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post #421 of 570 Old 08-07-2019, 12:40 PM
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What's the agenda?


Stop with back handed insults and get on topic.


No one is "right" and no one is "wrong".
Let's try to have some fun and share experience(s) without bravado please?



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #422 of 570 Old 08-07-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
What's the agenda?
Trying to find evidence if functional USB cables sound any different from one another under controlled conditions. [There's none that I know of.] A worthy topic for an audio science forum if you ask me.

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post #423 of 570 Old 08-07-2019, 12:48 PM
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No back handed insult was intended on my part.
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post #424 of 570 Old 08-07-2019, 12:55 PM
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Everyone's part.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #425 of 570 Old 08-07-2019, 06:57 PM
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USB cables can't sound different, even if they had differences in their ability to correctly transmit a signal USB audio isn't a "live" decoded audio stream so that difference can not manifest itself in audio quality outside of obvious glitches or gaps in playback.
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post #426 of 570 Old 08-07-2019, 07:12 PM
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Until 1976 omg, that's a lifetime with journalism. Same as Guttenberg, he also worked a lifetime in studio engineering...

So if somebody started his life selling hifi,they are not trustworthy???
Yes, he has had a long career in journalism.

However, the issue with Beekhuyzen is that he is being promoted here as an engineer and an 'expert'. He is not. There is also no mention on his website in his CV that he did anything in studio engineering other than sell equipment. He has written articles for audio publications that subsisted on the revenues of advertisers whose products he reviewed. Bad reviews means no equipment will be further forthcoming to write articles about. Bad reviews mean a drop in advertisement dollars for the publication. His website and videos are now self-promotion so he collects all the ad revenue and revenue from his 'book' sales for himself. As I said earlier, he probably makes a comfortable living at it.

His articles and videos are being presented here as expert scientific fact. They are not. Some of the views he espouses in his videos and articles are the same fallacies that have been put forth in advertisement laden audio magazines and websites for years. By continuing to to post links to his material only perpetuates those myths and fallacies to those without the technical skill or understanding to make decisions based on fact. It is disingenuous to promote him as anything other than a journalist and it does nothing to dispell the ignorance that real engineers and scientists in the field of audio have devoted their entire adult lives to fighting.

Those same engineers and scientists have given us marvelous technologies to enrich our lives with. If arguments are going to be put forth to refute the technologies they have worked so hard to bring to the world, then cite published works from scientists and engineers of equal caliber whose peer reviewed works show the others to be wrong. To link to videos of 'experts' like Beekhuyzen or some teenage YouTuber spending ten minutes fondling some expensive cable and rattling off some specifications that they don't even understand the meaning of calls into question the motivation, veracity, and cognition of those who link to them.

Johannes Gensfleisch zur Laden zum Gutenberg was a German inventor, printer, and publisher who invented the printing press using his invention of moveable type. This singular invention changed human existence and brought knowledge to the people of the world. To place Beekhuyzen on the same level as Gutenberg is both preposterous and stultifying.
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post #427 of 570 Old 08-07-2019, 07:27 PM
 
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This thread is still goin on lol. If you are satisfied with audioquestt usb's , then that's all the matters, convincing the naysayers would achieve what?
I dont have experience with audioquest usb's, but with analog interconnect rca's, i own a pair of audioquest red rivers, dont some people say analog interconnects when connecting a receiver to a discrete power amp does not make a difference? in my case it did because of the better shielding, that's what their cables are good at-shielding. the previous amazon basics rca's i was using also claimed shielding in the specs but it was piicking up noise, i had a full bunch of cobbled up cables at the back through which i was passing through the rca's, after changing the interconnects to audioquest red rivers, the power amp noise was gone, amp was sounding cleaner.

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post #428 of 570 Old 08-07-2019, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Wonder why the OP hadn't checked in.
Remember this? This is the OP checking out:

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Originally Posted by hhawk View Post
I came back to fess up. The USB cord that sounded better than those out of the box was actually just an Amazon basic! Before you jump to any conclusions, this still changes my mind as to whether there is such a thing as "burn in". This $10 cable bested one cable costing 10 times more and another costing 20 times more. That just shouldn't happen, or those two different companies - Audioquest and Wireworld, wouldn't still be in business. There has to be something to their improving over time.

