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post #241 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
I put weight on unbiased evaluations, not biased ones.
Have you actually did any DBT or you just repeat what other people said? How many times you actually run the DBT testing?


How is it bias? I am not the one that judge, I listen to what other people said. Tell me what did I do that is biased? Please be specific.

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post #242 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:05 PM
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Actually I want to know those that keep talking about DBT, tell me whether you ever did a DBT, or just read from hearsay and call that science? Just a sincere question.

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post #243 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:14 PM
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Cognitive bias in reverse is very strong with AVS members. Going in they are conditioned to believe what they want to believe...
Lots of reading with little testing. There will be no test good enough to prove anything here. Our ears simply don’t matter, it’s all in the #s they will say... no matter how blatently obvious audio auditions/demonstrations are. It is what it is. “Look how much I saved because all amps for the most part sound the same” is the biggest influencer of them all. Jump on the bandwagon and it might even gain them some “likes”. Whoop-dee-doo.
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post #244 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Close. It was Lexicon: https://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-...ray-oppo-clone.


Simaudio Moon also appropriated the entire digital section of a $1200 Denon AVR (without permission) for a pre/pro they charged $18000 for. [https://www.audioholics.com/av-pream...cp-8-processor.] Tip of the iceberg.
Thanks Giegar..I confuse Krell and Lexicon all the time. I did not know about Simaudio. I truly believe that a lot of highend audio is a scam and fraud.
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post #245 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Actually I want to know those that keep talking about DBT, tell me whether you ever did a DBT, or just read from hearsay and call that science? Just a sincere question.
Progression of science is built on the work of others. No need to invent the wheel, it's been done. If for something to be accepted as fact depended on someone doing all the work, we would just be going in circles, never going forward. J Gordon Holt has been quoted many times on the forums here, and been ignored by the people who don't want to hear it each time.
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post #246 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Cognitive bias in reverse is very strong with AVS members. Going in they are conditioned to believe what they want to believe...
Lots of reading with little testing. There will be no test good enough to prove anything here. Our ears simply don’t matter, it’s all in the #s they will say... no matter how blatently obvious audio auditions/demonstrations are. It is what it is. “Look how much I saved because all amps for the most part sound the same” is the biggest influencer of them all. Jump on the bandwagon and it might even gain them some “likes”. Whoop-dee-doo.
And even less listening.
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post #247 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:25 PM
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And even less listening.
Correct!
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post #248 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:29 PM
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How is it bias? I am not the one that judge, I listen to what other people said. Tell me what did I do that is biased? Please be specific.
You didn't follow the correct protocol to completely remove bias.
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post #249 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:31 PM
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Correct!

See post 248
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post #250 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:46 PM
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Progression of science is built on the work of others. No need to invent the wheel, it's been done. If for something to be accepted as fact depended on someone doing all the work, we would just be going in circles, never going forward. J Gordon Holt has been quoted many times on the forums here, and been ignored by the people who don't want to hear it each time.
So you never did any test before, just "trust" those that fit your believes?

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post #251 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
You didn't follow the correct protocol to completely remove bias.

You have made 3 errors in your DBT test... it is imperfect and faulty!

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post #252 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:48 PM
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You didn't follow the correct protocol to completely remove bias.
I never said I did DBT, but it's as good. Like I said, you saw what I did, tell me what is not as good as DBT, be specific, don't just repeat what other people said, that's not science.


Or did you even read what I did before you comment?


Again, did you ever do DBT?

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post #253 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Cognitive bias in reverse is very strong with AVS members. Going in they are conditioned to believe what they want to believe...
Lots of reading with little testing. There will be no test good enough to prove anything here. Our ears simply don’t matter, it’s all in the #s they will say... no matter how blatently obvious audio auditions/demonstrations are. It is what it is. “Look how much I saved because all amps for the most part sound the same” is the biggest influencer of them all. Jump on the bandwagon and it might even gain them some “likes”. Whoop-dee-doo.
I was in there shoe before for the longest time, then I opened my eyes. And also, there might be sour grape factor in it. Notice I asked many times those that said all amps sound the same and high end stuffs are snake oil to list their equipment.


