Classe Amp/B & W 702 S2/Rotel Sounds Horrible - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 115 Old 11-14-2019, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
Trying to fix something with a cable is a futile exercise. Unless this cable is so bad as a cable that it starts working as EQ or does something other what you won't expect from a cable

We never say changing the cable can fix the problem, we all know that. He is using only a 14 gauge cable, it is inferior regardless whether that can fix the problem or not. This is just something on the side during the discussion. We are waiting for Timestoo to have a chance to experiment on the speaker placements when he has the place ready and he already said the place won't be ready for a few days. We are kind of killing time at the moment.

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post #62 of 115 Old 11-14-2019, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
We never say changing the cable can fix the problem, we all know that. He is using only a 14 gauge cable, it is inferior regardless whether that can fix the problem or not. This is just something on the side during the discussion. We are waiting for Timestoo to have a chance to experiment on the speaker placements when he has the place ready and he already said the place won't be ready for a few days. We are kind of killing time at the moment.
Hey Alan,

just a quick question for you... Since I got already DH Labs Silversonic T-14 but also Canare 4S11 can you tell me your opinion on those according to technical specifications...
http://canare.com/ProductItemDisplay...oductItemID=65
https://silversonic.com/products/bul...speaker-cable/

Thanks!

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post #63 of 115 Old 11-14-2019, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
So, if using the Anthem pre amp front L & R for both the Classe (for 2 channel) and the Anthem 325 (for surround) is there a switch recommended so I/m not swapping wires? I'm using a TC-7220 for selecting amps to one pair of speakers. I don't know why I didn't think of this..thanks
If you determine the TC-7220 switchbox does not cause audible degradation, then take advantage of the convenience it offers. You can check it out by inserting it between your amp and speakers and listening carefully to whether a few reference recordings sound any different than when the switchbox is not connected.

Here is a link to a recent thread about switchboxes that can connect two amps to one pair of speakers:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...ox-needed.html

After you re-assemble your room and adjust speaker positioning it would be interesting (although time consuming) to compare the sonics of (1) the Rotel preamp versus the Anthem's preamp section using the Classe amp, (2) the Classe amp versus the Anthem's power amp section using whichever preamp you like better (if there is a preference), and (3) the Anthem as a unit versus any combo.

I was happy to read in the Anthem's user manual (page 24) that the preamp section's analog inputs can be set so that "digital conversion and signal processing are bypassed," thus allowing proper comparison with the analog Rotel preamp.

Music room: Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000II linear-tracking turntable.
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post #64 of 115 Old 11-14-2019, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RAART View Post
Hey Alan,

just a quick question for you... Since I got already DH Labs Silversonic T-14 but also Canare 4S11 can you tell me your opinion on those according to technical specifications...
http://canare.com/ProductItemDisplay...oductItemID=65
https://silversonic.com/products/bul...speaker-cable/

Thanks!
I would pick Canare 4S11 out of the two. It has 4 14 gauge conductor, you can use two for each side so you get two pairs. That will reduce the inductance by 1/2.



I personally don't buy into those silver coating special copper wires. I don't know of any theory that they can lower inductance by special wires. They have formula to calculate inductance of the wire, mainly is govern by the diameter of the wire. The material really doesn't make a lot of difference.


Like I said before, resistance of the wire is really not the governing factor, it's the inductance that matter. I did provide the calculation to proof that.

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post #65 of 115 Old 11-15-2019, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
If you determine the TC-7220 switchbox does not cause audible degradation, then take advantage of the convenience it offers. You can check it out by inserting it between your amp and speakers and listening carefully to whether a few reference recordings sound any different than when the switchbox is not connected.

Here is a link to a recent thread about switchboxes that can connect two amps to one pair of speakers:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...ox-needed.html

After you re-assemble your room and adjust speaker positioning it would be interesting (although time consuming) to compare the sonics of (1) the Rotel preamp versus the Anthem's preamp section using the Classe amp, (2) the Classe amp versus the Anthem's power amp section using whichever preamp you like better (if there is a preference), and (3) the Anthem as a unit versus any combo.

