or on a single interconnect.



Thumbing through the box of goodies last night, I saw the cables had a brand. I look closer and I see TARA LABs. I googled it, and theyre pretty high end stuff. Wow.



I am putting in connectors tonight and auditioning them this weekend. Pretty excited. I like trying stuff.



They look like this.





You could make some of those using Monoprice parts for ten bucks...

Oh, don’t forget to put them in the freezer overnight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #4 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by brireeves629 View Post
You could make some of those using Monoprice parts for ten bucks...

Oh, don’t forget to put them in the freezer overnight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I use Monoprice cables
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post #5 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bing! View Post
. I look closer and I see TARA LABs. I googled it, and theyre pretty high end stuff. Wow.
High End … expensive.... must be good.


Let us know after your "fair" evaluation.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #6 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
High End … expensive.... must be good.


Let us know after your "fair" evaluation.
Life, in general, expensive stuff IS usually good. If you havent learned that by now, I'll pass on the Naty light

What I am most excited about, is that I can do tests, and it didnt cost me
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post #7 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 02:31 PM
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super... let us know your unbiased evaluation.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #8 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 03:31 PM
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Is the Red and Black cable totally separate ( not together as a pair)?


From looking at the output shield, looks to be multi-wire inside each cable. That will lower the inductance. But if the Red and Black cables are not together, that will raise the inductance.


Next time when you go to Stockton, swing by to my place, bring the speaker cables.......bring your favorite amp over and we can do some listening. We'll see how my home built multi wires low inductance cables fair against your more expensive cables.
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post #9 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bing! View Post
Life, in general, expensive stuff IS usually good. If you havent learned that by now, I'll pass on the Naty light

What I am most excited about, is that I can do tests, and it didnt cost me

This is in general true. No guaranty expensive is good, but cheaper ones are most likely inferior. I know speakers is true from my experience. From looking at power amps, there is definitely a relation of price to quality. You just cannot design and build a good amp cheap. The parts alone of each of my amp is $900.....Just parts. That's a small amp of [email protected] ( hell, I don't even want to say it too loud that it's only [email protected]!!!). There is NO exotic "audiophile" capacitor, resistor, wires and connectors etc. Just buying from Digikey, Amazon and Ebay!!! It's just expansive.

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post #10 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
High End … expensive.... must be good.


Let us know after your "fair" evaluation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
super... let us know your unbiased evaluation.
You keep repeating yourself lol






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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
This is in general true. No guaranty expensive is good, but cheaper ones are most likely inferior. I know speakers is true from my experience. From looking at power amps, there is definitely a relation of price to quality. You just cannot design and build a good amp cheap. The parts alone of each of my amp is $900.....Just parts. That's a small amp of [email protected] ( hell, I don't even want to say it too loud that it's only [email protected]!!!). There is NO exotic "audiophile" capacitor, resistor, wires and connectors etc. Just buying from Digikey, Amazon and Ebay!!! It's just expansive.
I didnt get the PS Audio. But I am trying to pick up another Moscode 300 that Ive committed to for weeks. The owner hasnt been available. When I get that, I may bring it to Stockton, to drop off at Rainbow Electronics in Sacramento for a complete restoration. New caps and new MOSFETs. I heard replacing the Hitachi MOSFETs with new EXICONs does wonders for these old MOSFET amps.

When I get to doing that, I will drop you a line and try to pencil it in
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I got home. Hooked up the cables, and I am hesitant to say, but I really like it.

I will withhold a review until after the weekend, but I like it.

I like the cables.

Listening to the Allman Brothers at the Fillmore.
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post #13 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 09:33 PM
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Nice find!
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I just laid them out, figured out the polarities, and put the bare wire onto the posts.



The highs are burnished more. The staging changed, more in the middle (lined up with the speakers) than in the back (vinyl). Vocals are more throaty than chesty.

Pleasant. But I think I am hearing distortion on accoustic guitar solos by Fleetwood Mack on Rumours. The same on falsetto rips and solos. The bass is very controlled, but also less pronounced. Solid but lower.

The holography of the guitar solos by Fleetwood Mack is a strong point.

It's different, but after listening to it, not sure I like it better.
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post #15 of 95 Old 06-13-2019, 10:38 PM
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HI Bing,



You have not told me whether the Red and Black cables are completely separate individual cable or they are pair together.


