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post #121 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pjp View Post
You realize that you are basically saying he has too much experience to have a meaningful opinion. Most people who build stuff, test, design, redesign and test again don't do it based it based on "beliefs". It would get very old very quickly if nothing was ever better or worse. Some stuff works, some stuff doesn't work -- the way you find out is to dive deep into the trenches and experience everything -- not sit on the sidelines, experiencing nothing, and then preaching to those who are in the trenches.
Having "too much experience" is not the proper characterization of what I am describing here. The problem is that if you lack an appreciation for or knowledge of an important aspect of the subject at hand, you may be missing out on the larger picture and drawing faulty conclusions from the areas in which your experience has been restricted to. No matter how large that experience is within that specific area. Sometimes you can be just too close to it to see the larger picture.

I'm absolutely sure Alan can run laps for around me for days on end in many intellectual ways. But in my opinion, he has a serious Achilles Heel which calls into question some of what he thinks he's learned through experience.

If designing and tweaking over and over and over again, hyper-focused upon measurements and design changes without any correlative understanding or at least a general appreciation for the aspect of determining audibility of those changes, there can be a strong risk of drawing faulty conclusions. Many boutique component designers lack that kind of rigor too, particularly problematic given the stakes involved for them. i.e., financial, emotional and intellectual. They're too close to it to be impartial.

There is a reason why one of the cornerstones of science is falsification.

Science has lots and lots of brilliant people engaged in theory and experiment. Maybe we should just trust their great intellects and years of experience and have them skip the whole rigorous self-correction part too. What could ever go wrong?
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post #122 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 07:08 PM
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Pre/Pro: Anthem AVR 60 | 5.2.4 Config: MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL X FL/FR, ESL C Center, Motion LX16 Surrounds, Motion 4i Atmos | Subs: Velodyne DD-15, Martin Logan Dynamo 1100x | Amplification: Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1 FL/C/FR, Emotiva A-700 Surrounds and Atmos

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post #123 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
And you blindly trust him? You ever actually did experiment? I did!!! You don't get sound stage with one speaker. Even mid-fi speakers should sound correct, the difference is a good pair of speakers create the sound stage that the mid-fi won't.


That's the reason it's important to know what equipment one has to put it in perspective.
Yes, you did experiment. But the quality of your experiments are terrible!

Anyway, we're going in circles again so we'll agree to disagree on these points. Have a good night.

PS: I should probably back away from the computer anyhow, before this happens!

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post #124 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
Yes, you did experiment. But the quality of your experiments are terrible!

Anyway, we're going in circles again so we'll agree to disagree on these points. Have a good night.

PS: I should probably back away from the computer anyhow, before this happens!
Going in circles because you never answer my questions. Did you ever do DBT, actual experience? What equipment do you have.

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Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #125 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
Just understand that it will be exceedingly difficult to alter his mindset even by a little.
That is true of most. Rarely will one evaluate their own ideologies, biases, and presupposition with a critical, yet open mind to being wrong. The topic doesn't matter whether it be politics, science, topics of faith, philosophy, health sciences/medicine, etc. Lets not pretend there aren't differing opinions and ideologies on myriads of topics within the scientific communities either. If one cannot conceive they may be wrong (both parties in the discussion), then the conversation is rather futile and pointless. It will typically spiral into condescension or personal attack.
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post #126 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by fj6474 View Post
... If one does not decipher the difference their equipment may need to be changed.
You must be assuming that everyone is equally capable to hear differences if they have the right electronics?
Or, their ears need replacing along with a brain transplant?
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post #127 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Then its time for a DBT cable shootout and see if you can detect a difference when you don't know which is being used.
No, one must see with both eyes. How can you tell a difference if you cannot see?
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post #128 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
If designing and tweaking over and over and over again, hyper-focused upon measurements and design changes without any correlative understanding or at least a general appreciation for the aspect of determining audibility of those changes, there can be a strong risk of drawing faulty conclusions. Many boutique component designers lack that kind of rigor too, particularly problematic given the stakes involved for them. i.e., financial, emotional and intellectual. They're too close to it to be impartial.
Honestly, and I don't mean this in a critical way, but I really literally don't understand a word of almost your entire post. It's just gobbledegook that nothing anybody ever experiences can be valid. I've put together at least 100 sound systems and, although I have done my own blind tests, I could not possibly care less about your DBT methodology and I can't think of anything less relevant to a real-world audio system design. It is very, very easy to hear differences in systems you are intimate with and it is very common that my listening tests reveal conclusions that are the polar opposite of what my biases would dictate.

