Classe Amp/B & W 702 S2/Rotel Sounds Horrible - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
Did you purchase the Classe CA-200 power amp new? I'm just curious.
Now I'm curious. What are you betting on and why?
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post #32 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 11:41 AM
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No, I'm not a betting man. However, your amp is over 20 years old. Have the caps ever been replaced?

Save your money.
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post #33 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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No, I'm not a betting man. However, your amp is over 20 years old. Have the caps ever been replaced?
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post #34 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Stereophile's John Atkinson had this to say about your B&W's measured performance (link below): "...these graphs suggest that experimenting with speaker toe-in and the listener's ear height will be necessary to get the most neutral treble balance from this speaker."

Indeed, as already stated in this thread, experiment first with positioning to find out if you can achieve an enjoyable sound quality.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...s2-loudspeaker

Having read Mr. Atkinson's reviews over the years let me translate the quote above. First some general help with translations:

o In review - in normal words

o Uniformly excellent - excellent

o Excellent, but a small item - very good at most

o Consistent or uniform or good engineering - average

o Overall good, but his concerned me - avoid

o More than one problem noted, or takes care in setup, experimentation required, etc. - run, don't wank away - This appears to be where the 702 S2 falls...


OK, why is that?

o Non-uniform response on axis, which is the most important factor in speakers according to Floyd Toole. This means don't buy the speaker. There are better choices. This isn't a family member or a losing local sports team. Walk away...

o Very uneven response off axis. It would be necessary to a absorb all of the off axis response. This is unacceptable.


What to buy?

o Revel make some excellent speakers starting with the F208. Used Salon2's can often be had for only an arm, not an arm and a leg.

o Most speakers, higher end Revels excepted, tend to be uneven off axis at say 45 degrees at least in the horizontal plane. This is due to a change in the dispersion characteristics between woofer (or mid-range) and tweeter. Two-way speakers (think bookshelf's) are often particularly bad. Speakers with a 1st or 2nd order crossover to the tweeter, which results in the crossover to the tweeter being at a high frequency, accentuate this issue. The elevated response from the tweeter off axis is in the frequency range where the ear is most sensitive adds to the problem. In turn the response from the mid-range or woofer has fallen off axis before the crossover to the tweeter.

The off-axis response of the 702 S2 in Fig. 5 of the Stereophile piece clearly shows this effect. This is likely the most common reason why many speakers sound harsh.

3-way speakers with 4th order crossovers are usually more expensive, but have some inherent advantages. Treatment of the side walls at reflection points with 4" of fiberglass would be a good idea for far too many speakers.
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post #35 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 03:32 PM
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As a hifi amp designer, I am not sure recapping is what it's hyped to be. Few years ago when I first got into designing amps, I bought a Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 designed by famous Nelson Pass. It's like 30+ years old, I took pictures of the noise and ripple of the big filter caps and asked on DIYaudio forum and confirmed that it's time to change those caps. I spent $120 buying the new caps and changed them myself. NOT A DAMN OF A DIFFERENCE IN THE SOUND.


My Acurus has been in constant use (5+hrs/day) for 16 years before I retired it. Sounded as good the last day as the first day. Far as I concern, I look at those caps, if it is not leaking or bulging out on the top, I would not be dying to change them.


As an engineer for decades, if it's not broken, don't fix it!!!


One question I need to ask Timestoo, what speaker cable you use. You have very nice amp and speakers, I hope you use something better than just any 12 gauge wires. It's my opinion from engineering and practical point of view the speaker cables is AS IMPORTANT as the speakers and amp. The system is only as good as the weakest link of the system. I am not the one that push for more expensive the better. I don't believe in spending a lot of money on those RCA interconnect, but I do pay a lot of attention on the speaker cable. I am born cheap, I build my own speaker cables from engineering point of view and I got tremendous result.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #36 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
As a hifi amp designer, I am not sure recapping is what it's hyped to be. Few years ago when I first got into designing amps, I bought a Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 designed by famous Nelson Pass. It's like 30+ years old, I took pictures of the noise and ripple of the big filter caps and asked on DIYaudio forum and confirmed that it's time to change those caps. I spent $120 buying the new caps and changed them myself. NOT A DAMN OF A DIFFERENCE IN THE SOUND.