I was happy to read in the Anthem's user manual (page 24) that the preamp section's analog inputs can be set so that "digital conversion and signal processing are bypassed," thus allowing proper comparison with the analog Rotel preamp.
Thanks.. So, to use the Anthem as a pre amp, I need to swap wires to each amp every time I go from Classe to MCA 325?

If the TC-7220 is a problem I will also need to switch speaker connection either at the amps or speakers? The Classe has bolt connection so not as easy as plugs.

I'm not lazy but I feel less "bad" can happen when not fiddling around with things.
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post #66 of 115 Old 11-15-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
Thanks.. So, to use the Anthem as a pre amp, I need to swap wires to each amp every time I go from Classe to MCA 325?

If the TC-7220 is a problem I will also need to switch speaker connection either at the amps or speakers? The Classe has bolt connection so not as easy as plugs.

I'm not lazy but I feel less "bad" can happen when not fiddling around with things.
Most amps should be able to accept spade lugs. Put spade lug onto the speaker cables.


I use this for more secure hookup.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


You can look for cheaper ones, but has to be heavy duty.


Ideally, after all the experimenting, one should change out all banana connectors to spade lugs, it gives more secure connection. BUT..............It's so inconvenient. I bought a set of those, so far, I only use it on my bench test setup because Banana connectors give me a little more THD distortion in measurement. Yes, when you get down to it, it does make a difference, but whether can you hear it is a different story.

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post #67 of 115 Old 11-15-2019, 02:07 PM
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Just use bare wire IMO. It does make a difference. (on your wallet).



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #68 of 115 Old 11-15-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
Thanks.. So, to use the Anthem as a pre amp, I need to swap wires to each amp every time I go from Classe to MCA 325?

If the TC-7220 is a problem I will also need to switch speaker connection either at the amps or speakers? The Classe has bolt connection so not as easy as plugs.

I'm not lazy but I feel less "bad" can happen when not fiddling around with things.
My post was about which preamps and power amps might sound better to your ears using the B&W loudspeakers. (I am assuming, based on your posts, that the B&Ws are utilized for both stereo music and AV purposes.)

For example, if you find that the Anthem's preamp section sounds better than the Rotel preamp, you can henceforth cease using the Rotel and use the Anthem preamp for both AV and music. If you like the performance of the Anthem's power amp section as much as the Classe power amp, you can use the Anthem's amp for AV and music, too. Wouldn't it be fascinating if the Anthem as a unit sounded so good that you preferred using it instead of the Rotel + Classe combo for music?

Another possibility is the combination of Anthem preamp plus Classe power amp sounding better than the other configurations. Then you would use the Classe for both AV and stereo music, eliminating both the Rotel and a switchbox (the Anthem MCA 325 or the Anthem receiver's internal power amps would drive all the other loudspeakers during multichannel usage).

In sum, I thought it would be interesting to find out which components you feel provide the best overall performance and possibly simplify day-to-day use.

Music room: Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000II linear-tracking turntable.
Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.

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post #69 of 115 Old 11-16-2019, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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My post was about which preamps and power amps might sound better to your ears using the B&W loudspeakers. (I am assuming, based on your posts, that the B&Ws are utilized for both stereo music and AV purposes.)

For example, if you find that the Anthem's preamp section sounds better than the Rotel preamp, you can henceforth cease using the Rotel and use the Anthem preamp for both AV and music. If you like the performance of the Anthem's power amp section as much as the Classe power amp, you can use the Anthem's amp for AV and music, too. Wouldn't it be fascinating if the Anthem as a unit sounded so good that you preferred using it instead of the Rotel + Classe combo for music?

Another possibility is the combination of Anthem preamp plus Classe power amp sounding better than the other configurations. Then you would use the Classe for both AV and stereo music, eliminating both the Rotel and a switchbox (the Anthem MCA 325 or the Anthem receiver's internal power amps would drive all the other loudspeakers during multichannel usage).

In sum, I thought it would be interesting to find out which components you feel provide the best overall performance and possibly simplify day-to-day use.
Alex, I did understand that post and looking forward to this evaluation. I was asking about the switch box(es) to prepare incase one is need.