One thing that puzzle me, if they really feel that all amps sound the same, the high end stuffs are snake oil. Why are they even here talking about it? Why they posted thousands of posts? If I feel that way, I just get a Yamaha AVR and stay with my Kef and get on with more interesting things than to waste my time trying to tell them all amps sounds the same and high end stuffs are snake oil. Don't tell me those low end companies have budget so much money on marketing to pay people to talk here!!! Am I wearing a tin foil hat? I can't help it, THOUSANDS OF POSTS!!!! I have different interests and change every few years, audiophile is my current interest, like the ones I left behind, it will pass. I join different forums and once I got bored, I left, I sure don't care what their opinions. They have to pay me good to keep going and post my opinion!!!

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post #254 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 08:59 PM
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So you never did any test before, just "trust" those that fit your believes?
So, when building those amplifiers, do you design and fashion each capacitor, resistor, IC and board yourself? Do you wind the power supplies yourself? Do you build the case out of your own design with your own hands?

I wouldn't be surprised if there are thousands of speakers available out there, I'm not going listen to each one to discover which one I like best that day at that time. I bought some that are neutral, sensitive and are known to be solid speakers in their price range and I enjoy my music, several hours every week. Are there better speakers? I'm sure(shut up, Scott,) but I'm not going to torture myself over the minutia of amplifier differences, that's for sure.

And, no, I've never done dbt tests myself, nor do I plan to. And yes, I do believe Floyd Toole's research in general, because, you know, it was done by active scientists and engineers, and not a retired crank.

I'm one of those weirdos that actually spends his time LISTENING to his system, instead of constantly tweaking it.
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post #255 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:01 PM
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I was in there shoe before for the longest time, then I opened my eyes. And also, there might be sour grape factor in it. Notice I asked many times those that said all amps sound the same and high end stuffs are snake oil to list their equipment.
Yes, so you can bring your own biases into the equation by attacking other people's equipment. "It doesn't resolve well enough, you don't know what you are missing."

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post #256 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:04 PM
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So, when building those amplifiers, do you design and fashion each capacitor, resistor, IC and board yourself? Do you wind the power supplies yourself? Do you build the case out of your own design with your own hands?

I wouldn't be surprised if there are thousands of speakers available out there, I'm not going listen to each one to discover which one I like best that day at that time. I bought some that are neutral, sensitive and are known to be solid speakers in their price range and I enjoy my music, several hours every week. Are there better speakers? I'm sure(shut up, Scott,) but I'm not going to torture myself over the minutia of amplifier differences, that's for sure.

And, no, I've never done dbt tests myself, nor do I plan to. And yes, I do believe Floyd Toole's research in general, because, you know, it was done by active scientists and engineers, and not a retired crank.

I'm one of those weirdos that actually spends his time LISTENING to his system, instead of constantly tweaking it.
Don't know what you mean about "fashion. Of cause I buy the parts, but I still design the whole thing.


You mean the floyd toole that test the best of speakers with only one speaker? The floyd toole that when Consumer Reports gave speakers from Harmond bad rating, he went to Consumer Reports to "teach" them how to test speakers to get better rating? It's all in his video, in his own words.



And you just follow hear say blindly? BTW, what equipment do you have?

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post #257 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:06 PM
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[quote=drh3b;58255778]Yes, so you can bring your own biases into the equation by attacking other people's equipment. "It doesn't resolve well enough,


BTW, I know, I need to learn from you. Tell me what have you done in the audio world.

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post #258 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:07 PM
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I was in there shoe before for the longest time, then I opened my eyes. And also, there might be sour grape factor in it. Notice I asked many times those that said all amps sound the same and high end stuffs are snake oil to list their equipment.