My Acurus has been in constant use (5+hrs/day) for 16 years before I retired it. Sounded as good the last day as the first day. Far as I concern, I look at those caps, if it is not leaking or bulging out on the top, I would not be dying to change them.


As an engineer for decades, if it's not broken, don't fix it!!!


One question I need to ask Timestoo, what speaker cable you use. You have very nice amp and speakers, I hope you use something better than just any 12 gauge wires. It's my opinion from engineering and practical point of view the speaker cables is AS IMPORTANT as the speakers and amp. The system is only as good as the weakest link of the system. I am not the one that push for more expensive the better. I don't believe in spending a lot of money on those RCA interconnect, but I do pay a lot of attention on the speaker cable. I am born cheap, I build my own speaker cables from engineering point of view and I got tremendous result.
This is what I have and noticed it is only 14 AWG....

AudioQuest X-2 bulk speaker cable - 14 AWG

The negative thoughts and comments have me tossing and turning at night. Why would such a great MFG as B & W design and market such a speaker as what is being described?

I'm trying to get things finished here so I can experiment with positioning.
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post #37 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Stereophile's John Atkinson had this to say about your B&W's measured performance (link below): "...these graphs suggest that experimenting with speaker toe-in and the listener's ear height will be necessary to get the most neutral treble balance from this speaker."

Indeed, as already stated in this thread, experiment first with positioning to find out if you can achieve an enjoyable sound quality.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...s2-loudspeaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Having read Mr. Atkinson's reviews over the years let me translate the quote above.

o More than one problem noted, or takes care in setup, experimentation required, etc. - run, don't wank away - This appears to be where the 702 S2 falls...

o Non-uniform response on axis, which is the most important factor in speakers according to Floyd Toole. This means don't buy the speaker. There are better choices. This isn't a family member or a losing local sports team. Walk away...
I will assume that you are not translating JA's comments for my benefit. (Also, in my opinion, his analysis does not require any translation.)

As soon as I saw JA's frequency response graphs it became obvious why the B&Ws are fatiguing. I, too, would have run away.

But the OP owns them and thus many here, myself included, have been doing our best to help him find solutions that might make them sonically enjoyable.

My ears are extremely intolerant of upper midrange and treble emphasis, but many other listeners tolerate it to a greater degree. A little reduction in that frequency region might be enough to please the OP's ears. I do hope, though, that if all else fails that the B&Ws might still be returnable to the dealer, as I inquired in Post 28.

Music room: Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000II linear-tracking turntable.
Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.
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post #38 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
Why would such a great MFG as B & W design and market such a speaker as what is being described?
MSchott provided the answer in Post 12: "Everyone has their own taste in sound."

Music room: Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000II linear-tracking turntable.
Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.
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post #39 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 05:48 PM
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i own some klipsch towers that can be harsh. even with eq like -5 treble they can still be harsh. its more than measurements or positioning that cause ear fatigue. with all that I can still get my klipsch to sound fantastic, just at very reduced volumes.

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post #40 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
This is what I have and noticed it is only 14 AWG....

AudioQuest X-2 bulk speaker cable - 14 AWG

The negative thoughts and comments have me tossing and turning at night. Why would such a great MFG as B & W design and market such a speaker as what is being described?

I'm trying to get things finished here so I can experiment with positioning.

OH!!! 14 gauge is NOT even close to good enough. I am not saying this is the cause of your problem, BUT my experience is the speaker cable has a lot to do with the sound stage. If not for anything, double up the speaker cables. This is what I build on my speaker cables. As I said, I am born cheap, I don't buy into any of the exotic metal cables, it's pure engineering with reason behind it. Read post #11 in this thread. I posted how I make my cables. My speakers and amps are at least mid/hi level, it makes a day and night difference with the cable.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...o-excited.html


I don't know whether you are handy to make this. It's $30 dollars for a pair. Let me know if you are adventurous to try. I'll give you more guidance in building it if you are interested. No need to pay $100 or more for speaker cables.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #41 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I do hope, though, that if all else fails that the B&Ws might still be returnable to the dealer, as I inquired in Post 28.[/QUOTE]

Sorry for not replying but they are mine, non returnable.