Explanation - I had forgotten that I had moved the Forest to my CD player a long time ago. This gave the existing USB cord a long time to do whatever it did in my system and for my ears to adjust.. I'm sure part of this is my ears adapting to the positive points of the cable. That I could not hear some of those benefits with the new cable is proof to me that these cables sound different, at least until they have a chance to settle in. This is the opposite of expectation bias as I was actually disappointed in brand name cables that I expected to sound at least the same and certainly not worse.

I have read that USB cords that separate the ground from the rest of the cord tend to sound better than those that do not. I have also read that though the cables send 0's and 1's, these are sent in the analogue methodology which can be effected.

So I returned the other cables and sprung for the fairly expensive Curious cable ($349) that I did like right out of the box. They say it can take 100s of hours to "burn in" so I bought an inexpensive USB DAC from China ($20) and am streaming the chord constantly. If the sound gets better it will be gravy as far as I am concerned.

Sorry for the confusion but in this case it kind of turned into a minor blind test for me which has changed my view on whether cables can sound different. I'm certain that with better equipment, in a room you are used to listening in, minor differences can be heard. And it is that search for more detail that keeps this hobby so much fun for me.
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post #429 of 570 Old 08-07-2019, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Trying to find evidence if functional USB cables sound any different from one another under controlled conditions. A worthy topic for an audio science forum if you ask me.
Truly, a modern-day Diogenes. Searching for the one thing that cannot be found.
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post #430 of 570 Old 08-07-2019, 11:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
This thread is still goin on lol. If you are satisfied with audioquestt usb's , then that's all the matters, convincing the naysayers would achieve what?
I dont have experience with audioquest usb's, but with analog interconnect rca's, i own a pair of audioquest red rivers, dont some people say analog interconnects when connecting a receiver to a discrete power amp does not make a difference? in my case it did because of the better shielding, that's what their cables are good at-shielding. the previous amazon basics rca's i was using also claimed shielding in the specs but it was piicking up noise, i had a full bunch of cobbled up cables at the back through which i was passing through the rca's, after changing the interconnects to audioquest red rivers, the power amp noise was gone, amp was sounding cleaner.
That's impossible Gerry. You're a madman!
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post #431 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:03 AM
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Truly, a modern-day Diogenes. Searching for the one thing that cannot be found.
But, but, but just because we haven't found any flying reindeer yet doesn't mean there aren't any. Don't be silly: Everyone knows some reindeer fly!
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post #432 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 04:22 AM
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Johannes Gensfleisch zur Laden zum Gutenberg was a German inventor, printer, and publisher who invented the printing press using his invention of moveable type. This singular invention changed human existence and brought knowledge to the people of the world. To place Beekhuyzen on the same level as Gutenberg is both preposterous and stultifying.
I think he's referring to this Guttenberg:


https://www.patreon.com/Audiophiliac
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post #433 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 05:27 AM
 
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Yeah it was Steve Guttenberg
And I never sayd Hans is an engineer, but he has studied digital audio for a lifetime.


Its my opinion and experience that many digital cables sounds different.

One exception is HDMI, this is made to send nowadays 4K video, and has good bandwidth and shielding I believe.. even the generic.

But as OP mentioned, it's not always the most expensive digital cable that is the best...
But they are different..

M.Zillch stated also earlier that all well constructed Dacs also sounds the same...
This is a typical Objective misbelief...

Most of them sounds very different..

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post #434 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
This thread is still goin on lol. If you are satisfied with audioquestt usb's , then that's all the matters, convincing the naysayers would achieve what?
I dont have experience with audioquest usb's, but with analog interconnect rca's, i own a pair of audioquest red rivers, dont some people say analog interconnects when connecting a receiver to a discrete power amp does not make a difference? in my case it did because of the better shielding, that's what their cables are good at-shielding. the previous amazon basics rca's i was using also claimed shielding in the specs but it was piicking up noise, i had a full bunch of cobbled up cables at the back through which i was passing through the rca's, after changing the interconnects to audioquest red rivers, the power amp noise was gone, amp was sounding cleaner.
Nooooo Gezza! Attempting to draw parallels with RCA terminated analog interconnects simply because they're also manufactured by Audioquest is just muddying the waters. (At least one member is befuddled already.) Analog audio interconnects have got nothing whatsoever to do with digital data transmission via USB. Completely different animal.