Speaker cable is very important, unlike the preamp connection RCA type that you really don't need magic cable. I found a good amp needs good speaker cable or you won't get the sound. As I said already, I experimented a lot on speaker cables, doing THD measurements to design the cables.


Talk is cheap, I wish you can come over one day and we can compare cables and do some DBT or whatever. But the more I work on stuffs, the more I am convince listen for a few days is the best way to judge. When you are not trying to A/B compare listening to one particular solo, voice etc., just relax and enjoy the music, you'll pick out the one you like best easily, you can hear the difference that way. I agree with what you are doing, just listen over the weekend before making any judgement.

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Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #16 of 95 Old 06-14-2019, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bing! View Post
You keep repeating yourself lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by bing! View Post
I got home. Hooked up the cables, and I am hesitant to say, but I really like it.

I will withhold a review until after the weekend, but I like it.

I like the cables.

And... ~20 minutes later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bing! View Post


It's different, but after listening to it, not sure I like it better.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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Originally Posted by bing! View Post
I just laid them out, figured out the polarities, and put the bare wire onto the posts.



The highs are burnished more. The staging changed, more in the middle (lined up with the speakers) than in the back (vinyl). Vocals are more throaty than chesty.

Pleasant. But I think I am hearing distortion on accoustic guitar solos by Fleetwood Mack on Rumours. The same on falsetto rips and solos. The bass is very controlled, but also less pronounced. Solid but lower.

The holography of the guitar solos by Fleetwood Mack is a strong point.

It's different, but after listening to it, not sure I like it better.
I see you have Led Zeppelin IV.

I wonder if those Tara Labs cables would be able to bring out the 'holography' of Page's guitar.
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In the audiophile world, ignorance truly is bliss. Save your money.
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post #18 of 95 Old 06-14-2019, 08:05 AM
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You have not told me whether the Red and Black cables are completely separate individual cable or they are pair together..
Info from previous thread. Perhaps it is helpful.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...er-cables.html



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post #19 of 95 Old 06-14-2019, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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HI Bing,



You have not told me whether the Red and Black cables are completely separate individual cable or they are pair together.


Speaker cable is very important, unlike the preamp connection RCA type that you really don't need magic cable. I found a good amp needs good speaker cable or you won't get the sound. As I said already, I experimented a lot on speaker cables, doing THD measurements to design the cables.


Talk is cheap, I wish you can come over one day and we can compare cables and do some DBT or whatever. But the more I work on stuffs, the more I am convince listen for a few days is the best way to judge. When you are not trying to A/B compare listening to one particular solo, voice etc., just relax and enjoy the music, you'll pick out the one you like best easily, you can hear the difference that way. I agree with what you are doing, just listen over the weekend before making any judgement.
No the wires are together held by the white outer wrap.

This is my first hands-on experience with high dollar speaker cables. Actually, I've never done side by sides on cables. I just buy the best my budget allows and just roll with it.

I'll be doing more testing this weekend, but I was pleasantly surprised that there is a difference. I havent heard major differences, but differences akin to a navy blue shirt made by one company vs the navy blue of another. You can just tell there is a difference in hue, not necessarily one better than another.
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post #20 of 95 Old 06-14-2019, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bing! View Post
No the wires are together held by the white outer wrap.

This is my first hands-on experience with high dollar speaker cables. Actually, I've never done side by sides on cables. I just buy the best my budget allows and just roll with it.

I'll be doing more testing this weekend, but I was pleasantly surprised that there is a difference. I havent heard major differences, but differences akin to a navy blue shirt made by one company vs the navy blue of another. You can just tell there is a difference in hue, not necessarily one better than another.
I did more reading, It is a multi wire cable like what I've been talking about. It supposed to have 3 solid wires each with it's own insulation to make up the Red and 3 wires for the Black cable. They twist them together to lower the inductance just like what I describe. I use 5 to 6 wires each and twist them together in my cables. I don't believe solid core make any difference, but the insulation of each wire make the major difference.

3 wires literally lower the inductance to 1/3 of one single wire type. The more wires the better. I even tried using 20 gauge small wires and use like 12 pairs. Of cause it's better, but the capacitance is higher and there is law of diminish return. So I settled to 6 pairs.