Alan, I'm always on the cheap if possible & interested. Thanks
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post #42 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 11:19 PM
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So far, quite a few people had given suggestion, what have you tried so far and how did that work out?


This is a trial and error type of thing, you need to try the suggestions as long as you don't have to spend money.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #43 of 115 Old 11-10-2019, 11:53 PM
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B&W 705 S2 is one of the best sounding speakers I have heard with 2 channel music, I heard the 805 D3 Diamond series speaker too and it came off as a little bright, the 705 S2 sounds just right. I am convinced that 2 way crossover speakers are better with music. I demoed the 702 S2 and that's a 3 way and I preferred how 705 sounded. And I'm coming from no slouch of a speaker -Monitor Audio Gold 300- is what I owned before moving to the 705 S2 and with music I find the latter is better. With movies they are good enough but not great.

The 700 series can be run using AVR's too (you can use external amps) but a high end AVR can power them fine.
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post #44 of 115 Old 11-11-2019, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
So far, quite a few people had given suggestion, what have you tried so far and how did that work out?


This is a trial and error type of thing, you need to try the suggestions as long as you don't have to spend money.
Alan, Today is the last rooms getting carpet installed. We have more stuff than needed and my back pain proves it. It will be a week before "my room" gets attention.

I have an Anthem MRX 720 driving the theater side. I really wanted to use the Classe but do you think the MRX would be better because I can set the values going to the 702's?
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post #45 of 115 Old 11-11-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
Alan, Today is the last rooms getting carpet installed. We have more stuff than needed and my back pain proves it. It will be a week before "my room" gets attention.

I have an Anthem MRX 720 driving the theater side. I really wanted to use the Classe but do you think the MRX would be better because I can set the values going to the 702's?

I have no idea on MRX. You have an Anthem, try that and see whether there is any difference from the Classe. This is all trial and error.


Anyway, regardless of the result, speaker position, you need to pay attention to the speaker cables, I proved the importance from both electronic measurement and actual listening. It's NOT the resistance of the cable that matter, it's the INDUCTANCE that matter, you need more cables doubling up to lower inductance. The size of the cable really doesn't matter. That's the reason I use a few pairs of 16 gauge cables together to make the cable. Forget what special material ( like oxygen free copper or something more exotic), it's the number of smaller cables that matter. I use the cheapest of the cheap copper clad cables on ebay to make my cable. I tried oxygen free copper to make the same cable, not a damn of a difference. This is engineering. The result is the sound stage really comes out. Remember, the system is only as good as the weakest link. My friend brought over his cable that is over $100, he reluctantly had to agree my el cheapo home built cable sounded better.


I did not invent the cables, the idea is like Kimber Kables. They are more extreme, they use many smaller cables knitted together. Problem with those are the capacitance are very high, it's like 5000pF, not many power amp can deal with this high capacitance and become unstable and it might sound funny. My cheap cable is about 2500pF, it's easier on the amp. BUT NOT ALL AMP can deal with this also. My Nakamichi sounded a little funny even with my cable. I tested the Nakamichi, the margin of stability is not good. There goes to show just because it's designed by the famous Nelson Pass does not guaranty it's good. Bottom line is try and see whether your Classe can handle it. It's $30 and one hour to build it.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 11-11-2019 at 10:46 AM.
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post #46 of 115 Old 11-11-2019, 12:49 PM
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You can try EQ, but this is not guaranteed to work.
You can try make your room better but this is not guaranteed to work either.
Changing speakers almost 100% guaranteed to work.
Another working option is just listen to them - you'll get used to it unless you constantly have another reference.



But first just check your hearing, maybe you just having troubles there and speakers are your last problems atm?

Last edited by aats; 11-11-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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post #47 of 115 Old 11-11-2019, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
I have an Anthem MRX 720 driving the theater side. I really wanted to use the Classe but do you think the MRX would be better because I can set the values going to the 702's?
I cannot think of a better solid-state power amp match for the B&Ws than your Classe CA-200. The CA-200's easygoing and laid-back upper midrange and treble are ideal for the speakers. For many years dealers often demoed B&Ws with Classe gear for that reason. As you probably know, B&W owned Classe from 2001 until early 2018 (purchased by Sound United). B&W voiced their speakers with Classe amplifiers, likely including your 702s, which were released in 2017.

