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post #271 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I disagree. All humans have bias without exception. The cure? Blind tests. How powerful is bias? In some circumstances it is so strong it even exceeds actual real changes in sound
You can't disagree. First, all my biases would have suggested the wrong thing the whole time. A $6000 preamp driving a $3500 amp cannot possibly sound worse than a $500 old Dolby Pro-Logic integrated amp -- but it did for music. There was a whole string of those.

Second, you are "Exhibit A" of the very religion that you are preaching right now preventing you from having actual experience in the topic you are discussing. You spent a lot of time in this thread saying that pure direct is useless, and mocking the manufacturers' claims for pure direct, and you never even tested it yourself. You don''t need me to outline what test should be done -- it isn't my test -- it should always be tested exactly as it is used in real life -- that's the only relevant test ever.

For "EQ vs no EQ", the sound is so different that you unambiguously do not need blind testing. Your religion even prevented you from allowing yourself to listen to test something that was very obviously audible sighted. You are more interested in seeing a chart than listening. In fact, you are solely interested in seeing a chart. The arcane analysis hurdles you place in front of yourself prevent you from experiencing anything. Meanwhile, those of us with our "reckless" listening testing methodologies have tested a gazillion things.

I'm not sure why you think those articles you reference about blind testing, and the psychology quotes are gospel. To be clear, I'm not against blind for very subtle "shades of gray" differences, but blind testing is very far from the "be all end all" test.

If I had to pick between these 2 test options:

Test A: Listening to an AV processor in my own home for a year, then taking a day or two to install a new AV processor, and then testing the new AV process with a two-day gap in between

or

Test B: Blind testing the old AV processor against the new AV processor under "lab" conditions

I would take "Test A" all day long. It would not even be close. A lab test is nothing like living with something. That's true for everything, and ten times more true for an AV Processor where you have a gazillion things to tweak.

I know you think Test A is the wrong answer (to say the least), but that's because you don't allow yourself to listen.

Listen, and you shall find (<-- you gotta admit, that's deep )
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post #272 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 08:42 PM
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You can't disagree. First, all my biases would have suggested the wrong thing the whole time. A $6000 preamp driving a $3500 amp cannot possibly sound worse than a $500 old Dolby Pro-Logic integrated amp -- but it did for music. There was a whole string of those.
You think the only bias one might have is price? There are zillions besides just price.
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post #273 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 08:43 PM
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You spent a lot of time in this thread saying that pure direct is useless,
Nope, I never wrote that nor think that.
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post #274 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 08:48 PM
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and you never even tested it yourself.
I've sold these things professionally for decades and you think today was first time I've ever had occasion to press that button? If that's what you think you'd be mistaken. [Although today's use doesn't fully count since my room is currently filled with boxes.]

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post #275 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 08:50 PM
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In fact, you are solely interested in seeing a chart.
That is incorrect. After hearing, among other things, the level change I was curious how large it was so I measured it though. I also commented that I heard the tonal change. [EQ]

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post #276 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 08:58 PM
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Listen, and you shall find (<-- you gotta admit, that's deep )
I listen all the time but I use my ears, not my eyes. Apparently making decisions about audio based on just hearing isn't your thing. It is mine.
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post #277 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 09:04 PM
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I did study psychology for four years in college, then edited and published several psychology journals for 24 years, as I have stated in previous posts.
Sorry, I stopped reading after seeing it was only 24 years. I require at least a quarter century of experience

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I wish the overblown expectation bias stuff would just stop. It makes anyone who pushes it relentlessly without an understanding of its limits look very silly.
I agree with everything you said. I do agree with them that biases can apply a lot. In fact, it's almost certainly the norm in the mainstream public -- but for people who have rolled up their sleeves and dug deep in audio for a lifetime, I don't think bias applies almost at all. I try everything -- I don't care about cost differences or anything else -- I'm happy to say when $10k of equipment sounds worse than $500 equipment. Anybody who really loves music and audio quality is probably very free of biases. They just want stuff to sound better.

The mental picture the "universal bias appliers" have in the head is that of the Monopoly "banker" guy walking into the high-end audio store and blindly buying the most expensive thing they have and declaring it the best ever. That mold doesn't fist most people on AVS -- or at least the ones on AVS who are driven by sound quality and have a ton of experience trying to achieve it. Those people also know there is a world of difference between long term experience living with components and blind testing in lab conditions.
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post #278 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 09:16 PM
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Those people also know there is a world of difference between long term experience living with components and blind testing in lab conditions.
Blind testing can be conducted over minutes, hours, days, months, or years. In the home. There's no difference compared to sighted tests.

