Vintage vs Modern 2 ch receivers question - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 430 Old 10-16-2019, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I am sure I am not an expert like you. You an EE, programmer?
Software engineer -- coding since I was about 7 years old, albeit back then I was mostly typing stuff in from magazines and trying to comprehend how it worked.

I'm also pretty well read on many other subjects and tend to keep my mouth shut if I'm not; I'd rather learn from smarter people. Unfortunately, thus far, in this particular domain at least, you've not proven to be one.
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
You must not read my post, I complain because I OWN all the latest computers, printers and all to say that, not that I never have those like your father and complain. I have to live with those day in and day out to complain. All of them are still current and are still being sold on Amazon. Because of the heavy usage, I have to buy new ones all the time. They do break. We went through 3 Canon printers in the last 5 years!!! I have to be on the computer at least 5 ot 6 hours a day.
I read your post -- I may even agree with some of the premises. However, you seem to falsely equate all those complaints to "digital technology" or "computers are slow" and neither is the root-cause. Sorry, but I'm too logical to stray from trying to find the root cause of something. I'm not going to accept "digital sucks, this new fangled digital crap is crap" when it has nothing to do with digital. I'm not going to accept, "new computers are slow" when it has nothing to do with new computers and everything to do with new software -- if you could put new software on old computers you think it'd execute faster, more reliably? That's pretty much what you implied in your very first statement that new computers are slower and less reliable because they are "fancier" (whatever the heck that means).

Maybe you just stated your issues all wrong and we fundamentally agree, but...uncertain.
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I did published papers in America Institute of Physics and own two US Patent solely under my name, all in electronics.
And Tekton received a patent for something ridiculous at best and grandiose prior art at worst -- having a patent issued by the United States Patent Office, with their inept review system, doesn't imply you're accomplished.
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post #32 of 430 Old 10-16-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
What degree you have? You really think a BS degree is that important?

Stop!
You've laid back for a few weeks and there was no bickering/challenging of this sort.

You enjoy the same hobby as everyone else. Just add insight without the "BS" degree.



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post #33 of 430 Old 10-16-2019, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Software engineer -- coding since I was about 7 years old, albeit back then I was mostly typing stuff in from magazines and trying to comprehend how it worked.

I'm also pretty well read on many other subjects and tend to keep my mouth shut if I'm not; I'd rather learn from smarter people. Unfortunately, thus far, in this particular domain at least, you've not proven to be one.

I read your post -- I may even agree with some of the premises. However, you seem to falsely equate all those complaints to "digital technology" or "computers are slow" and neither is the root-cause. Sorry, but I'm too logical to stray from trying to find the root cause of something. I'm not going to accept "digital sucks, this new fangled digital crap is crap" when it has nothing to do with digital. I'm not going to accept, "new computers are slow" when it has nothing to do with new computers and everything to do with new software -- if you could put new software on old computers you think it'd execute faster, more reliably? That's pretty much what you implied in your very first statement that new computers are slower and less reliable because they are "fancier" (whatever the heck that means).

Maybe you just stated your issues all wrong and we fundamentally agree, but...uncertain.

And Tekton received a patent for something ridiculous at best and grandiose prior art at worst -- having a patent issued by the United States Patent Office, with their inept review system, doesn't imply you're accomplished.
Where did I say digital sucks? I am a true believer in digital, I design my share of digital, MPU, FPGA and all that. I don't know why you don't get that I look at the system as one piece. Hardware without soft/firmware is just a useless piece. It's the software/firmware that make it slow and all the bugs that make it frustrating. You should know since you do coding. I was doing a lot of programming when I first started in my career, then I realize that you always work as a group, you depend on using each other's programs to make the whole piece work. Then when something is faulty, then people start blaming each other. All the fights and all, that's when I move away from programming and concentrated on hardware. Even then, too much politics, that's when I totally change to RF and analog so I don't have to fight with people. I've been around the block.


It's the software/firmware. Always have bugs, by the time they get close to debugging that piece, it's obsolete and it's time to have the new version and repeat the whole cycle again. You should know that.


As I said, I complain, but I have no choice but to use almost the latest and greatest computers and other hardware. Not that I don't know or use any of the new things and complain about it.


Yes, I use smart phone, not the old flip phones. I do keep up, not expert on operating system and all that, but I survive. Hey, I am the IT guy in the house, every time big boss start screaming at the computer and printers, I got to go and fix it!!!! She's the one that are doing a lot of fancy printing from her crafts, cards and all, and I have to fix the stupid printers and computers.

