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post #541 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 09:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Achieving what? Making cables that can pass RF signals? That has been done at least 75 years ago. What is new in the past 20 years is the silly idea that this makes any difference for baseband audio signals.

Belden has a full line of speaker wire for any AV application. From home stereo to paging systems on nuclear submarines. Again if Iconoclast had any valuable attributes, they would include it in their standard catalog.
Again, worthless speculation on your part.

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SUMMARY – Little has been left to chance in the design of ICONOCLAST cable. All the
products are born from strict measurements and the management of known electrical
parameters. Belden’s philosophy is to make as low and R, L and C cables as technically
capable. The improvement to some may be unimportant. To others, and using different
systems, they can be significant. The closer we manage the knowns, the better the tertiary
elements will move along with those improvements.

All cables “react” differently. ICONOCLAST is designed to offer the most benign
interaction possible between your amplifier and speaker by leveraging high speed digital
design principals to the much more complex audio band.
Striving to make the best possible cable through sound engineering principles should not be demonized on AVS Forum.
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post #542 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Achieving what? Making cables that can pass RF signals? That has been done at least 75 years ago. What is new in the past 20 years is the silly idea that this makes any difference for baseband audio signals.

.
A bit longer than that!

Back around 1991, the audio magazine called Audio did an expose' on speaker wire. What really got their goat was Kimber Kable claiming their speaker wire did magical things and the "skin effect" specifically. What Kimber did was show scope readings of how their cable was obviously better than regular wire. Audio noted that the scope tests were on 100 KHz square waves, not 20 KHz but 100 KHz! They systematically destoryed Kimber and called their testing methodology fraud--yep, the F word... fraud. Kimber responded with yada, yada, yada and pulled their advertising (of course)

So, using bogus testing dates back to at least 30 years ago and Audio published that Kimber Kable were using fraudulent marketing. No lawsuits--no lawyer would touch that one so the results stood. Granted, since then Audio went belly up and the rest of the audio rags learned from that. Now we get gibber-gabber about speakers with bogus testing--look at the front page and look at the sensitivity testing of "in room". Gee, I'd figure someone would throw a huge red flag of bogus specifications... I refuse to purchase products that use "non-standard" specifications--hopefully they either go broke due to lack of sales or pull their head out and quit offending me by trying to pass off bogus testing as real.

Of course, if you understood how it works--companies spend time and money to ship review sites and magazines gear and they get the reviews. When was the last time you ever had a review that stated something sucked, something did not meet inflated specifications or was out and out fraud? Not hardly! Everything is at least good, even when it is not or the "review" focues on something the gizmo does well and you can forget about actual bench testing or frequency rsponse/polar charts--nobody has time for that!

Back in my youth, my momma told me to "consider the source" and it fits. Everything is either good or great in audio for some reason, nothing is below average and they all claim to give you the "truth". Never mind they do reviews for money, they have to say everything is good at something or they will be forced to purchase things themselves--and advertisers won't pay for them to promote their wares. Consumer Reports does it that way, very expensive way to do it and they don't accept any advertising at all. They are not perfect but at least I know I'm not listening to a muppet or parrot--they also give statistics.

To clear the mobvious marketing and BS fest that is audio--use standards, testing and all that knowledge and engineering gained over decades of research. The Audio Engineering Society has plenty of free information to help you. After all, they are not selling equipment and are involved with setting standards and improving audio from consumer, studio to professional sound.

Here is a video that the true believers won't watch, I don't expect them to. This is for the folks reading this train wreck that actually want to know what is real, what is not and what is pure marketing drivel. They even throw in engineers from Dolby that explain playing Led Zeppelin backwards--now you can "know the words" and impress your friends!

Happy reading and watch out when playing Stairway to Heaven backwards... once you read the words witht eh music placed backwards--it DOES sound like that. The eyes have it! Enjoy!

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post #543 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
Striving to make the best possible cable through sound engineering principles should not be demonized on AVS Forum.
Best possible cable for what? Designing a cable to correct issues that are far beyond being detrimental to the product application is not "sound engineering" It's foolishness.

