Audioquest Forest USB VS Wireworld Starlight 8 - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 302Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #451 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 01:49 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,456
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2402 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
Here we go, now tell us how dumb we are for not using AV receivers. Let it flow through you.
No one is "dumb". No one said YOU have to use an AV receiver or a Schiity DAC. Belden makes fine wire/cables.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #452 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 01:53 PM
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,051
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 845 Post(s)
Liked: 441
https://www.iconoclastcable.com/

Here are Belden’s audiophile grade cables. Sorry they aren’t free guys.
emcdade is offline  
post #453 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 01:57 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,456
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2402 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
https://www.iconoclastcable.com/aboutus.htm


BJC is responsible for this website and for the assembly and marketing of Iconoclast products.

Sorry... no USB guys.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein

Last edited by Ratman; 08-08-2019 at 02:05 PM.
Ratman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #454 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: College Station, Texas
Posts: 2,214
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1059 Post(s)
Liked: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
I post this from Paul because Hans version was abit mean and provocative.

Anyway I totally agree with Paul.

And try for yourself...
Don't read mesurments of generic Logitech and cheap Beldon (I think they are nice budget)

The tester claimed that Schiiit was crap because it was dependent on a entry level well built quality cable..

https://youtu.be/3mHaSb8Nc8c
I don't know if I would put Paul up as an example, since he is well known for advocating things like "special" power cable, etc. The thing is even if you could prove electrically that the signal going in and coming out of an ABX box is %100 identical, he would still claim there is an issue with the box, or the electronics behind it, or his mood, or maybe he has a rumbly tummy LOL. Or he will say well there is a %0.000001 difference in the signal so the test is garbage. Look buy what you want, $5 cable or $500 cable, just don't get mad when people laugh that you spent a tone of money to get what amounts to an inaudible difference.
liffie420 is offline  
post #455 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,171
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1087 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
Belden makes great quality cables built to spec. That’s exactly what I referenced. You’re dealing in pure hyperbole. “Attack” science and engineering, LOL give me a break.

Belden also makes reference audiophile cables under the Iconoclast brand I believe.
Show me a Belden catalog page for Iconoclast?

That product is basically dead. It was a pet project for a long tenure staff engineer who happened to be an audiophile. He also recently retired. The manufacturing cost was astronomical. The product lives on through BJC on a per order basis but I'll bet they sell very, very, few.

The fact that Belden never officially promoted this product line speaks volumes. As the worlds largest communications cabling manufacture then knew damn well doing so would alienate a large portion of the professional customer base. Smart move on their part! And they also offered no slack to the product manager.

"You want to shut down a CAT5/6 cable line to make speaker cables? Fine here's the hourly cost to do that!" Hence the un-affordable cost of the Iconoclast cables.

See when you step out of the audiophile fairy land and get into the real world of electronics, the reality sets in.
Glimmie is offline  
post #456 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:22 PM
 
IIDexII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 319 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
https://www.iconoclastcable.com/aboutus.htm


BJC is responsible for this website and for the assembly and marketing of Iconoclast products.

Sorry... no USB guys.
I don't know if your insults is another Pun, or I as a Norwegian miss the points.

Bjc is well into the miserable USB and Ethernet from freebees and especially Wall mart. What Regards monoprice I don't know.

It's even tested by Bjc and most of the cheap usb, Ethernet failed specs.

Thats science, they publish the tests on theyr home page.

Data cables Bjc

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store...bles/index.htm

What Regards Norwegian Henry and Schiiit.

That is BUDGET Dacs god forbid that they choose the best chipset and power supply, and thought people could get an entry speccet cable to keep prices down.
IIDexII is offline  
post #457 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,171
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1087 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
https://www.iconoclastcable.com/aboutus.htm


BJC is responsible for this website and for the assembly and marketing of Iconoclast products.

Sorry... no USB guys.
And see that's not a Belden page. A search of their site yields nothing. Try it:

www.belden.com

They do not officially acknowledge the product.
Glimmie is offline  
post #458 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:26 PM
 
IIDexII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 319 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
I don't know if I would put Paul up as an example, since he is well known for advocating things like "special" power cable, etc. The thing is even if you could prove electrically that the signal going in and coming out of an ABX box is %100 identical, he would still claim there is an issue with the box, or the electronics behind it, or his mood, or maybe he has a rumbly tummy LOL. Or he will say well there is a %0.000001 difference in the signal so the test is garbage. Look buy what you want, $5 cable or $500 cable, just don't get mad when people laugh that you spent a tone of money to get what amounts to an inaudible difference.
I was nice, Paul is nice..
He says he understands the other part.

