Speaker Cables & Interconnects - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 214Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 349 Old 11-15-2019, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
spec1alk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 174
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Speaker Cables & Interconnects

I am curious what represents the best value for speaker cable and interconnects?

I just picked up a set of the Monoprice Onix RCA cables. Does this provide pretty good performance for the cost? Or would it be worth spending a bit more to get a much better cable?

What about speaker cables? Is something like the Monoprice Monolith a good value? Or can I get a much better cable by moving up to $50 or $100?

I suppose it would help to know how I intend to use the cables, as high end cables have no business on a cheap system.

I currently have some DIY speaker cables (BlueJeans 12 or 14awg wire with some Nakamichi banana plugs).
Going from a Harman Kardon AVR3600 to a pair of Definitive Technology Mythos 1 towers and a Mythos 9 center.
I also have an Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX that is using one of those MP Onix cables listed above.

In addition to this, I have been kicking around building a 2-channel listening setup for our living room. Nothing crazy, but will probably use a Raspberry Pi 3B+ w/ HiFi Berry DAC+ Pro to stream local FLAC files (16 and 24-bit files) and possibly Tidal or other streaming services. I would want to pair this with a pair of bookshelf speakers (something like the AudioEngine A5 or MP MM-3). Would like to avoid the need for a Pre-Amp and Amp if possible.

Based on this usage, where am I likely to find the value sweet spot of performance to cost?

Any recommendations?
spec1alk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 349 Old 11-15-2019, 02:19 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 3,184
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1849 Post(s)
Liked: 1441
That will work just fine.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
Russdawg1 is offline  
post #3 of 349 Old 11-15-2019, 02:20 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,533
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2441 Post(s)
Liked: 2282
Seems like a reasonable expense. Enjoy.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 349 Old 11-15-2019, 06:16 PM
Member
 
CSG123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Not being a believer that high end interconnects and speaker wire makes a whit of difference as long as they are well made and properly shielded, the stuff from Monoprice will be just fine. I use their interconnects and have a spool of 12g copper wire that I use to hook up my speakers.
bearr48 and yanks1 like this.
CSG123 is offline  
post #5 of 349 Old 11-15-2019, 07:05 PM
Senior Member
 
Out-Of-Phase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 455
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Liked: 308
Monoprice Onix. Nice. Good choice.

Save your money.
Out-Of-Phase is offline  
post #6 of 349 Old 11-16-2019, 12:24 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,193
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5547 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
I use these (see the 6 foot length option) for RCA interconnects because they:

- are audibly perfect
- have a strain relief so in typical home use scenarios they usually last easily a decade or much more [for musician/pro/studio use where contacts are made and broken daily, not monthly, a heavy duty version would make sense]
- nickle plated which is superior to gold because it is not as soft so it doesn't tend to scrape off in extended years of use and similarly to gold does not tend to oxidize
- inexpensive and buying 10 or more gets a Monoprice bulk quantity discounted price
- lifetime warranty

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2009

I also buy my speaker wire from Monoprice (also Amazon Basics/Mediabridge) or Home Depot's bulk wire section

To learn about the rampant snake oil industry which permeates the audio wire industry read this McIntosh designer's exposé on wire:
http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Marc Alexander, bearr48 and CSG123 like this.

Last edited by m. zillch; 11-24-2019 at 06:52 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #7 of 349 Old 11-16-2019, 01:11 PM
Advanced Member
 
qirex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 581
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Liked: 144
I have the monoprice pre-terminated 14awg speaker wires, they've worked fine. I wish they had an 8 foot length (they had 6 or 10 when I ordered) but if I really cared I'd make my own.
qirex is offline  
post #8 of 349 Old 11-17-2019, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
spec1alk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 174
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 17
FWIW, my dad is a 2-channel audiophile. A couple years ago he upgraded to Kimberly Cable. I think it was for 1 set of speaker cables (for 2 speakers) and 3 interconnects. For those familiar, these cables are expensive. He said he didn’t really notice the difference with the interconnects, but he did notice the difference with the speaker cables.

That said, I think this is all relative. If you have low or mid-grade gear you will not benefit from the difference.