Blind testing allows for infinite pre-training under whatever conditions the listener chooses, including sighted, again for minutes, hours, days, months, or years, in the home.

My favorite double blind test, partly invented by a former AVS member [RIP Arny] is even open book. WOO HOO. The identity and sound of A and B are fully exposed as references for the listener, so they are free to refresh their memory for the target sounds from start to finish, as frequently as they choose. Great stuff!

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post #279 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 09:30 PM
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You think the only bias one might have is price? There are zillions besides just price.
I agree there can be more biases than price. That said, list all the biases that could apply that would result in me erroneously concluding that $9500 of highly regarded "work of art" separates sounded worse than an obsolete pedestrian $500 integrated amp.

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Nope, I never wrote that nor think that.
You mocked Yamaha's and Emotiva's statements about pure direct -- you quoted them and mocked them.

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I've sold these things professionally for decades and you think today was first time I've ever had occasion to press that button? If that's what you think you'd be mistaken. [Although today's use doesn't fully count since my room is currently filled with boxes.]
The problem is, you didn't listen to the results when you did that in the store. In your head, like now, you probably had already per-determined that pure direct doesn't have any benefit. You likely had the same mindset then that you have now -- that listening can't possibly mean anything. If you had actually listened and sincerely evaluated it back then, you would have offered your experiences immediately when I requested it and I wouldn't have had to ask 20 times. If you had sincerely listened back then, you would have told me what you learned from that in-store experience instead of just saying you have a lot of experience pressing the button.

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I listen all the time but I use my ears, not my eyes. Apparently making decisions about audio based on just hearing isn't your thing. It is mine.
The problem is, the hurdles you set for yourself to create a circumstance where you actually allow yourself to use your ears are so logistically ponderous that it prevents you from experiencing 95% of the stuff you could. For every "perfect lab experiment" you have constructed, I've done a hundred things based upon listening tests. And long term real-world listening tests -- in my experience -- are a much better evaluation tool than short term lab experiments.


.

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post #280 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 09:39 PM
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I agree there can be more biases than price. That said, list all the biases that could apply that would result in me erroneously concluding that $9500 of highly regarded "work of art" separates sounded worse than an obsolete pedestrian $500 integrated amp.
List? There are zillions but one of my favorites hardly anyone knows about (but it blew me away when I first heard about it) is described here. Note also the last line which I underlined because of its importance.
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post #281 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 09:47 PM
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You mocked Yamaha's and Emotiva's statements about pure direct -- you quoted them and mocked them.
I never said room correction negation at the press of a button wasn't useful. I was making fun of their explanation:

You don't also find it hilarious that a product says, to paraphrase them, "Press this button for the

best possible sound but don't press it if instead you prefer inferior sound". To me that's funny. Who wouldn't want the "best possible sound"!?
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post #282 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 09:56 PM
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The problem is, you didn't listen to the results when you did that in the store. In your head, like now, you probably had already per-determined that pure direct doesn't have any benefit.
In my head it "doesn't have any benefit"?! Baloney. I never wrote that the concept of instantaneous room correction negation as a single button didn't have lots of value and I listed three of my main needs for it:

- whole house distribution
- headphone amp connection
- for recording purposes

and now in recent times also testing purposes.
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post #283 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 10:00 PM
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Sorry, I stopped reading after seeing it was only 24 years. I require at least a quarter century of experience

I agree with everything you said. I do agree with them that biases can apply a lot. In fact, it's almost certainly the norm in the mainstream public -- but for people who have rolled up their sleeves and dug deep in audio for a lifetime, I don't think bias applies almost at all. I try everything -- I don't care about cost differences or anything else -- I'm happy to say when $10k of equipment sounds worse than $500 equipment. Anybody who really loves music and audio quality is probably very free of biases. They just want stuff to sound better.

