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Understanding DAC

25K views 525 replies 38 participants last post by  Ricoflashback 
#1 ·
Any assistance would be much appreciated in bringing me up to speed on using an outboard DAC. I was an aspiring audiophile 25-30 years ago. Now that my 26 year old Rotel tuner/preamp amp combo is on its last leg I am trying to understand current technology. What I know of an outboard DAC is that it can provide better sound reproduction but am puzzled as to when and why I would consider one. On that point specs on some receivers and integrated amps- and not necessarily just the lower end ones-don't say much about the digital to analog conversion.
Is a DAC usable with any receiver or integrated amp I might choose? What connections or capability of a particular unit do I look for? If the unit is WiFi, bluetooth, steaming services, internet radio capable, and my Itunes CD library on my laptop connected to the system- could all these sources be routed to an outboard DAC and then how does the signal get to my speakers?
 
#2 ·
With modern AVR’s, I don’t see much point in outboard DAC’s. The built-in DAC’s of modern AVR’s are more than capable.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I would tend to agree. With better brands like Denon and Yamaha it seems to me worrying about their internal DACs is rather silly. An AVR has tons of different circuits in it but if there's something that holds it back from being top-notch the DAC is probably about as low, or almost as low on the list of the different circuits as comes to mind.
---

The review's trashing of the Sony ES unit is flawed on many points (so I'm guessing his store doesn't sell them). Would people like me to elaborate?
 
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#3 ·
It's like anything in audio. There is a point of diminishing return. Yes, you can squeeze a bit more performance from a system with an external dac costing hundreds, if not thousands, but can you tell? What is good enough is typially determined by then critical listener and how deep his wallet is. Some would say yes to an external dac, others say what's available in most equipment is good enough. It's a personal choice.
 
#4 ·
For my self, the DAC and its implementation in my Anthem AVR is darn good, AKM 4458. I have the same dac in my Oppo 203. The 203 sounds really good in my headphone rig via analog connections. I have a 95 with the ESS 9018 dac, it bests the AKM a smidgen in my headphone rig, but not by much. Enough to justify the cost differential I paid? 999 vs, 548? Debatable.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Let me give you some insight on how the high audio DAC (and of course other products) works.

Chip manufactures publish data sheet which generally include a "reference design" This is typically a tested circuit they developed to test the chip and verify the published performance data. Yes this design can be legally copied by anyone and put into a product. Some chip companies even provide sample PC board layouts. They want to sell chips, of course they will make it as easy as they can for anyone to do that.

So some people with as much as a hobbyist background in electronics can build these circuits and they well work fairly well. Of course the big guys, Denon, Sony, JBL, and other pro companies may use the reference circuit as a guide, they will engineer their own circuit from the ground up. They not only need to tailor it to their end product but also have to ensure reliability and manufacturing costs.

But what also happens is some (many) garage audio shops pile on all kinds of marketing BS and technical catch words for what is basically a copied circuit from the chip OEM. Some of these folks cannot even tell you what each part on the schematic does, they just know "it goes there". It's not that the product sounds bad although reliability may be an issue from people without formal engineering backgrounds. But these products are certainly not worth their asked price and perform no better than that $299 Denon receiver which uses the same exact chip. And the Denon receiver has more engineering behind their circuit than the garage audio shop can ever hope for. They just don't have the design and testing resources the big dogs have.

If you want snobbery and bragging rights, then you have to buy a label promoted by some audiophile rag. But if good, in fact excellent, sound reproduction from a DAC is your goal, that can be had for less than $200 these days easily.
 
#6 ·
If you want snobbery and bragging rights, then you have to buy a label promoted by some audiophile rag. But if good, in fact excellent, sound reproduction from a DAC is your goal, that can be had for less than $200 these days easily.
Even Benchmark admits they can't hear improvements in their latest models (but they do measure better). If you're obsessed with getting the absolute best and have 2 grand lying around it's an option but I'd take something like a $140 JDS any day if I needed an outboard.
That said the DAC in almost any decent [say over $500] receiver or integrated released recently will be able to handle anything without issue.
 
#8 ·
Here is literally the first AVR review with measurements I could find over at ASR:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-sony-str-za1100es-avr.7824/

And here is the summary:

If you had any expectation of Sony STR-ZA1100ES beating separate components, that should be dashed by now. Another downer is the high noise floor of the internal analog to digital converter. Fortunately if you don't use the Room EQ, you can use the direct mode and get better performance. Speaking of room EQ, I did not have a chance to test the one on this unit. A few years back I tested it on another Sony AVR and results were very disappointing. Hopefully things have improved.

