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post #331 of 349 Old 12-02-2019, 10:50 PM
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BTW, I never mention, I have THOUSANDS of exotic cars like Lamborghini, Ferrari, Aston Martins, Porsche, Bugatti and many many more, I can tell you they are no better than Ford Mustang GT after driving them. Most of them are not as reliable as the Mustang and most don't even seat 4. But I just keep buying them, I can't help it.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #332 of 349 Old 12-02-2019, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
For amp designers, I wouldn't trust a guy who doesn't believe in blind testing of products enough to spend $1 with him. But I would trust the guy who built a reasonably priced amp that produces 185 watts with .0001% distortion. It's the Benchmark AHB2, and its only $2995. But that would probably rule it out as a true audiophile amp for alan0354 since its not $10,000. What a joke. I'd also buy an amp from the guy who designed the HypexNC400 and NC500 modules since they also measure better than just about any amp made, and cost half what the benchmark does for 3 channels vs 2, and with a lot more power to boot.

Anyone interested in the facts about these amps, check out their detailed independent reviews on audiosciencereview. If you want some audiophile tomfoolery about how they improve soundstage and imaging or any other such baloney, definitely DO NOT check them out. Only facts here.

And anyone who talks about how an amp improves soundstage, imaging, etc, is absolutely deluded. The only things that have any affect on that, at all, are the speakers, the recording, and the room and placement.

An amp affects soundstage and imaging????...ok folks, time to move on.
Where did you get the idea I said $3000 is cheap? My amps are $1000 each as I designed and built it. As for AHB2, I don't know how they get 0.0001% THD, but it's only at 1KHz. I only achieved 0.0005% with 4ohm load ( should be like 0.0003% with 8ohm). But the damping factor at 20KHz of the AHB2 is way less than good, it's only [email protected]. This means the output impedance is 8/34=0.235ohm. That's very high. THD needs to measure at the speaker input, any amp measures a lot better if using a 8ohm resistor load. Notice other than damping factor, there is no spec at higher frequencies?
https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/...ower-amplifier
They did not spec THD at 5KHz, 10KHz, 15KHz and 20KHz.With damping factor of [email protected], THD is going to be sky high with real speaker measuring at the speaker input terminals.

See, you really have to know what you are talking to quote the technical spec.


My new amp is low power, it measured 0.0014% THD @20KHz, less than 0.001%@10KHz at 60W output into 4ohm. Damping factor is over 600 @ 20KHz.


BTW, what is your system so we can put it in perspective.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 12-02-2019 at 11:56 PM.
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post #333 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 02:33 AM
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C'mon fellas... I'm running out of popcorn...
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Main system: NAD C 658; Emotiva Stealth PA-1 x2 monoblocks; Monitor Audio Gold 100 5G spkrs. Sources: Cocktail Audio X10; Sony UHP-H1. Cables: Mark Grant Cables (analogue ICs); Atlas Cables (coax); QED (optical); Fisual S-Flex 2.5mm OFC (speakers).
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post #334 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post

BTW, what is your system so we can put it in perspective.
I have Dayton Audio B652 for LCR, Micca Covo-s for surrounds, and a Dayton Sub-800 to handle the low stuff. AVR is Yamaha RXV-375. Its a pretty sick setup! I have crazy good speaker cables too! I forget which brand cable lifts I'm using.
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post #335 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
So you admit you don't have the high end gear, and you believe that you test the best of the best speakers with one speaker and ABX by recording the best of the best amps at the output and play it back on another system?


I don't care you even read this, I want other people to read this and decide whether they trust this or not.

I for one trust Charles. Unfortunately I cannot say the same thing about you. You absolutely refuse to see that somehow in your breadboard experiments, you and your friends got biased towards one component over another. You also refute that there is a limit in human hearing with 0.5 db being the limit of detectable change. Hearing memory accuracy is also only accurate for up to a minute at best which has been proven many times over and independently of Doc Toole but you also don't accept that premise. Audio is about science and measurements and not alchemy.

AVR Yamaha RX-V 1800/1900/1500
TT/Cassette ProJect Xpression III/Yamaha KX1200/KX800
BR Yam. BD-S681/Sony X800/Pan. BD30 DPL Sam. 65"/ 55"/50"
Speakers PSB T-45,8C,1B/ PSB 500,200C,RBH A600/Alphas
Subs Rythmic LV12-R/PSB Subsonic 6/5
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post #336 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 09:18 AM
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"And the reason I spent so much money on electronics because I used to think I could hear differences."