The mental picture the "universal bias appliers" have in the head is that of the Monopoly "banker" guy walking into the high-end audio store and blindly buying the most expensive thing they have and declaring it the best ever. That mold doesn't fist most people on AVS -- or at least the ones on AVS who are driven by sound quality and have a ton of experience trying to achieve it. Those people also know there is a world of difference between long term experience living with components and blind testing in lab conditions.
I find A/B comparison test on the spot is not accurate at all. I think I have very good ears, but when I was comparing two amps under test, I picked one amp and put into my system.........just to switch it out in two days for the one I deemed not as good. There is no price difference or brand difference, They are all my designs and built!!! It's just under A/B comparison, people tend to look for how good this and that between the two. But under relax long term using, then you really can tell which one is better. It's only when people are not under the gun and relax, not thinking about it and just enjoy, that's when they can hear the difference.

Also on top of the above, listening too close to compare can miss the moon. I had an eye opening experience with this. I used to have a pair of Kef Uni-Q bought in the mid 90s. It was the top of that line with two woofers 3 way floor standing. I bought my JM Lab Spectral 913.1 in 1998. When I first got them home, I put them side by side with the Kef and started comparing. I listen to the bass, the voice, the highs and comparing back and fore. I COULDN'T tell it's any better than the Kef. I was really exasperated, over 3 times the cost and not any better. After like 2 hours, I gave up, just sat down while the music was playing through the JM Lab. Then, all of a sudden, I notice......How come it's sounded so "big" for the lack of words, like in a concert hall. The sound was so much fuller, I never heard the system sounded like this. I went back to the Kef, it's not there!!! I went back and fore to confirm that. NOW!!! I realize the difference. I then beefed up the speaker wires, it open up even more.

My point is when you have a good enough pair of speakers, they should ALL sound good enough. You should not hear any defective bass, treble and all. The difference between a middle of the road ( Kef) and a higher end speakers is the sound stage, the separation and the 3D. This is something that until one experience this, they would never realize this.

I am sure if I still using the Kef, I would be on the other side of the boat. There's nothing wrong with the sound. You cannot compare and compare, it is going to sound just as good as any other high end speakers........Until you experience the sound stage, the feeling that you are surrounded by the sound and you can hear every little sound clearly.


This is like fine wine or painting or anything else. In their higher form, it takes knowledge, experience to judge and it's very obvious. To people like me tasting wine, they all taste the same!!! Particular red wine, they taste like medicine to me. But am I right or am I ignorant?...................


I would rather kill myself than to read Shakespeare also!!! I don't know enough to appreciate it.

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Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

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post #284 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 10:04 PM
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If you had sincerely listened back then, you would have told me what you learned from that in-store experience instead of just saying you have a lot of experience pressing the button.
Your presumption is incorrect.
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post #285 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 10:10 PM
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The problem is, the hurdles you set for yourself to create a circumstance where you actually allow yourself to use your ears are so logistically ponderous that it prevents you from experiencing 95% of the stuff you could. For every "perfect lab experiment" you have constructed, I've done a hundred things based upon listening tests. And long term real-world listening tests -- in my experience -- are a much better evaluation tool than short term lab experiments.
OK you got a point there. Blind testing takes longer to set up. But as a wise man once said, "Just because valid, scientifically controlled experimentation can be challenging to pull off properly (and time consuming) doesn't mean unscientific testing suddenly has validity."
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post #286 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 10:32 PM
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The problem is, the hurdles you set for yourself to create a circumstance where you actually allow yourself to use your ears are so logistically ponderous that it prevents you from experiencing 95% of the stuff you could.
Actually, off the top of my head, pretty much everything in 2ch audio I've ever wanted to test, I have. [I don't own a speaker shuffler though.]

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post #287 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 10:45 PM
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I am sorry to learn of your hearing limitations. Bummer.

I am fortunate to have excellent hearing and to have learned a great deal from audio designers and engineers about evaluating components through critical listening via both blind and sighted testing. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, as I have discussed in the past.

I wish you could do the same.
Jeez guys, this guy wins at hearing. We should all just stop trying, since apparently we don't possess the supreme hearing prowess. Our dumb untrained ears don't know what they're hearing, so there's nothing to be gained from our thoughts on any sound tests...I mean how do we know we don't hear good things and think they're bad and vice versa?

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post #288 of 430 Old 11-21-2019, 11:08 PM
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Jeez guys, this guy wins at hearing. We should all just stop trying, since apparently we don't possess the supreme hearing prowess. Our dumb untrained ears don't know what they're hearing, so there's nothing to be gained from our thoughts on any sound tests...I mean how do we know we don't hear good things and think they're bad and vice versa?
I never said or implied any such things. There is no reason to insult me for saying I have excellent hearing and learned how to listen critically to audio products. Heavens, there are many people here who have superb hearing and know how to evaluate components.

