Audioquest Forest USB VS Wireworld Starlight 8 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 570 Old 07-12-2019, 10:29 AM
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RME
Rolling My Eyes? Reasonable Maximum Exposure?

Some DACs really do have problems with USB. My Teac UD-301 was the most unreliable across multiple setups. I've tried different drivers, different buffering settings, etc.
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post #32 of 570 Old 07-12-2019, 10:31 AM
 
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I believe even cheaper Blue jeans cables has proven in test with equipments that cheapo digital cables from websites and wall Mart fails the specs that USB demands..

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post #33 of 570 Old 07-12-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by NewAger View Post
Rolling My Eyes? Reasonable Maximum Exposure?

Some DACs really do have problems with USB. My Teac UD-301 was the most unreliable across multiple setups. I've tried different drivers, different buffering settings, etc.
https://rme-audio.de/
if you need "rock solid performance" then this brand might really interest you, their stuff is not cheap though.

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post #34 of 570 Old 07-12-2019, 10:50 AM
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https://rme-audio.de/
if you need "rock solid performance" then this brand might really interest you, their stuff is not cheap though.
Ah. They have some interesting special-purpose gear there.
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post #35 of 570 Old 07-12-2019, 10:57 AM
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Which ones alter the sound to open soundstages, better impact with lows, less shrilly highs and lift veils?
I'm actually seeking one where even my wife can tell the difference.
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post #36 of 570 Old 07-12-2019, 11:12 AM
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Which ones alter the sound to open soundstages, better impact with lows, less shrilly highs and lift veils?
I'm actually seeking one where even my wife can tell the difference.
Your wife would definitely be able to tell if your USB DAC occasionally produced loud noise because of poor engineering.

You can get a perfectly reliable USB DAC for cheap without having to rely on pro audio solutions, though. I've been using USB on an SMSL SU-8 with no problems at all. Best DAC I've owned.
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post #37 of 570 Old 07-30-2019, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I came back to fess up. The USB cord that sounded better than those out of the box was actually just an Amazon basic! Before you jump to any conclusions, this still changes my mind as to whether there is such a thing as "burn in". This $10 cable bested one cable costing 10 times more and another costing 20 times more. That just shouldn't happen, or those two different companies - Audioquest and Wireworld, wouldn't still be in business. There has to be something to their improving over time.



Explanation - I had forgotten that I had moved the Forest to my CD player a long time ago. This gave the existing USB cord a long time to do whatever it did in my system and for my ears to adjust.. I'm sure part of this is my ears adapting to the positive points of the cable. That I could not hear some of those benefits with the new cable is proof to me that these cables sound different, at least until they have a chance to settle in. This is the opposite of expectation bias as I was actually disappointed in brand name cables that I expected to sound at least the same and certainly not worse.



I have read that USB cords that separate the ground from the rest of the cord tend to sound better than those that do not. I have also read that though the cables send 0's and 1's, these are sent in the analogue methodology which can be effected.


So I returned the other cables and sprung for the fairly expensive Curious cable ($349) that I did like right out of the box. They say it can take 100s of hours to "burn in" so I bought an inexpensive USB DAC from China ($20) and am streaming the chord constantly. If the sound gets better it will be gravy as far as I am concerned.



Sorry for the confusion but in this case it kind of turned into a minor blind test for me which has changed my view on whether cables can sound different. I'm certain that with better equipment, in a room you are used to listening in, minor differences can be heard. And it is that search for more detail that keeps this hobby so much fun for me.
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post #38 of 570 Old 07-30-2019, 02:27 PM
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Great news. Enjoy Comic "Con".
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post #39 of 570 Old 07-30-2019, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhawk View Post
There has to be something to their improving over time.


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Originally Posted by hhawk View Post
I'm certain that with better equipment, in a room you are used to listening in, minor differences can be heard. And it is that search for more detail that keeps this hobby so much fun for me.
That's the heart of it. Without the aspect of cables potentially imparting their own sonic character, this hobby would be a little (or maybe even a lot) less interesting for you.
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post #40 of 570 Old 07-30-2019, 08:01 PM
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Bought a Forest USB cable a couple weeks ago because it looked nice and was the right length. Was replacing a cheap off brand cable that came with an external hard drive I bought 10 years ago. Plugged it in and didn't think any of it, its only transmitting data anyways. Over the next week or so I was noticing that my system sounded a little harsh and sibilant. Like the highs were tilted up and the balance thrown off. Really was pissing me off because I don't have any sort of tone controls, dsp, or eq. Figured what the hell and plugged in the super cheap cable again and everything went back to being neutral. Was able to do an A-B comparison with the two cables and was easily able to tell an audible difference between the two. I don't have very good hearing either, and I'm running a very high end dac that I'm sure can handle whatever type of signal I throw at it, so it's not that. I've taken my share of electronics courses, but I'm not going to pretend to understand how a data cable can have a sonic signature, I just know I happen to need the cheap cable to mellow out a potentially bright setup. Got me thinking of all times I've read where someone says that cables make a difference and a dozen people come sprinting in to tell them they're wrong. I was never one of those people who made snide comments on the internet when someone mentions something labeled as snake oil, but I secretly agreed with them. This isn't the first time being surprised when changing out cables either. XLR, RCA, and speaker cables have all sounded different on my reference setup, for better or worse, and I never thought much about it. I just go with what I think sounds good. But a freaking USB cable!?! Sure has been a humbling last couple weeks for me with this hobby.