I've been researching room treatment and have some ideas that may delay the finished product for a while. I will post some pics when finished, thanks to all!
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post #70 of 115 Old 11-16-2019, 10:40 AM
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Alex, I did understand that post and looking forward to this evaluation. I was asking about the switch box(es) to prepare incase one is need.

I've been researching room treatment and have some ideas that may delay the finished product for a while. I will post some pics when finished, thanks to all!

You mean amp/speaker cable switch box? Be careful on that. The switch box degrade sound quality. For preamp RCA, it's ok. I'll talk more if it's for speaker/amp switch box.


BTW, don't put too much hope on the speaker cables that you are going to build, it's all trial and error. I can assure you it's very critical if your speakers are 4ohm and are difficult to drive. For easy to drive speakers, you just have to try and see. It's only about $30 and 1 hour labor.

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You mean amp/speaker cable switch box? Be careful on that. The switch box degrade sound quality. For preamp RCA, it's ok. I'll talk more if it's for speaker/amp switch box.


BTW, don't put too much hope on the speaker cables that you are going to build, it's all trial and error. I can assure you it's very critical if your speakers are 4ohm and are difficult to drive. For easy to drive speakers, you just have to try and see. It's only about $30 and 1 hour labor.
If I discover the Anthem with ARC sounds better than using the Rotel preamp, I wondered if there is a switch with a preamp in(from the Anthem) to an "A"(say to the Classe) & "B"(to the MCA 325) preamp out?

Speaker cables were needed anyway and will be making them.
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post #72 of 115 Old 11-16-2019, 11:39 AM
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If I discover the Anthem with ARC sounds better than using the Rotel preamp, I wondered if there is a switch with a preamp in(from the Anthem) to an "A"(say to the Classe) & "B"(to the MCA 325) preamp out?

Speaker cables were needed anyway and will be making them.

OK, no problem using switch box to switch preamps. It's much less critical for preamp connections.

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post #73 of 115 Old 11-16-2019, 12:54 PM
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That's the very thing I got quite an improvement with the speaker placement and angle. Of cause my experience only applies to my speakers, but worth a try. With my right placement, I can literally hear the singers in front of me, a little in front of the plane of the speaker. It's just sweet.


I remember just two days ago, I felt the sound is a little off, the sound stage was less. I checked, my big boss moved the left speaker a little farther and turn the speaker slightly because it blocked the tv a little. I moved it back and everything is A OK again. It's that critical, she never told me, I just heard the change and I have to move it back. I am talking about 2" farther and slight change of the angle!!!! It's that sensitive.


Until you exhaust the placement experiment, don't even spend a penny just yet. Don't quote me on this, My experience and from what I read, all the room treatment are more effective on the bass or lower frequency, if you are complaining about the high is fatigue, I am not sure those room treatment can get you there. But, what do I know on this.


Yes, check the wiring. I thought I knew better, one time when I was testing amps with people, it just did not sound as good, NOBODY realize the problem. I use bi-wiring, that is I have separate speaker cables to drive the woofer and separate cable driving the mid/tweeter. I had the woofer wired correctly, but mid/tweeter was off phase. It really not as obvious as people think. The most obvious of off phase is the bass, if the bass is correct, it's a lot harder to tell. It just didn't sound as good.
+1
Placement is key with the 702 S2s. The mid-range driver has a high crossover. My guess is B&W really wanted to focus on midrange (where most of the content is anyway). I think it is 4 kHz. This is one of the reasons the speaker can sound harsh. I think there is also a significant dip around 2 kHz. From reviews I've read having the speakers facing straight ahead or toed in are not the best options. Apparently having the speakers facing slightly away from the listening position gives the best results.

Not a dig at all (just a personal opinion) but I can't fathom paying 5K on a pair of speakers that have this many issues. And, I've owned quite a few models of B&W speakers (including 800 D2 series-800 series seem to have fewer problems but are not flawless).

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post #74 of 115 Old 11-16-2019, 01:12 PM
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I won't even start to judge until he has a chance to do speakers placement experiment. A few inches can make a day and night difference, a few degrees in turning can make a difference. After that, if that does not cure the problem, then worry about something else.