I will assume you misunderstood my post and are in a grumpy mood. Cheer up.

Signing off for the night.

Music room: Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000II linear-tracking turntable.
Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.
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post #289 of 430 Old 11-22-2019, 12:22 AM
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I never said or implied any such things. There is no reason to insult me for saying I have excellent hearing and learned how to listen critically to audio products. Heavens, there are many people here who have superb hearing and know how to evaluate components.

I will assume you misunderstood my post and are in a grumpy mood. Cheer up.

Signing off for the night.
Right, because touting your superior hearing after talking about how you hear all these perceived differences in amps when several of us were positing that's bunk couldn't possibly have come off (to tweak one of Steve Jobs infamous remarks) as "You're listening to it wrong."

You're welcome to tell yourself whatever you need to in order to justify all your gear purchases. To give in now would suggest lots and lots of unnecessarily spent money. As always, it's truly about the gear and not the sound - but pretending it's all about the sound Silly me, I have stupid ears that hear incorrectly since these amps all sound the same...

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post #290 of 430 Old 11-22-2019, 01:22 AM
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Right, because touting your superior hearing after talking about how you hear all these perceived differences in amps when several of us were positing that's bunk couldn't possibly have come off (to tweak one of Steve Jobs infamous remarks) as "You're listening to it wrong."

You're welcome to tell yourself whatever you need to in order to justify all your gear purchases. To give in now would suggest lots and lots of unnecessarily spent money. As always, it's truly about the gear and not the sound - but pretending it's all about the sound Silly me, I have stupid ears that hear incorrectly since these amps all sound the same...
I can tell you I can hear the difference for different amps. In my case, there is NO money or brand difference, I designed and built all of them. Different design gives me difference sound. Not only I can tell the difference, I have people come and did test and they can. Before you talk about DBT, all my amps look EXACTLY the same, it's good as DBT as they don't know what circuit is what even if they look at the amp. Only I know.

For me, They are all my designs, so either one sounds the best is still my design. One funny thing is I have one that is very original, nothing like the amps on the market. I did wish it sound the best, but it did not work out this way. That's the one I described in post #283 that I had that amp in the system for two days and had to switch it out in favor of the other one. That was disappointing for me, if it is psychological, I would have stay with the original one. I think I am very objective in judging.

The sound is so different that everyone can pick out the amps every time.

Again, the system is DEFINED by the speakers used. You have to have speakers that can review the difference. The speaker is THE MOST IMPORTANT piece in the system. The system sounds as good as the weakest link in the system. If you use a really good amp on a mid-fi speakers, it will not show the potential of the amp.

I have enough speakers to say, if I use my pair of Monitor Audio Silver series speakers, I cannot tell much difference because the speakers doesn't have the resolution, I could not hear the small sound I expect. Also, it doesn't have the sound stage.

In my experience, the amp makes a difference in the sound stage. I have one amp the sound stage is at the speakers plane, one have infront of the speakers. The PA-7 is the worst, it's behind the speakers plane. Also, I have a song that has a lot of small sound and I can compare which amp gives me more of those sound.

Also, like I said in post #283 . I was on your side before when I was using the pair of Kef Uni-Q as described in post #283 above. You have to live with a system first, not just doing test. You might not know what you missed until you have a better system. It's not about whether you have good ears, it's about opening your ears.

In fact, I am on and off shopping for a pair of better speakers. I feel my amps out classed the JM Lab at this time. I am too cheap to buy new, I am looking at used market so I can pay about $5K for a pair of $15K speakers. If it's not for testing amps, I would be perfectly happy with my JM Lab. Like most people, I cannot imagine anything can be better just like when I was using the Kef. BUT I know better from the lesson. Like the Chinese saying, a frog sitting at the bottom of the well think the sky is only so small because that's all it can see.


I started out in the late 70s with a pair of Radio Shack speakers, I thought that was really good......until I heard my friend's speakers. Then I bought the pair of Kef Uni-Q, that was day and night difference. I was so happy......Until I got the JM Lab. I gave the Kef to my stepson long time ago.

