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post #151 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
That is true of most. Rarely will one evaluate their own ideologies, biases, and presupposition with a critical, yet open mind to being wrong. The topic doesn't matter whether it be politics, science, topics of faith, philosophy, health sciences/medicine, etc. Lets not pretend there aren't differing opinions and ideologies on myriads of topics within the scientific communities either. If one cannot conceive they may be wrong (both parties in the discussion), then the conversation is rather futile and pointless. It will typically spiral into condescension or personal attack.
Yep. Same arguments as when I first read the infamous Stereo Review amp article of January 1987. Thirty years and counting. I read a study that said something like 80+% of people will never change their mind once established, regardless of any evidence, or lack thereof. The trouble is, if you discount the only valid experiments that are available, then you can never be convinced and there can never be a common base to come to an agreed upon conclusion. Therefore, the only exercise at that point is to influence the un-established. Kind of like the battle in politics for the vote of independents.

I suspect this debate will still go on for at least several more decades. Fortunately, being on the subjective side of the argument can only damage your discretionary finances and nothing more serious ... unless you're spending your rent money buying expensive power cords.
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post #152 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
I understand what he's saying. It takes an understanding of perception biases I guess. Do you understand perception biases? Your confusion seems to be rooted in lack of familiarity with that topic.
Again I am not saying this in anger or to be critical, but what on Earth makes any of you think that anybody can't immediately grasp the concept of perception bias? You would have to be an idiot to not understand it or recognize it. We get it. We got it a long time ago. We got it before we were preached to about it on AVS. We've experienced it first hand. The point is we don't care at all about it because all that theory about bias and DBT has nothing to do with designing and testing real life systems you are deeply intimate with. The entire concept of listening tests not being valid is totally debunked by the high frequency of listening results being the opposite of what biases would dictate.

The net sum of all that perception bias gobbledegook can be boiled down to five words: "listening tests are not perfect". That, for certain, is a fact. That said, listening is all we have beyond measurements -- and you have to be a totally isolated newbie with no "in the trenches" experience to believe that measurements of isolated components will dictate or predict the sound of an entire system working together.

For all of you to twist the absolutely true statement that "listening tests aren't perfect" into the unimpeachable conclusion that "no listening test can mean anything ever" is not rooted in logic or common sense. You have a blind, non-experience-based religion that "nothing you hear matters" and all components sound the same and it is blatantly false (which you would know first-hand if you actually hopped in the trenches and experimented instead criticizing those who are deep in the trenches experiencing everything first-hand).

Most evaluation methods in science are not perfect. Weather prediction is not perfect. It sucked in the 70's, it sucked less in the 80's, it sucked less in the 90's (... you get the picture) -- it is actually pretty good today, but there are still plenty of times when it is far from perfect -- and it will suck a lot less a decade from now. That's how science and engineering and innovation works -- you just move forward in imperfect circumstances and you learn and you make tremendous progress despite the imperfections. Your mindset makes all of you like deer in headlights -- you are paralyzed by your beliefs -- you would have nobody doing weather analysis because it's imperfect, and you would criticize anybody working on it because it is imperfect and will always be imperfect. Meanwhile they are out changing the world and you are sitting in an isolated perch from on high learning nothing and contributing nothing other than preaching stuff to an audience that already knows it (and probably knows it far better than you because they've done it first hand, not just read about it).

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but stop criticizing and start experimenting. When you do that, you will find very quickly that everything you hold as gospel is anything but gospel.