For your Zu speakers, it might not make as much difference, for 4ohm speakers that are know to be hard to drive, that when these kind of cable shines. If you come over, I can give you a blind test between my 6 pairs cable vs 2 pairs of 12 gauge monster cable on my speakers. I did blind test with people and they notice the sound is more open, better sound stage.....all in all, the 2 pairs monster is just drier sounding.

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post #21 of 95 Old 06-14-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bing! View Post
No the wires are together held by the white outer wrap.

This is my first hands-on experience with high dollar speaker cables. Actually, I've never done side by sides on cables. I just buy the best my budget allows and just roll with it.

I'll be doing more testing this weekend, but I was pleasantly surprised that there is a difference. I havent heard major differences, but differences akin to a navy blue shirt made by one company vs the navy blue of another. You can just tell there is a difference in hue, not necessarily one better than another.

This has been my experience in the past ABing speaker cable. A level matched difference, yeah, but hell if I can pick a favorite. This is why when I put my Occos from back in the 90s in my system with the ESLs and heard a difference, but not a preference, I thought … nope, I'm not going down this path again.
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post #22 of 95 Old 06-14-2019, 12:46 PM
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This has been my experience in the past ABing speaker cable. A level matched difference, yeah, but hell if I can pick a favorite. This is why when I put my Occos from back in the 90s in my system with the ESLs and heard a difference, but not a preference, I thought … nope, I'm not going down this path again.
Maybe when you comparing good speaker cables, when I compare my home built 6 pairs twisted cable to a two pair Monster 12 gauge cable, my cable is distinctively better in every way. It is as big a difference as changing to a better amp. To me, speaker cables are just as important as the amp, they both have to be good. Speaker cables don't even have to be expensive, just have to be good.

I wonder people that gave the so called speaker cable chart like how many feet long, use what gauge, they actually have the good enough amp and speaker to test it before they publishes that. Speaker cables is so important in the sound.

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post #23 of 95 Old 06-14-2019, 01:00 PM
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Have a look at these Beauties!!!! How to make your OWN "High End" Cables!!!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1301573-have-look-these-beauties-how-make-your-own-high-end-cables.html



I've sure the TARA Speaker Cables are fine, but in the thread above, people made their own cable. The Original Poster made his out of common low cost MonoPrice CL2 cable, they turned out pretty nice.

What you have there isn't much different than this -

https://www.amazon.com/FidgetFidget-...dp/B07LCGVW92/

https://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-1...dp/B00N18VBSI/

Still ...nice cable... no problem with it.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #24 of 95 Old 06-14-2019, 10:23 PM
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I looked through the thread of making their own cable. Yes, it looks very nice, BUT, it's still a 12 gauge cable, I don't expect the performance is any better than the cheap Monster 12 gauge cable. The Tara Labs consists of 3 individual cables for each of the Red and Black side, they are insulated, it's actually 3 pairs of cables in parallel which reduce the inductance to 1/3. This is like 3 times better than any 12 gauge cable. I don't give a crap how nice the cable look, my cables look like crap, but they work.....and cheap.

I don't believe in single strang vs multi strangs, nor do I believe in audiophile metal for the cables, I don't believe in so called oxygen free or copper or whatever. I use copper clad...that is aluminum with copper coating cheap 16 gauge cables to build my own, did comparison and sounded better than two pairs of Monsters 12 gauge cable in parallel together.

At least the Tara Labs is 1/3 the inductance, my cables are 1/5 the inductance of any large gauge cable. This is science. I did measurement of THD along the length of the 12 gauge Monster cable, just 2ft away from the amp increase to something like 0.02% or worst ( I don't remember the exact number, but it's astonishing). That's the reason people say they cannot hear the difference if the amp is below 0.1% THD, the speaker cable gives more THD than the amp very quick.


THD should be measure AT THE SPEAKER INPUT, NOT AT THE OUTPUT OF THE AMP. To get the benefit of a low THD amp, you need cable with very low inductance to keep the THD low at the speaker input. That's where the speaker cable becomes very important. I already presented the theory and math many times here already.

