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post #361 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
Personally, I just don't find any solid support for audible differences actually existing if a DBT is being done properly.
Over a decade before the release of the first consumer digital gear [CD, c. 1982] we had studio digital gear. First digital delays [Ampex ADD-1] which maxed out at recording only a matter of seconds but then even full length albums thanks to Denon in cooperation with the NHK in Japan.


DBTs of "live vs recorded" was the very first thing the recording engineers did with these machines and their jaws dropped to the floor. "Yikes, we just invented indistinguishable perfection! I think we are in 1984." [Saying "1984", referring to the George Orwell book, is how we said "the future" back then, kids.] I bet they turned to their analog tape machine and said, "Sorry old friend, but the writing is on the wall. In not too many years you will no longer be made."

Digitally recorded on the Denon DN-023R in late 1970, released on LP, January 1971:

I assume there's lots of analog processing going on prior to the master tape though so not really "100%" digital.
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post #362 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Over a decade before the release of the first consumer digital gear [CD, 1982] we had studio digital gear. First digital delays [Ampex ADD-1] which maxed out at recording only a matter of seconds but then even full length albums thanks to Denon in cooperation with the NHK in Japan.


DBTs of "live vs recorded" was the very first thing the recording engineers did with these machines and their jaws dropped to the floor. "Yikes, we just invented indistinguishable perfection! I think we are in 1984." [Saying "1984", referring to the George Orwell book, is how we said "the future" back then, kids.] I bet they turned to their analog tape machine and said, "Sorry old friend, but the writing is on the wall. In not too many years you will no longer be made."

Digitally recorded on the Denon DN-023R in late 1970, released on LP, January 1971:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFH-bpQWEPg

I assume there's lots of analog processing going on prior to the master tape though so not really "100%" digital.
I worked for Sony in the early 80s for a few years until they shut down their business product division. We had envisioned the 12" laser disk for medical records use because we had little in the way of HDs that were affordable, even for big hospitals given the quantity they needed. If I recall correctly, a 55mb HD was in the range of $15k and they needed a big bunch of them for their application.

I am familiar with engineers' reaction to digital and I just never understood. All they seemed to be looking at was noise floor, nothing else.
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post #363 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I am familiar with engineers' reaction to digital and I just never understood. All they seemed to be looking at was noise floor, nothing else.
A properly conducted DBT tests everything in total, not just noise floor. It tests if A is audubly distinguishable from B, in any regards, and the listener can focus on as many criteria as they want to.
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post #364 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
OK, gotcha.

I would call it a horror movie with an illogical conclusion.

Personally, I just don't find any solid support for audible differences actually existing if a DBT is being done properly. If there are, then either the DAC is purposefully being designed for non-linearity, as imagic stated. Or it's defective.





With slight output voltage differences, visual cues or lack of trials not being sufficiently accounted for in blind testing, of course, many DACs can still sound different.

But I know you've heard this all before. And you're not convinced. Yet.
Correct.

There are meds to cure the DBTs …. Windowpane, Blotter, Purple Microdot, etc. A little of that and you'll hear some of what I 'hear'
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post #365 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
A properly conducted DBT tests everything in total, not just noise floor. It tests if A is audubly distinguishable from B and the listener can use any criteria they want to.
See my previous post.

@imagic , am I doin good? Hopefully AVS will be able to pay its bills next month?

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post #366 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
A properly conducted DBT tests everything in total, not just noise floor. It tests if A is audubly distinguishable from B, in any regards, and the listener can focus on as many criteria as they want to.
They also can be in any state they choose: drunk, sober, Ohio. . . .
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post #367 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Correct.

There are meds to cure the DBTs …. Windowpane, Blotter, Purple Microdot, etc. A little of that and you'll hear some of what I 'hear'
Oh, the good meds. Nice.

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post #368 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 03:48 PM
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I've had customers who called me a few days after buying a DLP projector who've said "Everything seems fine but after a few beers I suddenly start to notice that spinning color wheel, multi-color trails issue thing you warned me about". [Rainbow distortion] So it just goes to show that perception is altered by being in an altered state.
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post #369 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I've had customers who called me a few days after buying a DLP projector who've said "Everything seems fine but after a few beers I suddenly start to notice that spinning color wheel, multi-color trails issue thing you warned me about". [Rainbow distortion] So it just goes to show that perception is altered by being in an altered state.
Oh, 'rainbow distortion' after enough akyhol, oh lordy what i could say!!!!!!