Timestoo talked about very little sound stage, that I know speakers placement can do magic. I am hoping when he gets his sound stage, everything will sound a lot sweeter!! My speakers are on the bright side also, but with better sound stage, a fuller sound from playing with speaker placement, it just sound sweeter instead of the highs sticking out. I never believe the few inches placement can make a difference until I finally tried it. I am a true believer of the speakers placement.


I have hard wood floor in this house instead of carpeting in the last two. Now with the right speaker placement, It sound much much better than I can remember ever. I am not even convince room treatment that much. I spent $100 to buy a panel because of the bass is just not solid. It improved in one position. BUT then I experimented with speakers placement and optimized it. The panel DID NOTHING anymore, I put it away.


I won't spend a penny on room treatment until I perfect the speakers placement. Then do the room treatment to improve it further.


I am waiting for Timestoo to build the cable to see whether it can bring a little more sound stage out. It did it for me. But of cause I have different speakers that is known to be hard to drive.
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Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 11-16-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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post #75 of 115 Old 11-16-2019, 05:22 PM
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I won't even start to judge until he has a chance to do speakers placement experiment. A few inches can make a day and night difference, a few degrees in turning can make a difference. After that, if that does not cure the problem, then worry about something else.


Timestoo talked about very little sound stage, that I know speakers placement can do magic. I am hoping when he gets his sound stage, everything will sound a lot sweeter!! My speakers are on the bright side also, but with better sound stage, a fuller sound from playing with speaker placement, it just sound sweeter instead of the highs sticking out. I never believe the few inches placement can make a difference until I finally tried it. I am a true believer of the speakers placement.


I have hard wood floor in this house instead of carpeting in the last two. Now with the right speaker placement, It sound much much better than I can remember ever. I am not even convince room treatment that much. I spent $100 to buy a panel because of the bass is just not solid. It improved in one position. BUT then I experimented with speakers placement and optimized it. The panel DID NOTHING anymore, I put it away.


I won't spend a penny on room treatment until I perfect the speakers placement. Then do the room treatment to improve it further.


I am waiting for Timestoo to build the cable to see whether it can bring a little more sound stage out. It did it for me. But of cause I have different speakers that is known to be hard to drive.
Not going to argue with this. I agree that placement is most likely the key.

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post #76 of 115 Old 11-17-2019, 01:26 PM
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I want to talk a little bit about experimenting on speaker placement. Now, I need to disclaim, I am NOT an expert in placement, just experimenting. This is what I did only, just look at it as a starting point. People with more experience should join in.


1) Identify where you are going to sit and put a chair.

2) place the speakers relative to the sitting position in a equilateral triangle....that is you and the two speakers form a triangle with equal distance from each other. Or you are the same distance to each speaker the same distance between the speakers. Have to speakers facing you.
3) Make sure the speakers are about 2ft or more away from the back wall.
4) Sit in the chair and listen to the music. then move your chair a little closer or a little farther from the plane of the speakers ( keeping the distance between you each speaker the same). Just move back and forth and you might find a spot that the sound stage is the best. That would be the spot for the chair.
5) turn the speakers a little at a time ( changing the toe in). Just a few degrees at a time, it can be sensitive. Look for further improvement of the sound stage and the sound.


This is what I did and I am loving it. It is so sensitive, one day, I notice the sound is not as good. Then I notice my big boss move the left speaker just a little to clean the floor. It was only like 2" off and a little different toe in. I could detect it and I adjust it back and got back my sound.


It is all trial and error, just try this and see what happen. I have not seen Scott3886 here lately, I talked to him a lot when I was experimenting on this. He should know a whole hack of a lot more than me.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #77 of 115 Old 11-18-2019, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I want to talk a little bit about experimenting on speaker placement. Now, I need to disclaim, I am NOT an expert in placement, just experimenting. This is what I did only, just look at it as a starting point. People with more experience should join in.


1) Identify where you are going to sit and put a chair.

