Understanding DAC - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
Well they are using junky amps
Also planned obsolescence built-in in a form of various "apps" "stream services" and things like that.
Obviously they know that you'd have to change your avr in a short time, unlike let's say bryston amplifier that you can use for 20-30 years.
So they can afford to charge less, because it is actually more long-term.
Planned obsolescence pisses me off. I would hope to not have to replace a decent AVR like a Yamaha Rx-A780 for a long time, My Rotel tuner/preamp/amp served me well for close to 25 1/2 years. If the Yamaha lasted that long it just might outlive me. Perfect.
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post #152 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 09:51 AM
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I am liking more and more the idea of an AVR starting as a 2 ch unit, with wifi, Airplay, streaming, and having convenience of Hdmi inputs and always with the option of expanding to surround sound except I would need a separate amp for Zone 2 to feed my wired speaker pairs in other rooms. So anyone with suggestions on a decent amp? Something like the Russound P75 $120, maybe a bit more power?
A lot of surround receivers allow you to use 2 of the surround channels to power zone 2 speakers, might be a good solution for you. There's also the aforementioned Onkyo 8270 or Denon 800H which both have 2 sets of speaker outputs.

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post #153 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 09:57 AM
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Planned obsolescence pisses me off.
I'm confused why multi-channel receivers with apps and streaming features [which you aren't forced to use if you don't want them] stop working eventually whereas supposedly the stereo units with apps and streaming services don't stop working. Can anyone explain this to me?
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post #154 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 10:20 AM
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A lot of surround receivers allow you to use 2 of the surround channels to power zone 2 speakers, might be a good solution for you.
Plus this nice option you speak of often allows a different source's sound in the secondary zone simultaneously to the main room and at a variable volume level. [e.g., quiet background music in the kitchen while the main room is blasting out a movie] because it uses dedicated amps for the secondary zone.

With stereo units you may have an option for a secondary room with "Speakers B" binding posts on the back however they are locked to being from the same sound source and you don't have variable volume control over the two rooms. You are forced to find some volume setting which (hopefully) accommodates both rooms even if the rooms differ greatly in size, speaker efficiency, seated distance, and your personal needs. Also since you are taxing one pair of amp channels with a heavy load, two sets of speakers instead of one, their effective power is cut in half for each room, i.e. your "100 w/ch x 2" receiver functions like a "50 w/ch x 2" amp for each room.
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post #155 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
Well they are using junky amps
That's an overgeneralization and an audiophile myth.
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post #156 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
That's an overgeneralization and an audiophile myth.
So show me the one that measures really well including good power capabilites?
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post #157 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
So show me the one that measures really well including good power capabilites?
Show me a review of any stereo receiver with measurement written in 2019 we can compare it to, first. [i.e., I don't think they exist.]

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post #158 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
So show me the one that measures really well including good power capabilites?
Show me a review of any stereo receiver with measurement written in 2019.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...x303-avr.7503/

Well, you turn to show me a good one. The ones that are on that "economy of scale" thing.

Every part of this particular specimen is horrendous.
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post #159 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 12:13 PM
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That's a 9 channel receiver, not stereo.

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post #160 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aats View Post
So show me ?
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Show me a review
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
Well, you turn to show me a good one.



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post #161 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 12:44 PM
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I find it rather telling that when it comes to his own home, this high end audio dealer selling gear costing 10's of thousands of dollars at his store [and he can get a good price break on the brands he sells], he actually buys multi-channel AVRs off Amazon, not gear from his vendors, for his own stereo use in his living room:

"I needed a replacement for my current Pioneer Elite AVR that is connected to our living room TV . . .

My application is stereo and that is how I tested this AVR."

Things that make you go hmm. . . . .

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post #162 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I find it rather telling that when it comes to his own home, this high end audio dealer selling gear costing 10's of thousands of dollars at his store [and he can get a good price break on the brands he sells], he actually buys multi-channel AVRs off Amazon, not gear from his vendors, for his own stereo use in his living room:

"I needed a replacement for my current Pioneer Elite AVR that is connected to our living room TV . . .

My application is stereo and that is how I tested this AVR."

Things that make you go hmm. . . . .
"My problem is that I want an efficient and reliable AVR that doesn't decide to shut down by itself. And a DAC that doesn't go into saturation early, showing even small amount of design verification was not performed."
"Needless to say, I can't recommend the Pioneer VSX-LX303 Elite AVR for audiophile use either as an amplifier, a DAC or combination."