How about we apply that technology to say high speed networking cables where it matters. Ahh, but they did. Galen even says he borrowed the technology from Belden's networking cable patents. And he also said they use the same precision twisting machines to make Iconoclast that they use for CAT cables.

So Belden is doing what a good engineering firm does. They are applying this technology to a product where it matters. They have wisely chosen not to waste this effort on a product where it makes no difference.

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Again, worthless speculation on your part.
Again what are your thoughts why the product isn't in their catalogs? You don't have an answer for that do you?

You keep saying this is speculation because it doesn't support your agenda. But to everyone here with a technical background, what Belden is doing with Iconoclast, or rather what they are not doing, makes perfect sense. This was a science project a loyal long tenured staff engineer wanted to play with on Belden's dime. Companies do this all the time. But clearly they have no marketing interest in this product. It's been available since 2015 yet has never been a catalog product. And where is it now? Licensed to BJC. Belden will make the stuff when BJC has enough of an order to make a run feasible.

But like I said before, you want to shut down a CAT5/6 line to make a few feet of speaker cable at a $2000 retail cost for some audiophile? Get real!
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post #544 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 10:49 AM
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We’re talking about well built cables with quality connectors and shielding and built to spec for under $100.

Which spec, or set of specifications, are you referring to? A $5 cable can be 'built to spec'.
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post #545 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
A bit longer than that!

Back around 1991, the audio magazine called Audio did an expose' on speaker wire. What really got their goat was Kimber Kable claiming their speaker wire did magical things and the "skin effect" specifically. What Kimber did was show scope readings of how their cable was obviously better than regular wire. Audio noted that the scope tests were on 100 KHz square waves, not 20 KHz but 100 KHz! They systematically destoryed Kimber and called their testing methodology fraud--yep, the F word... fraud. Kimber responded with yada, yada, yada and pulled their advertising (of course)

So, using bogus testing dates back to at least 30 years ago and Audio published that Kimber Kable were using fraudulent marketing. No lawsuits--no lawyer would touch that one so the results stood. Granted, since then Audio went belly up and the rest of the audio rags learned from that. Now we get gibber-gabber about speakers with bogus testing--look at the front page and look at the sensitivity testing of "in room". Gee, I'd figure someone would throw a huge red flag of bogus specifications... I refuse to purchase products that use "non-standard" specifications--hopefully they either go broke due to lack of sales or pull their head out and quit offending me by trying to pass off bogus testing as real.

Of course, if you understood how it works--companies spend time and money to ship review sites and magazines gear and they get the reviews. When was the last time you ever had a review that stated something sucked, something did not meet inflated specifications or was out and out fraud? Not hardly! Everything is at least good, even when it is not or the "review" focues on something the gizmo does well and you can forget about actual bench testing or frequency rsponse/polar charts--nobody has time for that!

Back in my youth, my momma told me to "consider the source" and it fits. Everything is either good or great in audio for some reason, nothing is below average and they all claim to give you the "truth". Never mind they do reviews for money, they have to say everything is good at something or they will be forced to purchase things themselves--and advertisers won't pay for them to promote their wares. Consumer Reports does it that way, very expensive way to do it and they don't accept any advertising at all. They are not perfect but at least I know I'm not listening to a muppet or parrot--they also give statistics.

To clear the mobvious marketing and BS fest that is audio--use standards, testing and all that knowledge and engineering gained over decades of research. The Audio Engineering Society has plenty of free information to help you. After all, they are not selling equipment and are involved with setting standards and improving audio from consumer, studio to professional sound.

Here is a video that the true believers won't watch, I don't expect them to. This is for the folks reading this train wreck that actually want to know what is real, what is not and what is pure marketing drivel. They even throw in engineers from Dolby that explain playing Led Zeppelin backwards--now you can "know the words" and impress your friends!

Happy reading and watch out when playing Stairway to Heaven backwards... once you read the words witht eh music placed backwards--it DOES sound like that. The eyes have it! Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
Unfortunately the high end consumer audio business is too small to warrant government intervention. Imagine if the auto companies pulled this crap.