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post #41 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
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I have read that USB cords that separate the ground from the rest of the cord tend to sound better than those that do not. I have also read that though the cables send 0's and 1's, these are sent in the analogue methodology which can be effected.
If you are genuinely curious about all aspects of USB and its data transmission, try asking one of the main developers at Intel who helped create the interface. That will give you an unbiased and maybe even enlightening answer as to what you are hearing without having forum users tell you. Ajay Bhatt can't be too difficult to reach.
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post #42 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NewAger View Post
If you are genuinely curious about all aspects of USB and its data transmission, try asking one of the main developers at Intel who helped create the interface. That will give you an unbiased and maybe even enlightening answer as to what you are hearing without having forum users tell you. Ajay Bhatt can't be too difficult to reach.

Pretty poor troll attempt after I have given a whole list of the differences I have heard.

Right up there with all digital products sound the same - more nonsense.

All you need to hear the differences are a good audio system.
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post #43 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 06:21 AM
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My audioquest forest USB cable started getting flaky one day after I moved my streamer, now I was a 8 dollar 6" startech cable. Cant say I notice any difference between them in sound.

System: Emotiva XSP-1, Lexicon 225(Bryston 4B-ST with a new face), Revel M126be, SVS SB2000, Cambridge DACMAGIC 100, JVC XL-Z1050TN, Rega RP6, Vincent PHO-8. A bunch of monster power conditioning junk V: Samsung NU8000, Nvidia Shield TV
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post #44 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 06:34 AM
 
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Warranty?

The forest isn't expensive, but enough that you could get a new, sell it and buy your no brand no spec 8$ Vietnam cable.

That would make your answer more believable

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post #45 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 06:41 AM
 
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I always hear this posts... My cinnamon broke so I bought a 2 dollar cable....

But wait??? What about the warranty???

People always say we pay to much for a 20-60$ bucks cables...

But what about the warranty??? And why don't the coveteus people who won't use more than 8$ on a buy and throw use the warranty on a 60$ cable?

Maybe they are cought in the buy and throw game?

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post #46 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 06:55 AM
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Pretty poor troll attempt...

All you need to hear the differences are a good audio system.
Kettles and pots.
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post #47 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 07:59 AM
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Kettles and pots.
Audioquest does sell a Mocha digital cable, you know? But your system has to be precisely $25,000 and up to hear the difference.
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post #48 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 08:54 AM
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USB doesn't carry an audio signal, it carries a series of packets that are converted into audio at the endpoint. If there was a transmission problem that the error correction was unable to account for (which is possible) the resulting change at the output end would absolutely not be subtle musical properties like soundstage, imaging or bass impact. Problems with digital audio transmission sound like loud pops, stuttering, dropouts and garbled full volume distortion. If you are not experiencing these your USB cable is working properly and carrying a perfect signal. In practice USB 2 or more has plenty of bandwidth for 2 channel audio and incidental packet transmission problems can be resolved in plenty of time at the buffer stage before it gets to the decoder.
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post #49 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 09:25 AM
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"This isn't the first time being surprised when changing out cables either. XLR, RCA, and speaker cables have all sounded different on my reference setup..."

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Save your money.
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post #50 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 11:38 AM
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USB doesn't carry an audio signal, it carries a series of packets that are converted into audio at the endpoint. If there was a transmission problem that the error correction was unable to account for (which is possible) the resulting change at the output end would absolutely not be subtle musical properties like soundstage, imaging or bass impact. Problems with digital audio transmission sound like loud pops, stuttering, dropouts and garbled full volume distortion. If you are not experiencing these your USB cable is working properly and carrying a perfect signal. In practice USB 2 or more has plenty of bandwidth for 2 channel audio and incidental packet transmission problems can be resolved in plenty of time at the buffer stage before it gets to the decoder.
More truthful nonsense. Stop being honest.
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post #51 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 12:07 PM
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More truthful nonsense. Stop being honest.
The difference between packet data and bitstream can be kind of confusing but I think it's important to understanding digital audio. Sometimes I feel like people want it to be as complex and tweakable as analog, mostly to sell products that "solve" problems that don't exist to customers who are used to that being the case. I remember way back when I started reading this site people were arguing over which brand of CD-Rs sounded best, the more things change the more they stay the same I guess.
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post #52 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 12:50 PM
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Audioquest does sell a Mocha digital cable, you know? But your system has to be precisely $25,000 and up to hear the difference.
Thanks for the cost information... but you left out a very important detail. How much must my system weigh in order to hear the difference?

