My imagination, or can a 20 amp circuit make an audible difference? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
All the stuffs we are talking are all electromagnetics that govern by 4 main equation that do NOT have a simple explanation.

There is no other way I know of to explain those noise induction and ways to fix it.

If anyone can explain so layman can understand, I bowl down to you. I spent years studying this and I have yet to find an easy explanation.

I am not trying to brag about my knowledge, it just cannot be explained in simple term, it just is.


, I just cannot really understand because I was expecting to have a simple way to explain it.


I kept asking the professor until one day the professor said to me "Alan, you are NOT going to understand it, just keep studying and working on it, one day, you will get the feel of it when you get your PhD." I actual quit Chemistry after I realize that, that a lot of things just DO NOT have explanation and they called it SCIENCE.


When I studied Electromagnetics, I accepted that I am not going to really understand it, just trust it and be good in using the formulas.
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I take that you really understand what we are talking about. You should put in your reasoning, I love to hear it, maybe I can learn something the book didn't show.

I cannot explain it in simple terms.
Either way.... the OP is happy.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #92 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 11:42 AM
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"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge".
Daniel Boorstin

................Seems like the hard part is the self awareness to figure out what category of knowledge, ignorance or illusion you fall into.

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post #93 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 11:48 AM
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Occam's razor is often cited in stronger forms than Occam intended, as in the following statements. . .
"If you have two theories that both explain the observed facts, then you should use the simplest until more evidence comes along"
"The simplest explanation for some phenomenon is more likely to be accurate than more complicated explanations."
"If you have two equally likely solutions to a problem, choose the simplest."
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
. . .or in the only form that takes its own advice. . .
"Keep things simple!"

making sure to cite the source:


http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...ral/occam.html



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #94 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
I cannot explain it in simple terms.
Either way.... the OP is happy.
Just try, I love to hear it. OP is happy, it already evolved into a different discussion. Feel free to contribute.....I mean actually contribute.

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post #95 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Did you follow the discussion, the discussion was why, not how to fix it.

Are you kidding. You weave and bob so much with disconnected thoughts that there is not intelligible discussion on your part. A large portion of posts on this thread are from you yet there is zero advancement of information on ANYTHING. The only reason to discuss noise is because it is a problem.


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BTW, since you understand electromagnetics really well, can you teach me how to explain the 4 equation in very simple layman term? I really open to learn.

Maxwell's equations are very simple ones that describe the relationship between magnetic flux, distance, and electric current/voltage (and can be adjusted for various medium's dielectric properties). They have a time component because you must have a changing current/voltage to induce on another circuit via flux. In terms of discussion of EMI/RFI noise, you must have a varying source to get an induced noise on another circuit. That can result a 60 hz hum from AC changing direction, or it can be the on/off noise from a switching circuit, or an RF source, etc.



But you don't have to understand that to deal with noise. Noise can be dealt with by isolation, dampening, filtering, or source removal (or a combination). Sometimes it can be tricky but measuring and applying know fixes will generally mitigate the problem without ever having to do a Maxwell's equation calculation. The work is already done. Just like you don't have to understand the formula for making rubber tires in order to select good ones.
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post #96 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
OP is happy, it already evolved into a different discussion.
Wonder how that happened?
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #97 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
Are you kidding. You weave and bob so much with disconnected thoughts that there is not intelligible discussion on your part.



But you don't have to understand that to deal with noise. Noise can be dealt with by isolation, dampening, filtering, or source removal (or a combination).
If it's already there.

(Bold emphasis mine)



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #98 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
Are you kidding. You weave and bob so much with disconnected thoughts that there is not intelligible discussion on your part. A large portion of posts on this thread are from you yet there is zero advancement of information on ANYTHING. The only reason to discuss noise is because it is a problem.





Maxwell's equations are very simple ones that describe the relationship between magnetic flux, distance, and electric current/voltage (and can be adjusted for various medium's dielectric properties). They have a time component because you must have a changing current/voltage to induce on another circuit via flux. In terms of discussion of EMI/RFI noise, you must have a varying source to get an induced noise on another circuit. That can result a 60 hz hum from AC changing direction, or it can be the on/off noise from a switching circuit, or an RF source, etc.



But you don't have to understand that to deal with noise. Noise can be dealt with by isolation, dampening, filtering, or source removal (or a combination). Sometimes it can be tricky but measuring and applying know fixes will generally mitigate the problem without ever having to do a Maxwell's equation calculation. The work is already done. Just like you don't have to understand the formula for making rubber tires in order to select good ones.