I wish you had mentioned earlier that you own an Anthem MRX 720 AV receiver. You can temporarily connect the Anthem's front left and right preamp outputs to the Classe and conduct tests with the Anthem's tone controls and equalization after you re-install the room's furnishings and find the best possible speaker positioning. This might just work out fine.

Music room: Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000II linear-tracking turntable.
Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.
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post #48 of 115 Old 11-11-2019, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
I cannot think of a better solid-state power amp match for the B&Ws than your Classe CA-200. The CA-200's easygoing and laid-back upper midrange and treble are ideal for the speakers. For many years dealers often demoed B&Ws with Classe gear for that reason. As you probably know, B&W owned Classe from 2001 until early 2018 (purchased by Sound United). B&W voiced their speakers with Classe amplifiers, likely including your 702s, which were released in 2017.

Alex, I did know some of this an one of the reasons I chose the 702's.


I wish you had mentioned earlier that you own an Anthem MRX 720 AV receiver. You can temporarily connect the Anthem's front left and right preamp outputs to the Classe and conduct tests with the Anthem's tone controls and equalization after you re-install the room's furnishings and find the best possible speaker positioning. This might just work out fine.
Sorry about that but it is not too late. I have at least a week before testing some of the great suggestions offered here and for that, thanks to everyone!

On the theater side I have:
Anthem MRX 720
Anthem MCA 325
Oppo UDP-203
Rotel RB-1050 (2X)
Panamax 5300

Last edited by Timestoo; 11-11-2019 at 04:00 PM.
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post #49 of 115 Old 11-11-2019, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
I have at least a week before testing some of the great suggestions offered here and for that, thanks to everyone!
Please update us with your findings, whether good or bad.

Music room: Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000II linear-tracking turntable.
Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.
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post #50 of 115 Old 11-12-2019, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Please update us with your findings, whether good or bad.
I sure will & hope I can sort it out with good news! Again, thanks
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post #51 of 115 Old 11-12-2019, 10:23 AM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
Sorry about that but it is not too late. I have at least a week before testing some of the great suggestions offered here and for that, thanks to everyone!

On the theater side I have:
Anthem MRX 720
Anthem MCA 325
Oppo UDP-203
Rotel RB-1050 (2X)
Panamax 5300
Rotel RB-1050 is too bright... I have the same amp as well as RC-1070.
When I played RC-1070 with RB-1050 the sound was fatiguing but when I switched to RB-1562 the speakers (PSB GB1) started to behave really good. Then I connected RB-1050 to Wharfedale D220 with sub D10 and this combination was nice, as the high notes were recessed on D220.

I do not have now the Mogami speaker cables but I remember that they were slightly on the darker side but still have resolution. I have currently Canare 4S11 between RC-1070 and RB-1562, bi-wired to PSB GB1 and this combination sounds superb. I have also DH Labs T-14 speaker cables and this cable has a very low capacitance of 21.5 pico-farads per foot but it is highly resolving. I never tried that cable on any Rotel combination, just between Yamaha WXA-50 and Totem Mite's.

I believe that Mogami W3104 will be a good match for your BW speakers.

To eliminate the possibility of pre-amp... Did you try to connect something else directly to power amp that has variable volume control ie. chromeaudio or some other dac to see how it is sounding.

Just my 0.2c

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post #52 of 115 Old 11-12-2019, 12:36 PM
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Sometimes the sun is too bright, so I wear some glasses and I've noticed that they are slightly on the darker side, but they still get me through the bright, fatiguing sun. A sun visor is very resolving as well. And whenever I wear those glasses, the music sounds superb.

Save your money.
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post #53 of 115 Old 11-12-2019, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
Alan, Today is the last rooms getting carpet installed. We have more stuff than needed and my back pain proves it. It will be a week before "my room" gets attention.

I have an Anthem MRX 720 driving the theater side. I really wanted to use the Classe but do you think the MRX would be better because I can set the values going to the 702's?
I'm kind of amazed...room correction software should fix this. I'm 99% sure.
I don't believe Rotel uses any room correction and Anthem is generally regarded as one of the better ones for that.
I'd run room correction with the Anthem connected to your amp of choice powering the speakers.
That should fix it.

