Rocky Mountain Audio Fest 2019 Pictures and Impressions - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #421 of 439 Old 09-26-2019, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Sorry, I don't quite get the question.
Oh, I thought my question was very straight forward. Okay, let's try this again.

Is there any audio equipment that you used to sell that you feel would represent good value per dollar?

Save your money.
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post #422 of 439 Old 09-26-2019, 08:10 PM
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"Non-audiophile" can mean anything from the guy who is happy with an AM radio in the garage whilst working on the car, who could care less about anything other than "loud", to someone really interested in better sound that you want to introduce to higher-quality sound through (presumably) better gear than that AM radio sitting on the shelf.

Your reword is much better IMO though without bounding "value" is still somewhat ambiguous... My Salon2's are a value to me in the sense that they beat $100k speakers and only cost $22k, but in my younger days value was a $100 amp that sounded as good or better than the $500 amp the local hi-fi shop had.

Many of the value brands back when I was in the biz are no longer around, or no longer values, and new value brands have taken their place.

FWIWFM - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #423 of 439 Old 09-26-2019, 08:20 PM
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Don, the phrase 'good value per dollar' is very clear, obvious and understandable. To a frugal customer, I would think that this phrase would be especially applicable in an expensive hifi store.

Save your money.
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post #424 of 439 Old 09-26-2019, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
Is there any audio equipment that you used to sell that you feel would represent good value per dollar?
Keep in mind I sold gear over a decade ago and things change.

I was often impressed with how inexpensive Polk speakers were considering their response curve neutrality/flatness. [Cabinet resonances were a concern for some though] Boston Acoustics also, but they seem to have nearly fallen off the map now. Some of the higher end brands had more affordable speakers I liked in their introductory line such as Focal. In separates I liked Adcom and NAD for value but they have changed too. Good receivers were Denon and Yamaha back then. Pioneer Elite and Sony ES seemed sort of gimmicky but generally had good performance. Nakamichi made the best cassette decks and also DAT [but at $10K it was not a good "value".] Thorens floating sub-chassis turntables, based on the original Acoustic Research AR-XA, were what I recommended to friends.

Bang & Olufsen had the worst value in terms of performance for dollars spent but they won hands down for looks, modern style, and ease of use. [They were also pioneers in many regards we now take for granted but which they invented.]

What brand works best for customer A is not necessarily what works best for customer B.

I never buy based on "brand" though; I always go by performance per model.

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post #425 of 439 Old 09-26-2019, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
Don, the phrase 'good value per dollar' is very clear, obvious and understandable. To a frugal customer, I would think that this phrase would be especially applicable in an expensive hifi store.
Aside: Sorry to have jumped in, I see you really wanted to hear from m. zillch, I just happen to have some experience though far less than his in actual sales. I was usually buried in the shop or out on installs.

Guess my problem is I worked in several stores but mostly high-end so had a wide range of clientele. Good value for the dollar came with a dollar range; to college kids (like me at the time) it meant "cheap but good", but to many of our clients it meant more like "esoteric sound at moderate to high-end cost". So I do not automatically assign value to less-expensive entry-level'ish products. So I always ask for a budget when someone asks for a "value" recommendation.

The problems I have now are (a) I am no longer in the biz and have lost track of what's a good value, and (b) overall the very "high-end" gear prices seem just insane.

Interesting that back then Polk and Boston Acoustics were also our go-to "value" speaker lines. Ascend and Elac seem to fit that range today, perhaps Emotiva (never heard their speakers). Magnepan, then and now, has some choices at the low end of the price scale if you like planars. For electronics Emotiva (though I'd be nervous about their processors), Outlaw, and the pro crowd seem to be good choices for preamps and amps today. Back then Hafler was one, Carver another (though both got pricier later) -- or Dynaco for separates. Sansui was pretty well-regarded, and Kenwood was a "value" line (though not usually my choice). Denon had some great stuff, but decades later I still remember fighting a leaky coupling cap in one of their amps -- a blown amp is a lot easier to troubleshoot than one that has 0.05% THD instead of 0.001%... NAD has outgrown the entry-level "value" label today IMO. Back then Rega, Garrard, Thorens, and AR (still have my old AR) turntables were in there along with one or two I've forgotten. AR and Thorens were "step-up" TTs for a lot of folk.