OK, let me ask you why noise get into power lines? It's supposed to be 0ohm dead short in the power station. If it's is 0ohm, no noise can get onto the power line.

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post #99 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
People ask why the noise, did you read that? Why the power line is not a short circuit, why power line transmit noise. Did you read the post? The original argument is the power line behaves like a short circuit from the power station and noise cannot get in. You read that? I think you should read the thread first before you talk. Then you can explain with your simplistic term. I love to hear it.


BTW, what kind of design are you doing?

Ahh, there we go. Deflection. I am not DOING any design, I never claimed I did and it means absolutely NOTHING if I am or am not. It means absolutely NOTHING if you are or aren't as well, as neither will have any effect on an existing noise situation.



As for noise 'getting in', I really don't think that's a meaningful description. But you don't need Maxwell's equations to measure noise and determine that certain things must not be the source. And you have not basis to just assume there is noise without specifying what exact noise you are talking about. Better to talk in terms of how noise problems are mitigated.


The "noise" from a power plant is a 60hz hum. We've designed things to mitigate that noise, amp limit of circuit really isn't related.

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post #100 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
It's supposed to be 0ohm dead short in the power station. If it's is 0ohm, no noise can get onto the power line.

This statement makes no sense. What two points are you specifically talking about being shorted? What specific noise are you referring to?

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post #101 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:12 PM
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OK, let me ask you why noise get into power lines? It's supposed to be 0ohm dead short in the power station. If it's is 0ohm, no noise can get onto the power line.
Because it's there. Good power design of amps usually resolves that issue. (you should know that, right?)

If everything was "perfect" with clean power and no induced noise from utilities and contractors.... most shysters would not still be in business.



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post #102 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:13 PM
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This statement makes no sense. What two points are you specifically talking about being shorted? What specific noise are you referring to?



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #103 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:16 PM
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This statement makes no sense. What two points are you specifically talking about being shorted? What specific noise are you referring to?
At the power station. That's the question someone asked. Noise on the power line injected by other electronics. Read the thread.

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post #104 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:18 PM
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Ahh, there we go. Deflection. I am not DOING any design, I never claimed I did and it means absolutely NOTHING if I am or am not. It means absolutely NOTHING if you are or aren't as well, as neither will have any effect on an existing noise situation.



As for noise 'getting in', I really don't think that's a meaningful description. But you don't need Maxwell's equations to measure noise and determine that certain things must not be the source. And you have not basis to just assume there is noise without specifying what exact noise you are talking about. Better to talk in terms of how noise problems are mitigated.


The "noise" from a power plant is a 60hz hum. We've designed things to mitigate that noise, amp limit of circuit really isn't related.
Forget this, It's no point talking on this, just answer the questions I repeat from what people asked.

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post #105 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:21 PM
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Because it's there. Good power design of amps usually resolves that issue. (you should know that, right?)

If everything was "perfect" with clean power and no induced noise from utilities and contractors.... most shysters would not still be in business.

Yes, a good designed amp will work, but what if it's is not, can you tell me why? That's the question asked.

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post #106 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:22 PM
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Forget this, It's no point talking on this,
Yes!



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post #107 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:22 PM
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At the power station. That's the question someone asked. Noise on the power line injected by other electronics. Read the thread.

So, you don't know what points being shorted you are talking about. You don't know what noise you are talking about? Then you blame it on someone else? Why are you even talking about it at all without determining those critical pieces of information? Without that, its just meaningless babble, yet you seem to be fine in going on about it.....amazing.
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post #108 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:25 PM
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Yes, a good designed amp will work, but what if it's is not, can you tell me why? That's the question asked.
Can you tell everyone how to determine what it's not and why it's not and the best steps to take to resolve?



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein

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post #109 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:28 PM
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Can you tell everyone why if it's not and why it's not.

Read post #59 and #60 . In detail why and how to fix it. Did you read those?

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So, you don't know what points being shorted you are talking about. You don't know what noise you are talking about? Then you blame it on someone else? Why are you even talking about it at all without determining those critical pieces of information? Without that, its just meaningless babble, yet you seem to be fine in going on about it.....amazing.

You are going in circles, read post #54 and follow that through. Now I know you never even read.

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post #111 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:35 PM
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Read post #59 and #60 . In detail why and how to fix it. Did you read those?
Yes.

Helping or trying to "teach"?



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post #112 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:45 PM
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You are going in circles, read post #54 and follow that through. Now I know you never even read.