Third party DBT is listening to two variations of a foreign system -- that has nothing to do with the real world where you are testing on a system that you have listened to for months or years and are intimate with. Not only do I not need to blind test, I don't need to even go back. When I added new speakers, replacing 15-year-old speakers, I expected them to sound better, and I desperately wanted them to sound better, and they didn't. I don't need to hook up the old speakers to know the new ones aren't as good. If you say speakers are too easy, I had the exact same experience with a new amp (listening results were directly opposite to my biases, preferences, and presumptions of which would sound better).

Alan measures performance objectively (which normally you would demand, but somehow it isn't valid when he does it) and he listens. Every impression he forms is backed up by data. He has no basis for any bias -- he's not selling or buying anything, he couldn't care less if one capacitor is better than another, or one cable is better than another, or one connector type is better than another. There is no basis for bias when you are building something because you just don't care which approach or component sounds best, you're just trying to figure out what is best. You try everything, listen to everything, measure everything and you learn a lot in the process. Experience means everything. Spouting testing methodology without experiencing anything is just a massive waste of time to me (and to the forum because all of that DBT stuff has already been discussed a gazillion times without an ounce of meaningful content or information in any of those posts).
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post #129 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pjp View Post
Honestly, and I don't mean this in a critical way, but I really literally don't understand a word of almost your entire post. It's just gobbledegook that nothing anybody ever experiences can be valid. I've put together at least 100 sound systems and, although I have done my own blind tests, I could not possibly care less about your DBT methodology and I can't think of anything less relevant to a real-world audio system design. It is very, very easy to hear differences in systems you are intimate with and it is very common that my listening tests reveal conclusions that are the polar opposite of what my biases would dictate.

Third party DBT is listening to two variations of a foreign system -- that has nothing to do with the real world where you are testing on a system that you have listened to for months or years and are intimate with. Not only do I not need to blind test, I don't need to even go back. When I added new speakers, replacing 15-year-old speakers, I expected them to sound better, and I desperately wanted them to sound better, and they didn't. I don't need to hook up the old speakers to know the new ones aren't as good. If you say speakers are too easy, I had the exact same experience with a new amp (listening results were directly opposite to my biases, preferences, and presumptions of which would sound better).

Alan measures performance objectively (which normally you would demand, but somehow it isn't valid when he does it) and he listens. Every impression he forms is backed up by data. He has no basis for any bias -- he's not selling or buying anything, he couldn't care less if one capacitor is better than another, or one cable is better than another, or one connector type is better than another. There is no basis for bias when you are building something because you just don't care which approach or component sounds best, you're just trying to figure out what is best. You try everything, listen to everything, measure everything and you learn a lot in the process. Experience means everything. Spouting testing methodology without experiencing anything is just a massive waste of time to me (and to the forum because all of that DBT stuff has already been discussed a gazillion times without an ounce of meaningful content or information in any of those posts).
AND, even if I did a true DBT 100% accordingly, they will say you did not publish the finding, so it's not valid or say you make it up.



I read some of the article and videos linked to me here, you really have to be careful and read and watch through it. I found so many problems, like testing the best of the best speakers with a SINGLE speaker, testing the best of the best power amp(I am talking about really high end amps) with a $1995 pair of studio monitor.


The one that really takes the cake is for ABX on amp, they record the signal at the output of two amps, then play it back on ANOTHER system for people to compare the two amps. Can you imagine this? recording the output signal, the kicker is play it back on ANOTHER system to judge the amps!!! they call this is scientific.


Yes, I do spend the time to read. I sat through over an hour of the video that talk about testing with single speaker and went to teach Consumer Reports the right way to test speaker to get better rating.


Yes, we are not professional tester, I live with my system day in and day out, I can tell when it's different. AND I absolutely agree just because I design with something in mind, the result is more surprising than going as expected. Like I said I expect the 7 months of hard work will produce big improvement, theory said so.......BUT NOT!!! I'd be the first one to admit this.

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post #130 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 08:55 PM
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Honestly, and I don't mean this in a critical way, but I really literally don't understand a word of almost your entire post..

I understand what he's saying. It takes an understanding of perception biases I guess. Do you understand perception biases? Your confusion seems to be rooted in lack of familiarity with that topic.