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This thread is still goin on lol.
Your mirth is understandable. This thread should have been game over at least as far back as post 48:

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Originally Posted by qirex View Post
USB doesn't carry an audio signal, it carries a series of packets that are converted into audio at the endpoint. If there was a transmission problem that the error correction was unable to account for (which is possible) the resulting change at the output end would absolutely not be subtle musical properties like soundstage, imaging or bass impact. Problems with digital audio transmission sound like loud pops, stuttering, dropouts and garbled full volume distortion. If you are not experiencing these your USB cable is working properly and carrying a perfect signal. In practice USB 2 or more has plenty of bandwidth for 2 channel audio and incidental packet transmission problems can be resolved in plenty of time at the buffer stage before it gets to the decoder.
[My emphasis.]
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post #435 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 06:07 AM
 
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Nooooo Gezza! Attempting to draw parallels with RCA terminated analog interconnects simply because they're also manufactured by Audioquest is just muddying the waters. (At least one member is befuddled already.) Analog audio interconnects have got nothing whatsoever to do with digital data transmission via USB. Completely different animal.





Your mirth is understandable. This thread should have been game over at least as far back as post 48:




[My emphasis.]
Digital signal is sent analogue..

And nobody seems to talk about the noise and Emi a generic freebee USB or other digital cable can pick up and deliver to the Dac.

Here is often the performance related to how good the Dac or setup handles this.

The cable is just a chain...

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post #436 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
Digital signal is sent analogue..

And nobody seems to talk about the noise and Emi a generic freebee USB or other digital cable can pick up and deliver to the Dac.

Here is often the performance related to how good the Dac or setup handles this.

The cable is just a chain...

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Yes all electrical transmission is analog.

But the way the information (in this case music) is encoded in that electrical signal makes all the difference. Excessive capacitance for example will roll off high frequencies. And that will round off the data pulses. But unlike analog audio transmission, rolling off high frequencies on digital audio data does not mean the high frequencies in the recovered audio signal are rolled off. The roll off does not hurt anything until it gets bad enough to where a one or zero can't be distinguished. Then you have a error which usually results in a nasty click or pop.

As for noise and EMI, again unless severe enough to prevent accurate differentiation between ones and zeros, it doesn't hurt anything. The other concern is the noise coupling into the analog circuits of a DAC. Yes, it is possible. But in a typical residence there generally isn't RFI at a sufficient magnitude to be audible in that situation. If you system is quiet, then adding better USB cables isn't going to make a hill of beans worth of difference.

This is just FUD to sell expensive cables. All these claims of extended high end, more spacing in the music, tight low end, are simply not possible via the attributes of a digital transmission system. Yet many audiophiles can't grasp that concept. In their minds anything makes a difference. And they are wrong!

Digital cables either induce errors or they don't. And errors sound very bad! These claims of subtle audio differences are just not possible under well established laws of physics. Those who hear such differences are simply victims of placebo effect.
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post #437 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 12:07 PM
 
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Yes all electrical transmission is analog.

But the way the information (in this case music) is encoded in that electrical signal makes all the difference. Excessive capacitance for example will roll off high frequencies. And that will round off the data pulses. But unlike analog audio transmission, rolling off high frequencies on digital audio data does not mean the high frequencies in the recovered audio signal are rolled off. The roll off does not hurt anything until it gets bad enough to where a one or zero can't be distinguished. Then you have a error which usually results in a nasty click or pop.

As for noise and EMI, again unless severe enough to prevent accurate differentiation between ones and zeros, it doesn't hurt anything. The other concern is the noise coupling into the analog circuits of a DAC. Yes, it is possible. But in a typical residence there generally isn't RFI at a sufficient magnitude to be audible in that situation. If you system is quiet, then adding better USB cables isn't going to make a hill of beans worth of difference.

This is just FUD to sell expensive cables. All these claims of extended high end, more spacing in the music, tight low end, are simply not possible via the attributes of a digital transmission system. Yet many audiophiles can't grasp that concept. In their minds anything makes a difference. And they are wrong!

Digital cables either induce errors or they don't. And errors sound very bad! These claims of subtle audio differences are just not possible under well established laws of physics. Those who hear such differences are simply victims of placebo effect.
We’re talking about well built cables with quality connectors and shielding and built to spec for under $100. Even if I believed they made no difference at all I’d still buy that to carry the bits in a $30k system solely for peace of mind.