One thing that puzzle me, if they really feel that all amps sound the same, the high end stuffs are snake oil. Why are they even here talking about it? Why they posted thousands of posts? If I feel that way, I just get a Yamaha AVR and stay with my Kef and get on with more interesting things than to waste my time trying to tell them all amps sounds the same and high end stuffs are snake oil. Don't tell me those low end companies have budget so much money on marketing to pay people to talk here!!! Am I wearing a tin foil hat? I can't help it, THOUSANDS OF POSTS!!!! I have different interests and change every few years, audiophile is my current interest, like the ones I left behind, it will pass. I join different forums and once I got bored, I left, I sure don't care what their opinions. They have to pay me good to keep going and post my opinion!!!
If you mean places like Sound United, they have hundreds of engineers, plus they own "high end" companies. If anything, the high end companies they bought recently will benefit from Denon's engineers so they don't have to reinvent the wheel to keep up with technology. Then they can dress it up with gold plated whatever to get that last inch of quality(or not) and sell it at obscene prices. Nothing wrong with that, of course. There is the famous case of Lexicon putting Oppo's multi player in a Lexicon case and charging several times more for it, I guess you get what you pay for!

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post #259 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:10 PM
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I never said I did DBT, but it's as good.
If you didn't take steps to remove the bias, it's not as good. That the human mind is susceptible to bias is a known fact. That's why the DBT is needed.
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post #260 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:14 PM
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[quote=alan0354;58255794]
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Yes, so you can bring your own biases into the equation by attacking other people's equipment. "It doesn't resolve well enough,


BTW, I know, I need to learn from you. Tell me what have you done in the audio world.
Why? It wouldn't matter if I was someone important in the audio world(I'm not, I'm just an end user), you wouldn't care, because as you have consistently shown, your mind is made up.
You denigrate Floyd Toole, so there is no reason to take you seriously.
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post #261 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:15 PM
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Don't know what you mean about "fashion. Of cause I buy the parts, but I still design the whole thing.


You mean the floyd toole that test the best of speakers with only one speaker? The floyd toole that when Consumer Reports gave speakers from Harmond bad rating, he went to Consumer Reports to "teach" them how to test speakers to get better rating? It's all in his video, in his own words.



And you just follow hear say blindly? BTW, what equipment do you have?
Figure it out. It's not hard.

"Fashion" in this case means "create".
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fashion
See 8

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post #262 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:18 PM
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[quote=drh3b;58255816]
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Why? It wouldn't matter if I was someone important in the audio world(I'm not, I'm just an end user), you wouldn't care, because as you have consistently shown, your mind is made up.
You denigrate Floyd Toole, so there is no reason to take you seriously.
Did I say anything wrong that he test the best of the best speakers by listening to one speaker? Did he said he went to Consumer Reports to "teach" them how to test speaker to get better rating on Harmond stuffs? He was very proud for that in his video.


I am surprised you have such strong opinion without ANY real experience in audio. You must be a genius.

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So, when building those amplifiers, do you design and fashion each capacitor, resistor, IC and board yourself? Do you wind the power supplies yourself? Do you build the case out of your own design with your own hands?

I wouldn't be surprised if there are thousands of speakers available out there, I'm not going listen to each one to discover which one I like best that day at that time. I bought some that are neutral, sensitive and are known to be solid speakers in their price range and I enjoy my music, several hours every week. Are there better speakers? I'm sure(shut up, Scott,) but I'm not going to torture myself over the minutia of amplifier differences, that's for sure.

And, no, I've never done dbt tests myself, nor do I plan to. And yes, I do believe Floyd Toole's research in general, because, you know, it was done by active scientists and engineers, and not a retired crank.

I'm one of those weirdos that actually spends his time LISTENING to his system, instead of constantly tweaking it.

Yes, I'm here.
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post #264 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:26 PM
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You're a different kind of crank as in you are a mixture of experience and opinion. Plus, you are somewhat open minded to the "other side", you've used REW for God's sake. I'll trust your experience to a certain extent, but double check your opinions. You at least have decades of music listening behind you.

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post #265 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:30 PM
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If you mean places like Sound United, they have hundreds of engineers, plus they own "high end" companies. If anything, the high end companies they bought recently will benefit from Denon's engineers so they don't have to reinvent the wheel to keep up with technology. Then they can dress it up with gold plated whatever to get that last inch of quality(or not) and sell it at obscene prices. Nothing wrong with that, of course. There is the famous case of Lexicon putting Oppo's multi player in a Lexicon case and charging several times more for it, I guess you get what you pay for!
Using the Lexicon/Oppo fiasco to discredit high end audio is simply not accurate. That was an anomaly that made Lexicon look awful. This happens in the audio world, but it is infrequent. No excuse for it and certainly not appropriate. To stereotype the entire industry on isolated blunders appears self serving.