Operationally the unit operated well, never shutting down or getting too hot (despite using the flimsy heatsinks all AVR manufacturers use).

Overall, the STR-ZA1100ES gives me the impression of "good enough" performance and looks. Lowering my standards substantially, I am going to recommend it given how poor our other options have been in AVR land.
 
#12 ·
If you can read those measurements, it's not that bad. -100db is well below the acoustical noise floor of a typical residential setup.

Operationally the unit operated well, never shutting down or getting too hot (despite using the flimsy heatsinks all AVR manufacturers use).
This further proves one of my points. Anybody with a check book can slap giant heatsinks on a power amplifier. But only precision engineering can get the size, weight, and cost down yet still provide reliable operation.
 
#11 ·
Here's the second AVR review I found over there:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-pioneer-vsx-lx303-avr.7503/

:eek::eek:

On one hand it is hard to get upset when for $369 you get every feature under the sun with so many channels of amplifications. I don't know how to get this box with no electronics from China to hear and make money for that price let alone all the features it has. On the other hand, that is Pioneer's problem, not mine. :) My problem is that I want an efficient and reliable AVR that doesn't decide to shut down by itself. And a DAC that doesn't go into saturation early, showing even small amount of design verification was not performed.

I plan to hook it up to our living room TV system and listen. Maybe in real use the thermal cut-out doesn't occur. If so, I might keep it. Otherwise, I will probably return it.

Needless to say, I can't recommend the Pioneer VSX-LX303 Elite AVR for audiophile use either as an amplifier, a DAC or combination.

Wow, seems to fly in the face of those who say that a $300 AV receiver is better engineered than an aftermarket DAC. :eek:
 
#14 ·
Here's a $5,000 Marantz pre/pro:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...urements-of-marantz-av8805-av-processor.6926/

From pure objective performance, the Marantz AV8805 Processor cannot touch 2-channel dedicated desktop DACs which cost less than its shipping cost! With no published measurements by Marantz, nor that of any reviewer, companies are getting away releasing products that leave good bit of performance on the table. Fortunately there is nothing drastically wrong here, sans the DAC filtering. That aspect needs to be reported to Marantz as hopefully can be fixed with a firmware update.

From subjective point of view, if you wrestle enough with Audyssey Room EQ, you should be able to get better in-room performance than any non-EQ DAC in a real room. Then again, you can get the same in much cheaper AVRs and processors.

I would say buy the Marantz AV8805 because it has the features it has not because you think it will provide reference quality audio performance. It will not.
Absolutely hilarious to me that products some try to rag on get reviewed AND MEASURED in places like Stereophile, yet the big AV companies you go to bat for measure like a giant steaming pile of crap.

We're 3 for 3 so far, but it's time to check out for the weekend.
 
#15 ·
Here's a $5,000 Marantz pre/pro:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...urements-of-marantz-av8805-av-processor.6926/



Absolutely hilarious to me that products some try to rag on get reviewed AND MEASURED in places like Stereophile, yet the big AV companies you go to bat for measure like a giant steaming pile of crap.

We're 3 for 3 so far, but it's time to check out for the weekend.
Do you understand those images or are you just responding the the opinions? I see some lattitude between the measurements and the opinions. Seems the reviewer, who also owns a high end stereo shop, has it in for Best Buy grade products.

Yet those measurements aren't that bad. And we have no comparison to any stand alone DACs. Now I would expect a Benchmark to be superior but look at the cost difference. But I don't think any of these garage brand DACs will be any better then the AV receivers. That was what I claimed up top.
 
#21 ·
I've gotten lost in the details. My aged ears probably won't hear what seems to be marginal differences and I'll have to make do with about $1000 to spend so I'll probably go with something from Yamaha, an integrated amp and tuner or receiver.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Is that $1000 to spend on a New DAC, or is that on a complete amp with a DAC? Or is that Amp, DAC, CD Player?