Beautifully said.

There's an old phrase, "open your eyes".

But when it comes to comparisons between various audio components, "close your eyes" instead.

Cognitive bias in the brain is real and it influences our perceptions.
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Save your money.
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post #337 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I have Dayton Audio B652 for LCR, Micca Covo-s for surrounds, and a Dayton Sub-800 to handle the low stuff. AVR is Yamaha RXV-375. Its a pretty sick setup! I have crazy good speaker cables too! I forget which brand cable lifts I'm using.
HA. Good one "cable lifts". Are they gold plated and cryogenicly treated? Sounds like a good start but maybe you should buy a magic brick to place on top of your system which "experts" like Paul McGowan, the head of PS Audio, tells us makes a real difference:

"Oh my goodness. It worked, and not just a little. The Brick opened up the soundfield, separated the instruments and singer from each other and, best of all, it was repeatable. On; magic happened. Off; we went back to what was."

Source.

Good thing he uses protocols to preclude cognitive bias and applies statistical analysis to his results. . . oh wait, never mind, he doesn't.

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post #338 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 09:21 AM
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"Oh my goodness. It worked, and not just a little. The Brick opened up the soundfield, separated the instruments and singer from each other and, best of all, it was repeatable. On; magic happened. Off; we went back to what was."

OMG. He should write for Stereophile.
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Save your money.
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post #339 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
"Oh my goodness. It worked, and not just a little. The Brick opened up the soundfield, separated the instruments and singer from each other and, best of all, it was repeatable. On; magic happened. Off; we went back to what was."

OMG. He should write for Stereophile.
He'd be in good company because both believe green magic marker ink placed on the circumference of a CD improves the sound.

It astounds me how many people cite him as an expert.
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post #340 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 09:28 AM
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"You’d think after some of these eye openers I’d have changed my ways; become more accepting of change I don’t understand. But no, I am still resistant to that which makes no sense.
Even when it works."


[quoted from same source/link in the previous post]



So... sell 'em if ya got 'em!
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #341 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I have Dayton Audio B652 for LCR, Micca Covo-s for surrounds, and a Dayton Sub-800 to handle the low stuff. AVR is Yamaha RXV-375. Its a pretty sick setup! I have crazy good speaker cables too! I forget which brand cable lifts I'm using.
Now, this put into perspective. Nothing wrong with your system, just how do you judge the good system?

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #342 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
I for one trust Charles. Unfortunately I cannot say the same thing about you. You absolutely refuse to see that somehow in your breadboard experiments, you and your friends got biased towards one component over another. You also refute that there is a limit in human hearing with 0.5 db being the limit of detectable change. Hearing memory accuracy is also only accurate for up to a minute at best which has been proven many times over and independently of Doc Toole but you also don't accept that premise. Audio is about science and measurements and not alchemy.
I am sure you trust him and the few others, you all trust



1) Testing the best of the best speakers with ONE speaker.
2) ABX the best of the best amps by recording it's output and play it back on a totally different system.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #343 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
I for one trust Charles. Unfortunately I cannot say the same thing about you. You absolutely refuse to see that somehow in your breadboard experiments, you and your friends got biased towards one component over another. You also refute that there is a limit in human hearing with 0.5 db being the limit of detectable change.

Who gives you the idea that I refute this? I said you can hear the difference in sound quality even if the volume is no perfectly matched.
Hearing memory accuracy is also only accurate for up to a minute

Speak for yourself and the few people that don't have ears. I have friends that can pin point the exact device few months apart. You are not a musician, you don't have the ears. You cannot even imagine how good the ears some people can have.

at best which has been proven many times over and independently of Doc Toole but you also don't accept that premise. Audio is about science and measurements and not alchemy.
Ah, him again. I just wonder if he work for a high end speaker company instead of some mid-fi company, what would he say then............."Ah, I see the light, now, I have scientific proof that you have to have two speakers to separate the good and not so good speakers"


Like I said, when Consumer Reports gave bad rating to speakers from harmon, harmon SENT HIM to Consumer Reports to "TEACH" them the "RIGHT" way to listen to speakers to get a better rating of harmon speakers.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 12-03-2019 at 11:11 AM.
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post #344 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 11:07 AM
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C'mon fellas... I'm running out of popcorn...
Good thing there is a pause button so you won't miss out while you run down for more. Buy it by the box full.
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post #345 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 11:10 AM
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... Audio is about science and measurements and not alchemy.
I thought for a minute there may be a revival, new life, in alchemy.
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post #346 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 02:03 PM
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I thought for a minute there may be a revival, new life, in alchemy.