What I am hearing tho is the cables I suggested are a good match for what I have for gear and planned use.
spec1alk is offline  
post #9 of 349 Old 11-17-2019, 02:00 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13
As others have indicated, good cables don't need to cost a fortune. I was in danger of getting sucked into increasingly expensive RCA interconnects but then had an experience with a particular company that put me straight. Having reached the point of GBP £320 for a pair and in imminent danger of "upgrading" to another level at £700, I decided to ask for more info about the cable that was doing to drain my bank account. The company did a great job of bringing me back down to earth by simply being unable to explain how the next level cable would be worth the extra outlay and how did the audio characteristics compare. The best they could come up with was (paraphrased) "...they'll sound more musical...". Anyone any the wiser? Me neither.

If ever there was a response designed to offer an incentive to find something that was better VFM, that was it. So off I went in search of other cables and initially found a perfectly decent pair of interconnects for £130 to replace the £300 cables. Guess which I thought sounded "more musical"? Exactly. Curiosity far from satiated, I then set about wading through a shed load of articles and forum threads about cables and, purely by chance, stumbled across a UK based maker and supplier whose RCA interconnects were less than half the price of the £130 cables.

Too good to be true? Well, I took a punt and put the £60 cables into my system. I smiled and felt sick at the same time. Smiling because I had found a set of cables that conveyed music in a way that I liked but a bit sick at the money I'd previously spent. Wasted. I am still using that set of RCA interconnects - a pair of Mark Grant Cables HDX1s. Just recently, I got a pair of XLR's from MGC too - they're made using Canare L4E6S Star Quad cable. Once again, absolutely no complaints at all. Barring a lottery win and the temptation of a bit of fun, I shall never again spend hundreds of £s for interconnects. I can now smile smugly, safe in the knowledge I can waste money on other things instead...

Did I mention mains power filters?
CharlesJ likes this.

Main system: NAD C 658; Emotiva Stealth PA-1 x2 monoblocks; Monitor Audio Gold 100 5G spkrs. Sources: Cocktail Audio X10; Sony UHP-H1. Cables: Mark Grant Cables (analogue ICs); Atlas Cables (coax); QED (optical); Fisual S-Flex 2.5mm OFC (speakers).

Last edited by RockAddict; 11-17-2019 at 02:07 PM.
RockAddict is offline  
post #10 of 349 Old 11-17-2019, 03:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CharlesJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,784
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 817 Post(s)
Liked: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by spec1alk View Post
...
That said, I think this is all relative. If you have low or mid-grade gear you will not benefit from the difference.

....
Relative to what?

You should read this about low, mid-grade and differences with a very expensive syste.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...able-test.html



Maybe he has hearing loss?
CruelInventions likes this.
CharlesJ is offline  
post #11 of 349 Old 11-17-2019, 06:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CruelInventions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 6,600
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1241 Post(s)
Liked: 1453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Kimberly Clark provides TP and diapers.

Kimber Kable is the proctologist.


I see what you did there.

sad but true, in a metaphorical sense.

Quote:
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. ~ Richard P. Feynman
CruelInventions is offline  
post #12 of 349 Old 11-18-2019, 12:42 AM
Member
 
Shintsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I remember several years ago Blue Jeans Cable was well recommended for quality interconnects that weren't overpriced yet still very high quality. I have some of their analog RCA cables for my amp/preamp connection and for a subwoofer. Really nice quality, and I think was around $25-55 depending the length. I have some speaker cable too, 12 gauge. That stuff is insanely stiff, to the point I highly recommend getting it terminated as using it bare is very difficult due to how stiff it is.

That said, I have a bunch of Monoprice cables in places and all has worked without a problem. I have a spool of 14 AWG and I think 16/18 AWG for wiring up systems when I was selling some so I could give it away with speakers. Sounded just as good as the thicker stuff and super easy to connect. Just make sure you have enough AWG for how long the run is and based on the speakers. 14-16 AWG works perfectly fine for most setups, but if you're running some crazy inefficient speakers 25 foot out, you'll want to go with the thicker stuff.
RockAddict likes this.

PC System: ATI AT1506 | Integra DTC-9.8 | Totem Dreamcatchers | Definitive ProMonitor 100s + SuperCube II
Game/Music System: Denon AVR-4802 | Infinity Crescendo CS3008 | Eosone RSP-912 | Pioneer PL-71 + CLD-D701 | Sony KDL40W600B + RX77ES + NS3100ES + PS4 Pro | Nintendo Switch
Bedroom System: Sony STR-AV880 | B&W 602 S3 | Denon DRM-540 + DCM-520
Shintsu is offline  
post #13 of 349 Old 11-21-2019, 03:12 PM
Member
 
UCrazyKid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 23
What you are already using for speaker cables should be just fine unless you want something for aesthetic reasons. Those monoprice interconnects will work fine.