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post #153 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 08:19 AM
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As much as I "love" these threads, they do eventually become pointless and unproductive. Time to lock and close? Moderators? Anybody with me?
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post #154 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
As much as I "love" these threads, they do eventually become pointless and unproductive. Time to lock and close? Moderators? Anybody with me?
When discussions degrade into insults, then it is time to warn the offending posters, delete their posts, or, if that fails to resolve the issue and widespread chaos continues, lock the thread as an absolute last resort. This is an entirely civil discussion, there is nothing remotely unconstructive or unproductive about it, and it's just now getting to the heart of the matter. There is no reason to lock it and doing so would cut short an important discussion. The topic has drifted a bit (though it is still relevant (people should provide product suggestions rather than criticize the topic)), so it could be split into two threads if that was an issue, but locking the thread is not warranted (in my opinion) and would be a massive disservice to those who have invested time contributing to a very civil and constructive discussion.
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post #155 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
As much as I "love" these threads, they do eventually become pointless and unproductive. Time to lock and close? Moderators? Anybody with me?

I mean it’s watch this thread, or watch NBA Summer League. And currently one is much more interesting than the other
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #156 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 08:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
None of this is going to matter. As far as I understand it, the AC voltage coming into an amplifier is fully rectified and turned into DC voltage used to run the amp. Then the output from the amp is output as AC voltage to the speakers. Any electromagnetic effects on the input line will be cleaned as part of the rectification process.

Also, the power cable is not the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. The cord plugs into a socket adapter and the first run is internal from the boards to that socket.
Everything matters.
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post #157 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by pjp View Post
When discussions degrade into insults, then it is time to warn the offending posters, delete their posts, or, if that fails to resolve the issue and widespread chaos continues, lock the thread as an absolute last resort. This is an entirely civil discussion, there is nothing remotely unconstructive or unproductive about it, and it's just now getting to the heart of the matter. There is no reason to lock it and doing so would cut short an important discussion. The topic has drifted a bit (though it is still relevant (people should provide product suggestions rather than criticize the topic)), so it could be split into two threads if that was an issue, but locking the thread is not warranted (in my opinion) and would be a massive disservice to those who have invested time contributing to a very civil and constructive discussion.
My post was somewhat tongue in cheek, but that's O.K, I'm not trying to infringe on your freedom of speech.

But no, in my opinion, it is no longer productive or constructive, and has, as you pointed out, drifted. It really is just a back and forth between two sides that will never convince the other. Sure, it is arguably important, but this is now mimicking the already approx. 1,000,000 other similar threads that have gone the same direction. I need to train myself to just steer clear of these.... Carry on!
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post #158 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 09:18 AM
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Power cords made a HUGE difference in my setup. I didn't really notice it at first with just one subwoofer, but when I added two more subwoofers it became very apparent. I would be listening and turning it up louder and all of a sudden....silence. I couldn't understand why with all this equipment I couldn't hear a thing. I had to get a better power cord. More specifically a dedicated circuit and plug to power the two new subs. Man oh man did that make a difference!!! Now whatever I listen to and turn it up I can hear everything. No more silence. It is audio bliss.

TV: LG OLED 65B7A, Receiver: Marantz SR-6012, Blu-Ray Player: LG UBK90, Fronts: JBL S312, Center: JBL S-Center, Surrounds: JBL S38, Top: JBL S36 (4), Subwoofer: 2 PSA S3000i and one PSA XS-30se--- 5.3.4 setup
http://www.blu-ray.com/community/col...&action=hybrid
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post #159 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 09:39 AM
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That is not providing data. That is making a claim. You won't even talk about perception bias much less describe how you've eliminated it from you 'data'. Using 'friends' in itself is a bad start to an objective test.


You've dug your heels in so deep that you won't allow yourself to ever agree that there is no basis for your claims. Your escalated commitment explains why, as many have advised, it is useless to have this discussion.

See, that's the problem, your side use the argument, even people did the valid test, if they don't actually publish it, it's fake. That's a good way to invalidate any opposing opinions.


I take that you never done any testing, you just "trust" the "scientific" quotes that agree with you. You don't have anything of your own. I take that you don't have any high end equipment and you just trash them because you don't have it.

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post #160 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 10:01 AM
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If there was a poll on this site re high end wire experience, 99% would check off the box that said:
“I am one of the many vocal skeptics who have not auditioned, listened to, tested or compared high end wire to baseline wire, but I loudly preach that it makes no difference anyway in keeping with AVS scientific tradition”.