2) place the speakers relative to the sitting position in a equilateral triangle....that is you and the two speakers form a triangle with equal distance from each other. Or you are the same distance to each speaker the same distance between the speakers. Have to speakers facing you.
3) Make sure the speakers are about 2ft or more away from the back wall.
4) Sit in the chair and listen to the music. then move your chair a little closer or a little farther from the plane of the speakers ( keeping the distance between you each speaker the same). Just move back and forth and you might find a spot that the sound stage is the best. That would be the spot for the chair.
5) turn the speakers a little at a time ( changing the toe in). Just a few degrees at a time, it can be sensitive. Look for further improvement of the sound stage and the sound.


This is what I did and I am loving it. It is so sensitive, one day, I notice the sound is not as good. Then I notice my big boss move the left speaker just a little to clean the floor. It was only like 2" off and a little different toe in. I could detect it and I adjust it back and got back my sound.


It is all trial and error, just try this and see what happen. I have not seen Scott3886 here lately, I talked to him a lot when I was experimenting on this. He should know a whole hack of a lot more than me.
Alan, when this "sweet spot" is found, how large of an area is it? How bad does it sound 1', 2', 3" right, left, up, down, forward & back? Do I need to play musical chair for someone else to hear what only I hear. In my first apartment my ex brother-in-law(he worked at the Columbus Agora) picked out my equipment(wish I still had the Phase Linear 400)and set them up. He ended up having the speakers angled right at the wall and it sounded amazing in the whole room.
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post #78 of 115 Old 11-18-2019, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
Alan, when this "sweet spot" is found, how large of an area is it? How bad does it sound 1', 2', 3" right, left, up, down, forward & back? Do I need to play musical chair for someone else to hear what only I hear. In my first apartment my ex brother-in-law(he worked at the Columbus Agora) picked out my equipment(wish I still had the Phase Linear 400)and set them up. He ended up having the speakers angled right at the wall and it sounded amazing in the whole room.
That "Sweet Spot" is very small from left to right. The key is for the sound to hit your ears at the same time. That is "stereo". What you will hear is a phantom image in the center. I can literally be looking right at my left or right speaker and NOT hear it directly. It disappears auditory standpoint.

Recommend a well recorded vocal track, as usually the singer is in the center or very close to it. Alan0354 is correct. It is very sensitive. Make sure the "distance" settings on the pre-amp are equal so you can find yourself in the center of the two speakers. I sit left of center...so I had to play with placement, volume, and distance and I nailed it. It took a couple of days to dial it in...and a few scotches.

Only that spot will hear it. Up/down, front to back is not as critical...left to right is a killer. You will need to play musical chairs if you want someone else to year exactly what you hear.

Once you dial in that phantom image, you can really hear how well a track is recorded. For me, it has brought me to love well recorded Jazz tracks of all things. Well recorded Jazz tracks allow me to hear each individual instrument as if I were sitting center stage 3-5 rows back...you can literally pick out each individual musician.

For me, it has made me much more of a recording snob. The engineering is very important here. You can tell how they lay over individual tracks within a song and how much time they spent making it "come to life". Now a song that I might not have liked, becomes more of a favorite when they get the engineering right. You also start to pick out all kinds of sounds you never heard before on some of your favorite old songs. This is all the stuff that gets cut when they compress a song for streaming or mobile phone download/use.

My Paradigms are excellent...especially left to right...they image even outside of the placement of the towers. I've noticed that KEF seems to image much deeper.
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post #79 of 115 Old 11-18-2019, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
Alan, when this "sweet spot" is found, how large of an area is it? How bad does it sound 1', 2', 3" right, left, up, down, forward & back? Do I need to play musical chair for someone else to hear what only I hear. In my first apartment my ex brother-in-law(he worked at the Columbus Agora) picked out my equipment(wish I still had the Phase Linear 400)and set them up. He ended up having the speakers angled right at the wall and it sounded amazing in the whole room.