"When I die, don't let my wife sell my stereo for what I told her I paid for it."
Home: Dynaudio Confidence C1 Platinum, Musical Fidelity A3.2CR Power Amp, A3.2CR Preamp, A3.2 CD, MSB Gold DAC, MSB P1000 PSU, Sunfire True Subwoofer Mk II, Apple APE, Monarchy Audio DIP Combo, Integra CP-1055F, Kimber Kable. Office: Contour s1.4 and Rotel RA-02
UCrazyKid is offline  
post #14 of 349 Old 11-22-2019, 11:04 AM
Member
 
isai95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Definitely a $15K ~ $20K speaker cable will not be used on a $2,500 audio setup but on a $120 ~ $150K audio setup, you definitely will see a $15K or more expensive speaker cable. These guys don't connect their speakers to their amps with a lamp wire or Monoprice cables.

And yes, you and anyone with passion for music and discerning ears can hear the differences like sound stage width, depth, layering, detailing, air, treble openness, softening of transients, dynamics, overall damping, articulation, separation of instruments in space, balance of the music presentation, presentation of the lead vocal and lead instrument, tonality, liquidity, texture, imaging, nuances, bigger backgrounds, bass slam, bigger expansion of cymbals, decay, attack, sustain, notes that sound more like real notes of a real piano, a real guitar, a real violin, voices sound more like the real singer and so the list of differences go on and on.

If a $10 cable would reveal all the previous properties of sound mentioned, who in the right mind would pay $20K for a speaker cable to connect their $150K setup?

Jolida Fusion 801 70 watt tube Integrated amp, Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis 200 watt amp, Nakamichi CA-5 preamp, California Audio Labs Alpha DAC & Delta CD Transport, 20 TB PC computer for 24/96 files, Rega Planar 3 Turntable, Sennheiser HD650 headphones, Schiit Valhalla tube headphone amp, Audioquest speaker cables & interconnects, Cardas interconnects and speakers cable and speakers Kimber 4VS cable.
isai95 is offline  
post #15 of 349 Old 11-22-2019, 11:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 3,184
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1849 Post(s)
Liked: 1441
Quote:
Originally Posted by isai95 View Post

If a $10 cable would reveal all the previous properties of sound mentioned, who in the right mind would pay $20K for a speaker cable to connect their $150K setup?

People who listen with their eyes and wallet, and not with their ears.
Muza, Shintsu, m. zillch and 2 others like this.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
Russdawg1 is offline  
post #16 of 349 Old 11-22-2019, 11:19 AM
CFP
Member
 
CFP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by isai95 View Post
Definitely a $15K ~ $20K speaker cable will not be used on a $2,500 audio setup but on a $120 ~ $150K audio setup, you definitely will see a $15K or more expensive speaker cable. These guys don't connect their speakers to their amps with a lamp wire or Monoprice cables.

And yes, you and anyone with passion for music and discerning ears can hear the differences like sound stage width, depth, layering, detailing, air, treble openness, softening of transients, dynamics, overall damping, articulation, separation of instruments in space, balance of the music presentation, presentation of the lead vocal and lead instrument, tonality, liquidity, texture, imaging, nuances, bigger backgrounds, bass slam, bigger expansion of cymbals, decay, attack, sustain, notes that sound more like real notes of a real piano, a real guitar, a real violin, voices sound more like the real singer and so the list of differences go on and on.

If a $10 cable would reveal all the previous properties of sound mentioned, who in the right mind would pay $20K for a speaker cable to connect their $150K setup?
Who indeed? I can think of a few:

1. People who are genuinely suckered in by snake oil salesman
2. People who buy expensive items for audio jewelry and exclusivity signaling
3. People with strong biases toward “Pricer == better”
4. People who think human ears/psycho acoustics have higher resolution than modern science

Among others.
CFP is offline  
post #17 of 349 Old 11-22-2019, 11:30 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 19,533
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2441 Post(s)
Liked: 2282
Quote:
Originally Posted by isai95 View Post
... sound stage width, depth, layering, detailing, air, treble openness, softening of transients, dynamics, overall damping, articulation, separation of instruments in space, balance of the music presentation, presentation of the lead vocal and lead instrument, tonality, liquidity, texture, imaging, nuances, bigger backgrounds, bass slam, bigger expansion of cymbals, decay, attack, sustain, notes that sound more like real notes of a real piano, a real guitar, a real violin, voices sound more like the real singer and so the list of differences go on and on.
Missed two:
"It was like lifting a veil!"
"Even my wife/mother could hear the difference from the kitchen!".