It really isn’t enough to be vocal and sit on the sidelines. Be vocal, but bring to the table your personal experiences on the topic. No excuse to test nothing and adamantly preach skepticism with such absolute certainty.
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post #161 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Be vocal, but bring to the table your personal experiences on the topic. No excuse to test nothing and adamantly preach skepticism with such absolute certainty.
I tried "audiophile" speaker cables, video cables (component and s-video), audio cables and banana plugs. All at the same time/"upgrade" over a two week period.
Didn't make a hint of improvement audibly or visually. Luckily.. I got a full refund and reinstalled cheap cables and speaker wires (bare wires).
I never auditioned audiophile "power cables" as I believe that if it were important for audible improvement the vendor would provide them as stock cables.


Who knows? Perhaps I don't have good listening skills or my equipment isn't good enough to take advantage of the products.
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post #162 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 11:00 AM
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My post was somewhat tongue in cheek, but that's O.K, I'm not trying to infringe on your freedom of speech.

But no, in my opinion, it is no longer productive or constructive, and has, as you pointed out, drifted. It really is just a back and forth between two sides that will never convince the other. Sure, it is arguably important, but this is now mimicking the already approx. 1,000,000 other similar threads that have gone the same direction. I need to train myself to just steer clear of these.... Carry on!

You have time this weekend, I still have my set up from last week's testing. Try different speaker cables and even amps. Want to do a blind test, all you have to do is turn away while I switch cables and you won't know which is which. You can bring yours and we'll listen.

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post #163 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
If there was a poll on this site re high end wire experience, 99% would check off the box that said:
“I am one of the many vocal skeptics who have not auditioned, listened to, tested or compared high end wire to baseline wire, but I loudly preach that it makes no difference anyway in keeping with AVS scientific tradition”.

It really isn’t enough to be vocal and sit on the sidelines. Be vocal, but bring to the table your personal experiences on the topic. No excuse to test nothing and adamantly preach skepticism with such absolute certainty.

And they talk as if they are reading out the same script also.

Look at how many times I asked whether they have real experience in testing and NOBODY answer. That's why I am starting to question whether those big companies are paying people to spread propaganda here. Hey don't think this is impossible, it's cheap for marketing budget.

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post #164 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 01:29 PM
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See, that's the problem, your side use the argument, even people did the valid test, if they don't actually publish it, it's fake. .

No, its not fake, it just serves no purpose above a claim, and holds no water against established science.


I don't have to do testing and publish if I am not making claims that contradict established science. It is faulty logic to point to others not doing testing as an excuse for you to not. It doesn't work that way. Does your claim become more or less credible if Joe Smith did a DBT? What if he didn't? How does that give your claim credibility?

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post #165 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 04:30 PM
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A... Guess what, Floyd Toole is also a retired engineer. Hmm, decisions, decisions on which retired engineer to take seriously.
Well, he is much more than an engineer though.
I would say a retired research scientist.
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post #166 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
That is not providing data. That is making a claim. You won't even talk about perception bias much less describe how you've eliminated it from you 'data'. Using 'friends' in itself is a bad start to an objective test.


...
Not a bad idea if it is really under DBt protocols and statistically significant outcome. I'd love to see their faces when they fail the test.
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post #167 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 04:45 PM
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...The strongest bias of all is 'how much will I save'? We had direct evidence of audiophiles spending huge sums in hopes of slight improvements. We seem to have plenty of people willing to spend more for better performance. So it comes down to demonstrating that performance with respect to cost. Its an easy hurdle to overcome if you have a basis for claims. ...
And an AVS member had a taste of that

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...able-test.html
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post #168 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 04:58 PM
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I did a single blind test (3 out of 4 testers knew what we were testing) but the 4th tester did not know, did not ask and did not care what we were testing

For the 4th tester, it was a double biind test. When our resident statistics guy, ran the numbers--all four testers returned statistically the same results. All three amps were level matched, they all ran within their operating range with four ohm speakers. Luckily, we had two pairs of the same speakers which really helped!