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Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

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I forgot to mention another experience that happened to me on amps. I used to believe an amp is an amp, as long it's not clipped, they should be the same. When I was auditioning the JM Lab Spectral 913.1, I was really shopping around. At the time, I just bought the Acurus 3X200 to replace an old SAE integrated amp. Before I paid for the speakers, I want to to test the speakers with my Acurus, so I brought the amp to the store and ran it through the speakers. After I decided to buy and paid for the speakers, I noticed they have a YBA amp that they used to demo their speakers. I was just curious and have them hooked up the YBA into my speakers. WHAT A DIFFERENCE DID IT MAKE. It was a different world from my Acurus, the richness and the smoothness. The bigger the sound compare to the Acurus. I was kicking myself for buying the Acurus. The Acurus is no dog by any measure, later on, I bought a Nakamichi PA-7. I honestly cannot say the PA-7 sounds better than the Acurus.

I had been thinking and wanting that YBA for years. That was the main reason that drove me into designing my own amps. That YBA(don't know the model) was $5K MSRP, there's no way I would pay $5K for an amp. I know electronics, so I decided to get into designing hifi power amps to get my own "YBA" amp. I was really interested in breaking the secret of power amps. Now, I am curious how my amps match up with the YBA. All because of that one curious moment of trying the YBA. I am sure if I have not tried that, I would never know the difference and still think all amps sound the same as long as it's not clipped.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 11-22-2019 at 03:10 AM.
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post #292 of 430 Old 11-22-2019, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I have a couple of Yammies and have not tested this all extensively but here's what I have for now.
My RX-V375, using RCA analog IN called "Audio 1" [not multichannel RCA ins, it doesn't have that, just plain-Jane input] in 2ch Stereo mode vs. STRAIGHT, speaker level outputs, driving a high grade 4-ohm load resistor:

Ripple in the top octave implies AD/DA. No ripple implies no digitization:



The 10 dB higher noise floor also implies the added noise of AD/DA in STRAIGHT mode, not 2ch Stereo:


This unit has no proper "Pure Direct" button like my more expensive one does.

If I recall correctly I also have a graphic somewhere in my messy, disorganized computer showing the bass management filtration for the mains gets extinguished in 2ch Stereo mode, aka "secret Pure Direct" according to my initial findings, but I can't find that image at the moment.
Thankyou for taking the time to show me. I guess the moral of this story is read and reread the manual and experiment as manufacturers change things from year to year.
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post #293 of 430 Old 11-22-2019, 06:46 AM
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I disagree. All humans have bias without exception. The cure? Blind tests. How powerful is bias? In some circumstances it is so strong it even exceeds actual real changes in sound :

"In summary, the sighted and blind loudspeaker listening tests in this study produced significantly different sound quality ratings. The psychological biases in the sighted tests were sufficiently strong that listeners were largely unresponsive to real changes in sound quality caused by acoustical interactions between the loudspeaker, its position in the room, and the program material. In other words, if you want to obtain an accurate and reliable measure of how the audio product truly sounds, the listening test must be done blind. It’s time the audio industry grow up and acknowledge this fact, if it wants to retain the trust and respect of consumers."

Source.
Sorry... what trust?? *lol*
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post #294 of 430 Old 11-22-2019, 06:54 AM
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I find A/B comparison test on the spot is not accurate at all. I think I have very good ears, but when I was comparing two amps under test, I picked one amp and put into my system.........just to switch it out in two days for the one I deemed not as good. There is no price difference or brand difference, They are all my designs and built!!! It's just under A/B comparison, people tend to look for how good this and that between the two. But under relax long term using, then you really can tell which one is better. It's only when people are not under the gun and relax, not thinking about it and just enjoy, that's when they can hear the difference.
Yeah, we know all too well why you don't like objective blind listening tests. Why dont you just come out and say it that you dont trust your ears. Dr Floyd Tool who BTW is the authority in audio and holds far more patents then you has done far more extensive research testing using way more subjects in his research then your crude one-ofs testing .
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post #295 of 430 Old 11-22-2019, 09:07 AM
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Thank you for taking the time to show me. I guess the moral of this story is read and reread the manual and experiment as manufacturers change things from year to year.
Well actually I'm 99% sure this odd behavior is undocumented in the manual nor any other Yamaha literature and keep in mind I was forced to attended "Yamaha school" where dealers are periodically sent to indoctrination technical training seminars/lectures. [I met Gene DeLasalla (sp?) of Audioholics fame that way. He was part of their technical staff back then or at least a hired gun/guest lecturer.]