We have come close though. Didn't the FTC make Monster drop the claim that their RJ11 telephone cables made your modem faster? And I think we came close too with HDMI cables. Like the claims this cable better supports 120hz or 240hz frame rates. The truth is the frame rate never goes above 60hz in the cable. Those high frame rates are up sampled inside the display. Pure fraud claiming a cable can better support that. Then the claims of deeper blacks, richer colors. Pure fraud considering how HDMI works.

Fortunately in this age of the internet there has been enough truth told by "us" to curb the HDMI fraud a bit. I guess we need to work on audiophile USB cables now.
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post #546 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 11:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Unfortunately the high end consumer audio business is too small to warrant government intervention. Imagine if the auto companies pulled this crap.



We have come close though. Didn't the FTC make Monster drop the claim that their RJ11 telephone cables made your modem faster? And I think we came close too with HDMI cables. Like the claims this cable better supports 120hz or 240hz frame rates. The truth is the frame rate never goes above 60hz in the cable. Those high frame rates are up sampled inside the display. Pure fraud claiming a cable can better support that. Then the claims of deeper blacks, richer colors. Pure fraud considering how HDMI works.



Fortunately in this age of the internet there has been enough truth told by "us" to curb the HDMI fraud a bit. I guess we need to work on audiophile USB cables now.
Ok waiting seek for the first critical usb audio review on YouTube.

If he is not into music and audio I won't take notice.

Because of the important issues I thaught you about.
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post #547 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 12:06 PM
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I guess only the engineers that you choose is valid..
Their testing is 100% utterly worthless because it was sighted:

Jump to 4m51s if my link didn't take you there directly.
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post #548 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 12:09 PM
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In a short timeframe I don't believe in an ABX test...
You pick whatever time frame the listener wants: minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, or years.
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post #549 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 12:15 PM
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USB cables still don't carry decoded audio regardless of what people think of human testing or the qualifications of reviewers.
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post #550 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 12:25 PM
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Ok waiting seek for the first critical usb audio review on YouTube.
I'm waiting for the first critical magic crystals review on Youtube, so I guess they must really work, plus look at all the likes the pro crystal videos get! If there was nothing to it then why would so many people thumbs up the video? [1600 likes to 99 dislikes at the time of this posting.]
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post #551 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 12:34 PM
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https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...oughts/262998/
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #552 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 12:37 PM
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Their testing is 100% utterly worthless because it was sighted:

Exactly. Engineers are as susceptible to perception bias as anyone else, because they are humans.
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post #553 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 12:49 PM
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Smarty how are you in frigging going to control the 4 months I need?
Foobar ABX works for 4 months, or more, no problem. You can pause a test, put the computer in sleep mode, go to bed, wake up the next day and recommence the test where you left off, then pause again, this time go on vacation for a week, or three and a half months, and then start back up again when you return. The only thing you can't do is close down Windows completely: you need to use sleep mode at each pause.
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post #554 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 12:53 PM
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Who's controlling it
Your PC. We casually call it a "double blind test" but actually it is sort of an "infinitely blind test" because robots/computers don't have, nor convey, emotion/bias to the test subjects (listeners).
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post #555 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 02:02 PM
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Who change the cables??? YOU?
don't make me laugh.
In my proposed test you would listen to your favorite music file, ripped from a CD by me (or you) using Exact Audio Copy (creating a perfect, bit accurate file just like it appeared on the CD itself) and you listen to it through your best USB cable you think will sound the most different from a freebie USB cable, through whatever audio system you want/have access to.

This, above, is "A" in the Foorbar ABX test.

"B" is my recording of the same file after it has traveled through many stages of (possible) degradation, including a cheapo, freebie USB cable which "colors" the sound according to people who believe they sound different.