Once we were finished, the stats tabulated and we sat down with a cold one to ponder our findings. The first obvious question was did we somehow screw it up so bad that it made the results without winners? Did the room acoustics swamp any differences we would of heard....was it a room issue? Was the pre-amp a total POS? Blame the switch box? Actual switching of cables because of three amps slowed things down--time a factor? We then looked at the results of the CD player testing, no cable switching was involved like the amp testing and we had the same results. One guy brought up maybe we needed insanely expensive speakers to tell the difference between amplifiers. This was solved quickly, who would ever purchase speakers more expensive than we wre using--realistically that would not happen so it was dropped. We were testing equipment that we owned and planned on owning for many years.

Then the question with speaker cables, maybe some uber cable would sound better than the cables we were using? Well, if we could not tell the difference between 3 meters of 16 AWG zip, 12 AWG zip and whatever brand "audiophile" cable that was tested--most likely that would be a waste of time. After all, 16 AWG was the minimum we would use.

You would think that the owner of the most expensive amplifier (me) would of been butt hurt because my amp did not "win". No, I did not purchase the amplifier to have the "best sound", I purchased it because it had a ton of power output, ran very cool and I always liked power level meters (and still do) Oddly enough, the guy with the lowest cost amp also had the most expensive CD player so it was a mixed bag. The biggest difference between a bunch of 20 somethings doing testing and the audio jihad you guys prattle on about was we just wanted to know. We got our answer! A few hours later we were having a BBQ and enjoying the weather. Still friends, no hard feelings and we pressed on.

This was before the internet so had to go old school and actually test our gear. These days many audio people have done more testing with equipment far more expensive than what we used and would use more than four testers--they used dozens of testers in better acoustically treated rooms and so on. They returned the same results we did, this does point towards us doing it correctly VS really screwing it up--that stitistics guy was to be commended.

So if you want to find out, do it correctly. We lucked out in that we were able to adjust the gains even across all the amplifiers by using the gain knobs on the amps and use the volume knob on the tested receiver. One of the CD players had adjustable outputs to simplify level matching. Our goal was to mainly test CD players and amplifiers but we threw in speaker wire because--why not? The CD players were tested using the most expensive amplifier with te thick 12 AWG cables. We also tested speakers, that was very simple as it only takes a few seconds to really tell what we were dealing with. 3 out of 4 of use picked the same winners in order, the odd man out switched his 2nd and 3rd choice.

To get the most accurate readings, don't use your own equipment--try using speakers, amps, CD players or whatever you use that are not your own. If you own a pair of speakers that have a "tell" say the narrow dispersion of ESLs or narrow dispersion waveguides in some speakers and your MLP is very close--you can pick that out by moving your head and such. We did not have that option, all our speakers tested were wide dispersion so even if somebody tried to "cheat"... that would not have worked.

That was the first and last time I tested audio equipment blind--I have my results and my ears have not improved over time. The much, much more entertaining DBT is taste testing different alcohols--or foods and so on. A good idea before you ever do a DBT on audio gear is to test alcohols be it wine, vodka or your favorite hooch. This will show you quickly how accurate people's perceptions are, very easy to do with drinks and sure livens up the party. Be aware some people get all drama momma on you so best to use testers that have thicker skins. If you don't use alcohol, water is OK also...

I've done one blind test with three different pieces of equipment and it was fun but not my idea of how to blow a weekend. Been there, done that and pressed forward. The only testing I do now that would be considered blind is speaker testing when I help people pick out what they like. Oddly enough, the speaker I preferred was also the most accurate of the bunch so I tend to go with speakers that are accurate. No "warm, bright, cold or holographic" speakers for me--I prefer accurate speakers which is good to know! Since I knew the specifications on those amplifiers tested, I now know what specifications an amplifier needs to be and I go by those specs. Sure, my ears are not as good now as they were in my early 20's but it is a habit of pick X distortion or better and XXX S/N ratio or higher.