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post #25 of 95 Old 06-14-2019, 10:44 PM
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the science for cables is knowing what they do...since 99% of cables dont say what they do, it results in debate. I own some cheap and expensive speaker cables...so what...what are the results? how do I test/measure? I have a 200 dollar single cable that connects my active desktop speakers....I also have the 10 cent cable the speakers shipped with...audioengine 2+ https://audioengineusa.com/shop/powe...ktop-speakers/


these 2 inch speaker along with sealed 12 in velodyne sub rock my office. crazy good, ofc at nearfield desktop listening distances...3 ft or less.


now if I told you they sound etter with my aftermarket high priced cable vs 10 cent cable they came with....who cares, really....




now if I take same expensive cable for my tower speaker system, they sound better....who cares....nobody has my room/space/system....even my chair/puter/mic...but I will agree its easy to hear differences....just nobody cares.

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post #26 of 95 Old 06-14-2019, 11:21 PM
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I don't think people really know speaker cables, that's the reason there are so much snake oil. Also, a lot of people don't have good enough system to really make speaker cables an issue.


My friend that did a lot of test with me brought over his speaker cables that he paid at least $100 for the pair, he admitted my home built cable sounded better.



Take all those so called "expert" in the audio world with a grain of salt, even designers, I've seen enough of those people, a lot of them are just hobbyist that build stuffs and not really understand. Of cause there are some that really understand but not willing to share. I am sure Kimber Kables know exactly why they make their multiwires speaker cables. It's the same theory as what I've been talking, I just break their code. They take it to another level using even more wires than me to knit them together even tighter to lower the inductance. Problem is the capacitance is too high like in 6000pF region. A lot of amps cannot use cable with that high capacitance and start to be unstable. This is well known problem. Those amps that are unstable with Kimber Kables will sound funny and people might blame on the cable. BUT with amps that can be stable, they will sound great.


I know, because my PA-7 is not stable even with my cables that have about 3000pF ( half of the Kimber), my friend said the base sounded funny with my cable.


A lot of well known amp designers don't even know how to stabilize their amps in the design. PA-7 was designed by the famous Nelson Pass that is the same as his famous Threshold Stasis. It started singing ( oscillating) with only 1500pF connected to the output of the amp!!! Service manual like in Marantz that actually have stability test that connect a big capacitor to the output of the amp by a cable to ensure it's stable. That is ABSOLUTELY LAUGHABLE. They have absolutely NO IDEA what they are doing. You don't test with capacitor connect through a cable. The inductance of the cable shields the effect of the capacitor. This same cable is really limiting the performance of the amp also.


Electronics has gone through quantum leaps, old timers that don't keep up with the modern knowledge are being left behind. The so called expert of the yesteryears are obsoleted. Sadly, those old timers in audiophile are still talking.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 06-14-2019 at 11:40 PM.
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post #27 of 95 Old 06-15-2019, 07:12 AM
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I just laid them out, figured out the polarities, and put the bare wire onto the posts.




Might sound a wee bit better if you take some cleaning wipes to them to get the guck and dirt off them. Yuck.

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post #28 of 95 Old 06-15-2019, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I don't think people really know speaker cables, that's the reason there are so much snake oil. Also, a lot of people don't have good enough system to really make speaker cables an issue.


My friend that did a lot of test with me brought over his speaker cables that he paid at least $100 for the pair, he admitted my home built cable sounded better.



Take all those so called "expert" in the audio world with a grain of salt, even designers, I've seen enough of those people, a lot of them are just hobbyist that build stuffs and not really understand. Of cause there are some that really understand but not willing to share. I am sure Kimber Kables know exactly why they make their multiwires speaker cables. It's the same theory as what I've been talking, I just break their code. They take it to another level using even more wires than me to knit them together even tighter to lower the inductance. Problem is the capacitance is too high like in 6000pF region. A lot of amps cannot use cable with that high capacitance and start to be unstable. This is well known problem. Those amps that are unstable with Kimber Kables will sound funny and people might blame on the cable. BUT with amps that can be stable, they will sound great.


I know, because my PA-7 is not stable even with my cables that have about 3000pF ( half of the Kimber), my friend said the base sounded funny with my cable.