The 702's are not junk. I heard them and they are very good. I'm went with the Paradigm Prestige, but the B&W were right there. Love the tweeter.
When I first hooked up my Prestige 85F's, I hated them. Swapped them out in the same spot as my Studio 60v5's. Ear fatigue. Very forward sounding. Re-ran room correction...night and day...fixed it. Now they are great.

Hope this helps.
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post #54 of 115 Old 11-12-2019, 01:31 PM
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Again, the 702's sound fantastic in a demo against other speakers. Something about them makes them "jump" out at you. But I think that might also be their undoing when placed in a home and listened to for hours at a time.


And I still don't understand why DSP room correction is "ok" and tone controls are not. If I have a speaker that I'm forced to DSP for 2-channel, I'm returning them and buying something else.
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post #55 of 115 Old 11-13-2019, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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So, if using the Anthem pre amp front L & R for both the Classe (for 2 channel) and the Anthem 325 (for surround) is there a switch recommended so I/m not swapping wires? I'm using a TC-7220 for selecting amps to one pair of speakers. I don't know why I didn't think of this..thanks
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post #56 of 115 Old 11-13-2019, 04:04 PM
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There are two people that want to build my speaker cable, so I post it here how to make it. I use any 16 gauge speaker cables from ebay, I just get the cheapest of the cheap ones. Here is an example of one I found:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Gauge-10...QAAOSwjU9ZzRCq
You can use others, I pick RED/BLACK for easy to see. You don't need to buy pure copper or oxygen free copper stuffs, you'd just wasting money. I use copper clad ( copper plated aluminum wires) ones because it's the cheapest.


For single banana connector, I use this from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


For Twin banana connectors, I use this from Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Everything is the cheapest ones.


1) Cut 5 pairs of the 16 gauge speaker cable to the length you desired PLUS 12 INCHES. The extra 10" is for shrinking when twisting the cables and for cut to match length.

2) Strip 1" of the insulation off one end of the cables, take all 5 of the stripped Red wires and twist them together and fasten to the RED post of the Twin Banana connector.

3) Twist all 5 of the stripped Black wires together and fasten to the BLACK post of the same Twin Banana connector. Now you have one end of the cables all tied to the Twin banana connector. See Picture 1.

4) Fasten the Twin banana connector somewhere that is secure. I use a vice, but you can tie to the door knob. Important thing is it has to be secure as you have to pull and tuck the cable. Make sure it will not slip off.

5) Pull all 5 pairs to make sure none of them have slack, they all have to be same length. After you get tuck them tight, either tie a knob at the other end, or tape all the ends together to prevent it from slipping. I use TIE-WRAP to hold them together. Now it's ready to be twisted.

6) If you have an electric drill, that would make the next step very easy. I just fit all 5 cables into the drill chuck and tighter the chuck to grab onto the cable ( has to be tight and not slipping). Then I pull the 5 cables tight with the drill and start spinning the drill CLOCK-WISE. Make sure you pull the drill tight and let it turn. When you feel the cable shorten about 8inches, you should have a good twist along the length of the cable. You should be ok. Put the drill on the floor and pull it tight enough to prevent the cable from self twisting.

7) If you don't have a drill. Tie something heavy on the other end and start hand twisting. Twist until you get a good twist. Rest the heavy weight on the floor and pull the cable tight to prevent it from self twisting along the length.

8) Take electrical tape and wrap it COUNTER-CLOCK-WISE starting from the Twin banana connector end. Pull the cable tight with one hand while wrapping the electrical cable. Make sure the cable is straight while you are wrapping the electrical tape. The electrical tape is wound in opposite direction of the cable, will prevent the cable from un-twisting all the way. See Picture 3.

9) Wrap the electrical tape all the way to the other end. You finish the difficult part. Last step is to put on the connector on the other end and you are done. Make sure you peel the insulation 1" off also. See Picture 2.

After you are done, you can cut off the excess copper wires sticking out of the banana connector. Make sure you recheck the screw on the banana connectors, it will get loose a little in a day or two. Tighten it again.