Rotel still makes pretty nice Amps, I have the RA-1570 with 120w/ch and a a Built In DAC. But for a bit less money you can get this amp -

Rotel A14, 80w/ch, DAC Integrated Amp- $1299 -


https://www.abt.com/product/108663/Rotel-A14-Silver-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier-FR51743.html

https://www.abt.com/product/108662/Rotel-A14-Black-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier-FR51243.html

Rotel A12, 60w/ch, DAC Integrated Amp - $899 -


https://www.abt.com/product/108657/Rotel-A12-Black-Integrated-Amplifier-FR51242.html

https://www.abt.com/product/108651/Rotel-A12-Silver-Integrated-Amplifier-FR51742.html

Rotel CD14 CD Player - $599 -


https://www.abt.com/product/108673/Rotel-CD14-Black-CD-Player-FR51244.html

https://www.abt.com/product/108677/Rotel-CD14-Silver-CD-Player-FR51744.html

Best Buy also has Rotel if that is more convenient for you.

Costing a considerable amount, but delivering a TON of Feature, the Yamaha RN803 Network Streaming Receiver is worth looking at.

Yamaha RN803 Network Receiver, 100w/ch, Network Streaming, DAC, Room EQ, Full Bass Management, etc... - $750 -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022RN803/Yamaha-R-N803.html?skipvs=T

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/r-n803/index.html

If you are an Apple Fan-Boy then perhaps not, apparently these will not be able to support Apple-AirPlay-2. But other than that, for the money, they are fine.

I'm fond of saying -

You can't get what you want until you know what you want.


And I mean that in terms of features and power. The more you know what you need in a system, the more you are able to find the specific system that does what you need.

Today in modern music, it is all about Streaming from your local collection of music, to Internet Radio, to a range of Internet Streaming services some of which transmit in CD quality, other are merely near CD quality. Streaming gives you access to a near INFINITE Library of Music all for about $10/month.

It is cheaper to buy an amp with Streaming built in, but if you want to update your streaming or add streaming to an Integrated amp, you are in the range of $350 to $500 for a Good, but basic streaming unit (Yamaha, Bluesound, etc...).

In a straight up amp with very high value, consider the top of the line consumer integrated Amp with DAC -

Yamaha AS801, 100w/ch, Upgraded DAC - $899 -


https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022AS801B/Yamaha-A-S801-Black.html

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/a-s801/index.html

This has an upgraded 32b/384K DSD Capable DAC with the addition of a USB-PC connection.

Also -

Yamaha AS701 Integrated with DAC, 100w/ch - $799 -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022AS701S/Yamaha-A-S701-Silver.html

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022AS701B/Yamaha-A-S701-Black.html

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/a-s701/index.html

It has a pretty standard 24b/192k DAC with Optical and Coaxial only.

Worth noting that the AS701/AS801 have a single optical and a single coaxial, while the Yamaha RN802 and RN602 have 2xOptical and 2xCoaxial, and I believe 1xUSB-Media.

To add external Streaming the two affordable and generally high quality units would be these -

Yamaha WXC-50 Network Streamer/Pre-Amp - $349 -


https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022WXC50DS/Yamaha-WXC-50.html?skipvs=T

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/wireless_streaming_amplifiers/wxc-50/index.html

Bluesound NODE-2i - $499 -


https://www.crutchfield.com/p_813NODE2IB/Bluesound-Node-2i-Black.html

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_813NODE2IW/Bluesound-Node-2i-White.html

Both the Bluesound and the Yamaha use very fast ARM Processors. Most would give a slight nod to the Bluesound software.

So -

What is your budget for ALL the equipment you need?

Specifically what equipment do you need? CD? Turntable? Amp? Receiver? Network Streaming, DAC, other?

Related to the above question, what FEATURES to you need? Streaming? DAC? Phono? Sub-Out? other?

Lastly how much Power are you looking for? 60w/ch is modest but more than enough for most people for both Movies and Music ...but...
80w/ch and 100w/ch are more power ...but... also more money.

Every system is a Compromise, you just have to work out what you are willing to give up to get what you really need?

EDITED:

My previous Amp was a Yamaha RX-797 Stereo Receiver with 100w/ch (~$550 new) my current amp is the Rotel RA-1570 with 120w/ch and DAC (~$1600, current version is the RA-1572). They really don't sound that much different. The Rotel has better build and component quality, and way more features, but as to the general tone of the amp, they are similar. For whatever that might be worth.

Hopefully that is somewhat helpful.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#32 · (Edited)
I will add one more amp for consideration, it is a Stereo Receiver, new to the market, but it has HDMI Inputs and Outputs.

Denon DRA-800H Network Receiver w/DAC, 100w/ch, Streaming, HDMI - $499 -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_033DRA800/Denon-DRA-800H.html

It has a DAC with 2xOptical, 1xCoaxial, 4xHDMI In, and 1xHDMI Out, Network Streaming, Bluetooth.