There are so many choices it's hard to pick a few.

FWIWFM - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

Last edited by DonH50; 09-26-2019 at 09:05 PM.
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post #426 of 439 Old 09-27-2019, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Keep in mind I sold gear over a decade ago and things change.

I was often impressed with how inexpensive Polk speakers were considering their response curve neutrality/flatness. [Cabinet resonances were a concern for some though] Boston Acoustics also, but they seem to have nearly fallen off the map now. Some of the higher end brands had more affordable speakers I liked in their introductory line such as Focal. In separates I liked Adcom and NAD for value but they have changed too. Good receivers were Denon and Yamaha back then. Pioneer Elite and Sony ES seemed sort of gimmicky but had good performance. Nakamichi made the best cassette decks and also DAT [but at $10K it was not a good "value".] Thorens floating sub-chassis turntables, based on the original Acoustic Research AR-XA, were what I recommended to friends.

Bang & Olufsen had the worst value in terms of performance for dollars spent but they won hands down for looks, modern style, and ease of use. [They were also pioneers in many regards we now take for granted but which they invented.]

What brand works best for customer A is not necessarily what works best for customer B.

I never buy based on "brand" though; I always go by performance per model.
Excellent information, thank you. I've always respected your knowledge and experience.
m. zillch likes this.

Save your money.
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post #427 of 439 Old 09-27-2019, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Aside: Sorry to have jumped in, I see you really wanted to hear from m. zillch, I just happen to have some experience though far less than his in actual sales. I was usually buried in the shop or out on installs.

Guess my problem is I worked in several stores but mostly high-end so had a wide range of clientele. Good value for the dollar came with a dollar range; to college kids (like me at the time) it meant "cheap but good", but to many of our clients it meant more like "esoteric sound at moderate to high-end cost". So I do not automatically assign value to less-expensive entry-level'ish products. So I always ask for a budget when someone asks for a "value" recommendation.

The problems I have now are (a) I am no longer in the biz and have lost track of what's a good value, and (b) overall the very "high-end" gear prices seem just insane.

Interesting that back then Polk and Boston Acoustics were also our go-to "value" speaker lines. Ascend and Elac seem to fit that range today, perhaps Emotiva (never heard their speakers). Magnepan, then and now, has some choices at the low end of the price scale if you like planars. For electronics Emotiva (though I'd be nervous about their processors), Outlaw, and the pro crowd seem to be good choices for preamps and amps today. Back then Hafler was one, Carver another (though both got pricier later) -- or Dynaco for separates. Sansui was pretty well-regarded, and Kenwood was a "value" line (though not usually my choice). Denon had some great stuff, but decades later I still remember fighting a leaky coupling cap in one of their amps -- a blown amp is a lot easier to troubleshoot than one that has 0.05% THD instead of 0.001%... NAD has outgrown the entry-level "value" label today IMO. Back then Rega, Garrard, Thorens, and AR (still have my old AR) turntables were in there along with one or two I've forgotten. AR and Thorens were "step-up" TTs for a lot of folk.

There are so many choices it's hard to pick a few.

FWIWFM - Don
That's okay to jump in. I really appreciate your feedback. Excellent information. And I have heard your speakers, the Revel Salon 2. Even though they're out of my price range, they were absolutely incredible.

Save your money.
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post #428 of 439 Old 10-04-2019, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Follow the money. Could there be a higher opportunity for mark-up than in the high end cable racket? That's why everyone tries to get in on it, even companies who manufacture other equipment will offer their own brand of boutique cables. Make any claim you want, as wild as you want, and some portion of audiophiles will put it in their system and "hear" it making their system better.

Not that I haven' just told you something you don't know

Even a product like this gets the approval of some audio reviewers:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/li...g-tweak-tweaks
WTF:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/li...-your-r-tweaks
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post #429 of 439 Old 10-04-2019, 09:01 AM
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Lol. That money would be MUCH better spent on room treatments and proper set-up (which is free). A lot of wacky stuff in the audiophile world.
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post #430 of 439 Old 10-04-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javi404 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cla55clown View Post
Lol. That money would be MUCH better spent on room treatments and proper set-up (which is free). A lot of wacky stuff in the audiophile world.
Exactly what does this have to do with the topic, which is the 2019 RMAF? Did you both enjoy the show?
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post #431 of 439 Old 10-04-2019, 12:26 PM
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Exactly what does this have to do with the topic, which is the 2019 RMAF? Did you both enjoy the show?
Coming from the king of off topic posts, this rings a little hollow.