Vinyl, tape, digital... I don't care as long as I can listen to my music...
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post #53 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 01:15 PM
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... but you left out a very important detail. ...to hear the difference?
You (or a friend/spouse) also must have "golden ears".
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post #54 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 01:36 PM
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All properly functioning, in spec, normal distance USB cables sound the same to all people, with all music, through all gear. Also USB cables, like all other audio system cables, do not "burn in" although they may corrode after years of use which can alter performance.

People with ground loop problems [and they may not realize they have one] may experience differences in noise levels whenever they alter the resistance of any one of the multiple ground loop paths, i.e. potentials, which are conflicting with one another, so if they effectively swap the ground resistance (shield) of one run of USB with a different USB run (or simply swap in a different length USB even though it is the same brand/model) they may experience a change in the nature or level of the ground loop noise which they may incorrectly attribute to "USB cables sound different".
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post #55 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 01:42 PM
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As Jackie Gleason said, " And away we go!!"
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post #56 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 01:46 PM
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You (or a friend/spouse) also must have "golden ears".
I opted to save some coin and went with silver ears. Does that mean I'm SOL?

Vinyl, tape, digital... I don't care as long as I can listen to my music...
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No... look for a silk purse.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #58 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 02:40 PM
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C/NET:

"It seems the cable manufacturers, finding that you, dear readers, are too smart to buy their mumbo-jumbo about HDMI cables, have moved on to fleecing audiophiles on USB cables. Yep, USB cables. There are even reviews about how, after upgrading to a $1,000-plus USB cable, the sound on their USB Digital Audio Converter (DAC) "came alive" or something. Ahhh, expectation bias.

I'm also including Lightning because they're effectively just USB cables, with a fancy proprietary Apple nubbin at the end.

As far as the data going across it, USB is also a dumb tube. It won't improve video or audio quality.

The exception is with USB cables used to charge devices. Not all USB cables can charge devices at the same rate. I've actually found this, anecdotally, and Wirecutter did some extensive testing and found the same thing.

Among different USB cables, some will allow more current to make it from the charger to the device. Better-made cables can pass more amps (a measure of electric current) than poorly made cables. So if you want to charge your devices as fast as your charger and device allow, make sure you get a decent USB cable. What's decent? That Wirecutter test liked a $1.23 Monoprice cable best.

Over time, power throughput can wane. If you crumple up your cables, the minuscule wires inside can get damaged, reducing current flow. I've had some cheap one that lasted, and I've had some expensive ones that didn't. Keep in mind, I'm a digital nomad, so my cables probably get more abuse than most.

If there's something wrong with your USB cable, or you're trying to pass more data than that cable can handle, you can get dropouts or pops in the audio when using a USB DAC. A different, working, cheap cable is all you need.

But, to repeat: an expensive USB cable isn't going to make your audio sound better, your pictures look better, or your printouts look sharper."

[bold text emphasis mine]
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About the author of the C/NET article I quoted above

"Short Bio: Geoffrey Morrison is a writer/photographer for CNET, Forbes, and The New York Times. He also the Editor-at-large for The Wirecutter. He has written for Sound&Vision magazine, Home Theater magazine, and was the Editor in Chief of Home Entertainment magazine. He is NIST and ISF trained, and has a degree in Television/Radio from Ithaca College.
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post #60 of 570 Old 07-31-2019, 03:36 PM
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C/NET:

"It seems the cable manufacturers, finding that you, dear readers, are too smart to buy their mumbo-jumbo about HDMI cables, have moved on to fleecing audiophiles on USB cables. Yep, USB cables. There are even reviews about how, after upgrading to a $1,000-plus USB cable, the sound on their USB Digital Audio Converter (DAC) "came alive" or something. Ahhh, expectation bias.

I'm also including Lightning because they're effectively just USB cables, with a fancy proprietary Apple nubbin at the end.

As far as the data going across it, USB is also a dumb tube. It won't improve video or audio quality.

The exception is with USB cables used to charge devices. Not all USB cables can charge devices at the same rate. I've actually found this, anecdotally, and Wirecutter did some extensive testing and found the same thing.

Among different USB cables, some will allow more current to make it from the charger to the device. Better-made cables can pass more amps (a measure of electric current) than poorly made cables. So if you want to charge your devices as fast as your charger and device allow, make sure you get a decent USB cable. What's decent? That Wirecutter test liked a $1.23 Monoprice cable best.

Over time, power throughput can wane. If you crumple up your cables, the minuscule wires inside can get damaged, reducing current flow. I've had some cheap one that lasted, and I've had some expensive ones that didn't. Keep in mind, I'm a digital nomad, so my cables probably get more abuse than most.

If there's something wrong with your USB cable, or you're trying to pass more data than that cable can handle, you can get dropouts or pops in the audio when using a USB DAC. A different, working, cheap cable is all you need.

But, to repeat: an expensive USB cable isn't going to make your audio sound better, your pictures look better, or your printouts look sharper."

[bold text emphasis mine]
Yeah, but, but, but, you really can hear the difference in a $25,000.00 system!
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Save your money.
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