Again, this just hit the market, so we have NO feedback on it.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#33 ·
Costing a considerable amount, but delivering a TON of Feature, the Yamaha RN803 Network Streaming Receiver is worth looking at.

Yamaha RN803 Network Receiver, 100w/ch, Network Streaming, DAC, Room EQ, Full Bass Management, etc... - $750 -


In a straight up amp with very high value, consider the top of the line consumer integrated Amp with DAC -

Yamaha AS801, 100w/ch, Upgraded DAC - $899 -


Lots of info. Thanks. These are the two units from Yamaha I was considering.
 
#35 ·
...

Lots of info. Thanks. These are the two units from Yamaha I was considering.
Both are Top of the Line Flagship CONSUMER Models. The price more than doubles if you move up to the next Audiophile Model (Yamaha AS1100) and they don't have DACs.

Yamaha AS1100 Integrated, 90w/ch, NO dac - $2499 -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022AS1100S/Yamaha-A-S1100-Silver.html

That is a fantastic amp, but ...lord... the price!

The Yamaha AS801 and the Yamaha RN803 are the top of the line in Consumer Amps.

And as I mentioned, tonally the Yamaha is not that much different than the Rotel.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#34 · (Edited)
A general comment on DACs. Some DACs can be noise ...IF... they are inside a computer. They CAN be noisy, that doesn't mean they are. Also you can buy external 24b/192k DACs on Amazon for $25, great for $25 but I would not expect them to be as quiet or well made as a DAC in the $200 to $500 range, which is a modest range for quality DAC.

External DACs in general are sort of better than Internal DACs ...assuming... you actually buy a better DAC. But being in an external box, and having an additional power supply adds to the cost. So plan on spending considerably more for an External DAC than you will spend on a DAC built into an Amp.

DACs in Amps are very common today, and most are very good, near universally 24b/192k which is a Studio Quality DAC.

Next how much DAC do you really need. I think if I look, I can find a $5000 DAC ...but... do you actually need and can you afford a $5000 DAC?

I'm content with an Integrated Amp or Receiver with a DAC built in on the assumption it is otherwise a reputable brand. These are usually high quality well implemented DACs with extra features like DSD Capability. I'm not sure what else I need, though others are certainly free to have other needs of their own.

Now if you want, you can get pretty high quality DAC made in China (Topping, SMSL, etc....) very high value for the money, probably in the $100 to $150 range ...if you are willing to go that route.

Just a few random thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#61 ·
What's the beef? One can have a reasonable "best of both worlds" with AVR and integrated amp. in their HT. Convenience, specific application for movies. Better sound for 2CH music. Move along everyone, nothin' to see here. :cool:
 
#64 · (Edited)
In my opinion ... do not get an AVR unless you specifically have use for an AVR, that is to say -

If you want a Music System, then get a Music System, meaning a Stereo. It will still do Movies very nicely.

If you want a Movie System, then get a Movie System, meaning Surround Sound, it will still work for Music.


But get purpose drive system. One does not buy a Mini-Cooper to haul Cargo Freight.

Just off the top of my head I can think of three Stereo amps that have HDMI Inputs. Though only one is on the higher caliber end.

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_410SR250B/Arcam-SR250.html

But one does not need HDMI to listen to movies through a Stereo. This has already been covered, you just need a DAC. Connect the Digital Audio Out of the TV to your the DAC, and set the TV output to PCM - DONE.

There is a reason why you are seeing more and more Stereo Amp equipped to accommodate Movies and TV, because many prefer a Stereo but still love Movies. To most that simply mean adding a DAC to the Amp to others and more recently, that mean adding HDMI Inputs to a Stereo. By the way, there are HDMI to Stereo DACs available.

As to digital becoming dominant ...well.. yes and no, mostly no, but sort of yes.... As mentioned - CD Player/BluRay Players/Network Players - are predominantly Digital, however Network and CD Player have DACs built in, so functionally they are Analog Out. Higher End BluRay have quality DACs and Analog Outs, but most low to mid BluRay will have HDMI, and Optical and/or Coaxial Out for Stereo. For those in a pinch, who need DVD/BluRay plus CD/SACD, a good BluRay Player can be a reasonable choice as an all-in-one Universal Player. The best of these were the OPPO, sadly no longer in production, but Pioneer, Panasonic, and I think Sony, and I'm sure others, have higher end BluRay that have Analog Outs with Universal Disc capability as well as Digital Out.