For a $200 desktop system, use whatever you’ve got laying around.
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post #438 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 12:39 PM
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M.Zillch stated also earlier that all well constructed Dacs also sounds the same...
This is a typical Objective misbelief..
Based on science.

D-to-A (and A-to-D) were essentially "perfect" to human ears even before the commercial release of digital music formats like CD in 1982 [blind testing showed this] however machines such as the Ampex ADD-1 [and Sony PCM-F1] could cost thousands of dollars back then. Now the ones that plays music from our cellphones outclass those and are essentially "free". [Well, you need to buy the cellphone.]

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post #439 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 12:56 PM
 
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I post this from Paul because Hans version was abit mean and provocative.

Anyway I totally agree with Paul.

And try for yourself...
Don't read mesurments of generic Logitech and cheap Beldon (I think they are nice budget)

The tester claimed that Schiiit was crap because it was dependent on a entry level well built quality cable..

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post #440 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 12:59 PM
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We’re talking about well built cables with quality connectors and shielding and built to spec for under $100. Even if I believed they made no difference at all I’d still buy that to carry the bits in a $30k system solely for peace of mind.

For a $200 desktop system, use whatever you’ve got laying around.
Attack science and engineering with snobbery!

My work system with an AES distribution core of 2048x2432 easily tops $30K, tops $30 million too. And we use basic Belden cable!
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The performance of DAC/ADC systems is so much better than it used to be, chips you can get in bulk for under a quarter vastly outperform what were $50+ top end 16 bit Burr-Bown and the like DACs that were found in very expensive 1990s gear. Stuff designed today with attention and a quality Sabre, AKM, etc. DAC are only let down in the analog and amplification stage.
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post #442 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 01:00 PM
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Schiiit was crap
That's a well know fact.



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In a budget Dac like Henry or Schiiit with good quality chipset the manufacturer in Norway, Poland or USA can choose if he want a Dac with high sound quality and more dependent of a well built entry level cable or a less expensive chipset that is forgiving to freebee usb with a strong signal in.

I promise the manufacturer think about this.

I wish they state this in a manual..

Hifi Dac you must use specced quality cable versus cheaper ok Dac - any cable will do...
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That's a well know fact.
I only hear this from you and some of the extreme objectists.

All others praise Schiiit, Henry and other budget Dacs...

If all is wrong and a newbie with a freebee cable is right I rest my case.
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Missed the pun I guess.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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Pun intended
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post #447 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
In a budget Dac like Henry or Schiiit with good quality chipset the manufacturer in Norway, Poland or USA can choose if he want a Dac with high sound quality and more dependent of a well built entry level cable or a less expensive chipset that is forgiving to freebee usb with a strong signal in.

I promise the manufacturer think about this.

I wish they state this in a manual..

Hifi Dac you must use specced quality cable versus cheaper ok Dac - any cable will do...
And what is this logic based on? A higher quality DAC should have better internal shielding and power supply isolation to where USB cable shielding quality is less important than a cheap unit.

And you know how most "audiophile grade" DACs are built? They take a chip vendors reference design and build a box around it. Yet many of these copmpanies lack the engineering expereince and knowledge to do the basic design details the chip vendor assume you know.

Like it or not, the DAC section of a $299 Denon AV receiver has far more engineering behind it than any overpriced audiophile DAC. Just think about it. You are going to run a million units. You damn well better have the circuit bullet proof.
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Pun intended
Yes, it was.



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Attack science and engineering with snobbery!

My work system with an AES distribution core of 2048x2432 easily tops $30K, tops $30 million too. And we use basic Belden cable!
Belden makes great quality cables built to spec. That’s exactly what I referenced. You’re dealing in pure hyperbole. “Attack” science and engineering, LOL give me a break.

Belden also makes reference audiophile cables under the Iconoclast brand I believe.
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And what is this logic based on? A higher quality DAC should have better internal shielding and power supply isolation to where USB cable shielding quality is less important than a cheap unit.

And you know how most "audiophile grade" DACs are built? They take a chip vendors reference design and build a box around it. Yet many of these copmpanies lack the engineering expereince and knowledge to do the basic design details the chip vendor assume you know.

Like it or not, the DAC section of a $299 Denon AV receiver has far more engineering behind it than any overpriced audiophile DAC. Just think about it. You are going to run a million units. You damn well better have the circuit bullet proof.
Here we go, now tell us how dumb we are for not using AV receivers. Let it flow through you.
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