If I was bad I would put Hans video out, that compare Abx with mad scientist and unethical experiments with children in Nazi allike camps.
IIDexII is offline  
post #459 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:28 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,456
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2402 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
I don't know if I would put Paul up as an example, .
Some would agree.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is offline  
post #460 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,171
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1087 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
I don't know if I would put Paul up as an example, since he is well known for advocating things like "special" power cable, etc. The thing is even if you could prove electrically that the signal going in and coming out of an ABX box is %100 identical, he would still claim there is an issue with the box, or the electronics behind it, or his mood, or maybe he has a rumbly tummy LOL. Or he will say well there is a %0.000001 difference in the signal so the test is garbage. Look buy what you want, $5 cable or $500 cable, just don't get mad when people laugh that you spent a tone of money to get what amounts to an inaudible difference.
Paul has also said he needs to know which cable is playing to make a judgement. ABT, DBT useless!

Hello.....
Glimmie is offline  
post #461 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:30 PM
 
IIDexII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 319 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Abx in medicine is effective, but sooner or later they will get that this doesn't correlate with subjective opinion on our senses...

Namely sound, taste, and so on.
IIDexII is offline  
post #462 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:31 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,456
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2402 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
And see that's not a Belden page. A search of their site yields nothing. Try it:

www.belden.com

They do not officially acknowledge the product.
Preaching to the choir.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is offline  
post #463 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:32 PM
 
IIDexII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 319 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Paul has also said he needs to know which cable is playing to make a judgement. ABT, DBT useless!



Hello.....
I agree totally, but they do blindtest om theyr products but A,B only....
IIDexII is offline  
post #464 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,171
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1087 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
I don't know if your insults is another Pun, or I as a Norwegian miss the points.

Bjc is well into the miserable USB and Ethernet from freebees and especially Wall mart. What Regards monoprice I don't know.

It's even tested by Bjc and most of the cheap usb, Ethernet failed specs.

Thats science, they publish the tests on theyr home page.

Data cables Bjc

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store...bles/index.htm

What Regards Norwegian Henry and Schiiit.

That is BUDGET Dacs god forbid that they choose the best chipset and power supply, and thought people could get an entry speccet cable to keep prices down.
I can send gigabit Ethernet down CAT3 phone cable without any errors all day long! That's a fact.

That's a trick statement though! I left something very important out. Remember all electrical transmission is analog.

The point is there's a lot more to cable quality for the application than price. A cheap cable that does not meet specs may still perform flawlessly depending on the application.
Glimmie is offline  
post #465 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:34 PM
 
IIDexII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 319 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Preaching to the choir.
Thats the argument from the objectizts when they don't have anything left to say..

Maybe with a very cool and funny gif
IIDexII is offline  
post #466 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:35 PM
 
IIDexII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 319 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
I can send gigabit Ethernet down CAT3 phone cable without any errors all day long! That's a fact.



That's a trick statement though! I left something very important out. Remember all electrical transmission is analog.



The point is there's a lot more to cable quality for the application than price. A cheap cable that does not meet specs may still perform flawlessly depending on the application.
The bandwidth may be a scientific problem..
IIDexII is offline  
post #467 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,171
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1087 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
The bandwidth may be a scientific problem..
No, I said gigabit Ethernet. The bandwidth is specified.
Ratman likes this.
Glimmie is offline  
post #468 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:37 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,456
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2402 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
I don't know if your insults is another Pun, or I as a Norwegian miss the points.
Data cables Bjc

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store...bles/index.htm
No insult, no pun. Iconoclast doesn't sell USB.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is offline  
post #469 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:43 PM
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,051
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 845 Post(s)
Liked: 441
Yes let’s promote cables that don’t meet a spec because they might just work. Brilliant! Science and engineering at its finest.
IIDexII likes this.
emcdade is offline  
post #470 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,171
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1087 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
Yes let’s promote cables that don’t meet a spec because they might just work. Brilliant! Science and engineering at its finest.
That's not what I said at all. It's a trick statement, although true, to see how many of you audio cable experts actually know what is going on down inside that copper wire surrounded by plastic.