A lot of well known amp designers don't even know how to stabilize their amps in the design. PA-7 was designed by the famous Nelson Pass that is the same as his famous Threshold Stasis. It started singing ( oscillating) with only 1500pF connected to the output of the amp!!! Service manual like in Marantz that actually have stability test that connect a big capacitor to the output of the amp by a cable to ensure it's stable. That is ABSOLUTELY LAUGHABLE. They have absolutely NO IDEA what they are doing. You don't test with capacitor connect through a cable. The inductance of the cable shields the effect of the capacitor. This same cable is really limiting the performance of the amp also.


Electronics has gone through quantum leaps, old timers that don't keep up with the modern knowledge are being left behind. The so called expert of the yesteryears are obsoleted. Sadly, those old timers in audiophile are still talking.

So is that what happened to me?
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post #29 of 95 Old 06-15-2019, 09:58 AM
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So is that what happened to me?
Not you, I am talking about those that designed electronics in audiophile and become famous back in the days and they still think they know electronics. Electronics becomes the major industry, new theory, knowledge, invention coming out every day. Even people that got high education 50 years ago are way out of date if they don't keep up. If they got famous in design audio stuff decades ago and not keeping up with the new world, they are obsoleted and what they think and consider correct might be way out of date.

The reason high end audiophile particular power amp is so behind is because there is NO MARKET and NO MONEY for it. Sure everyone have to have a stereo or surround sound, BUT how many are willing spend $1000 for a power amp and over $1000 for a pair of speakers? All the money in audio goes to the low end brands like Yamaha, Onkyo etal. How many a years you really think high end brands like Krell, Mark Levinson type can really sell? If the volume of sell is low, the production cost will be high, that make it even harder to sell. I bet these high end brands are mostly small business. People spend more effort on class D amps because it can be made much much cheaper and dominate the mid-fi market by making if good and affordable. But the true high end amps really never improved much, not that it cannot be improved, but who want to spend their time doing it as there is NO MONEY.

EE is the career of the modern days and the future, people earn $100K+ a year if they are just doing ok. Who wants to stuck in a small industry like high end audio where there is not much future and no money? All the designs of power amps has NOT improved since the new generation higher voltage faster power transistors became available in the late 80s.!!! When I was still working, I never even consider looking for jobs audio electronics even though I started my career designing guitar tube amps. It's not challenging and there is no jobs and no money. My career is so much more challenging than audio electronics. It's only after I retired, I am getting back into my roots, hell, it's better than playing crossword puzzle!!! I hope I can keep my mind active designing power amps.

Because all the above, I question people that are designing audio electronics particular power amps whether they really know what they are talking, whether they really have the knowledge, OR they just copy each other and do some improvement and call it their own. Like I said in the last post, you read some of the service manual with circuit descriptions, it's laughable.

Now, the preamp is a different story as there are a lot of new knowledge like DSP, streaming etc. But you have to watch out because those are all DIGITAL electronics. People that design digital electronics DON'T know analog and ground loop problem, that's when you get all sort of noise problem, interference. You read people complaining about noise and all that problems. These are easy to fix IF one know signal integrity design. I bet those old timers don't even know the term "Signal Integrity" because this became important only like 20 years ago and now they even have a special kind of EE called Signal Integrity engineer that specialized in fixing and designing circuits to reduce noise.

You want to bet, if there is money in the high end audiophile, a lot of new invention will be made in no time. You need money to attract talents. No money no talent!!! Like I said, who want to make a career in this field?






Back to speaker cables, if people have a $700 receive or a $500 power amp with $1000 speakers, I am sure speaker cables won't make much of a difference because the amp and speakers are just NOT good enough. BUT if they have a pair of high end speakers that are hard to drive.....like your Martin Logan and my JM Lab, the amp and speaker cable make a day and night difference. The speaker cable can make or break the system. It is my opinion that the speaker cable is just as important as the power amp for speakers that are hard to drive and have extreme swing of impedance. Hell, when I had my pair of Kef Uni-Q with my old SAE, I used small wires as speaker cables and I was happy. I would be in the camp that speaker cables are not important and all power amps sounds the same as long as it's not clipped. THEN I LEARNED.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 06-15-2019 at 10:05 AM.
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post #30 of 95 Old 06-15-2019, 10:08 AM
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super... let us know your unbiased evaluation.
What’s the point of you recycling the same old tired take?
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