FADs come and go

AVR Yamaha RX-V 1800/1900/1500
TT/Cassette ProJect Xpression III/Yamaha KX1200/KX800
BR Yam. BD-S681/Sony X800/Pan. BD30 DPL Sam. 65"/ 55"/50"
Speakers PSB T-45,8C,1B/ PSB 500,200C,RBH A600/Alphas
Subs Rythmic LV12-R/PSB Subsonic 6/5
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post #347 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Ah, him again. I just wonder if he work for a high end speaker company instead of some mid-fi company, what would he say then............."Ah, I see the light, now, I have scientific proof that you have to have two speakers to separate the good and not so good speakers"

Show me the article.



Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Like I said, when Consumer Reports gave bad rating to speakers from harmon, harmon SENT HIM to Consumer Reports to "TEACH" them the "RIGHT" way to listen to speakers to get a better rating of harmon speakers.

You keep reading your CR They are the least qualified to evaluate speakers. "Hmmmm the vinyl wrap wasnt applied evenly so we'll score the speaker a 4 out of 10 " despite the speakers having the most linear response and best off axes response. After all vinyl is king, right?


Paul Barton the founder of PSB was a concert violinist so he knows all to well about tone, pitch and realism. Yet he subscribes to Dr Toole's work and agrees whole heartedly with Tool's testing philosophy and he believes in the measuring of mono speaker in an anoechic chamber.
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AVR Yamaha RX-V 1800/1900/1500
TT/Cassette ProJect Xpression III/Yamaha KX1200/KX800
BR Yam. BD-S681/Sony X800/Pan. BD30 DPL Sam. 65"/ 55"/50"
Speakers PSB T-45,8C,1B/ PSB 500,200C,RBH A600/Alphas
Subs Rythmic LV12-R/PSB Subsonic 6/5

Last edited by 3db; 12-03-2019 at 02:37 PM.
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post #348 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post


Like I said, when Consumer Reports gave bad rating to speakers from harmon, harmon SENT HIM to Consumer Reports to "TEACH" them the "RIGHT" way to listen to speakers to get a better rating of harmon speakers.

I vaguely remember this event but i remember it totally different than you. Dr Toole went to CR to teach them how to properly evaluate speakers and to look beyond the vinyl wrap.


Here's a discussion from another forum about CR speaker measurements.



http://forums.audioreview.com/speake...ngs-13445.html


It appears that CR is out of their league when it comes to understanding speakers.


Here's a score report from CR that gives the #2 spot to a pair of Bose301 Series IV speakers. Bose is HIFI alright and it just goes to show how far out of their league CR is when it comes to testing speakers.



https://www.hometheaterforum.com/com...-ratings.8047/


As to auditory memory accuracy... No Toole hear but hear you go anyway



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2667065/

AVR Yamaha RX-V 1800/1900/1500
TT/Cassette ProJect Xpression III/Yamaha KX1200/KX800
BR Yam. BD-S681/Sony X800/Pan. BD30 DPL Sam. 65"/ 55"/50"
Speakers PSB T-45,8C,1B/ PSB 500,200C,RBH A600/Alphas
Subs Rythmic LV12-R/PSB Subsonic 6/5

Last edited by 3db; 12-03-2019 at 04:38 PM.
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post #349 of 349 Old 12-03-2019, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
HA. Good one "cable lifts". Are they gold plated and cryogenicly treated? Sounds like a good start but maybe you should buy a magic brick to place on top of your system which "experts" like Paul McGowan, the head of PS Audio, tells us makes a real difference:

"Oh my goodness. It worked, and not just a little. The Brick opened up the soundfield, separated the instruments and singer from each other and, best of all, it was repeatable. On; magic happened. Off; we went back to what was."

Source.

Good thing he uses protocols to preclude cognitive bias and applies statistical analysis to his results. . . oh wait, never mind, he doesn't.
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