The sweet spot is very small, but in general it will sound better in the whole room. This is what I meant. If you look at the diagram, I started out with everything 8ft apart ( of cause you can change to different distance, just keep it all the same distance. Start with speakers pointing at you. You should sit on a chair without back so you can easily lean forward and backward for like 1ft.( say shown in orange when you lean forward, blue when you lean back). In my case, there is ONE spot that all of a sudden the sound stage sounded the best. If you find the sweet spot, move the chair to the sweet spot and redo the test to confirm that's the sweet spot. You know when you hear it ( at least in my case). After finding the spot, then start toe out the speaker a little at a time to improve the sound.


Again, this is only my experience and it works for me in my room and speakers. Can't promise you anything. But it should be very quick and easy to try. I am hoping if you find the sweet spot, the sound stage will improve and the sound gets fuller and sweeter, that will make the treble not as tiring to listen.


I totally agree with GTDTS using voice for testing. Human voice is the hardest to get it right from my experience. Ha ha, I can even use news station listening to people talk. When it is right, you can hear the voice very solid, very clear and easy to understand, no strange off phase kind of sound. You don't want to use instrumental music to test.
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post #80 of 115 Old 11-18-2019, 06:33 PM
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You have good advice in the posts immediately above.

Note that you want the two front speakers sufficiently wide apart so that you hear a nice big soundstage with a vocalist's voice "floating" in the middle (most are positioned dead center), as already stated. But avoid placing the speakers too far apart, which would create a sonic "hole" in the middle. You will know it when you get it right.

Also, if the furnishings and wall distance on the outside of each speaker are different (for instance, a nearby reflective wall on one side and an absorbent or distant wall on the other side), you can use the Anthem AVR's channel-level control to center the vocalist. (Unfortunately, the Rotel preamp does not have a balance control.)

Once this step is done, move on to angling the speakers for smoothest sound as you try to minimize or avoid the brightness issue. After finding the best angle, see if raising or lowering your ear height further helps alleviate the brightness. Finally, if you decide to use the Anthem AVR on a permanent basis, you can utilize its bass and treble and EQ functions as needed.
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I got carried away and revamping & painting.........can't thank GTDTS, Alan & Alex enough for a great step by step evaluation. I will report my findings and gladly receive any suggestions and thoughts. I'm pretty amped about "finding what I'm looking for"! And, what GTDTS described is exactly what I'm looking for!
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post #82 of 115 Old 11-18-2019, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Timestoo View Post
Alan, when this "sweet spot" is found, how large of an area is it? How bad does it sound 1', 2', 3" right, left, up, down, forward & back? Do I need to play musical chair for someone else to hear what only I hear........................

I forgot to respond to this, I can tell from my experience even 1' to 2' off the sweet spot to the side is still quite sweet. But of cause, if you actually comparing with people, you let them sit at the sweet spot as there is a difference 1' off.


This is in perfect condition, I am not sitting at the sweet spot as shown in the picture. It's in the living room.....not a studio that I can do whatever. I have a big boss to answer. Even with this setup, she's not too happy and I have to move the speakers out whenever we have friends coming over. My chair is to the right of the sweet spot about 1.5' off to the right as labeled "CHAIR". It's still quite sweet. I just have to toe in the left speaker a little more.



The real world is not that ideal, I have a big hutch and a real projection tv, I don't have empty space behind the left speaker. That's life. The sound is still very sweet right now and I am very happy even with the chair on one side. I can't wait for the tv to die, then I'll buy an 80" LCD TV and hang on the wall, getting rid of the hutch, then I will have more room behind for the speakers to breath. I also have hardwood floor. BUT it's my believe if I sit closer enough with speakers not too far apart, I mainly hearing the INCIDENT wave from the speakers. The incident wave is so much stronger than the reflected waves that it dominates all the reflected waves from the walls and floors. It's pretty sweet. It's definitely better than the last two houses I lived in with carpet and all.


Now, this is just my theory, but this is Physics, the amplitude of the wave decrease at the rate of the SQUARE of the distance. So the wave is 4 times as strong when you listen at 4' from the source than from 8'. So if I optimize the incident wave distance, amplitude of the reflected waves are going to be much much weaker and the effect will be much less.