Also, as mentioned earlier, it may be a fluke only found in this model or perhaps just the lower tier units which lack a true Pure Direct button. I notice also a curious, loud mechanical "clunk" noise, very similar to a standard turn on/off mute relay, when I select or deselect 2ch Stereo mode, almost as if some serious (high current capable) relay is being activated [maybe it's the AD/DA board being bypassed?]. This clunk sound does not occur on my higher end model when 2ch Stereo is selected/deselected.

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post #296 of 430 Old 11-22-2019, 09:16 AM
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The power amp part of the receivers have NOT evolve much( if any) in the last 30 years, a good amp that is 30 years old is not by default inferior. In fact all the new bells and whistles can make it worst like all the digital stuffs. Notice the faster and newer the computers, the SLOWER they are? The ones 20 years ago were more primitive, but they run faster and more reliable than today's computers. The fancier they get, the slower, more inconsistent they are? Don't even get me started on the new cars. Let's just say my new car spent at least a month in the first half year in the shop dealing with strange problems and they couldn't exactly resolve it.


I will hold onto a good amp from 30 years ago than a new amp.
I get the point you are making, but modern computer hardware is most assuredly faster, using any objective metric, than a computer from 20 years ago. You may perceive things to be slower, but that’s because software has gotten more complex as well.
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post #297 of 430 Old 11-22-2019, 09:44 AM
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As always, it's truly about the gear and not the sound - but pretending it's all about the sound
Ha! That's great; I really like it. It's funny and so true for so many goods. Just like wine, cameras, cars, etc. its all just some sort of machismo/ snobbery/ conspicuous consumption/ "pride of ownership" thang for some people which I just don't get. When those of us who make decisions based on scientifically controlled, evidence based science appear it threatens their dogma-based belief system so they attack the science itself:

Tom: "My car's new Ultra Turbo engine can easily out accelerate your car."
Harry: "Is that so? Let's test it with my new stopwatch."
Tom: "Don't be silly! Stopwatches are just crude devices which can't truly reflect what's going on, as I've proven many times before."

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post #298 of 430 Old 11-22-2019, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Ha! That's great; I really like it. It's funny and so true for so many goods. Just like wine, cameras, cars, etc. its all just some sort of machismo/ snobbery/ conspicuous consumption/ "pride of ownership" thang for some people which I just don't get. When those of us who make decisions based on scientifically controlled, evidence based science appear it threatens their dogma-based belief system so they attack the science itself:

Tom: "My car's new Ultra Turbo engine can easily out accelerate your car."
Harry: "Is that so? Let's test it with my new stopwatch."
Tom: "Don't be silly! Stopwatches are just crude devices which can't truly reflect what's going on, as I've proven many times before."

You can actually measure 0-60 times though. That comparo is pretty bad to be honest.

You can measure db and frequency response and such with a speaker, but I've never seen a way to measure detail, soundstage, etc.

And I think it's absolutely hilarious that people in here seem to work on the assumption that everyone "hears" the same. That's just not true at all. While time and lifestyle dictates some of this, I don't see why it's so implausible that some folks may hear differently/better than others. Just like some people can jump higher, sing better, throw farther, think better, see better, etc. We're all the "same" but we're also different in a lot of ways.

Point being, just because you don't hear it doesn't mean that someone else cannot. And lining up a bunch of random non-audiophile/non-musicians/non-producer people in an ABX is akin to having them shoot free throws and saying that 10 out of 10 is impossible (even though pros can do that).

But whatever man...people can believe what they want to if it makes them feel better about themselves.
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post #299 of 430 Old 11-22-2019, 10:26 AM
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I've never seen a way to measure detail, soundstage, etc.
You can't describe it with a single number like you can, say, a car's 0-60mph acceleration, but such things can be measured and quantified on various scales.

https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/co...ons/?elib=3759
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=11853
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=7671
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post #300 of 430 Old 11-22-2019, 10:40 AM
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And I think it's absolutely hilarious that people in here seem to work on the assumption that everyone "hears" the same. That's just not true at all. While time and lifestyle dictates some of this, I don't see why it's so implausible that some folks may hear differently/better than others.
Then they should be able to demonstrate this claimed ability in a test. If they claim amp A sounds better that amp B, in whatever regard they feel is important (their pick), then they should be able to demonstrate that they can hear a difference between them using just their hearing, not assisted by their vision, and of course with the amps at the exact same volume level and neither driven to clipping. What they often do instead is refuse to take the test. This tells me everything I need to know.
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