Off the top of my head, here are all the degrading stages:


1.
Digital sound file, "A", is played from my laptop's hard drive and exits through a USB port.

2. Digital signal travels through a cheapo, freebie USB cable to my cheapo DAC.

3. Digital signal gets converted to an analog signal with my cheapo ($79.99) DAC [it is actually a combination DAC, ADC, headphone amp, and a stereo XLR mic preamp unit, so I guess the DAC part, by itself, might be $20? ]

4. The analog signal travels out of the DAC through a 6ft (~2 meters) $1 RCA stereo wire.

5. The signal arrives at the analog input of the same $79.99 combo unit so it can be re-digitized by the unit's ADC [analog to digital converter]

6.
The now digital signal travels back to the laptop through the exact same freebie USB cable [i.e. the cable is being used heavily during the test since it is simultaneously sending and receiving data, in both directions]

7.
The raw signal is recorded on my computer's hard drive by me pressing "start recording" and and "stop recording", by hand, and unfortunately humans like me have delay times in our response when we hit buttons [actually clicking a mouse button], plus DACs and ADCs have latency, so the recording of the song will need to have some silence before the music starts and some silence after the music ends, acting as safety buffers, so I don't miss any of the song.

8. The raw signal recording is retrieved from my hard drive in Audacity [DAW] editing software and the silent beginning buffer and silent ending buffer parts are cut off, precisely, so the newly created file will play in sync with the original, untouched file, "A", and the level of the new file is verified/corrected to be the same as the master source file, "A".

This new file created is "B" in the Foobar ABX test and if any of the above eight steps degrades the sound, even just a little, this will make it sound ever so slightly different (or perhaps very different) than file "A", the completely untouched master file. I contend "B" will not sound different than "A".

The two files are uploaded to Dropbox, a cloud based storage company, so you can download them for the test at your leisure. You can practice before the test by listening to the two files by whatever means you want and for however long you want. You can take however long you want to perform the test, too.

The entire creation of the test files will be filmed by me with a video camera to verify the authenticity of the files, proving they are as I claim. I will include their SHA-1 digital fingerprints for authentication purposes so you can verify the files I upload to Dropbox are indeed the ones I show in the video.

You can verify the digital fingerprint identity of the SHA-1 status of the files I upload by checking them with a verification program such as the free one here, or whichever one you prefer.

Last edited by m. zillch; 08-09-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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post #556 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
In my proposed test you would listen to your favorite music file, ripped from a CD by me (or you) using Exact Audio Copy (creating a perfect, bit accurate file just like it appeared on the CD itself) and you listen to it through your best USB cable you think will sound the most different from a freebie USB cable, through whatever audio system you want/have access to.

This, above, is "A" in the Foorbar ABX test.

"B" is my recording of the same file after it has traveled through many stages of (possible) degradation, including a cheapo, freebie USB cable which "colors" the sound according to people who believe they sound different.

Off the top of my head, here are all the degrading stages:


1.
Digital sound file, "A", is played from my laptop's hard drive and exits through a USB port.

2. Digital signal travels through a cheapo, freebie USB cable to my cheapo DAC.

3. Digital signal gets converted to an analog signal with my cheapo ($79.99) DAC [it is actually a combination DAC, ADC, headphone amp, and a stereo XLR mic preamp unit, so I guess the DAC part, by itself, might be $20? ]

4. The analog signal travels out of the DAC through a 6ft (~2 meters) $1 RCA stereo wire.

5. The signal arrives at the analog input of the same $79.99 combo unit so it can be re-digitized by the unit's ADC [analog to digital converter]

6.
The now digital signal travels back to the laptop through the exact same freebie USB cable [i.e. the cable is being used heavily during the test since it is simultaneously sending and receiving data, in both directions]

7.
The raw signal is recorded on my computer's hard drive by me pressing "start recording" and and "stop recording", by hand, and unfortunately humans like me have delay times in our response when we hit buttons [actually clicking a mouse button], plus DACs and ADCs have latency, so the recording of the song will need to have some silence before the music starts and some silence after the music ends, acting as safety buffers, so I don't miss any of the song.

8. The raw signal recording is retrieved from my hard drive in Audacity [DAW] editing software and the silent beginning buffer and silent ending buffer parts are cut off, precisely, so the newly created file will play in sync with the original, untouched file, "A", and the level of the new file is verified/corrected to be the same as the master source file, "A".