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post #34 of 430 Old 10-16-2019, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Stop!
You've laid back for a few weeks and there was no bickering/challenging of this sort.

You enjoy the same hobby as everyone else. Just add insight without the "BS" degree.

Who's the one that started this? Want to stop, don't start.


I guess I manage to fool all the companies to pay me the PhD wages and kept giving me raises all these years.

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post #35 of 430 Old 10-16-2019, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Where did I say digital sucks?
I'm sorry, let me snip the part of your first post that I suppose you'll say I took out of context:
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In fact all the new bells and whistles can make it worst like all the digital stuffs.
So, I'm not supposed to read that "all digital stuffs" are "worst" because of "bells and whistles".... My bad.

Let's continue to rehash this post so we're clear where we stand:
Quote:
Notice the faster and newer the computers, the SLOWER they are?
Nope, the faster and newer the computers the faster they are, that's a tautology. However, they perform much more work, have much more software code executing on them and, yes, some of that code is less efficient because, for one, it is written by people with deadlines that don't often jive with writing efficient bug-free software.

But then you continue:
Quote:
The ones 20 years ago were more primitive, but they run faster and more reliable than today's computers. The fancier they get, the slower, more inconsistent they are?
Backpedal some more, but I read this pretty straight -- 20 years ago computers were more primitive, but faster and more reliable -- all rubbish! And how exactly is a computer inconsistent? I mean...it's pretty much the exact opposite of that! If it weren't logic would be hell! Now, unfortunately, it'll dutifully and "consistently" (*) execute all the crap code put into it -- that's a human problem, not a computer problem.

(*) "consistently" is tough here, because with branch prediction and other stuffs the execution path may differ, so it's not strictly "consistent", but as observed from outside the "box" it certainly must be.

And finally:

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Don't even get me started on the new cars. Let's just say my new car spent at least a month in the first half year in the shop dealing with strange problems and they couldn't exactly resolve it.
So because the shop folks were incompetent, or the software folks working on the car's code were incompetent, then new cars are crap? Sorry, but again, you generalize the wrong things.

Let's continue your current post....

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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I am a true believer in digital, I design my share of digital, MPU, FPGA and all that. I don't know why you don't get that I look at the system as one piece. Hardware without soft/firmware is just a useless piece. It's the software/firmware that make it slow and all the bugs that make it frustrating. You should know since you do coding.
I don't look at it as one piece, not when trying to generalize to "new computers are slower than old computers" -- if old computers could even run current code they would do so abysmally slow. You don't want slower, buggy, software, fix the "problems" within the business of software engineering. But, most companies look at hardware as a sledgehammer -- if their code is too slow they just get more hardware because it's cheaper than the dumb humans they can afford to write crap code. You have to separate the two, if you don't you falsely accuse the hardware for software problems (or at the very least, don't get down to the root cause of your issues).

If you were a decent developer back in your day, you'd know how important root-cause analysis is.
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I was doing a lot of programming when I first started in my career, then I realize that you always work as a group, you depend on using each other's programs to make the whole piece work. Then when something is faulty, then people start blaming each other. All the fights and all, that's when I move away from programming and concentrated on hardware. Even then, too much politics, that's when I totally change to RF and analog so I don't have to fight with people. I've been around the block.
We don't have those issues here...maybe you worked with too many inflated egos whose talent couldn't back them up?
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
It's the software/firmware. Always have bugs, by the time they get close to debugging that piece, it's obsolete and it's time to have the new version and repeat the whole cycle again. You should know that.
Nope, not in my industry...but, we focus a lot on testing. I'm not saying we release bug-free code, certainly we don't, but we certainly don't release beta software like I feel many companies today do.
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
As I said, I complain, but I have no choice but to use almost the latest and greatest computers and other hardware. Not that I don't know or use any of the new things and complain about it.
You're free to complain, just put the blame in the right spot. It has "nothing" (*) to do with modern computers and everything to do with modern software and the rampant incompetence in the software industry (both the execs who treat software as a commodity and the developers that do themselves no favors by being clueless and suffering from massive Dunning-Kruger effect like most today's world).

(*) ok, it may have "something" to do with modern computers because modern CPUs do a lot at the hardware level (e.g., instruction reordering) that super old crap didn't (couldn't stick enough gates on the die). Combine that with certain developers (e.g., "jocks" that think they can develop, say, speedy lockless algorithms) who don't always understand this thoroughly (and despite that like to write code they don't understand anyway) and you have a problem. Then let them post it on stack overflow so some other idiot that doesn't understand it can copy-paste it into their code-base and...well...off it goes.
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Yes, I use smart phone, not the old flip phones. I do keep up, not expert on operating system and all that, but I survive. Hey, I am the IT guy in the house, every time big boss start screaming at the computer and printers, I got to go and fix it!!!! She's the one that are doing a lot of fancy printing from her crafts, cards and all, and I have to fix the stupid printers and computers.
... congrats?