I'll be gud.
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post #370 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Personally, I just don't find any solid support for audible differences actually existing if a DBT is being done properly. If there are, then either the DAC is purposefully being designed for non-linearity, as imagic stated. Or it's defective.

As I've mentioned before here, in the 90's I heard differences between some CDPs and DACs which held up under blind testing conditions.
That doesn't give any information on what caused the sonic difference with respect to the particular pieces of gear. As you say, one or some could have been designed with deliberate or non-deliberate deviations from accuracy.



But since then my attitude is that pretty much any competently designed DAC (e.g. one seeking neutrality/low distortion) will likely sound indistinguishable from another. Even if that's not precisely the case, I don't really care about the "sound of a DAC." When it comes to digital I prefer my source to be neutral so I opted for DACs made by reputable companies who engineer with as little B.S. as possible. I own a Benchmark DAC. I could no doubt buy a cheaper DAC that would be indistinguishable from the Benchmark, but who knows what hi-jinx, or level of competency, will exist among all the alternatives. The Benchmark at least allows for some peace-of-mind given the engineering pedigree.


Basically, for digital at least, I don't want to pay extra money for a "high end" DAC which, if it does alter the sound, will in all likelihood simply be engineered to sound slightly "different" from neutral. Not "better" in any technical, objective sense.



Once I have my neutral digital signal, I don't mind adding my own bit of sauce in terms of coloration (tube amps). And when I use vinyl I'm not expecting technical neutrality.



There are some idiosyncrasies in there, but I'm ok with that :-)
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post #371 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I've had customers who called me a few days after buying a DLP projector who've said "Everything seems fine but after a few beers I suddenly start to notice that spinning color wheel, multi-color trails issue thing you warned me about". [Rainbow distortion] So it just goes to show that perception is altered by being in an altered state.
I will say that one of the most useful cheap toys, given that we didn't have much back then, when in an altered state was kaleidoscope.

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post #372 of 418 Old 01-11-2020, 05:37 PM
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I will say that one of the most useful cheap toys, given that we didn't have much back then, when in an altered state was kaladoscope.
And just the opposite of that would be a Kaleidescape, around $25K (for some configurations) at one point when I was a dealer. Cool idea though, but many technically savvy people cobble together their own home brewed versions.
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And just the opposite of that would be a Kaleidescape, around $25K (for some configurations) at one point when I was a dealer. Cool idea though, but many technically savvy people cobble together their own home brewed versions.
The thought of that makes me want to break out into song

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post #374 of 418 Old 01-13-2020, 12:35 PM
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Anyone knows anything about this DAC? Is it that terrific?

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post #375 of 418 Old 01-13-2020, 01:31 PM
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R2D2 (R-2R) will make you a believer of The Force!


Quote from: https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/d...tal-turntable/



"Converting vinyl lovers to digital music is like converting vegetarians, that will most likely never happen. Well, except if a digital source is not sounding “digital” anymore. That was the basic idea behind R-2R Ladder DACs..."



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #376 of 418 Old 01-13-2020, 01:50 PM
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R2D2 (R-2R) will make you a believer of The Force!


Quote from: https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/d...tal-turntable/



"Converting vinyl lovers to digital music is like converting vegetarians, that will most likely never happen. Well, except if a digital source is not sounding “digital” anymore. That was the basic idea behind R-2R Ladder DACs..."
Can't use TT right due to the huge cataract in my right eye. Peripheral vision sucks, but more than that is the depth perception so I'm not safe for my LP collection or a $5,400 cartridge until its fixed.

I'm almost 100% streaming so that's been the big conversion compared to my stand just a couple of years ago, but I wouldn't mind if it sounded as good as my analog. If this DAC would help me get there a bit, I'm game for trying it.
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Hey, digital purists will insist that using a DAC to "degrade" the sound to vinyl quality is anathema!

Have fun.


Get those Cadillac's fixed. Only takes a few hours.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #378 of 418 Old 01-13-2020, 02:02 PM
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Hey, digital purists will insist that using a DAC to "degrade" the sound to vinyl quality is anathema!