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Alan measures performance objectively (which normally you would demand, but somehow it isn't valid when he does it) and he listens. Every impression he forms is backed up by data..

From your description, "as he listens" would be subjectively measuring, not objectively. When you use the word 'impression', you are most certainly talking in subjective terms. And there does not ever appear to be any data presented, so maybe you can tell us what that data is that back up his subjective impression.
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post #131 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 10:14 PM
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I understand what he's saying. It takes an understanding of perception biases I guess. Do you understand perception biases? Your confusion seems to be rooted in lack of familiarity with that topic.








From your description, "as he listens" would be subjectively measuring, not objectively. When you use the word 'impression', you are most certainly talking in subjective terms. And there does not ever appear to be any data presented, so maybe you can tell us what that data is that back up his subjective impression.
What data? I said many times I have a few friends listen without knowing which one is which and they tell me their opinion. You just refused to accept. Which part do you not understand my situation? I don't compare a Krell with Mark Levinson, I compare my amps I built, they all look the same, You cannot tell which one is which even if you stared at them.

Is this too much for you to comprehend? That there's no brand, you DON'T need to be double blind, as you cannot tell which amp is which even if you look at them. Do I need to explain in simpler term more?

If you "scientific" data means THD, flat band measurement, slew rate, I have ALL of these, is this scientific enough. You want me to show all the graphs? That's scientific. Can you understand the graphs? Bottom line, I don't think you understand any of it. You just make up your mind and everything else is just not good enough.


OK, let me show you the picture of my 3 amps ( now is 4 amps). Look at it with your scientific eyes, tell me whether you can tell which one is which. They look identical, I drill everything with a template!!!
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Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

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post #132 of 254 Old 07-05-2019, 10:37 PM
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Actually other than speakers that I don't know how to design and have to buy, I never push for spending big bucks on amps and others. In fact I did say Krell's KSA designs are very crude, only run in class A to cover up the imperfection, never comment on Mark Levinson as I don't have experience. The one that I always regard the highest is the Adcom GFA-565, they are NOT that expensive particular used, it's only about $1300/pair used. I judge by the circuit design and the physical looks of the inside. I believe strongly in speaker cables, I build my own for $30/pair. I am about breaking the secret of the high end stuffs, no intention of buying any of those other than the speakers.

I am more interested in identifying what is snake oil and what is real. Like in speaker cables, I found NO DIFFERENCE between using cheap copper clad wires instead of those expensive oxygen free copper wires, forget those exotic metals. I use connectors from Amazon and ebay!!!

For my amps, it's about $900 each just the parts, there is NO magical caps, everything is the cheapest I can find in reputable place like Digikey and Mouser. Chassis from China, cheapest power transformer I can find. Nothing is exotic. It just cost that much from engineering point of view. Connectors mainly from Amazon made in China.


As for CD player for testing, I use a used OPPO pre blu ray player. I bought two, $60 each including shipping. They sound absolutely sweet. I am so glad so many people just dump the old one out when the next generation comes out. I stand to benefit from that. OPPO is really really great sounding.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

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post #133 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 12:50 AM
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Again, how many that quote "science" actually did the testing in person. Also, what kind of equipment they have to put it into perspective.
Again, so what? It's amazing that an engineer who depends on the work of others to do his own work would say something like that. I don't need to have an apple fall on my head every day to know that gravity exists. You are basically saying you don't believe in science, even though your job is applied science.
Going by your own logic, knowing what equipment other people have is meaningless, as you haven't used it yourself. Your logic is not consistent.

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post #134 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 12:52 AM
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Going in circles because you never answer my questions. Did you ever do DBT, actual experience? What equipment do you have.
You don't ask good questions, that's the problem.

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post #135 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 01:23 AM
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You don't ask good questions, that's the problem.
You still have no answer whether you personally did any DBT. AND what equipment you have. Answer the questions first and we'll talk.

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post #136 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 01:29 AM
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You still have no answer whether you personally did any DBT. AND what equipment you have. Answer the questions first and we'll talk.
Actually, that's not true. I have answered the first question, and if you can't figure out my equipment, that's on you. And, I don't actually care if we converse. You make a big deal of being a retired engineer. Guess what, Floyd Toole is also a retired engineer. Hmm, decisions, decisions on which retired engineer to take seriously.