'
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post #83 of 115 Old 11-20-2019, 06:33 PM
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I've heard Rotel and B&W combos before and always thought it sounded bright, etched, and just "crunchy". Specifically Rotel and the D3 towers sounded pretty awful. Kind of a head scratcher really, considering one company owns the other. On the other hand McIntosh is killer with B&W, from what I have listened to.

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post #84 of 115 Old 11-21-2019, 05:56 PM
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I have a Classe CA-200, B & W 702 S2 and a Rotel RC-1070 in a carpeted 24' x 13' basement room. It sounds horrible and ear fatigue within an hour.

Should these components pair well and my sights be set on room treatment? Or, is the Classe & Rotel outdated?

Thanks for any and all replies!
What kind of music do you listen to? What source do you use, CDs, 24/96 files, LPs, R2R tape, DSD, MQA, etc?

I auditioned the B&W 702 S2 and B&W 705 S2 driven by Rotel gear and to my ears they both were very bright and thin, however I auditioned the B&W 805 D3 driven by Mcintosh gear and they were very revealing and accurate with palpable texture, great image, great slam on the bass, great midrange, voices were big, piano notes were big, drums had great extension, great nuances, great backgrounds, I did not feel any fatigue or discomfort. I had the Rotel RB-1590 (350 watts a channel) on my room with my gear and did not like it at all, it was very bright, thin, very dry, edgy and lifeless. It did not make me smile.

Long time ago I auditioned the Classe CA-200 and did not like it also. I paired it with at least 4 different preamps: The Audible Illuisions M3A, the Audio Research LS3, LS7, LS15.

Just recently I got me the Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis amp and the CA-5 Preamp with the B&W 805 D3 speakers and I'm loving every second of this setup.
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post #85 of 115 Old 11-21-2019, 06:16 PM
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...................

Just recently I got me the Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis amp and the CA-5 Preamp with the B&W 805 D3 speakers and I'm loving every second of this setup.
There goes to show opinions varies so much. I happened to move my PA-7 from the garage to the shed in the backyard!!! I just dislike the amp. I completely restored it but it's just not good.....I guess for me. I don't want to do shipping, anyone live in the bay area and want to buy that, I am willing to sell for $300 to $400, just come listen and pick it up!!!!

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post #86 of 115 Old 11-21-2019, 06:37 PM
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There goes to show opinions varies so much. I happened to move my PA-7 from the garage to the shed in the backyard!!! I just dislike the amp. I completely restored it but it's just not good.....I guess for me. I don't want to do shipping, anyone live in the bay area and want to buy that, I am willing to sell for $300 to $400, just come listen and pick it up!!!!
Well of course, we all do have different sensitivity on our ears. We all hear different things or not at all.

The Nakamichi PA-7 has the same Stasis topology as the Threshold S/350e amp, these two amps rival any modern amps at the same specs.

Also, you already messed it up, I wonder why it may sound like crap.
I have had many amps in my room and the Nakamichi PA7 is the only solid state amp that I really liked; the other ones have been very bright, super bassy, too much gain, super hot, horrible amps.

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post #87 of 115 Old 11-21-2019, 06:53 PM
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Well of course, we all do have different sensitivity on our ears. We all hear different things or not at all.

The Nakamichi PA-7 has the same Stasis topology as the Threshold S/350e amp, these two amps rival any modern amps at the same specs.

Also, you already messed it up, I wonder why it may sound like crap.
I have had many amps in my room and the Nakamichi PA7 is the only solid state amp that I really liked; the other ones have been very bright, super bassy, too much gain, super hot, horrible amps.
I design and build hifi power amps!!! I know what I am doing. It tested to spec.


I bought the amp because of the name Nelson Pass and according to design, it's a step above the Threshold S300. I bought it to serve as a reference amp to design against 4 years ago. My first design built beat the PA-7 already. It just doesn't have the resolution and sound stage. In my amp tests, the sound stage of the PA-7 is behind the plane of the speakers, it just doesn't come out.


Word of advice, do not use Kimber Kables or other speaker cables that use smaller individual wires knitted together. PA-7 cannot drive capacitance load. It's not stable with those high capacitance cable. It burst into oscillation even when I hanged a 1500pF across the output terminals.