On the other hand with your approach to how listening equipment should be operated
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Your Yamaha (I'm 99% sure) has thermal overload protection circuits and will click off and enter into protection mode if you over do it. Let it cool for an hour and you're back up and running!
I guess that would be fine so I can see why you don't mind such equipment.

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post #163 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 01:00 PM
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But why would he even consider multi-channel AVRs in the first place, since he only needs stereo, if they are "bad"? [And apparently he had been using one at that location without issue or complaint until its HDMI format became obsolete for the newer generation of TVs which need more than 1080P].

Maybe it's because he knows good ones are perfectly adequate but he's having trouble finding one for $369.

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post #164 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 01:04 PM
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By the way here is his system that is found in his profile:

Equipment:
  • Mark Levinson amplifiers and DAC.
  • Revel Salon 2 Speakers
  • Berkeley Alpha USB->AES/EBU converter
  • Windows 10, silent, custom PC music server
  • Roon Music Management
  • Tidal Music Streaming
Can't see an receiver here, but a quite expensive ML amplification (does not know a model, but ML amps are not cheap regardless of model).
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post #165 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
By the way here is his system that is found in his profile:

Equipment:
  • Mark Levinson amplifiers and DAC.
  • Revel Salon 2 Speakers
  • Berkeley Alpha USB->AES/EBU converter
  • Windows 10, silent, custom PC music server
  • Roon Music Management
  • Tidal Music Streaming
Can't see an receiver here, but a quite expensive ML amplification (does not know a model, but ML amps are not cheap regardless of model).
All gear he sells, but as for what runs his living room back home. . . .
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post #166 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 01:29 PM
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"I plan to hook it up to our living room TV system and listen. Maybe in real use the thermal cut-out doesn't occur. If so, I might keep it. "

So it would seem the performance is good enough for him as long as it doesn't over heat in his application.
---

He also foolishly thinks he measured it's DAC. He never measured it, my friends. He measured what happens to its sound after it has passed through the additional distortions and noises added by the secondary [read: budget level] preamp stage used for the unit's zone outs, usually lower quality circuits than main preamp outs, by the way, not that this introductory unit has any main preamp outs:

"DAC Audio Measurements
There is no line output so I resorted to using Zone 2 output to test the DAC."
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post #167 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 01:34 PM
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It's garbage anyway. Note that this is on resistor, not on a real load.

But that's 9 channels for 400$ so it's kinda expected.
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post #168 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 02:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I find it rather telling that when it comes to his own home, this high end audio dealer selling gear costing 10's of thousands of dollars at his store [and he can get a good price break on the brands he sells], he actually buys multi-channel AVRs off Amazon, not gear from his vendors, for his own stereo use in his living room:

"I needed a replacement for my current Pioneer Elite AVR that is connected to our living room TV . . .

My application is stereo and that is how I tested this AVR."

Things that make you go hmm. . . . .
I believe he has a listening room where the Hifi gear goes, and another room for watching TV.

I have the same situation. I use an AVR for our living room setup (Pioneer SC-37) and hifi gear in my listening room. I'm not that critical of how the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse is sounding down in the living room. I'm very critical of how my music sounds in my listening room, and I've compared how an AVR does in that situation to my current electronics (the AVR gets embarrassed).

I don't sell any gear or have any skin in the game, just my honest opinion.
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post #169 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 02:15 PM
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I believe he has a listening room where the Hifi gear goes, and another room for watching TV.
And he's forced to use low quality/introductory gear for his living room? Both rooms can't have good stuff?
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post #170 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 02:25 PM
 
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"I plan to hook it up to our living room TV system and listen. Maybe in real use the thermal cut-out doesn't occur. If so, I might keep it. "

So it would seem the performance is good enough for him as long as it doesn't over heat in his application.
---

He also foolishly thinks he measured it's DAC. He never measured it, my friends. He measured what happens to its sound after it has passed through the additional distortions and noises added by the secondary [read: budget level] preamp stage used for the unit's zone outs, usually lower quality circuits than main preamp outs, by the way, not that this introductory unit has any main preamp outs:

"DAC Audio Measurements
There is no line output so I resorted to using Zone 2 output to test the DAC."
Is this the grand "GOTCHA" moment you've been storing up in an attempt to discredit the horrendous measurements of the AVR's he's tested?