You are quick to tell everyone which cables are the best yet what do you know about the technology at play?
Glimmie is offline  
post #471 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 02:52 PM
 
IIDexII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 319 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Since Abx is a hot subject... And the gloves is off. Let's throw the gloves.

Hans is willing to Abx, just take a collect of cash and fund 50000

And he will enter the lab and take looong scientific test in Switzerland I think.

I die to se the test of a freebee Logitech and a more expensive cable... So I hope you pay.


IIDexII is offline  
post #472 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 03:03 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,456
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2402 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Hans, Franz, McGowan.... Pfhhht.
If YouTube is someone's primary source for technical info and decisions, I wish them well.


EDIT:
The 1st 8 seconds of the video says it all. Trust me! I'm right. Everyone else is wrong.
m. zillch likes this.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein

Last edited by Ratman; 08-08-2019 at 03:09 PM.
Ratman is offline  
post #473 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 03:04 PM
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,051
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 845 Post(s)
Liked: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
And see that's not a Belden page. A search of their site yields nothing. Try it:

www.belden.com

They do not officially acknowledge the product.
It's a Belden engineer of 35 years making the cables at Belden. But please, continue to split hairs here. It's valuable to the discourse.
emcdade is offline  
post #474 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 03:05 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 12,943
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5379 Post(s)
Liked: 3882
Quote:
Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
I post this from Paul because Hans version was abit mean and provocative.
Paul doesn't know what he is talking about, makes numerous factual errors and misrepresentations, and admits that in the case of his ABX test, 30 years ago, he can't even remember what was being tested:

Jump to 47 seconds in (if my link below doesn't take you there directly):

Paul, at 47 seconds in: ". . . and I don't remember what we were trying to test for . . . "


So for all we know he was testing for example speakers, or any number of other items where we should expect listeners to be able to hear a difference.

He also lies, or perhaps just incorrectly remembers, about how it works:

"You had a button and you could hear
A [*uses hand gesture to show a button being pressed*],
B [*uses hand gesture to show the exact same, single button being pressed*]
or X [*uses hand gesture to show the exact same, single button being pressed*]

WRONG
Paul. You have multiple direct access buttons on the hand held remote so you can jump straight to the sound you want, A, B, or X, instantly and directly, at any time you choose. It is not a sequential thing, as you imply, trying to make it seem like a much more difficult test which requires memory.

Here's the remote he used:

http://djcarlst.provide.net/abxhcm.gif

Deceptive people do their best to fool people into thinking the way Clark's ABX switch box worked involved having to juggle in one's mind three different sounds, all at once, in memory. THIS IS PATENTLY FALSE. ABX is an open book test so the sounds of A and B, fully labelled and identified for what they truly are, require no long term memory at all. The only sound with a hidden identity is X. [The up down buttons on the remote allow the listener to scroll up and down between what trial number they are on, as displayed on an LED readout they look at during the test, by the way.]

". . . and you didn't know which was what. . . "
FALSE. Great job wording it to scare people so they think they are juggling three unknowns in their mind though, Paul. The listener knows exactly what A is, what B is, [and if the test designer chooses, their exact brand, model number, appearance, and price] and can instantly re-hear them as many times as they want, both before and after they hear the mystery sound X which they are voting on as being A or B.

[*waves hand around to show a state of confusion*] "so the testing people didn't know, you didn't know. And. Um. There were a whole bunch of things wrong with that."

And all these problems [none of which Paul seems to have explained yet] evaporate away by making the test sighted, Paul? NOPE.

Later he mentions the "sound degradation of switching relays".

A. For some reason the input selector relay in his own company's integrated amps somehow manage to be beyond reproach.

B
. You can run a double blind pre-test, of just the switch box against straight wire, to see if the switch/relay indeed causes "audible degradation" as he fears. [It doesn't.]

C
. The music we listen to has passed through hundreds if not thousands of various switches/relays along its journey from the recording studio, to the mixing, mastering, etc.. before it reaches our ears and nobody seems to complain about those.

D
. When I run blind tests, as I explained in my video, I give the listener the option to use hard wire cable swapping instead of a switch. Their choice. [After all, when they "heard a difference" between DACs, USB cords, whatever, wasn't cable swapping exactly how they were doing it?]

"The resolution of the speakers was grim." [My listeners use whatever speakers, and other peripheral gear they want. I don't choose them, they do.]