It doesn't matter if you are going to ask questions to me when you don't know what you are asking. That's the inherent problem. You are responding to posts without specifically asking what they mean. I was responding to what YOU said.


As for post 54, if you look at the transmission/distribution network as a system and not as a plant and a line to your house, you could effectively discuss it in terms of a zero impedance source behind your distribution transformer. But that's kind of meaningless in terms of where noise comes from or goes. If you are talking about a local power supply, the question is the same. You still have to ask "what noise, from where?"

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post #113 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 02:59 PM
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I recently discovered that the three main outlets I use in the basement are all on the same circuit. I was concerned I had too much connected and running at the same time. Some of those included my 2 channel system, a dehumidifier, my elliptical machine, the TV and soundbar, my dog's invisible fence, plus a few other smaller items. All in, there where at least 11 things connected. Luckily, my subwoofer is on a different circuit. I normally listen to the stereo while working out on the elliptical, with the TV on with no sound. In the summer, my dehumidifier will also be running. I decided to have a separate 20 amp line installed.

I connected my stereo rack and the elliptical to the dedicated 20 amp circuit today. It could be my imagination, but as soon as I turned on the stereo, I thought sounded noticeably better. The music sounded much cleaner, more powerful and detailed. Could there be something to this?
You may find these videos very informative.

Skip to 5:21 on the first video



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post #114 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 03:49 PM
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T Either way, I am glad I ran the extra circuit. If nothing else, I have piece of mind that I am not overloading anything. Did my 2 channel system benefit audibly? Probably not. It just sounds really good to me right now.
Best lesson taught.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #115 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 04:07 PM
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It doesn't matter if you are going to ask questions to me when you don't know what you are asking. That's the inherent problem. You are responding to posts without specifically asking what they mean. I was responding to what YOU said.


As for post 54, if you look at the transmission/distribution network as a system and not as a plant and a line to your house, you could effectively discuss it in terms of a zero impedance source behind your distribution transformer. But that's kind of meaningless in terms of where noise comes from or goes. If you are talking about a local power supply, the question is the same. You still have to ask "what noise, from where?"
Do you even comprehend what his question? Or you just argue for the sake of arguing? He meant if the transmission station is 0ohm, then no noise can inject into the power line as it's 0ohm. Read the question carefully and answer the question. We are going nowhere are you are not reading, just come here to argue blindly.


It is you that said you know your stuffs, and everything can be explained easily. So far I patiently asking you simple question like those post, it's been 3 posts and you say nothing yet.



BTW, you have an EE degree, and you are not designing anything? What happened?

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post #116 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
He meant if the transmission station is 0ohm, then no noise can inject into the power line as it's 0ohm.

What specifically is "0 ohm" at the "transmission station"? These are YOUR words. Explain them. Don't deflect.
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post #117 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 04:35 PM
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BTW, you have an EE degree, and you are not designing anything? What happened?

So, you somehow imagine that all EE's do is sit around designing things? Far from reality. EE's manage systems, manage projects, inspect products and systems, buy electrical products to spec, run businesses, sell products, .... the list goes on.


But, I've spend many years designing, maintaining, and modifying nuclear plant power and control systems, among other things. Now I do cyber security work. Life happened. Growth happened. Opportunity happened.

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post #118 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 05:04 PM
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I experienced this beginning a couple weeks ago. I had THREE dedicated 20 amp lines added to the one 15 amp circuit that powers our media room. Before the install I was also using a heavy 12 gauge extension cord from a separate circuit in the room down the hall to power the sub. After having the three new lines installed, making 75 amps available to the room, I do seem to notice a difference, particularly in spaciousness. I wasn't expecting an improvement and I do find it hard to believe but, foregoing the use of fancy adjectives, everything just sounds better. Even my wife noticed the difference. And I got rid of that unsightly extension cord running across the house. A very smile-inducing upgrade!

SPEAKERS: 7.1 Def Tech Mythos ST L/R | Mythos 10 C | Mythos Gem XL S/R
SUB: SVS PB4000

RECEIVER: Cambridge Audio 751R
DISPLAY: Sony 75" XBR900E SOURCES: Sony UBP-X800 4K disc player, PS3, PS4
MISC: Harmony Elite remote

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post #119 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
BTW, you have an EE degree, and you are not designing anything? What happened?
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So, you somehow imagine that all EE's do is sit around designing things? .
That's a self-accreditation for those seeking to become an internet EE.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #120 of 131 Old 11-02-2019, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by VooBass View Post
Even my wife noticed the difference.
Never heard that before!



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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