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post #36 of 430 Old 10-17-2019, 10:16 AM
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I did published papers in America Institute of Physics and own two US Patent solely under my name, all in electronics.

Then you should be able to differentiate between poor coding and poor hardware design...but yet you can't. Makes me wonder....
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post #37 of 430 Old 10-17-2019, 10:50 AM
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Boy, this thread's gone off the rails.
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post #38 of 430 Old 10-17-2019, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by hogues View Post
Boy, this thread's gone off the rails.


50% of them in this particular forum seem to. Most of those are people trying to "out science" someone else.

I just wanted to talk about vintage receivers
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post #39 of 430 Old 10-17-2019, 02:57 PM
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I just wanted to talk about vintage receivers
I hear you. I have a Fisher 400c and I love it. Took a while to get it up to speed. I think that with truly vintage receivers, you need a guy that you can trust to look at it.

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post #40 of 430 Old 10-18-2019, 02:33 PM
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Since I helped to take it off-topic, I can help put it back on track, lol.

My dad's old Sansui 9090 is still kicking in my mom's basement. It could use some service, he performed some before he passed, but it could probably use a re-cap and maybe new volume pot. A few lights are burnt out, too, which sucks. I can remember being mesmerized by the bouncing power meters when I was young, and pushing and pushing until the meters pegged, lol. Of course, then I remember the day around Christmas when my mom came home to find her Precious Moments nativity set had fallen (read, been shaken) off the wall-mounted shelving...not a fun day for me, lol. Come to think of it, I still owe her a replacement.
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post #41 of 430 Old 10-21-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
The main issue with vintage receivers, amps, etc is worn out caps, transformers, etc. Is the cost to refurbish worth it? That’s up to the owner.
I've heard this forever, and I'm certain it's an issue with some specific caps (Sunfire subwoofer electrolytic caps come to mind), but I think it's far from universal. I have a 1972 Rotel RX-400 (which is identical internally to the Harman Kardon Three-Thirty) paired with 1978 Allison Six speakers and I'm blown away by the sound of that system. I don't think the Rotel has ever been recapped and it sounds amazing -- the bass is great and treble is so crisp on the Rotel/Allison combo that I don't think it's lost a step in its 47 years.

I'd like to substitute a modern amp to compare, but it's kind of a pain (especially with screw-in speaker terminals on the Rotel). I probably will do it when I have a spare amp and spare time because I'm very curious how a new amp would compare. I think older receivers/amps do benefit from the loudness circuits, which seems to have gone away on modern amps/receivers.

Here are the internals on the Rotel (not an IC in sight ):

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post #42 of 430 Old 10-21-2019, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Notice the faster and newer the computers, the SLOWER they are? The ones 20 years ago were more primitive, but they run faster and more reliable than today's computers. The fancier they get, the slower, more inconsistent they are? .
If you would try to run the current programs and graphics on those old computers, you would be lucky to get them to even boot up.
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post #43 of 430 Old 10-21-2019, 11:03 AM
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I just wanted to talk about vintage receivers
Yeah, but what does that have to do with computers????
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post #44 of 430 Old 10-21-2019, 11:29 AM
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That picture of the Rotel with its "Hood" open kinda reminds me of old cars. Open the hood, you knew what was what.
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post #45 of 430 Old 10-21-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by hogues View Post
I have a Fisher 400c and I love it.

Please Note -> AVSForum rules require that you post photos when you discuss your vintage equipment **








** OK, the rules don't require that, but they should


.

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post #46 of 430 Old 10-21-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
I already had done that before I reminded everyone of the forum "rules" (Exhibit A -> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...l#post58712752). Not sure if that's the same though since the 400c is a preamp rather than an amp.
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post #47 of 430 Old 10-21-2019, 01:47 PM
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But if the AVS forum rules don't state that is required... why do your desires make that so?
Joke or not. If you would like a "new rule", contact a moderator or the admin.