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post #88 of 115 Old 11-21-2019, 07:40 PM
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I design and build hifi power amps!!! I know what I am doing. It tested to spec.
I have been a musician for the last 45 years, I play guitar, piano, bass, drums, all kinds of keyboards and I really know how music should sound, I have a great ear that most people just dream about. Also I have a recording studio with a friend of mine where we produce all kinds of music from scratch.

Quote:
I bought the amp because of the name Nelson Pass and according to design, it's a step above the Threshold S300. I bought it to serve as a reference amp to design against 4 years ago. My first design built beat the PA-7 already. It just doesn't have the resolution and sound stage. In my amp tests, the sound stage of the PA-7 is behind the plane of the speakers, it just doesn't come out.
Exactly, that's why I was always very interested on this amp because is a Nelson Pass design. Its specs are already very impressive I don't understand how they could be made better, but it could be I guess; however I care more about its sound.
Quote:

Word of advice, do not use Kimber Kables or other speaker cables that use smaller individual wires knitted together. PA-7 cannot drive capacitance load. It's not stable with those high capacitance cable. It burst into oscillation even when I hanged a 1500pF across the output terminals.
Thank you.
I have not tried the Kimber cables on this amp, I have it connected with the Audioquest clear 2 speaker cable, the best cable Audioquest ever made. This cable is made of solid conductors so I guess complies with your theory.

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post #89 of 115 Old 11-21-2019, 08:10 PM
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Why would such a great MFG as B & W design and market such a speaker as what is being described?
To attempt to compete at a price-point....

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I really wanted to use the Classe but do you think the MRX would be better because I can set the values going to the 702's?
Well, you can at least try ARC. Not a fix-all, but it could help a bit.

Do keep us posted!

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post #90 of 115 Old 11-21-2019, 08:45 PM
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I have been a musician for the last 45 years, I play guitar, piano, bass, drums, all kinds of keyboards and I really know how music should sound, I have a great ear that most people just dream about. Also I have a recording studio with a friend of mine where we produce all kinds of music from scratch.


Exactly, that's why I was always very interested on this amp because is a Nelson Pass design. Its specs are already very impressive I don't understand how they could be made better, but it could be I guess; however I care more about its sound.

Thank you.
I have not tried the Kimber cables on this amp, I have it connected with the Audioquest clear 2 speaker cable, the best cable Audioquest ever made. This cable is made of solid conductors so I guess complies with your theory.
I was a guitarist, I quit since 1979. I designed guitar amps before. Actually I was not not happy with the guitar amps at the time and started modifying it. I had a Marshall Plexi triple stack 100W and a Twin Reverb at the time. I just could not get good sound at lower volume. I started designing channel switching and high gain stage into the Twin. I did not know Mesa Boggie was doing the same thing. I actually designed in power scaling using a variac to control the power stage in 1978. I should have patented it, the idea didn't even come out until the 90s by London Power and called it power scaling. Of cause, I was not into electronics at the time, I did it the stupid way. I literally link a bunch of 36V transformers to get like about 220V to power the preamp tubes, separate 6.3V transformer to run the heaters and put a variac on the original power transformer and adjust the voltages of the power tubes to vary the power. I can get good distortion at bedroom level.

Actually from that, I discovered my true passion of my life, electronics. I quit music in 79 and went on had a full career in electronic engineer until I retired. Then I went in full circle and designed/built 2 guitar amps. This time in the right way using MOSFET to do the power scaling. Both have channel switching. BUT, I really are not interested in playing anymore, it's a waste to design guitar amps. One also sit in the shed. So I switch to design hifi power amps. Hey, it's better than doing crossword puzzles!!! This keeps my mind active.

Power amps design is very much like design IC Opamps, just with high power and using big transistors. It's quite fun, I design and completed 4 already. Right now, I am experimenting something new and I have two more different designs in the pipeline.

This is a recording of a street jam right before I quit, using the amp I modified had the power scaling and channel switching in 1978. Don't judge my playing in today's standard, this was played in 1978!! It was recorded by a handheld cassette recorder only.


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