Muza, gworrel, CharlesJ and 6 others like this.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is offline  
post #18 of 349 Old 11-22-2019, 08:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CharlesJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,784
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 817 Post(s)
Liked: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
...
"Even my wife/mother could hear the difference from the kitchen!".


Some can hear driving up the driveway.
CharlesJ is offline  
post #19 of 349 Old 11-22-2019, 10:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 2,601
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1300 Post(s)
Liked: 2113
Geez,

I watched a min documentary about Metallica and they wanted a new sound system for a world tour. They got with their supplier and they designed a new system that was never seen before. The TM Array system cost a few coins, to the tune of over 10 million dollars--because it costs what it costs in the professional sound world. They showed the system in great detail and it was very interesting to see all that technology and the group of people that monitored and calibrated the system. Grand total of any audiophile brands was zero, not a single one. Granted, it is pro gear designed by a bunch of electrical, mechanical and acoustical engineers but there was NO special cables in the entire system. It was copper cable, shielding and wire looms--nothing special and was the same type I used back in my PA system days.

Rest assured every aspect of that system was optimised to perform the best it could and no expense was spared. The "magic" was the speaker design, the processors, testing, calibration and montoring of the system--complete with computer screens to monitor every signal, every amplifer channel complete with test microphones to give results in real time. The concept was it cost what it costs and with performance being the goal, an odd million or two would not be an issue. No special cables, no special power cords, no audiophile gear or concepts in any way in the entire system. Very interesting to see the system and listen to how they described the system, no audiophile jibber-jabber words that mean nothing. Words like accurate, smooth frequency response, correct dispersion, even bass response and all those boring terms that can be measured, tested, adjusted and calibrated with way, way more abilities than any sound system I've ever seen.

This same concept applies to all other fields where electronics and electrical devices are used be it medical systems, server backbones, huge power production plants, aviation to military research facilities--if you see something different there, it has a specific reason and is specifically designed for it's use.

However, only in consumer audio does such wires exist. Makes me wonder how come just in consumer audio you have such things? A person purchased a power cord just for consumer audio that is claimed to do amazing things but I find it odd that nothing else in the world uses such cords. These cords or cables are not offered by the world largest audio companies, not even thought of in computer systems, I've never seen one at a hospital or any engineering or research facility. The only place they exist is in consumer audio, they are not used in professional sound systems even the ones that exceed 10 million dollars.

I'm not saying you should learn ohm's law, retake Phsics II, learn electronics or become an EE--this is just audio signals and it is a very mature technology and has been for decades and well into the last century. I was reading about how they detect ripples in space time with the LIGO arrays, they can measure movement down to about a tenth of the width of an electron--impressive! According to the audio press, electricity and signals are not fully understood yet--but electricity is movement of electrons sooooo..... believe the audio press! Logic ditctates this might not be the case. In comparison to video, to quantum computers and massive arrays used in astonomy and astro-physics, the audio signal is a joke, a well understood waveform from way back in the day. And yet, some people believe that audio gear is leading edge---not on the conumser side, not for decades has audio been close to leading technology forward. The stuff we can purchase that has any leading edge tech in it is thanks to the telecom industry and so forth. But yet, some people still believe in speaker wire, RCA cables, power cords and that sort of thing as being leading edge or vast room for improvement.

Just something to think about, how come only consumer audio is blessed with state-of-the-art cables? Maybe once AI improves to a certain level the worlds engineers, scientists and research facilities will trust the quantum computer running AI when it states that the worlds billions of electrical devices could all be vastly improved by using Nordost, Audio Quest or PS Audio gear--but I am not holding my breath. Of course, the audiophile wire market might of caused a curiousity with all other tech retlated fields and they might of tested them to see if it matters. I've heard rumors spoken in quiet tones that engineers actually did such a thing many years ago. I'd say, when looking at everything else in the world they found the audiophile cable lacking which would explain why I've never seen any of it used in critical electronic systems.