"I think they were Snell?" Interesting he can remember what the speakers were but not what was being tested! [Psst, I bet he picked Snell for his little story as a back handed slam against Meyer and Moran testing, if you ask me.]

". . . and undisclosed electronics."

In all blind testing, including ABX tests, all the electronics are fully disclosed to the listeners in any I have ever conducted or read about. But again, he is trying to scare people away from even trying it.

"It certainly wasn't setup properly for imaging, spatial cues, and the things I am more sensitive to. . . ."

I can't speak for everyone, but in my blind amp test the entire setup was done by the recording engineer I tested himself, using his gear of choice, his treated room of choice, his preferred speaker placement and positioning, and his music of choice.


"If we're not in the right frame of mind we aren't going to hear. . . "

So I guess this problem you speak of doesn't occur with sighted tests because people are always in the right frame of mind when conducting sighted tests. Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Uri Geller uses the same deception to pass off his failures: "I'm not feeling strong tonight" he says to Johnny Carson in the earlier video. Fine. We'll stop the test and and start a new one whenever you feel you can make decisions about sound using only your hearing, not your sight, Paul.

"If I'm on public display, if there's pressure on me, I clam up. I don't do well at all. If I have an audience and I'm being judged by that audience. My brain just kinda turns off.. . . If I'm being tested I don't do well."

He means in a double blind test he doesn't do well. In sighted testing he brags earlier that he has a discerning ear. Also when doing a Foobar ABX test nobody is in the room but you, there is no audience during the test, and you can take as long as you want, even pausing the test one day and starting back up hours, days, weeks, or months later, whenever you are feeling in the mood to hear differences using your ears, not eyes.

He ends by mentioning he likes "blind" A/B testing, switching back and forth quickly between A and B, (with a helper in the room). He's done a splendid job in this video of fooling people into thinking this exact same technique of quickly switching from A to B can't not occur in ABX testing, whereas in truth many users doing ABX choose to do exactly this. I use this method quite often.

P.S. I am starring a new thread based on this post because this is important.
18Hurts likes this.

Last edited by m. zillch; 08-08-2019 at 04:01 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #475 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 03:10 PM
 
emcdade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,051
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 845 Post(s)
Liked: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. Zillch View Post
paul doesn't know what he is talking about, makes numerous factual errors and misrepresentations, and admits that in the case of his abx test, 30 years ago, he can't even remember what was being tested:

jump to 47 seconds in (if my link below doesn't take you there directly):

Paul, at 47 seconds in: ". . . and i don't remember what we were trying to test for . . . "

https://youtu.be/3mhasb8nc8c?t=47

so for all we know he was testing for example speakers, or any number of other items where we should expect listeners to be able to hear a difference.

He also lies, or perhaps just incorrectly remembers, about how it works:

"you had a button and you could hear
a [*uses hand gesture to show a button being pressed*],
b [*uses hand gesture to show the exact same, single button being pressed*]
or x [*uses hand gesture to show the exact same, single button being pressed*]

wrong
paul. You have multiple direct access buttons on the hand held remote so you can jump straight to the sound you want, a, b, or x, instantly and directly, at any time you choose. It is not a sequential thing, as you imply, trying to make it seem like a much more difficult test which requires memory.

Here's the remote he used:

http://djcarlst.provide.net/abxhcm.gif

deceptive people do their best to fool people into thinking the way clark's abx switch box worked involved having to juggle in one's mind three different sounds, all at once, in memory. this is patently false. abx is an open book test so the sounds of a and b, fully labelled and identified for what they truly are, require no long term memory at all. The only sound with a hidden identity is x. [the up down buttons on the remote allow the listener to scroll up and down between what trial number they are on, as displayed on an led readout they look at during the test, by the way.]

". . . And you didn't know which was what. . . "
false. Great job wording it to scare people so they think they are juggling three unknowns in their mind though, paul. The listener knows exactly what a is, what b is, [and if the test designer chooses, their exact brand, model number, appearance, and price] and can instantly re-hear them as many times as they want, both before and after they hear the mystery sound x which they are voting on as being a or b.

[*waves hand around to show a state of confusion*] "so the testing people didn't know, you didn't know. And. Um. There were a whole bunch of things wrong with that."

and all these problems [none of which paul seems to have explained yet] evaporate away by making the test sighted, paul? Nope.

