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post #361 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:03 PM
 
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I assume my previous post answers your question,. If not let me know.
It's answered..
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post #362 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
. I usually use free ones.
That's been my experience with Firewire, USB, Cat5 or 6, RCA, S-video. optical, coax, etc.


Unless there was a "problem", nothing was upgraded solely for an "audible improvement". Even new PC's and routers over the years hasn't "improved" audio quality.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #363 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:09 PM
 
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That's been my experience with Firewire, USB, Cat5 or 6, RCA, S-video. optical, coax, etc.


Unless there was a "problem", nothing was upgraded solely for an "audible improvement". Even new PC's and routers over the years hasn't "improved" audio quality.
???? Are you kidding me??

MP3 Napster Stationary and iPod and Audio and streaming and computers today?

You're joking right?
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post #364 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:13 PM
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No.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #365 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:14 PM
 
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My condolences
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post #366 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:18 PM
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I just don't understand why you get so upset with entry level specced cables?
My target audience is the fence sitters. I can back nearly everything I say with science links, rather than advertisements, but as James Randi says "One can't prove a negative" . I can't prove conclusively that nobody can hear a difference in music playing through different USB cables [previously stated caveats omitted for brevity] because there are billions of people, and lots of cables, and it would take too long to test them all, but smart fence sitters will realize that my point that there isn't a single example of a published double blind test showing a difference is rather telling.

For my side to win we have the impossible task of testing everyone, on every USB cable comparison.

For my opponents' side to win they only have to show a single example of a single person who can tell a difference under properly controlled conditions, using whatever gear, music, and ground intact USB cables they want.

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post #367 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:21 PM
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For what?
As I stated earlier... my audio, digital and analog, is just fine in my home with VERY inexpensive cables.


My condolences to those that get caught up in marketing hype and want to believe that a well constructed free cable and a $20 cable makes an audible improvement.


If it works for you... great! Enjoy!



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #368 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:21 PM
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If USB cables sound different then wouldn't that mean USB hubs sound different too? Are there "audiophile" USB hubs?

How about the hard drives? Don't they have lots of jitter? [mine vibrate noticeably when at full speed] Do they make "audiophile" ones of those too?
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post #369 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If USB cables sound different wouldn't that mean USB hubs sound different too? Are there "audiophile" USB hubs?



How about the hard drives? Don't they have lots of jitter? Do they make "audiophile" ones of those too?
Yes they do.. I don't have them..
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post #370 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:24 PM
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Links?
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post #371 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:26 PM
 
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For what?
As I stated earlier... my audio, digital and analog, is just fine in my home with VERY inexpensive cables.


My condolences to those that get caught up in marketing hype and want to believe that a well constructed free cable and a $20 cable makes an audible improvement.


If it works for you... great! Enjoy!
I'm very happy it works for you also.

The condolences was because you don't notice improvement in computer/streaming since? The 1990s

And I understand you, you and me both grow up with lampcord and free bees.

In very early age I changed my freebees, you didn't

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post #372 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:28 PM
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Mine sound the same at my age.
I'll admit, some of my cables are almost your age.
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #373 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:29 PM
 
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Links?
Just check the YouTubers I've shown.

Hans and Zero Fidelity, Paul also mention them.
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post #374 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:31 PM
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In very early age I changed my freebees, you didn't
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post #375 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:34 PM
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Zero Fidelity sounds like a company that really hates sound quality!
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post #376 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:52 PM
 
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Zero Fidelity sounds like a company that really hates sound quality!
Zero is a youtuber...

Here Hans Beekhauzen talk about HDD solutions and so on..

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post #377 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 04:58 PM
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That would be take 14 minutes of pulling my hair out of my skull [if I still had hair] and wincing/cringing at all his industry driven mythology drivel, but thanks anyways.
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post #378 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 05:02 PM
 
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Sotm makes hifi Usb and network stuff..
They even make expensive hifi routers..
Hans loves them.

Hans is not a salesman, he has worked a lifetime in famous Hi end magazines in Europe, and is an author.

His speciality is Digital audio, all the way back to cd and MP3..

https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/en...tem/tx-usbhub/

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post #379 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 05:03 PM
 
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Ratman is a smart guy.
He is happy, that's nice..
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post #380 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 05:14 PM
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$350 for a USB Hub that that can't support USB 3.0 and only has a measly 2 ports? I bet they don't sell many.

Thanks for the link though.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #381 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 05:16 PM
 
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$350 for a USB Hub that that can't support USB 3.0 and only has a measly 2 ports? I bet they don't sell many.



Thanks for the link though.
They are doing well, alot of ads, I see them all the time...
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post #382 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 05:23 PM
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Hans is not a salesman, he has worked a lifetime in famous Hi end magazines in Europe, and is an author.



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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #383 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 05:42 PM
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They are doing well, alot of ads, I see them all the time...
Having a lot of ads doesn't prove they sell a lot of this two position only, USB 2.0 only, $350 hub.
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post #384 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 05:43 PM
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Hans is not a salesman, he has worked a lifetime in famous Hi end magazines in Europe, and is an author.


He started out selling Hi-Fi and recording gear. Today he sells himself and his opinions. I am sure that he makes a comfortable living at it.
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post #385 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 05:49 PM
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$350 for a USB Hub that that can't support USB 3.0 and only has a measly 2 ports? I bet they don't sell many.