My World Beating System!
Spoiler!

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post #432 of 439 Old 10-04-2019, 02:05 PM
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Coming from the king if off topic posts, this rings a little hollow.
Shouldn't be ringing at all. What room and equipment are you talking about?
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post #433 of 439 Old 10-18-2019, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
One of the most fun rooms at the show. HiFi Guides/Z Reviews/DMS. The lineup in the pic is Klipsch RP-600M, SVS Ultra Bookshelf, Edifier S3000 Pro, Vanatoo T LE, Kanto Tuk.

A pair of SVS SB3000 handle bass...

The "system" relies on miniDSP and JDS Labs gear.

For anyone skeptical of the value provided by the six-figure systems at shows like this, well... Having a room like this for reality check is really great! The FACT is all these speakers performed at a high level for tiny fractions of the price of the "high end" stuff.

Stack of Crown XLS 2002 amps providing power.

There's no way around it... Great sound is not expensive and much of what's found in many other rooms at this show are a terrible value compared to this lineup.

SVS Ultra Bookshelf stood out, even if it is an older design. Kanto TUK was my least favorite, too much treble!

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Any idea how the Edifier hooked up to the subs? I was under the impression that they don't have a sub out???
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post #434 of 439 Old 11-08-2019, 09:04 PM
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Hi-Res streaming on Qobuz for $14.99 per month

Qobuz is offering an incredible deal on their Hi-Res streaming service for $14.99 per month through Jan 31, 2020 for the first 100k subscribers!

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/music/st...rs#plan-stream

This is a big discount from their regular price of $24.99 per month.

This is the best deal compared to every other streaming service for Hi-Res tracks (FLAC 24-bit up to 192kHz) and lossless CD Quality tracks.

The first month is free. You have unlimited access to their library of 50 million tracks.

I jumped on this deal and am 100% satisfied.

I made a quick comparison between Qobuz Studio Premier ($14.99/month) and Spotify Premium ($9.99/month).

The lossless CD Quality (FLAC 16-bit/44.1kHz) tracks on Qobuz sound better than the corresponding 320kbps MP3 tracks on Spotify Premium.

They sound smoother with more detail and air.

I am going to cancel my Spotify Premium subscription.

Qobuz just gave the best Christmas gift to all audiophiles!



David
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post #435 of 439 Old 11-08-2019, 09:06 PM
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Uh. Amazon has an even cheaper lossless subscription plan. And with a larger collection if I remember correctly.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #436 of 439 Old 11-12-2019, 11:10 PM
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The 5 most valuable subscription plans for non-stop entertainment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
Uh. Amazon has an even cheaper lossless subscription plan. And with a larger collection if I remember correctly.
Yes, you are correct!

Indeed, Amazon Music Unlimited is cheaper. It is an additional $7.99 per month for Amazon Prime members. For non members, it is $9.99 per month which is the same as Spotify Premium.

The appeal of the Qobuz plan ($14.99 per month) lies in the 2 million Hi-Res audio tracks that one can stream at up to 24-bit/196kHz.


I signed up for the new Disney Plus streaming service today. You can watch all content from Disney in 4K, Dolby Vision/HDR10+ for $69.99 a year.


https://www.disneyplus.com


It covers all Disney Classics, and movies from Pixar, Marvel and Star Wars plus National Geographic.

My Sony 85X950G Android TV readily found the Disney Plus app. I am 100% satisfied with the quality.


Besides Disney Plus for Movies ($5.83 per month) and Qobuz for Hi-Res Music ($14.99 per month), there are 3 more essential subscription plans that cover the full multi-media landscape:


Amazon Prime: This gives you free shipping and access to Amazon Prime Videos ($12.99 per month)

YouTube Premium: You can watch all of YouTube ad free plus you get YouTube Music ($11.99 per month)

AMC AList: You can watch 3 movies per week in any format including Dolby and IMAX 3D ($19.99 per month)


These 5 subscriptions cover the best from Disney, QoBuz, Amazon, Google and AMC.