Generally speaking, I don't pick audio gear for people--not a specific brand or anything. I go for reliability, customer support, cool operation, electrical efficiency and so on if they want to know such things. When it comes to speakers, I offer a bit of advice and training about what speaker efficiency/sensitivity means, how to change watts to dB/W and why you would so such things and how to get a rough calculation of maximum SPL before you purchase things. I also give them a brief overview of speaker impedance, why it matters and to use the proper amplifier for the speaker desired. When it comes down to processors, features and all that--I will explain to them what things do and help them determine if they need it...I'll do that. I don't pick brands of AVRs, CD players, DACs, DVD players, speaker wire, interconnects and let them roll with whatever they want. The only guidance I tend to give has to do with how much power output they require for their room and SPL requirements, do searches on the wed to see if their choice has recalls or a lot of user problem be it failures or software glitches.

In reality, I'm not a specific brand fanboy of any audio company. Nobody is perfect and eventually they will all throw out a dud. It's just a goofy little hobby that the world at large does not care about. Heck, if all the high end audio companies vanished tomorrow I'd bet Kim Kardashians butt would still beat audo on the news reels. So relax, hobbies are supposed to be relaxing, educational and fun.
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post #169 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 05:09 PM
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So if you want to find out, do it correctly. We lucked out in that we were able to adjust the gains even across all the amplifiers by using the gain knobs on the amps and use the volume knob on the tested receiver. One of the CD players had adjustable outputs to simplify level matching. Our goal was to mainly test CD players and amplifiers but we threw in speaker wire because--why not? The CD players were tested using the most expensive amplifier with te thick 12 AWG cables. We also tested speakers, that was very simple as it only takes a few seconds to really tell what we were dealing with. 3 out of 4 of use picked the same winners in order, the odd man out switched his 2nd and 3rd choice.

Cool.


I've done my own blind testing occasionally over the years. Back in the late 90's I had two CD players and a high end DAC that struck me as sounding distinctly different. To double check I did some blind testing with the help of a friend, switching (randomly decided by coin tosses etc, me not knowing the identity of the players). I used a voltmeter to ensure voltage match between all 3 at the speaker terminals.


Results were that I easily identified all 3 - not just differences, but which one I was listening to. I repeated the results in another blind test. In fact, I even identified the players from outside the room with my friend switching!


On the other hand, blind test results for some high end AC cables I had on loan came up negative: thought I heard a difference sighted, completely vanished once I didn't know whether I was listening to the expensive cable or a stock cable.


I've done a few other blind tests on other things.


Sometimes it's sort of fun, especially when I'm really motivated. Other times more hassle than I want to bother with.
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post #170 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 05:50 PM
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Not a bad idea if it is really under DBt protocols and statistically significant outcome. I'd love to see their faces when they fail the test.

You, of cause, would really get off on that, wouldn't you? Nothing like having an agenda.

I have offered a number of times to conduct such a test right here, but no volunteers, and I know there are AVSers in the C-Bus area. Offer still stands. I would of course use the existing system downstairs so I keep everything the same except the device I'm testing. Trying to cure the digital issue I've been bitchin about since I started with Tidal and using the DRF, I did hear a difference with the chit Modi 3 DAC and it mostly cured my complaint. However, I can only hear the difference with the ESLs and not even on the ribbon Magnepans, which is great because that saves me money.

I did notice the other day while at a car hangout when I took grandkids that my grandson was complaining about the crackle coming from some real serious high tension power lines above the parking lot. We have a commercial building a few miles west of there under the same power lines and I know that use to drive me nuts 10 years or so, but not anymore. So I guess now it's my time to start losing my hearing. So if anyone wants me to try it, better get crackin as I'm 76 now. Time isn't kind.

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post #171 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
You, of cause, would really get off on that, wouldn't you? Nothing like having an agenda.