Thanks for the link though.
I had to quote this and put it in bold. Because of the sheer audacity of a company to produce such a product. SMH

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Vizio M75-E1; Oppo 203 universal UHD player; Denon 4300H AVR, Dual PSA S1801's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; one pair NHT mini Atmos speakers; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, GeForce 980Ti, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case); Roku Premiere+; Amazon 4K Fire TV
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post #386 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 06:12 PM
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I had to quote this and put it in bold. Because of the sheer audacity of a company to produce such a product. SMH

Think about this: Here's a great reason for them to make this product even if they expect to sell hardly any:

Customer: Hi, I want to return this USB cable, please.

Salesman: I understand. Your satisfaction is our top priority. Perhaps the issue is you haven't burned it in sufficiently?

Customer: No, I don't think that's it. I ran it for 500 hours just like you said.

Salesman. I understand. Your satisfaction is our top priority. Are you sure you were using the best filter option on you DAC?

Customer: I tried all three. Didn't matter. I just want to return it please.

Salesman: I understand. Your satisfaction is our top priority. Were you using bi-wiring to your speakers for the best separation?

Customer: Look, I just want to return it, OK?

Salesperson: I understand. Your satisfaction is our top priority. What was the other end plugged to?

Customer: My $10,000 computer system.

Salesperson: Directly?

Customer: Well, not directly. I use a USB hub.

Salesperson: Well there's your problem right there! Typical cheap hubs may be fine for the data from printers, scanners, hard drives, mice, etc. but all the non-audiophile grade ones smear the data of the sound stage of advanced DACs like yours. You need to buy this extra $350, two position USB 2.0 hub or you aren't going to get the best performance out of that cable you had thought you wanted to return. Step right over here and let's pick out what power supply for it will best suit your needs since your satisfaction is our top priority. . . . .
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post #387 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Think about this: Here's a great reason for them to make this product even if they expect to sell hardly any:

Customer: Hi, I want to return this USB cable, please.

Salesman: I understand. Your satisfaction is our top priority. Perhaps the issue is you haven't burned it in sufficiently?

Customer: No, I don't think that's it. I ran it for 500 hours just like you said.

Salesman. I understand. Your satisfaction is our top priority. Are you sure you were using the best filter option on you DAC?

Customer: I tried all three. Didn't matter. I just want to return it please.

Salesman: I understand. Your satisfaction is our top priority. Were you using bi-wiring to your speakers for the best separation?

Customer: Look, I just want to return it, OK?

Salesperson: I understand. Your satisfaction is our top priority. What was the other end plugged to?

Customer: My $10,000 computer system.

Salesperson: Directly?

Customer: Well, not directly. I use a USB hub.

Salesperson: Well there's your problem right there! Typical cheap hubs may be fine for the data from printers, scanners, hard drives, mice, etc. but all the non-audiophile grade ones smear the data of the sound stage of advanced DACs like yours. You need to buy this extra $350, two position USB 2.0 hub or you aren't going to get the best performance out of that cable you had thought you wanted to return. Step right over here and let's pick out what power supply for it will best suit your needs since your satisfaction is our top priority. . . . .
Sad, but true . . . the stupid really hurts!

386 posts in this thread and counting! I'm no expert, but all this talk about jitter and cables doesn't make sense to me--the data is buffered at the receiving end of the DAC, right?

My humble main system:
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post #388 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 06:53 PM
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Sad, but true . . . the stupid really hurts!

386 posts in this thread and counting! I'm no expert, but all this talk about jitter and cables doesn't make sense to me--the data is buffered at the receiving end of the DAC, right?
Well some DACs are synchronous and some are asynchronous so where the clocking occurs may differ but in the end it just doesn't matter with modern designs, either way.


The con hardly anyone gets is that just because something can be measured [like jitter] it doesn't prove it can be sensed. That's the beauty of marketing jitter as the catch all boogeyman we should "all fear". Any two devices have a different amount of jitter, just like no two people have exactly the same weight [measured to the 1/1000th of a gram]. So a marketer can say "Our new wonder clock has new de-jitter technology and is far lower than the competition, so the sound stage and imaging is more precise. See, look at this scope image which proves it." [Jitter has nothing to do with this , by the way, but I digress.]

This would be like saying "Our new nano technology fibers have lower mass so your car's floor mats will have lower mass and here's a link to a sciency technical jargon document showing acceleration is hindered by mass, so this proves our floor mats will make your car accelerate faster! See here's the proof our nano fibers have lower mass" [shows readouts of super precise scale that can measure in units of .001 grams]. "You'll have the fastest car on the block!"
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post #389 of 570 Old 08-06-2019, 07:54 PM
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I'm no expert, but all this talk about jitter and cables doesn't make sense to me--the data is buffered at the receiving end of the DAC, right?
The late Julian Dunn was one of the most highly regarded experts on jitter in audio systems. If you would like to read some of his work, you can search for these articles:

Julian Dunn - Audio Precision - TN23 - Jitter Theory

Julian Dunn - Jitter - Specification and Assessment in Digital Audio Equipment

Julian Dunn - Measurement Techniques for Digital Audio

Julian Dunn - The Diagnosis and Solution of Jitter-related problems in Digital Audio Systems

Julian Dunn - The Numerically-Identical CD Mystery - A Study in Perception versus Measurement

Warning: Some math is involved.
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post #390 of 570 Old 08-07-2019, 12:41 AM
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... the very act of taking a test fundamentally destroys the ability to hear the difference or at least compromises it. Got it.

...
Then, why bother with a sighted test. It is grossly compromised and worthless.
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