One word of warning, this cable is about 2500pF capacitance, there will be amps that cannot handle even 2500pF. My Nakamichi PA-7 is one of those. This is still only about half of the Kimber Kables. That's the reason a lot of amps cannot use Kimber Kables. Mine is the water down CHEAP version of Kimber Kable. I am pretty sure if the amp can handle the Kimber Kables, it should sound better than my cable. But mine is CHEAP and can easily be DIY.


There is engineering theory behind this. I explained in post #2 of this thread if anyone care to know the theory behind using 5 pairs of smaller wires. Also twisting will further reduce the inductance. All explained in post #2 :
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...an-cables.html
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Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 11-13-2019 at 04:21 PM.
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post #57 of 115 Old 11-13-2019, 07:35 PM
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I am not going to promise anything with the new cable. It's just what do you have to lose for $30 and one hour of your time.



There can be too much of a good thing. I even tried doing some funny twisting to get better coupling ( more capacitance). The sound stage got so big it's like it's too close to me and I did not like it. So I back off and still using the cable I described.


It's science.......to a certain degree, then it's listening to determine what is the best compromise. This is not an exact science. I stand by my theory, BUT, then I have to adjust to make it "less perfect" so it sound best. This is only on my setup. You have to be the judge when using on your system. It's all about try and true. Anyone tells you that a graph or theory will predict the outcome, doesn't know what they are talking about.


I love to hear feedback.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 11-13-2019 at 07:39 PM.
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post #58 of 115 Old 11-13-2019, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I am not going to promise anything with the new cable. It's just what do you have to lose for $30 and one hour of your time.



There can be too much of a good thing. I even tried doing some funny twisting to get better coupling ( more capacitance). The sound stage got so big it's like it's too close to me and I did not like it. So I back off and still using the cable I described.


It's science.......to a certain degree, then it's listening to determine what is the best compromise. This is not an exact science. I stand by my theory, BUT, then I have to adjust to make it "less perfect" so it sound best. This is only on my setup. You have to be the judge when using on your system. It's all about try and true. Anyone tells you that a graph or theory will predict the outcome, doesn't know what they are talking about.


I love to hear feedback.

Alan, you know I thanked you by PM but wanted to thank you here also!

I'm going to give it a try and ordered everything today. I also ordered some room treatment panels and hope they arrive soon.
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post #59 of 115 Old 11-13-2019, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
Alan, you know I thanked you by PM but wanted to thank you here also!

I'm going to give it a try and ordered everything today. I also ordered some room treatment panels and hope they arrive soon.

You are welcome.



Put it this way, even if the cable doesn't work out, you know for sure you have a beefier cable than your 14 gauge one. It is known that just for resistance measure, when you double up a cable, you reduce by 3 gauges. That is if you combine TWO pairs of 16 gauge speaker cables, you get equivalent of 13 gauge ( 16-3=13) speaker cable. That means if you put 4 pairs of 16 gauge cables together, you get the equivalent of 10 gauge cable ( 13-3=10). So with 5 pairs, you have a beefier cable of less than 10 gauge in resistance.


But as I explain, it's the inductance that makes the difference. It is strange ( AND it's a fact) that the inductance of a 16 gauge cable is not much higher than a 10 gauge cable. Using bigger cable ( say 8 gauge) is not even going to be half the inductance of a 16 gauge cable. Therefore the only way to reduce inductance is to pair up more cables. Using 5 pairs of 16 gauge cables like what I do literally reduce the inductance to like 1/4 of a single 10 gauge cable. This is the whole philosophy of the cable and Kimber Kables.



Kimber Kables use even more pairs of smaller cables, they knit the cables even tighter together. Their inductance must be like 1/10 of a big 10 gauge cable. But as I said, their capacitance is double of my cable, a lot of amps cannot work with those high capacitance cable and will either not work or sounds funny. Also, from my experiment, it can be too much of a good thing!!!

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #60 of 115 Old 11-14-2019, 01:49 AM
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Trying to fix something with a cable is a futile exercise. Unless this cable is so bad as a cable that it starts working as EQ or does something other what you won't expect from a cable
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Last edited by aats; 11-14-2019 at 02:22 AM.
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