IMHO, there are already too many "distractions" to disrupt discussion(s), why make it worse?
???????????? It's obviously a joke. I'm certain I'm not alone in loving photos of vintage equipment, but it would be beyond stupid to have a rule requiring pictures to be posted. I'll tell you what, I'll edit the post to add smilies to clarify, though I'm certain you are the only one who thinks it was a serious comment.
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post #48 of 430 Old 10-21-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Tell you what..
you delete yours and I'll delete mine.
My post is not a distraction. You can't have a thread about vintage receivers with fifty posts and zero pictures -- that is illegal in several states. <- yes, another joke
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post #49 of 430 Old 10-21-2019, 01:59 PM
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Okay...
Have fun.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #50 of 430 Old 10-21-2019, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
The power amp part of the receivers have NOT evolve much( if any) in the last 30 years, a good amp that is 30 years old is not by default inferior. In fact all the new bells and whistles can make it worst like all the digital stuffs. Notice the faster and newer the computers, the SLOWER they are? The ones 20 years ago were more primitive, but they run faster and more reliable than today's computers. The fancier they get, the slower, more inconsistent they are? Don't even get me started on the new cars. Let's just say my new car spent at least a month in the first half year in the shop dealing with strange problems and they couldn't exactly resolve it.


I will hold onto a good amp from 30 years ago than a new amp.
I understand what this gentleman tried to say, regardless of the Opposition...

In simple words, way back when Windows 2000 Professional was run, the PC's were more primitive however if you take the PC from that era and start a software also from that time IE. MS Word it will open almost instantaneously. Take right now a PC with modern components and and start as well MS Word, even with all that modern tech it will few seconds to start. Speak, he compared old tech with old software to equivalent today and wanted to say that PC were doing works faster then today's ones. He did not try to say that those old machines are faster then today ones.

There was no reason for heated topic in regards of this, IMHO.

Anyway, if you take the same principle to HIFI, that does not work the same since our hearing is perceptive, otherwise we wouldn't have anymore Tube Amps, Record Players, etc.

I do not have some high degree in electronics but I know a lot about HiFi since I grew up with tube amps, record players, solid state amps, etc. Even when I was young I had reference equipment for that time and for sure can draw the difference between old and new stuff.

Anyway, I do not want to spill fuel on fire nor to engage in some heated conversation therefore I will post this and I am out of this thread.

Have fun folks!

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post #51 of 430 Old 10-22-2019, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Lefty71 View Post
The addition of the Bluetooth, DLNA and satallite radio features, over the Sony, don't justify the .1. Again, thanks for the replies.
The .1 is not an issue for either the Sony or the HK -- just connect the SVS sub through its speaker-level inputs from the speaker-level outputs of both the HK and the Sony. If your SVS has speaker-level in & out -- then you wire the speakers through the SVS. If the SVS only has speaker-level in, then you can wire the SVS in parallel with the speakers (confirm with your owners manual, but the SVS input should be very high impedance so that connecting it in parallel is transparent to your speakers).

My experience is that, for 2-channel music (not movies!), driving the sub by speaker-level is better than line-level/LFE (because the sub sees the exact same signal out of the receiver amp as the speakers). Others will argue otherwise that speaker-level is worse because of infinitesimal distortion added by the receiver amp. In any case, driving by speakers doesn't sound worse than line level (for music). Once connected, use the sub controls to tune it to the speakers.
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post #52 of 430 Old 10-22-2019, 09:18 AM
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I understand what this gentleman tried to say, regardless of the Opposition...
Most everyone understood what he was saying...it's just that some chose to take it 100% literal to try and argue about something that didn't necessarily need an argument.
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post #53 of 430 Old 10-22-2019, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Lefty71 View Post
\ The addition of the Bluetooth, DLNA and satallite radio features, over the Sony, don't justify the .1. Again, thanks for the replies.
Also, you can use an external device for adding Bluetooth/Sat/DLNA to any vintage receiver. I'm using Chromecast Audio on the Rotel for Spotify, Pandora, TuneIn radio, etc. Streaming that is built into receivers eventually becomes old or obsolete, so even on modern amps, I strongly prefer using an external device for streaming anyway. Standalone AptX Bluetooth adapters are readily available and inexpensive. Streamed radio stations via TuneIn don't sound nearly as good as using the FM tuner (when listening to the same station side-by-side), so use the FM tuner when you can for local stations.

Last edited by pjp; 10-22-2019 at 09:27 AM.
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post #54 of 430 Old 10-28-2019, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
Most everyone understood what he was saying...it's just that some chose to take it 100% literal to try and argue about something that didn't necessarily need an argument.
That "some" would include me, as such, allow me to offer a reason why I chose to argue -- simply, when someone seems to enjoy generalizing and happens to apply those generalizations incorrectly it becomes a logical fallacy that disgusts me. Thus, I respond to illuminate it. The chips will fall where they may after that...in this case, I apologize for taking the thread off topic, but still felt it needed to be done. At the very least, it should have allowed the person in question to ruminate and better define their thoughts; they didn't / couldn't, so...I guess that tells me what I needed to know.
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post #55 of 430 Old 10-28-2019, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by RAART View Post
I understand what this gentleman tried to say, regardless of the Opposition...