I was an avid Lexicon fan (owned an MC12B at the time) and I didn’t get duped into their player. Buying high end doesn’t mean we should leave our brain at the front door. Often, but not always, you do get what you pay for. What often sounds extraordinary typically cost big $$$, and is built to last. McIntosh and Bryston amps come to mind. Are there ways to get excellent sound with a lesser budget? Of course! But a six figure + system will very likely sound far superior to a < 10k system purchased at BB (if in the same room).
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post #266 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:35 PM
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Using the Lexicon/Oppo fiasco to discredit high end audio is simply not accurate. That was an anomaly that made Lexicon look awful. This happens in the audio world, but it is infrequent. No excuse for it and certainly not appropriate. To stereotype the entire industry on isolated blunders appears self serving.

I was an avid Lexicon fan (owned an MC12B at the time) and I didn’t get duped into their player. Buying high end doesn’t mean we should leave our brain at the front door. Often, but not always, you do get what you pay for. What often sounds extraordinary typically cost big $$$, and is built to last. McIntosh and Bryston amps come to mind. Are there ways to get excellent sound with a lesser budget? Of course! But a six figure + system will very likely sound far superior to a < 10k system purchased at BB (if in the same room).
I don't disagree with anything you said, but the person I was replying to seems to consistently equate price with quality, and we all know that's not necessarily true. As I'm sure you know, OPPO was the base for many high end players, some, like PS Audio, are upfront about it.

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post #267 of 274 Old 07-03-2019, 09:38 PM
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I don't disagree with anything you said, but the person I was replying to seems to consistently equate price with quality, and we all know that's not necessarily true. As i'm sure you know, OPPO was the base for many high end players, some, like PS audio, are upfront about it.
Yes, at the time I bought the Oppo 103.
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post #268 of 274 Old 07-04-2019, 04:23 AM
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Everything potentially matters which may (or often times may not) alter, change or dare I say improve the sound. From my experience many can hear subtle to significant changes in sound, while others can barely hear significant changes/differences between entirely different designs of speakers. I was auditioning speakers with a friend once who was in the market to purchase. We heard 3 speakers in a row and he leaned over and said “do we like any of these”? Totally clueless and unable to ascertain the obvious differences. Many don’t even have the ability to put to memory what they have heard minutes before for comparison. Many have no ability to hear any differences between a $500 amp and a $12,000 amp. So what do they do... they perpetually challenge the ones that can hear a difference.

To think, this guy was not cognitively conditioned to vote with his wallet, and he still had an inherent inability to properly assess things. If he had wallet-itis or sour grape-itis then he would have said they all sound identical or the cheapest one sounds the best.

Last edited by G-Rex; 07-04-2019 at 04:33 AM.
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post #269 of 274 Old 07-04-2019, 04:37 AM
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thread cleanup
edit: going forward, please avoid disparaging other posters

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Last edited by markrubin; 07-04-2019 at 05:21 AM.
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post #270 of 274 Old 07-04-2019, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
Yes, so you can bring your own biases into the equation by attacking other people's equipment. "It doesn't resolve well enough, you don't know what you are missing."

Its a favourite tactic used in a feeble attempt to dismiss a poster. Its both judgemental and holds no validity. Changing a design and then comparing between the two different designs in a sighted test is not ABX as much as some posters believe it is. . I'm also under the impression that ABX testtng and designing amps are mutually exclusive and no way dependent on one another.
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AVR Yamaha RX-V 1800/1900/1500
TT/Cassette ProJect Xpression III/Yamaha KX1200/KX800
BR Yam. BD-S681/Sony X800/Pan. BD30 DPL Sam. 65"/ 55"/50"
Speakers PSB T-45,8C,1B/ PSB 500,200C,RBH A600/Alphas
Subs Rythmic LV12-R/PSB Subsonic 6/5
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