In summation, why does it do something for consumer audio but does nothing for everything else in the world? Now that is any interesting question! For me, I had my answer years ago (I tested the cables) learned the game then pressed on. My cables are the same 12 AWG copper professional cables that I used in my PA days. They are thick, heavy jackets, nylon rope inside to protect the cables from damage when run over by trucks for outside use--but they work very well even for simple consumer audio. Nothing wrong with overkill but I don't recommend using professional cables in the home--rather large, hard to hide the things and won't win for impressing women. The rather high cost of them has to do with the bomb-proof consstruction, the durable connectors on each end (cut off and replaced with bananas) They do look cool to teenagers though!

No point in posting this to the true believers--they don't believe in sound engineers, electrical engineers and the like--it is just for those that really want to know if this stuff has actually been tested. Enjoy the read and have a good weekend!

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
18Hurts is offline  
post #20 of 349 Old 11-23-2019, 07:13 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Argentina
Posts: 178
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked: 8
How about this ones??

https://www.amazon.com/SVS-Ultra-Spe...QCTR6F49EQ724G

Or do you recommend me another ones??
Trunksleo is online now  
post #21 of 349 Old 11-23-2019, 10:45 AM
Member
 
isai95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
Geez,

I watched a min documentary about Metallica and they wanted a new sound system for a world tour. They got with their supplier and they designed a new system that was never seen before. The TM Array system cost a few coins, to the tune of over 10 million dollars--because it costs what it costs in the professional sound world. They showed the system in great detail and it was very interesting to see all that technology and the group of people that monitored and calibrated the system. Grand total of any audiophile brands was zero, not a single one. Granted, it is pro gear designed by a bunch of electrical, mechanical and acoustical engineers but there was NO special cables in the entire system. It was copper cable, shielding and wire looms--nothing special and was the same type I used back in my PA system days.

Rest assured every aspect of that system was optimised to perform the best it could and no expense was spared. The "magic" was the speaker design, the processors, testing, calibration and montoring of the system--complete with computer screens to monitor every signal, every amplifer channel complete with test microphones to give results in real time. The concept was it cost what it costs and with performance being the goal, an odd million or two would not be an issue. No special cables, no special power cords, no audiophile gear or concepts in any way in the entire system. Very interesting to see the system and listen to how they described the system, no audiophile jibber-jabber words that mean nothing. Words like accurate, smooth frequency response, correct dispersion, even bass response and all those boring terms that can be measured, tested, adjusted and calibrated with way, way more abilities than any sound system I've ever seen.

This same concept applies to all other fields where electronics and electrical devices are used be it medical systems, server backbones, huge power production plants, aviation to military research facilities--if you see something different there, it has a specific reason and is specifically designed for it's use.

However, only in consumer audio does such wires exist. Makes me wonder how come just in consumer audio you have such things? A person purchased a power cord just for consumer audio that is claimed to do amazing things but I find it odd that nothing else in the world uses such cords. These cords or cables are not offered by the world largest audio companies, not even thought of in computer systems, I've never seen one at a hospital or any engineering or research facility. The only place they exist is in consumer audio, they are not used in professional sound systems even the ones that exceed 10 million dollars.

I'm not saying you should learn ohm's law, retake Phsics II, learn electronics or become an EE--this is just audio signals and it is a very mature technology and has been for decades and well into the last century. I was reading about how they detect ripples in space time with the LIGO arrays, they can measure movement down to about a tenth of the width of an electron--impressive! According to the audio press, electricity and signals are not fully understood yet--but electricity is movement of electrons sooooo..... believe the audio press! Logic ditctates this might not be the case. In comparison to video, to quantum computers and massive arrays used in astonomy and astro-physics, the audio signal is a joke, a well understood waveform from way back in the day. And yet, some people believe that audio gear is leading edge---not on the conumser side, not for decades has audio been close to leading technology forward. The stuff we can purchase that has any leading edge tech in it is thanks to the telecom industry and so forth. But yet, some people still believe in speaker wire, RCA cables, power cords and that sort of thing as being leading edge or vast room for improvement.

Just something to think about, how come only consumer audio is blessed with state-of-the-art cables? Maybe once AI improves to a certain level the worlds engineers, scientists and research facilities will trust the quantum computer running AI when it states that the worlds billions of electrical devices could all be vastly improved by using Nordost, Audio Quest or PS Audio gear--but I am not holding my breath. Of course, the audiophile wire market might of caused a curiousity with all other tech retlated fields and they might of tested them to see if it matters. I've heard rumors spoken in quiet tones that engineers actually did such a thing many years ago. I'd say, when looking at everything else in the world they found the audiophile cable lacking which would explain why I've never seen any of it used in critical electronic systems.