The Cambridge Audio CXUHD is classed as a Universal Player, but only has HDMI, Optical, and Coaxial Outputs, no Analog, but that is also true of the CXC CD Transport, they depend on a DAC being outside the player or in the Amp. But this is still a very good player, and with more Amps coming with DACs built in, this is not a problem.

https://cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/cx/cxuhd

https://cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/cx/cxc


As to Media, rather than players, Digital Music is becoming more dominant. Streaming is pretty much taking over, but I and many feel this is a substitute for physical media, which means at some point in the somewhat near future, there is going to be a day of reckoning, artist are simply not compensated adequately, billions of streams generate pocket change in revenue, and why buy music, then you can get all you can consume for $10 per month. The point is, the cost is going to go up to generate more revenue for the artists.

Digital Downloads are also replacing physical media. But ownership rights are very different. If you own a Vinyl Album or a CD then you own that physical thing, you can buy it, sell it, trade it, record it for personal use, but with downloaded media you don't own anything, you are merely leasing the right to play the music for your lifetime. However, technically, you can not leave your digital non-physical media to your children. The lease technically only lasts a lifetime.

Given that the Original Poster posted in the 2-Channel forum, I think it is safe to assume he is looking for a Stereo. Which Stereo will depend on his specific needs. If he feels he might need to add Bass Management at some time in the future, then either a Pre-Amp/Power-Amp or a Amp/Receiver with Bass Management built in. If he doesn't think he will need Bass Management/Subwoofer, then any Integrated Amp with a DAC will do.

Again, rephrasing, you have to understand your needs in order to get what you need.

As to BluRay with ONLY HDMI, yes there were a few, but I suspect they were and are in the Minority.

Focus on the Objective and buy to that objective.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#65 ·
In my opinion ... do not get an AVR unless you specifically have use for an AVR, that is to say -

If you want a Music System, then get a Music System, meaning a Stereo. It will still do Movies very nicely.

If you want a Movie System, then get a Movie System, meaning Surround Sound, it will still work for Music.


But get purpose drive system. One does not buy a Mini-Cooper to haul Cargo Freight.
I don’t think the ubiquitous and sometimes overused analogy to motor vehicles works well here.

There’s nothing inherent in the design of an AVR that makes it less capable of playing 2 ch music vs. a “stereo-only” music system. If anything, an AVR is often a better choice, especially when incorporating a subwoofer, because of superior bass management and room correction.
 
#67 ·
It is worth mentioning that with all those digital formats a PC with an audio interface as a source can work really great.
It is also can be a very powerful sound processing device with great room correction, bass management, etc, very "modular" and upgradable to any number of channels (it can't decode things like atmos so if you want to process that you would need to decode atmos and do ADC conversion.)

Fan noise might be a problem though, but its manageable.
 
#68 ·
bluewizard I completely understand your rationale of getting a 'purpose driven system'. In my case I want the best I can get for 2 ch audio listening with my limited budget BUT I am damn curious what an AVR would sound like watching an occasional movie and aren't TV programs broadcast in 5.1? And I did prewire the room with two in wall speakers at the rear so a 5.1 system would be easy to do.
 
#84 · (Edited)
You are letting your thoughts get cluttered by too many options. I'm trying to make this simple for you -

If you want a Music System, then get a Music System, meaning a Stereo. It will still do Movies very nicely.

If you want a Movie System, then get a Movie System, meaning Surround Sound. It will still work for Music.

It sounds like you want a Music system, which is precisely what I have, and as I said previously, I have hit 110db peaks and felt bass so intense it ruffled my hair and cause my pant legs to flap. How much more movie do you really need? My priority is Music, but my system can still bring both the Thunder and the Lightning to movies.

Again I point out - The more you get, the less you get.

We can argue economics of scale on amps, but not on speakers. If you buy 5 speakers and a Sub, then you will either spend considerably more money, or you will get considerably less speakers.

I choose a fixed budget (because I had no choice) and for that budget I maximized the quality rather than the quantity of my components. My priority was a Music System ...so... I bought a Music System, and as you can tell from my comments, it is impressive for Movies. I don't need more.

Now if Movies were my priority, and my budget was fixed, I would have had to make compromises, but those compromises are directed at a goal. But having to buy more amps and having to buy more speakers means I would get less of a system, but that is the compromise I would have chosen to make.