If so, color me unimpressed.
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And he's forced to use low quality/introductory gear for his living room? Both rooms can't have good stuff?
Of course not. When audio quality is a low priority, you use an AVR and save money. At least that's what I did.
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post #172 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 02:37 PM
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OP, is this for either a living room or at least a room with a TV? Because apparently the performance of multi-channel AVRs in stereo mode suddenly then becomes perfectly acceptable, arguably the way to go, and no longer a "steaming pile of crap" as I believe some put it.

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OP, is this for either a living room or at least a room with a TV? Because apparently the performance of multi-channel AVRs in stereo mode suddenly then becomes perfectly acceptable, the way to go, and no longer a "steaming pile of crap" as I believe some put it.
They’re still crap, but the bar they have to clear is “sounds better than the TV’s built in speaker”.
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post #174 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 03:19 PM
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One thing that confuses me about the perennial "AVRs have junky amps" argument is it's not like $300 stereo receivers have top notch power either. The Yamaha N303 lists 0.2% THD at 100 watts/8 ohms compared to 0.09% THD at 70 watts/8 ohms for a cheaper Yamaha surround receiver like the VX-385. The stereo one has more power but that extra 30 watts will get you what, 1-2 more dB of max volume? I know the internal construction of the stereo receiver is probably simpler which I think some people value as being "cleaner" but at the bottom of the market there's not a huge price/performance advantage for stereo. It definitely scales with price, though: the difference between a $1500 stereo amp vs. an AVR is significant, e.g. Cambridge Azure 851 120W at 0.01% vs. 105W at 0.08% in a Marantz 6014.
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post #175 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 03:46 PM
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The Yamaha N303 lists 0.2% THD at 100 watts/8 ohms compared to 0.09% THD at 70 watts/8 ohms for a cheaper Yamaha surround receiver like the VX-385.
In the receiver wars the manufacturers have done focus groups to find out what average consumers want. High on their list is "100 watts or more" so the makers will fight tooth and nail to be able to publish that spec, of course as inexpensively as they can, and if this means using an unusually high distortion value like .2% to get there, they will. Other tricks they might use is to rate the output when driving only a single speaker, rather than two or more, using a single frequency of say 1kHz rather than the full bandwidth, 20-20kHz, etc..

As long as the consumer sees that magic number, "100" on the Best Buy bullet points, they are happy. Also keep in mind that although some vendors use these "cheats" to get to 100, it may actually be an outstandingly fine amp if measured conservatively but more realistically at say only 70 or 80 watts output level, but they don't care about that for ads. For ads they care about only one thing: "100".
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"When audio quality is a low priority, you use an AVR and save money. At least that's what I did."

When audio quality sounds as good with an AVR as expensive audiophile boutique brands, you use an AVR and save money. At least that's what I did.

I learned.
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post #177 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 04:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
"When audio quality is a low priority, you use an AVR and save money. At least that's what I did."

When audio quality sounds as good with an AVR as expensive audiophile boutique brands, you use an AVR and save money. At least that's what I did.

I learned.
You must be in the subjectivist camp after all, because the measurements suggest these AVR’s are on the bottom of the totem pole of performance and shipped with inadequate heat sinks in the case of the Pioneer.

What audiophile boutique brand sounded worse than your AVR?
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post #178 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 04:48 PM
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. . . the measurements suggest these AVR’s are on the bottom of the totem pole of performance
. . . um, when one ridiculously compares them against DACs, as that reviewer with an agenda did, rather than fairly against other AVRs, stereo receivers, or comparably priced separates:

"Yuck. Look at all those harmonic and spurious tones in the FFT. They naturally limit the THD+N and hence SINAD to really poor score of 74 dB. This places the VSX-LX303 pretty close to the bottom of the pile of DACs tested"

Huh? I'm curious how many of those better DACs power 9 speakers and cost $369?

Plus as I mentioned he's too incompetent to even understand what he was really measuring was the zone preamp output, often a simple, cheap circuit compared to the unit's main preamp. [And even on units with main preamp outs you can't properly say you are "testing the DAC": preamp circuits, especially in affordable gear, are not "100% innocuous". If you pass through them there is noise and distortion added to the signal. ]

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post #179 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 05:34 PM
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"What audiophile boutique brand sounded worse than your AVR?"

Worse? I never said that.
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post #180 of 231 Old 08-14-2019, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
What audiophile boutique brand sounded worse than your AVR?
Literally every tube amp



See? It's easy to post generalizations. We all get it, you don't like AVRs. You haven't posted a single suggestion for a product that meets the OP's needs in this thread, you're clearly just here to argue.
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