In simple words, way back when Windows 2000 Professional was run, the PC's were more primitive however if you take the PC from that era and start a software also from that time IE. MS Word it will open almost instantaneously. Take right now a PC with modern components and and start as well MS Word, even with all that modern tech it will few seconds to start. Speak, he compared old tech with old software to equivalent today and wanted to say that PC were doing works faster then today's ones. He did not try to say that those old machines are faster then today ones.

There was no reason for heated topic in regards of this, IMHO.

Anyway, if you take the same principle to HIFI, that does not work the same since our hearing is perceptive, otherwise we wouldn't have anymore Tube Amps, Record Players, etc.

I do not have some high degree in electronics but I know a lot about HiFi since I grew up with tube amps, record players, solid state amps, etc. Even when I was young I had reference equipment for that time and for sure can draw the difference between old and new stuff.

Anyway, I do not want to spill fuel on fire nor to engage in some heated conversation therefore I will post this and I am out of this thread.

Have fun folks!
Also, there is a line to draw when the modern programs are getting unnecessary complicated. Most of the older software running on old PC can do the same thing as the new ones with new software. The newer software just have more different ways to do the same task so people "have" the choice to do it the way they prefer instead of you have to do it is one and only one way. To me, that cause more confusion.

Back to the car, the 2018 car has 3 mouse pads on top of the joystick, all pretty much can do everything. So you have 4 different ways to perform the same task. To save money on keys, instead of the normal 10 button ( 0..9) key pad to set radio station, now you use the mouse or mouse pads to navigate in order to change the station. The worst is you can accidentally open a page by accidentally touching one of the mouse and you have to take steps to go back......while you are driving. Then it's so slow to response.......AND the worst is all the BUGS!!! The thing never work right.

Some people just mesmerized by all the new features, new apps and all. They brag about all the features. I want to get the job done, fast and right.

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post #56 of 430 Old 10-29-2019, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post

Back to the car, the 2018 car has 3 mouse pads on top of the joystick, all pretty much can do everything. So you have 4 different ways to perform the same task. To save money on keys, instead of the normal 10 button ( 0..9) key pad to set radio station, now you use the mouse or mouse pads to navigate in order to change the station. The worst is you can accidentally open a page by accidentally touching one of the mouse and you have to take steps to go back......while you are driving. Then it's so slow to response.......AND the worst is all the BUGS!!! The thing never work right.
But, they have added lane detection and front end collision sensing so they you do not wreck while you are trying to use your radio.
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post #57 of 430 Old 10-29-2019, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
That "some" would include me, as such, allow me to offer a reason why I chose to argue -- simply, when someone seems to enjoy generalizing and happens to apply those generalizations incorrectly it becomes a logical fallacy that disgusts me. Thus, I respond to illuminate it. The chips will fall where they may after that...in this case, I apologize for taking the thread off topic, but still felt it needed to be done. At the very least, it should have allowed the person in question to ruminate and better define their thoughts; they didn't / couldn't, so...I guess that tells me what I needed to know.

You chose to take a casual comment and made a point of over-analyzing it. That seems to be status quo in here, however.


I think this video sums up a lot of "the point" that was more casual than factual.

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post #58 of 430 Old 10-29-2019, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by golfster View Post
But, they have added lane detection and front end collision sensing so they you do not wreck while you are trying to use your radio.
Speaking of these, The car beep all over the place........The only time it did NOT beep was when I backed into another car and caused an accident!! Another time it did not beep was a car drift into my lane. The good all the beeping and detection did for me.

Read the long term car review in Motor Trend on the Subaru, all the beep beep beep.


Also, speaking of adjusting radio, my 2014 have the key pad like the older cars, I change the station by just push the number button, adjust the volume by a knob. It's so easy you don't have to take your eyes off the road. Not like you have to use the touch pad, look at the screen to get to the right page, then turn the joy stick to adjust the station.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 10-29-2019 at 10:53 AM.
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post #59 of 430 Old 10-29-2019, 10:55 AM
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BEEP!!!!!!!
This is 2 channel audio forum.
Let's move along from software, computers and cars please?
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #60 of 430 Old 10-30-2019, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
BEEP!!!!!!!
This is 2 channel audio forum.
Let's move along from software, computers and cars please?
Yep, somewhere we got in the wrong lane and took an exit onto another route.
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