I have offered a number of times to conduct such a test right here, but no volunteers, and I know there are AVSers in the C-Bus area. Offer still stands. I would of course use the existing system downstairs so I keep everything the same except the device I'm testing. Trying to cure the digital issue I've been bitchin about since I started with Tidal and using the DRF, I did hear a difference with the chit Modi 3 DAC and it mostly cured my complaint. However, I can only hear the difference with the ESLs and not even on the ribbon Magnepans, which is great because that saves me money.

I did notice the other day while at a car hangout when I took grandkids that my grandson was complaining about the crackle coming from some real serious high tension power lines above the parking lot. We have a commercial building a few miles west of there under the same power lines and I know that use to drive me nuts 10 years or so, but not anymore. So I guess now it's my time to start losing my hearing. So if anyone wants me to try it, better get crackin as I'm 76 now. Time isn't kind.
You are not floyd toole, you don't count. You can do whatever, they will say you are a fake. You can follow the exact DBT protocode, but you have no proof, so you are fake.


You wonder how much they get paid to come here? Think about it, those low-fi like Yamaha has big budget to do marketing, what is a few dollars to pay people to come here to spread propaganda? Think about this, I don't think I am wearing tin foil hat.


Notice they all talk according to a script?

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post #172 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 06:45 PM
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Remember, testing the best of the best speakers by one speaker. Bad review by Consumer Reports, they send and "expert" to "teach" them how to test speaker to get better review. In ABX test of amplifiers by recording the output and play it back on ANOTHER system to judge the amps.


Seriously, stop and think about this. This is their so called "scientific" proof.


The kicker is even if you do the same thing and post the result, They will say you are faking it, you have no proof.


Lastly, look at the number of post to the number of "Likes" of those that read off the script, a lot of them have from 90% to 60% of their post to likes. Look at yours, you'd be lucky to get like 20%. Do you find this fishy? Or am I wearing tin foil hat?

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post #173 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
You are not floyd toole, you don't count. You can do whatever, they will say you are a fake. You can follow the exact DBT protocode, but you have no proof, so you are fake.

You wonder how much they get paid to come here? Think about it, those low-fi like Yamaha has big budget to do marketing, what is a few dollars to pay people to come here to spread propaganda? Think about this, I don't think I am wearing tin foil hat.

Notice they all talk according to a script?

As I did in my preceding post, I've offered and I'm actually interested in the results. I have a much more difficult time making money here versus SoCal so every dollar spent on audio has got to have justification. No more just throwing money at the hobby as I did for 60 years. I also want to know if I can actually discern a difference and which of the two objects actually improve the sound. If I can't tell, I'm not a buyer.
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post #174 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Again, how many that quote "science" actually did the testing in person. Also, what kind of equipment they have to put it into perspective.
I'm confused . I shouldn't believe the work of Toole, Olive et. al , but I should believe your findings , having not tested either body of research in person myself?

Science says I can't breathe in space , I'm pretty sure just about everyone will agree with that , but I don't think I'm going to build a back yard rocket to test to your standards for myself .

Turn that $*!# UP!! --Beethoven
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post #175 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Both sids can bicker back and forth until the cows come home. If you are curious about the performance of high end ICs, speaker wire or PCs AND your system/room is worthy of it, just borrow some (with no monetary obligation) and audition in your own system. The camps couldn’t be more divided, though the believers are vastly outnumbered on this site. I know, this is a science site... blah blah blah... The science exists if you know/care where to look and who to speak with. Unfortunately it is just set aside to serve the majority’s cause here.

Remember, the strongest bias of all is “how much I will save” if you do not, under any circumstance, believe they can make a difference. But ... be warned very strong conditioning to believe it is all snake oil going in, plus believing you will not spend the $$ even if they show surprising results, is a very strong hurdle to overcome = cognitive bias in reverse.