This new file created is "B" in the Foobar ABX test and if any of the above eight steps degrades the sound, even just a little, this will make it sound ever so slightly different (or perhaps very different) than file "A", the completely untouched master file. I contend "B" will not sound different than "A".

The two files are uploaded to Dropbox, a cloud based storage company, so you can download them for the test at your leisure. You can practice before the test by listening to the two files by whatever means you want and for however long you want. You can take however long you want to perform the test, too.

The entire creation of the test files will be filmed by me with a video camera to verify the authenticity of the files, proving they are as I claim. I will include their SHA-1 digital fingerprints for authentication purposes so you can verify the files I upload to Dropbox are indeed the ones I show in the video.

You can verify the digital fingerprint identity of the SHA-1 status of the files I upload by checking them with a verification program such as the free one here, or whichever one you prefer.
Out of curiosity, which $80 DAC are you using? for that price it sounds like the Monoprice DAC/headphone amp I have.

Vinyl, tape, digital... I don't care as long as I can listen to my music...
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post #557 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 03:58 PM
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Out of curiosity, which $80 DAC are you using? for that price it sounds like the Monoprice DAC/headphone amp I have.
The company which makes it, Behringer, refers to it as a "USB interface" because it is a lot more than just a DAC. As I mentioned it is actually four products in one box, so from my perspective each part alone is sort of like a $20 product, (but I guess that is debatable).

1. Stereo XLR "Midas" mic preamps with +48V phantom power option, independent input level controls, selectable imp. line/instrument setting for use with electric guitars, etc., and optional ~20 dB pads.
2. Headphone amp with independent level compared to the main out's variable level
3. DAC
4. ADC

I paid $79.99 for it on Amazon with free shipping, which as you see at camelcamelcamel was its going rate for a long time, but it looks like it would be hard to find it at that price today, at least from Amazon.

It comes with a free USB cable I'd use.

It has quirks but I can live with them, e.g. some of the pots got "scratchy" after a year or so, but only while rotating.
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
The company which makes it, Behringer, refers to it as a "USB interface" because it is a lot more than just a DAC. As I mentioned it is actually four products in one box, so from my perspective each part alone is sort of like a $20 product, (but I guess that is debatable).

1. Stereo XLR "Midas" mic preamps with +48V phantom power option, independent input level controls, selectable imp. line/instrument setting for use with electric guitars, etc., and optional ~20 dB pads.
2. Headphone amp with independent level compared to the main out's variable level
3. DAC
4. ADC

I paid $79.99 for it on Amazon with free shipping, which as you see at camelcamelcamel was its going rate for a long time, but it looks like it would be hard to find it at that price today, at least from Amazon.

It comes with a free USB cable I'd use.

It has quirks but I can live with them, e.g. some of the pots got "scratchy" after a year or so, but only while rotating.
Just imagine how much more airy, the separation, and the toe curling clarity you'd get if only you used a $7 USB cable... |
I'm sure you are missing out!

I'll check that out as it looks like an interesting product.
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Vinyl, tape, digital... I don't care as long as I can listen to my music...
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post #559 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 06:19 PM
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Ok I see it takes a Scientist or engineer to understand music and Audio quality..

Got two electro engineers/IT and computer for you here, raving about difference in digital cables....
They're not raving about cables. They're just raving, period.

Their site provides subjectivist 'reviews'. They offer no measurements of any type or a standardized testing suite of equipment or a testing methodology that could be replicated by others to validate their work. They don't even show the things they test hooked up to anything. Just endless pictures of the product being reviewed and some tables of manufacturer specs.

Adjective filled sentences—slightly cooler, toasty presentation, thicker sound—are not the work of engineers or scientists. They are the work of charlatans who realize that they can enrich themselves with little-to-no effort by playing on the emotions and ignorance of those who read their reviews or watch their videos. Their 'work' is absolute drek.

If you are going to continue to post links to videos, at least try to post something that is entertaining as this is getting very tedious.
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post #560 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 06:49 PM
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Ok that's not science...