Everything is Audio is a compromise, what are you willing to give up to get what you want. We are always trading away one thing in favor of another.

BUT ...make sure the compromises you are willing to make are actually giving up something you are willing to lose.

Personally I'm very content with the choices I've made on my system -





You posted in the 2-Channel Forum, you spoke of considering 2-Channel Amps, subtly that implies your underlying priorities.

Still, the final decision is up to you. You know your preferences and priorities better than anyone.

There are half a dozen ways to solve this problem -

- AVR/Passive speaker
- Stereo/Passive Speakers
- Pre-Amp/Active Speaker (AV or Stereo)
- Speakers that are embedded in the wall and plastered over so they are completely invisible
- More... etc...

I say Stereo, someone else says AVR, but what we think you should do is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what you want to do relative to your personal requirements, priorities, and limited resources. We are not here to talk you into or out of anything, we are here to make suggestions that might be helpful, but we can't read your mind, we only know what you tell us, so certainly there are going to be a range of suggestion given. An AVR is a valid suggestion, now you have to decide if it does specifically what you need done, or does the RN803 do more specifically what you need done?

We don't know, we can only suggest, you have to make the decision yourself.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#72 ·
Here’s a more appropriate analogy IMHO:

An AVR is like a smartphone. A 2ch integrated amp is like a old flip phone. There’s nothing to suggest that the flip phone is better at making calls than the smartphone simply because that’s all it’s designed to do.
 
#95 ·
OK, thanks. I have my answer. Your preference is based on personal listening.
--
I bought the Heart LP "Dreamboat Annie", BTW, so one of these days I'll attempt to analyze the song Magic Man in greater detail. Thanks for pointing that out. Its one of the rare examples where the best test tracks are music I actually dig!
 
#97 · (Edited)
This is where I found the comment:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/mono-bass-summed-channel-on-vinyl.104940/

"One of the first things I did when involved with a mastering project was to make sure the bass was not summed. As Barry mentioned this is strictly an optional process, but it was probably used more than not. It's a way to get a slightly higher overall level in the cut. Remember that cutting records deals with a lot of compromises. It's amazing that lp's sound as good as they do all things considered, but most agree that they can sound better than cd's where compromises are not as necessary. There are other optional mastering processes that are generally done, but that don't have to be, such as using the acceleration limiters.

I am of the thought that low bass directionality can be determined. I have always been able to tell where a mono subwoofer is located, though obviously many aren't able to do this, or aren't experienced enough to do it. Listen to records with stereo kick drums and see if you can tell that they are split left and right. Granted there are some higher frequencies with the kick drum that may help with localization.

Listen to 'Magic Man' from Heart's first lp where the bass is panned while it is decending in frequency. On a good full range system there can be pinpoint localization of it all the way down.

Doug Sclar, Feb 9, 2007"


My reason is because in classical music, the bass drum is never in the center as far as I know. Stereo subs sharpen this up a bit versus relying on the harmonics for location information. Still works that way to an extent, but better IMO with the stereo subs. Plus using preouts for the powered subs, it sorta works out this way easier.
 
#100 ·
I’ve also owned my fair share of boutique 2 channel equipment over the years. VAC and Conrad-Johnson tube preamps. The original Sunfire stereo amp. Several McIntosh solid-state amps and preamps. Adcom GFA-555. Hafler DH-220. Carver M-500t (which still works, BTW). MSB Link DAC. Several Monarchy Audio units. Other stuff I can’t remember right now.

And it’s my opinion that none the stuff I have previously owned performs as well as a modern AVR with bass management and room correction.
 
#102 ·
I’️ve also owned my fair share of boutique 2 channel equipment over the years. VAC and Conrad-Johnson tube preamps. The original Sunfire stereo amp. Several McIntosh solid-state amps and preamps. Adcom GFA-555. Hafler DH-220. Carver M-500t (which still works, BTW). MSB Link DAC. Several Monarchy Audio units. Other stuff I can’️t remember right now.

And it’️s my opinion that none the stuff I have previously owned performs as well as a modern AVR with bass management and room correction.
I think you are mixing things up - DSP and amp/dac performance.
Personally I don't know any AVR that excels in anything over separate components except being able to read formats and be an all-in-one "compactc solution and maybe less costly (maybe because higher end AVR seems to cost quite a lot).
 
#101 ·
^ Audio and video gear roughly follows that Moore's law thang: better. faster, and half the price of the previous series after just a few years. Woo hoo!
 
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