It’s nice to see some old faces on this thread. All we need now is Gizmologist to join in.
Sorry man, but those same people that think you should test it and let your ears decide are the same people that (think they) hear an improvement in sound when changing the ethernet cable on their router to an "audio grade" ethernet cable. The local shop also believes in cables. It all stems from the days when your analog and speaker cables actually mattered. Power cable, ethernet cable, USB cable. These arent making a difference in quality of sound.

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post #176 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
The generalization has always been the same here. All high end wire is snake oil.
As far as synergy goes... I don’t have to paint a picture of the obvious. Beyond this, not playing the semantics game.
Its unlikely that high end speaker cable in the $1000-$10000 range improves sound over some "decent" speaker cable. But at least that's not impossible. The power cable is.

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post #177 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
As much as I "love" these threads, they do eventually become pointless and unproductive. Time to lock and close? Moderators? Anybody with me?
If you dont like the thread, you dont have to open it. There are hundreds of thread on this site that I don't open if they dont interest me. I don't go into each and ask for a mod to close them.
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post #178 of 254 Old 07-06-2019, 11:46 PM
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Alright,.so after countless useless posts bickering about nothing. Anyone recommend a decent good quality surge protector? One that is well built w/o paying a random?

No, I refuse to use the $5 Walmart special.

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post #179 of 254 Old 07-07-2019, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Sorry man, but those same people that think you should test it and let your ears decide are the same people that (think they) hear an improvement in sound when changing the ethernet cable on their router to an "audio grade" ethernet cable. The local shop also believes in cables. It all stems from the days when your analog and speaker cables actually mattered. Power cable, ethernet cable, USB cable. These arent making a difference in quality of sound.
Not true that everyone that let the ears decide are like this, I for one look at it in engineering point of view. I consider speaker cables very important. I don't consider the RCA cable that important as it doesn't carry high current and power. I bought all RCA cables from Amazon, not the cheapest ones, but at least with thicker cables. I don't believe power cord make any difference.

Ethenet, USB, HDMI etal cables are digital RF cables, as long as data don't drop out ( sound breaking up or screen freezes), it's all good.

I don't believe all amps sound the same, not all amps can drive all speakers, if the speakers is low impedance and know to be hard to drive, amp and speaker cables become very important.

I believe in testing and experiment myself to get first hand experience, I don't believe in just reading other's opinions because like even scientific articles, it's very political. So I question everything instead of repeating hear say. I spent over 3 years designing amps, build and test them, I build my own speaker cables, other than speakers that I am willing to spend money, I don't spend that much money in everything else. To me, it's about breaking the secret of audiophile.
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post #180 of 254 Old 07-07-2019, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Dude, I'm running $15k in speakers and $6k in subs through a $3k AVR with plenty of supporting gear like miniDSP etc. - if I thought magic power cords made a difference, I would have no problem putting them in my system. I've just never seen credible proof that they actually do anything besides look pretty.
Some people would also say, all the crap you just listed does not make a difference either.......................... On AVS it never seems to end!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is my point. Now if someone did want to spend a few hundred on a power cord, or even a power conditioner.......... Why is so important for people like you, with 80000 dollars less in equipment than I have.................. To constantly tell others, its not important to them.

You should have yourself some cheap behringer products in your system, as you will find a whole slew of people who will run around AVS forum, yelling double blind test says, all the extra money for quality name brand is a waste of time also.

Now the OP is looking for others with his interests, in a subject to get an opinion, and for the most part all he has got is a slew of people telling the op, to go fly a kite, as what he likes is a waste of time. As usual, none of this helps the OP.

Personally I like the way a lot of those upscale power cords look, and for those with cash in their pockets who want to spend money because they got nothing else they would like to buy at the moment. Why not.? It would not be the first time audio buyers paid extra for stuff like extra thick aluminum face plates, Or for the 10 coats of painstaking labor on their 15000.00 speakers. A lot of times, all these extras, which make no difference in the sound, are the real cost of the product. (at least , no difference to some people.
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https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=459.60
A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.

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