The combined total comes to $5.83 + $14.99 + $12.99 + $11.99 + $19.99 = $65.79 per month.



With these 5 subscription plans going, you can cut the cord and ditch cable TV.



I cannot believe how much non-stop entertainment one can enjoy for $65.79 a month.


Now all you need is set up your personal home theater with a giant 4K Ultra HDTV with Dolby Vision/HDR10+ and a Dolby Atmos surround sound system and immerse yourself in multi-media nirvana


David
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post #437 of 439 Old 11-13-2019, 12:18 AM
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Yes, you are correct!

Indeed, Amazon Music Unlimited is cheaper. It is an additional $7.99 per month for Amazon Prime members. For non members, it is $9.99 per month which is the same as Spotify Premium.

The appeal of the Qobuz plan ($14.99 per month) lies in the 2 million Hi-Res audio tracks that one can stream at up to 24-bit/196kHz.


I signed up for the new Disney Plus streaming service today. You can watch all content from Disney in 4K, Dolby Vision/HDR10+ for $69.99 a year.


https://www.disneyplus.com


It covers all Disney Classics, and movies from Pixar, Marvel and Star Wars plus National Geographic.

My Sony 85X950G Android TV readily found the Disney Plus app. I am 100% satisfied with the quality.


Besides Disney Plus for Movies ($5.83 per month) and Qobuz for Hi-Res Music ($14.99 per month), there are 3 more essential subscription plans that cover the full multi-media landscape:


Amazon Prime: This gives you free shipping and access to Amazon Prime Videos ($12.99 per month)

YouTube Premium: You can watch all of YouTube ad free plus you get YouTube Music ($11.99 per month)

AMC AList: You can watch 3 movies per week in any format including Dolby and IMAX 3D ($19.99 per month)


These 5 subscriptions cover the best from Disney, QoBuz, Amazon, Google and AMC.

The combined total comes to $5.83 + $14.99 + $12.99 + $11.99 + $19.99 = $65.79 per month.



With these 5 subscription plans going, you can cut the cord and ditch cable TV.



I cannot believe how much non-stop entertainment one can enjoy for $65.79 a month.


Now all you need is set up your personal home theater with a giant 4K Ultra HDTV with Dolby Vision/HDR10+ and a Dolby Atmos surround sound system and immerse yourself in multi-media nirvana


David

Interesting, but what about NBC/CBS/Fox channels, as well as their sports channels, business channels? What about local channels? NatGeo, Discovery, etc. I don't see how this allows one to ditch cable at all.

FAMILY ROOM--Legacy Signature II tower speakers(Front L/R), PSB Image 5T tower speakers(Surrounds), Denon AVR-X5200W, Krell FPB 400cx, AR ES-1 turntable w/ Audioquest 404-B cartridge, Oppo UDP-203 UHD Blu-ray Player, RCA HD-DVD player, Samsung HL67A 750A TV
MASTER BEDROOM--Dynaudio Audience 82 tower speakers, Outlaw LFM-1 sub, Yamaha RX-V1800 receiver, Sherbourn 5/1500A 5-channel amp, Oppo BDP-83 Universal Disc Player, Panasonic 60-ST60 plasma TV.
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post #438 of 439 Old 11-15-2019, 04:08 AM
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Thumbs down

Rabbit ears! I'm about ready to cut the cord. We have WOW! Ultra, Amazon Prime Video, Netflix HDR, and now Disney+.

Sony XBR65x900e / STR-DN1080 / original PS4 / WOW! Ultra TV / Quantum Access Mini PC Stick w/Windows 10 / 8 x Rockville SPG88 8“ DJ PA Speakers / Dayton Audio SA1000 / Kicker 08S15L74 in a Tapped-Tapered Quarter Wave Tube (negative flare tapped horn).

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post #439 of 439 Old 11-15-2019, 11:07 AM
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I cut cable about six months ago and haven't missed it a bit.

I've had the TV on maybe twice this year and it was for tornado warnings where your local news is still the best.
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