In summation, why does it do something for consumer audio but does nothing for everything else in the world? Now that is any interesting question! For me, I had my answer years ago (I tested the cables) learned the game then pressed on. My cables are the same 12 AWG copper professional cables that I used in my PA days. They are thick, heavy jackets, nylon rope inside to protect the cables from damage when run over by trucks for outside use--but they work very well even for simple consumer audio. Nothing wrong with overkill but I don't recommend using professional cables in the home--rather large, hard to hide the things and won't win for impressing women. The rather high cost of them has to do with the bomb-proof consstruction, the durable connectors on each end (cut off and replaced with bananas) They do look cool to teenagers though!

No point in posting this to the true believers--they don't believe in sound engineers, electrical engineers and the like--it is just for those that really want to know if this stuff has actually been tested. Enjoy the read and have a good weekend!

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Do you think that for the majority of people who do not nothing about cars think that there is a difference between a Bugatti Veyron of $3.4 million vs. a Hyundai Elantra $18,950?
My cousin who knows nothing about cars would say, both cars have 4 tires, both are made of steel, both burn gasoline, both can only go 20 MPH in the 10 Fwy or 405 Fwy at rush hour, why paying over $3 million for a car?
Even the engineers who design very expensive amps or other gear admit that they don't have the ears or know how music sound, they relay in other people for that.
Another thing, rock music is just noise for me. All you hear is tons of bass, a very loud guitar, loud drums and a guy yelling, any lamp wire would reveal those things already.

Jolida Fusion 801 70 watt tube Integrated amp, Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis 200 watt amp, Nakamichi CA-5 preamp, California Audio Labs Alpha DAC & Delta CD Transport, 20 TB PC computer for 24/96 files, Rega Planar 3 Turntable, Sennheiser HD650 headphones, Schiit Valhalla tube headphone amp, Audioquest speaker cables & interconnects, Cardas interconnects and speakers cable and speakers Kimber 4VS cable.
isai95 is offline  
post #22 of 349 Old 11-23-2019, 11:33 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,193
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5547 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Quote:
Originally Posted by isai95 View Post
Even the engineers who design very expensive amps or other gear admit that they don't have the ears or know how music sound, they relay in other people for that.
If that's true it doesn't speak well to the industry designers of these things. If I were buying a car designed for great acceleration and asked the designers what its 0-60mph was, and they responded "We don't know", I'd not buy that car.
m. zillch is offline  
post #23 of 349 Old 11-23-2019, 02:09 PM
Member
 
isai95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If that's true it doesn't speak well to the industry designers of these things.
Most people don't believe about the audio industry. To start, who believes that a room for a studio recording costs about 1/2 a million dollars or more to build? Much less no audiophile expects that the average person believes that a speaker cable may cost $15 ~ $20K.

Quote:
If I were buying a car designed for great acceleration and asked the designers what its 0-60mph was,
If I want a car that makes 0-60 in 2.5 sec I'd buy the Bugatti Veyron not a Hyundai Elantra but I could not afford the Veyron, it does not matter if I believe or not that the Veyron makes 0-60 in 2.5 sec.
Someone may not believe the 0-60 in 2.5 sec spec but is there, same thing with very expensive gear, properties are there. Just because someone refuse to believe or believe is to expensive or cannot afford it, or cannot hear or perceive stuff, it does not mean that those properties are not there. A $150K setup cannot and may not sound the same with a $10 lamp wire compared to a designed speaker wire for that kind of setup, no matter how you slice it.

Quote:
and they responded "We don't know", I'd not buy that car.
Amps designers know the specs and can tell you in detail about every spec but that does not mean that they can hear every property of the amp that they design. They relay in other people to do that and they believe them.

Who in the world would connect their pair of mono amps of $85K XS 300 Pass Labs with a $10 speaker wire? Hypothetically speaking, that would be like buying the $3 million Bugatti Veyron and installing $50 tires because all tires are the same ha, ha, ha, rubber is rubber after all.

Also, you have to make things look good, the looks are very important regardless of sound quality, who would dress on a nice and very expensive tuxedo and were tennis shoes and go to a very nice party where all the eyes of the world will be judging you? I'd wear the most expensive and nice Italian shoes that go with that expensive and nice tuxedo. Why wearing a $10 shoes from the Salvation Army?