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post #137 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 01:34 AM
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Actually, that's not true. I have answered the first question, and if you can't figure out my equipment, that's on you. And, I don't actually care if we converse. You make a big deal of being a retired engineer. Guess what, Floyd Toole is also a retired engineer. Hmm, decisions, decisions on which retired engineer to take seriously.
So you NEVER did any testing, you just think you are right by reading? At least this is honest. I know you have high end equipment and did comparison and show they are snake oil. You have credit because you own all of them and there's no sour grapes.

Yeh, I'll trust the one that testing the best of the best speakers with one speaker more seriously. He is so good that when Consumer Reports gave harmon a bad rating, he manage to go there and "teach" them how to test to get better rating.

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Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

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post #138 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 01:51 AM
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So you NEVER did any testing, you just think you are right by reading? At least this is honest. I know you have high end equipment and did comparison and show they are snake oil. You have credit because you own all of them and there's no sour grapes.

Yeh, I'll trust the one that testing the best of the best speakers with one speaker more seriously. He is so good that when Consumer Reports gave harmon a bad rating, he manage to go there and "teach" them how to test to get better rating.
Same old "argument" you make over and over. He's also published books on the subject, how many have you published on the subject? You do know most of his research was done in Canada before he was hired by Harman, right? You have no credibility in this area, and he does. Designing a few amps doesn't make your opinions more important than someone who has spent decades studying this stuff. Harman used his research to design speakers, not the other way around as you imply.

Please explain how "sour grapes" has anything to do with anything. I like my system, and btw, no Harman equipment, so don't try to accuse me of being a Harman shill.
The difference between me and you is I don't claim to be an expert, and you do based on 3 amplifiers and flawed testing.
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post #139 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 02:10 AM
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Same old "argument" you make over and over. He's also published books on the subject, how many have you published on the subject? You do know most of his research was done in Canada before he was hired by Harman, right? You have no credibility in this area, and he does. Designing a few amps doesn't make your opinions more important than someone who has spent decades studying this stuff. Harman used his research to design speakers, not the other way around as you imply.

Please explain how "sour grapes" has anything to do with anything. I like my system, and btw, no Harman equipment, so don't try to accuse me of being a Harman shill.
The difference between me and you is I don't claim to be an expert, and you do based on 3 amplifiers and flawed testing.
Calm down, I know you are the expert, I only designed 4 amps, you have a lot better equipment, you won't be jealous. I don't want to talk about his credibility, I want to know your credibility.

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Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #140 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 02:22 AM
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Calm down, I know you are the expert, I only designed 4 amps, you have a lot better equipment, you won't be jealous. I don't want to talk about his credibility, I want to know your credibility.
Why?

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post #141 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
Why?
You talk like you are the expert, so people want to know. We want to put things into perspective.

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post #142 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
The cable plugged into your gear is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component (not the last), and is the most important. Local current and electromagnetic effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component.
None of this is going to matter. As far as I understand it, the AC voltage coming into an amplifier is fully rectified and turned into DC voltage used to run the amp. Then the output from the amp is output as AC voltage to the speakers. Any electromagnetic effects on the input line will be cleaned as part of the rectification process.

Also, the power cable is not the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. The cord plugs into a socket adapter and the first run is internal from the boards to that socket.

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post #143 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
You talk like you are the expert, so people want to know. We want to put things into perspective.
I'm not an expert, never claimed to be. Neither are you, even though you think your opinions are more important than other people's actual research.

My credibility on this subject is irrelevant, your credibility versus Floyd Toole is as you basically claim he's wrong. He's the expert not me, so trying to poke holes in my credibility is just a diversionary tactic by you.
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post #144 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 04:37 AM
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Both sids can bicker back and forth until the cows come home. If you are curious about the performance of high end ICs, speaker wire or PCs AND your system/room is worthy of it, just borrow some (with no monetary obligation) and audition in your own system. The camps couldn’t be more divided, though the believers are vastly outnumbered on this site. I know, this is a science site... blah blah blah... The science exists if you know/care where to look and who to speak with. Unfortunately it is just set aside to serve the majority’s cause here.

Remember, the strongest bias of all is “how much I will save” if you do not, under any circumstance, believe they can make a difference. But ... be warned very strong conditioning to believe it is all snake oil going in, plus believing you will not spend the $$ even if they show surprising results, is a very strong hurdle to overcome = cognitive bias in reverse.