Maybe Wannabe science.
More like pathological science.

I get the distinct impression that you have no concept of what science or the scientific method is:

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Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post
What you mean??? The sky is black, the universe.. the blue is just an illusion of the atmosphere, ocean and sun..
You don't even understand the difference between illusion and phenomenon. If ever there was a chance to have a Woody Allen moment, this would be it. Instead of Marshall McLuhan, it would be John William Strutt, Gustav Adolf Feodor Wilhelm Ludwig Mie, Chandrashekhara Venkata Raman, and James Clerk Maxwell.
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post #561 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 07:09 PM
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They don't even show the things they test hooked up to anything.
Good observation.
What they do post however, when you visit their About page, trying to learn more about their competence and expertise, is an image taken at a trade show exhibit, AXPONA I believe, showing expensive gear I bet they've never even laid their hands on. But to a casual, naive visitor examining their site they'll be fooled into thinking, "Wow, look at what high end gear they use to evaluate their stuff like the USB cable I'm researching."
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post #562 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Good observation.
What they do post however is an image taken at a trade show, AXPONA I believe, showing expensive gear I bet they've never even laid their hands on. But to a casual, naive visitor examining their site they'll be fooled into thinking, "Wow, look at what high end gear they use to evaluate their stuff like the USB cable I'm researching."
With the law:

Possession is nine tenths.

With audio:

Perception is nine tenths.
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post #563 of 570 Old 08-09-2019, 10:00 PM
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They're not raving about cables. They're just raving, period.
I've barely heard anything about these people until this thread so I randomly went to see what I could find. The first thing was a review of AC power cords, one said to be $6K. The level of their technical incompetence for the test is so overwhelming I can't believe they are electrical engineers with degrees from an actual accredited school. From just a few seconds of exposure to this video we learn that their understanding of recording audio for critical evaluation [sighted, of course, and I doubt they even know what "level matched" means] is "You hold a cellphone or other mic up to the speakers and press the record button". No, I'm not exaggerating:


This test is incompetent because:

A. The recording position is tremendously off from the sweet spot of a standard equilateral triangular setup, along the lines of guidelines from Dolby, THX, ITU, SMPTE, etc...
B. The camera position, and therefor mic?, varies slightly from one part of the video test to the next and mic location will alter the room sound.
C. The contribution from the room acoustics (and speaker distortions) is so overwhelming it is impossible to get any sense of the "AC power cords" sound. [Psst: there isn't any.]
D. The microphone is mono. [I suspect we are also hearing an AGC circuit too but at least that would be equally true for all parts of the test.] There is likely compression going on.
E. We are expected to hear the difference even with Youtube compression.

They think using a Hi-re$ song for this matters? LOL.

Looks to my eye like the desktop amp is a PS Audio Sprout which has a pathetic frequency response, one of the least accurate amp responses I have ever seen:

https://www.stereophile.com/images/515PSASfig01.jpg

Would they even know how to read a frequency response graph though? I have no idea.
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post #564 of 570 Old 08-10-2019, 09:43 AM
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.... I can't believe they are electrical engineers with degrees from an actual accredited school.
It's obvious they are not, probably a couple of IT help desk guys. Where is their data? What was their test procedure?
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Last edited by Glimmie; 08-10-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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post #565 of 570 Old 08-10-2019, 10:20 AM
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Maybe they got their EE degrees by cutting them out of the back of a breakfast cereal box?
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post #566 of 570 Old 08-10-2019, 10:25 AM
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YouTube bad...
AVS good.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ROBM5_1QjHsqJa



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #567 of 570 Old 08-11-2019, 03:46 AM
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I wonder if the medical community should be screening men for susceptibility to audio woo after age 40. Prevention is key.
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post #568 of 570 Old 08-11-2019, 06:07 AM
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I wonder if the medical community should be screening men for susceptibility to audio woo after age 40. Prevention is key.
Digitally of course
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post #569 of 570 Old 08-11-2019, 06:17 AM
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There's nothing better than a "digital" exam.
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #570 of 570 Old 08-11-2019, 10:28 AM
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OUCH!
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