Jolida Fusion 801 70 watt tube Integrated amp, Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis 200 watt amp, Nakamichi CA-5 preamp, California Audio Labs Alpha DAC & Delta CD Transport, 20 TB PC computer for 24/96 files, Rega Planar 3 Turntable, Sennheiser HD650 headphones, Schiit Valhalla tube headphone amp, Audioquest speaker cables & interconnects, Cardas interconnects and speakers cable and speakers Kimber 4VS cable.
isai95 is offline  
post #24 of 349 Old 11-23-2019, 02:31 PM
Member
 
isai95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 15
A $50 diamond ring may look to me exactly the same as a $5K or a 50K may look exactly the same as a $500K diamond ring. It really does not matter what is my perception of their value, an expert or even many women will notice the difference but not me. Of course the value is there no matter what I think.

Would I buy a $500K diamond ring for my girlfriend? The answer is yes, if I have the money of course yes. Which of the two rings would give more admiration and smiles when she tells people about the price; the $50 or the $500K diamond ring? Just take a look of a $15K speaker cable and tell me what you see. First thing I see, it is beautiful! just like a woman sees a $500K diamond ring, beautiful rock!

Jolida Fusion 801 70 watt tube Integrated amp, Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis 200 watt amp, Nakamichi CA-5 preamp, California Audio Labs Alpha DAC & Delta CD Transport, 20 TB PC computer for 24/96 files, Rega Planar 3 Turntable, Sennheiser HD650 headphones, Schiit Valhalla tube headphone amp, Audioquest speaker cables & interconnects, Cardas interconnects and speakers cable and speakers Kimber 4VS cable.
isai95 is offline  
post #25 of 349 Old 11-23-2019, 02:36 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,193
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5547 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Quote:
Originally Posted by isai95 View Post
Who in the world would connect their pair of mono amps of $85K XS 300 Pass Labs with a $10 speaker wire?
Me, as well as many others. I only care about the sound quality, not "looks", and there is no evidence that adequate gauge, multi-stranded, copper "lamp cord" bought at a hardware store compromises the sound of music for any listener, listening to any music, through any system, at any price, under carefully controlled conditions to preclude expectation bias and with good statistical significance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isai95 View Post
Also, you have to make things look good, the looks are very important regardless of sound quality, who would dress on a nice and very expensive tuxedo and were tennis shoes and go to a very nice party where all the eyes of the world will be judging you? I'd wear the most expensive and nice Italian shoes that go with that expensive and nice tuxedo. Why wearing a $10 shoes from the Salvation Army?
I'm curious: are you similarly concerned with the appearance of the power cord of your microwave oven?
Out-Of-Phase and NTTD like this.

Last edited by m. zillch; 11-23-2019 at 02:56 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #26 of 349 Old 11-23-2019, 03:13 PM
Member
 
isai95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Me, as well as many others. I only care about the sound quality, not "looks", and there is no evidence that adequate gauge, multi-stranded, copper "lamp cord" bought at a hardware store compromises the sound of music for any listener, listening to any music, through any system, at any price, under carefully controlled conditions to preclude expectation bias and with good statistical significance.
Believe me if you were given for free a pair of mono $85K XS 300 Pass Labs amps and all associated components with them, you don't want to use lamp wire to connect those babies.

Quote:
I'm curious: are you similarly concerned with the appearance of the power cord of your microwave oven?
Most women will prefer the color before anything else! My mom will kill me if I give her a microwave that does not match the color of the other kitchen things.
Same thing with amps, some audiophiles will kill you if you connect their beloved expensive amp with cheapo $10 lamp wires.
I can tell even if the image is 6" to the left or right channel. I can even measure in inches how big is the voice o the lead singer in the sound stage space.

One time I immediately noticed that a $120K audio setup had the channels reversed, left was sounding on the right channel and the right on the left channel. The engineer who was making the presentation was shocked about my ears. I can easily say if a guitar is out of tune or not. I don't even need a tuner to tune my guitar. A have a killer ear.

Jolida Fusion 801 70 watt tube Integrated amp, Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis 200 watt amp, Nakamichi CA-5 preamp, California Audio Labs Alpha DAC & Delta CD Transport, 20 TB PC computer for 24/96 files, Rega Planar 3 Turntable, Sennheiser HD650 headphones, Schiit Valhalla tube headphone amp, Audioquest speaker cables & interconnects, Cardas interconnects and speakers cable and speakers Kimber 4VS cable.