It’s nice to see some old faces on this thread. All we need now is Gizmologist to join in.
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post #145 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
What data? I said many times I have a few friends listen without knowing which one is which and they tell me their opinion. You just refused to accept.

That is not providing data. That is making a claim. You won't even talk about perception bias much less describe how you've eliminated it from you 'data'. Using 'friends' in itself is a bad start to an objective test.


You've dug your heels in so deep that you won't allow yourself to ever agree that there is no basis for your claims. Your escalated commitment explains why, as many have advised, it is useless to have this discussion.

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post #146 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 05:15 AM
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Here is an extensive test from Pass Labs re various speaker wire. It’s a rather old article, and technology has improved, but it shows the “science” of how wire effects the synergy of a system. This is not a Pro snake oil article either, quite to the contrary.

https://www.passlabs.com/press/speak...e-or-snake-oil
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post #147 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
. The science exists if you know/care where to look and who to speak with. Unfortunately it is just set aside to serve the majority’s cause here.

A sweeping statement.... what science is being swept aside by whom? The proven science I see swept aside most is perception bias.


Quote:
Remember, the strongest bias of all is “how much I will save” if you do not, under any circumstance, believe they can make a difference. But ... be warned very strong conditioning to believe it is all snake oil going in, plus believing you will not spend the $$ even if they show surprising results, is a very strong hurdle to overcome = cognitive bias in reverse.

The strongest bias of all is 'how much will I save'? We had direct evidence of audiophiles spending huge sums in hopes of slight improvements. We seem to have plenty of people willing to spend more for better performance. So it comes down to demonstrating that performance with respect to cost. Its an easy hurdle to overcome if you have a basis for claims. With speakers, we have great measurements of performance, we have clear scientific and engineering basis that explains how they will perform, and even predicts accurately how they will perform based on the design.



Then we have claims of performance differences that nobody seems to be able to measure and have zero scientific basis, and where tested objectively has been shown to be bunk. Yes, there is bias toward challenging people who make unsubstantiable claims. That is a good bias to have.



If someone want to write off the fact that there is no science behind it and no objective evidence, fine. Please just say so. That is all we ask. If someone wants to make claims that have no basis, admit they are just that. But don't recommend products or purchase decisions based on those baseless claims and expect to go unchallenged. Or we might as well just believe anything we are told.
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post #148 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Here is an extensive test from Pass Labs re various speaker wire. It’s a rather old article, and technology has improved, but it shows the “science” of how wire effects the synergy of a system. This is not a Pro snake oil article either, quite to the contrary.

https://www.passlabs.com/press/speak...e-or-snake-oil

That article is about speaker cables. This thread is about power supply cables. I wonder if you knew that, so you generalized your statement to make is sound like it is applicable. Is the word "synergy" even used in that article?
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post #149 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
That article is about speaker cables. This thread is about power supply cables. I wonder if you knew that, so you generalized your statement to make is sound like it is applicable. Is the word "synergy" even used in that article?
The generalization has always been the same here. All high end wire is snake oil.
As far as synergy goes... I don’t have to paint a picture of the obvious. Beyond this, not playing the semantics game.
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post #150 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 05:59 AM
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The generalization has always been the same here. All high end wire is snake oil.
As far as synergy goes... I don’t have to paint a picture of the obvious. Beyond this, not playing the semantics game.

The 'generalization here" is based on science and engineering. Nobody denies speaker cables have capacitance and resistance characteristics, or that they can have some impact on the performance of the circuit. But since they make up such a tiny fraction of the characteristics of the entire circuit, and engineering shows us how tiny it is and how other factors dominate performace, there are solid arguments based on scientific fact that support the generalizations.


If those want to argue against known science and engineering, the burden is on them. Sorry, that's how it works. You can't just make claims that are baseless and get equal footing vs proven science. There are ways to validate claims, such as properly controlled and documented DBT, that are never provided. There are highly sensitive instruments that can measure audio differences well beyond human hearing, but those measurements are never provided. There are proven and well understood electrical design principles that clearly delineate the relationship between circuit elements and circuit performance. But those are never provided.



And as far as power cables are concerned, the science and engineering are quite clear. There is no basis to claim sound quality improvements. Science even explains why some think they hear differences.


You are free to believe what you like, just don't insist the baseless claims that defy known science have any merit without being able to provide the basis for those claims, and understand why it is important to challenge such claims. Its not much to ask.
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