Later he mentions the "sound degradation of switching relays".

a. For some reason the input selector relay in his own company's integrated amps somehow manage to be beyond reproach.

b
. You can run a double blind pre-test, of just the switch box against straight wire, to see if the switch/relay indeed causes "audible degradation" as he fears. [it doesn't.]

c
. The music we listen to has passed through hundreds if not thousands of switches/relays along its journey from the recording studio, to the mixing, mastering, etc.. Before it reaches our ears and nobody complains about those.

d
. When i run blind tests, as i explained in my video, i give the listener the option to use hard wire cable swapping instead of a switch. Their choice. [after all, when they "heard a difference" between dacs, usb cords, whatever, wasn't cable swapping exactly how they were doing it?

"the resolution of the speakers was grim." [my listeners use whatever speakers, and other peripheral gear they want. I don't choose them, they do.]

"i think they were snell?" interesting he can remember what the speakers were but not what was being tested! [psst, i bet he picked snell for his little story as a back handed slam against meyer and moran testing, if you ask me.]

". . . And undisclosed electronics."

in all blind testing, including abx tests, all the electronics are fully disclosed to the listeners in any i have ever conducted or read about. But again, he is trying to scare people away from even trying it.

"it certainly wasn't setup properly for imaging, spatial cues, and the things i am more sensitive to. . . ."

i can't speak for everyone, but in my blind amp test the entire setup was done by the recording engineer i tested himself, using his gear of choice, his treated room of choice, his preferred speaker placement and positioning, and his music of choice.


"if we're not in the right frame of mind we aren't going to hear. . . "

so i guess this problem you speak of doesn't occur with sighted tests because people are always in the right frame of mind when conducting sighted tests. Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Uri geller uses the same deception to pass off his failures: "i'm not feeling strong tonight" he says to johnny carson in the earlier video. Fine. We'll stop the test and and start a new one whenever you feel you can make decisions about sound using only your hearing, not your sight, paul.

"if i'm on public display, if there's pressure on me, i clam up. I don't do well at all. If i have an audience and i'm being judged by that audience. My brain just kinda turns off.. . . If i'm being tested i don't do well.

He means in a double blind test he doesn't do well. In sighted testing he brags earlier that he has a discerning ear. Also when doing a foobar abx test nobody is in the room but you, there is no audience, and you can take as long as you want, even pausing the test one day and starting back up hours, days, weeks, months, or years later, whenever you are feeling in the mood to hear differences using your ears, not eyes.

He ends by mentioning he likes "blind" a/b testing, switching back and forth quickly between a and b, (with a helper in the room). He's done a splendid job in this video of fooling people into thinking this exact same technique of quickly switching from a to b can't not occur in abx testing, whereas in truth many users doing abx choose to do exactly this. I use this method quite often.
lol
IIDexII likes this.
emcdade is offline  
post #476 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 03:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,171
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1087 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
It's a Belden engineer of 35 years making the cables at Belden. But please, continue to split hairs here. It's valuable to the discourse.
Is Belden sponsoring the product or not? Have they ever?

Seems pretty clear they don't want their name associated with it outside of niche audiophile circles. In fcat Belden is making no marketing effort at all, never did.

And the engineer is retired. (or was he "retired" for his foolish ideas like different copper sounds different but only he can hear it).
Ratman likes this.

Last edited by Glimmie; 08-08-2019 at 03:17 PM.
Glimmie is offline  
post #477 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 03:16 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,456
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2402 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Is Belden sponsoring the product or not? Have they ever?

Seems pretty clear they don't want their name associated with it outside of niche audiophile circles. In fcat Belden is making no marketing effort at all, never did.
And no USB!



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is offline  
post #478 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 03:16 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 12,943
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5379 Post(s)
Liked: 3882
Quote:
Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post

Hans is willing to Abx, just take a collect of cash and fund 50000
I'll be glad to demonstrate I can levitate with the same proviso as Hans.

Psst: Double blind testing is free, by the way, all you need is listeners and the gear/room.
m. zillch is offline  
post #479 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 03:18 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,456
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2402 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I'll be glad to demonstrate I can levitate with the same proviso as Hans.
Bend a spoon with your mind and I'm in!



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is offline  
post #480 of 570 Old 08-08-2019, 03:49 PM
 
IIDexII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 319 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Bend a spoon with your mind and I'm in!
Don't Bend a spoon and do Abx with food no difference in pet food and the best gourmet..

Yikes...
IIDexII is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply 2-Channel Audio

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off