Last edited by isai95; 11-23-2019 at 03:25 PM.
isai95 is offline  
post #27 of 349 Old 11-23-2019, 03:24 PM
Senior Member
 
Out-Of-Phase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 455
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Liked: 308
"Who in the world would connect their pair of mono amps of $85K XS 300 Pass Labs with a $10 speaker wire?"

Who in the world using their educated, scientific mind would spend $85K on a pair of bling mono power amps?
Shintsu, m. zillch, CSG123 and 1 others like this.

Save your money.
Out-Of-Phase is offline  
post #28 of 349 Old 11-23-2019, 03:27 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,193
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5547 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
I've worked professionally in this field for decades so I can even cite many of the groundbreaking tests which first exposed the many myths being pushed by the industry, since I actually read them right when they were published. The first big article where careful double blind testing on this topic was conducted using what at the time was reference quality gear spelled it out for me:


Read it for yourself.
The article starts on page 46:

"Do audiophile speaker cables make a difference?"

" Conclusions
Our tests were certainly not exhaustive, since only three different cables were compared. Yet the results demonstrate that while Monster Cable and 16-gauge lamp cord are both audibly different from and probably superior to 24-gauge wire, 16-gauge is good enough to be indistinguishable from Monster Cable when playing music. An esoteric cable would have to be substantially better than Monster Cable in order to be demonstrably superior to 16-gauge wire. One of the listeners on the panel ran a quick but controlled listening test of Monster Cable against high-capacitance Mogami Cable (with its “damper” removed) and 8-gauge Levinson HF-lOC twin-lead, both products more costly than Monster Cable. He did no better in distinguishing Monster Cable from the other two than chance would allow.

So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring, comparing, and listening to speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster Cable are indistinguishable from each other with music and seem to be superior to the 24-gauge wire commonly sold or given away as “speaker cable.” Remember, however, that it was a measurable characteristic—higher resistance per foot—that made 24-gauge sound different from the other cables. If the cable runs were only 6 instead of 30 feet, the overall cable resistances would have been lower and our tests would probably have found no audible differences between the three cables. This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires."

Stereo Review changed their name to Sound and Vision magazine c. 2000. They are the largest and oldest audio magazine, at least in the U.S..

Last edited by m. zillch; 11-23-2019 at 03:50 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #29 of 349 Old 11-23-2019, 03:39 PM
Member
 
isai95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
"Who in the world would connect their pair of mono amps of $85K XS 300 Pass Labs with a $10 speaker wire?"

Who in the world using their educated, scientific mind would spend $85K on a pair of bling mono power amps?
Not a regular Joe though, but there are people who have lots of cash. There are always two kinds of people the ones that have taste and the ones that don't, the ones that spend enormous amounts of money and the ones who save it for others to enjoy.

In a very expensive audio setup there are many experts involved for the whole picture to be seen. You have the amps designers, the speakers designers, the cables designers, the sources designers, the master engineers, the recording Co, the producer, the singer, the instruments used to play the music, the talented musicians, the music arrangers, the equipment used to record the music, the format in which the music is recorded and on and on. Its very complex though. And most music recorded these days is just crap, super bright, thin, dry, horrible recordings, like the recording engineers have no ears at all.

It's OK not to have taste though to each its own. This is a free country.

Jolida Fusion 801 70 watt tube Integrated amp, Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis 200 watt amp, Nakamichi CA-5 preamp, California Audio Labs Alpha DAC & Delta CD Transport, 20 TB PC computer for 24/96 files, Rega Planar 3 Turntable, Sennheiser HD650 headphones, Schiit Valhalla tube headphone amp, Audioquest speaker cables & interconnects, Cardas interconnects and speakers cable and speakers Kimber 4VS cable.
isai95 is offline  
post #30 of 349 Old 11-23-2019, 03:40 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,193
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5547 Post(s)
Liked: 3986
Quote:
Originally Posted by isai95 View Post
Believe me if you were given for free a pair of mono $85K XS 300 Pass Labs amps and all associated components with them, you don't want to use lamp wire to connect those babies.
Believe me, I would.

I also consider myself to have good hearing and good taste.
m. zillch is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply 2-Channel Audio

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off