Have fun.

Get those Cadillac's fixed. Only takes a few hours.
It's two months to get into this guy and I had to delay because I have three closing scheduled for the next day so eye had to wait. It'll all get done in due time.

Glad I got convinced to give Tidal a try. It's on all day nearly everyday.
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post #379 of 418 Old 01-13-2020, 02:08 PM
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Anyone knows anything about this DAC? Is it that terrific?
I quit not too far in when he said digital sound reproduction is "boring". That's like criticizing your room's glass window because the glass is so perfect/clean and provides such good transparency you can't visually tell if your window is open or shut:

"My window's glass isn't adding any discernible character or change to my scenic view so I'm faulting it for being dull, lifeless, and boring."

Oh brother. These people don't get it.

The job of a DAC is to let you hear the music it is reproducing perfectly, at least within the limitations of the rest of your system (and room acoustics). DACs, just like glass windows, ideally should be 100% perfectly transparent and most modern ones pretty much are. If one of them adds its own audible coloration/distortion that's inherently wrong if one's goal is high fidelity, as is mine.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #380 of 418 Old 01-13-2020, 05:33 PM
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I quit not too far in when he said digital is "boring". That's like criticizing your room's glass window because the glass is so clean and has such good transparency you can't visually tell if the window is open or shut:
"The glass isn't adding any character to the image so I find it dull, lifeless, and boring"

Oh brother.

The job of a DAC is to let you hear the music, flawlessly. If it adds its owns coloration/distortion that's inherently wrong if one's goal is high fidelity, as is mine.
"because the glass is so clean"

I'm glad I don't have to worry about that
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Anyone knows anything about this DAC? Is it that terrific?

https://youtu.be/x32kMm6E4Pg
CNet, Guttenburg think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Other review I read said it can sound different but not necessarily better than others. Problem is no listen before you buy, No dealers so must be ordered from China

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post #382 of 418 Old 01-17-2020, 07:50 AM
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CNet, Guttenburg think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Other review I read said it can sound different but not necessarily better than others. Problem is no listen before you buy, No dealers so must be ordered from China
The 'order from China' are always the words that worry me.
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post #383 of 418 Old 01-17-2020, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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CNet, Guttenburg think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Other review I read said it can sound different but not necessarily better than others. Problem is no listen before you buy, No dealers so must be ordered from China
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The 'order from China' are always the words that worry me.
"Analog bliss" OK Steve. Ya know, I like Steve's audiophiliac schtick and kudos to him for going independent and making his YouTube channel a thing.

I also understand, from my own personal experience, why you'd put a "happy spin" on products, describing them in a way that appeals to the audience seeking them.

But, what is "analog bliss" I ask? After all, every DAC out there converts the digital signal to analog. Unless you have a TRUE digital amp (in which case the amp is the DAC but the output is STILL analog) what you hear is always "analog bliss."

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post #384 of 418 Old 01-17-2020, 08:14 AM
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"Analog bliss" OK Steve. Ya know, I like Steve's audiophiliac schtick and kudos to him for going independent and making his YouTube channel a thing.

I also understand, from my own personal experience, why you'd put a "happy spin" on products, describing them in a way that appeals to the audience seeking them.

But, what is "analog bliss" I ask? After all, every DAC out there converts the digital signal to analog. Unless you have a TRUE digital amp (in which case the amp is the DAC but the output is STILL analog) what you hear is always "analog bliss."
Could it be the magic mushrooms?

Again.
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post #385 of 418 Old 01-17-2020, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Could it be the magic mushrooms?

Again.
Well, considering that mushrooms upgraded my speakers from sounding good to spewing vivid 3D geometric shapes, in near-infinite resolution and full rec.2020 color right out of the drivers, I'd say "maybe"
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post #386 of 418 Old 01-17-2020, 08:25 AM
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Well, considering that mushrooms upgraded my speakers from sounding good to spewing vivid 3D geometric shapes, in near-infinite resolution and full rec.2020 color right out of the drivers, I'd say "maybe"
Yes, another symptom tends to be kaleidoscope vision in addition to the hearing.
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Yes, another symptom tends to be kaleidoscope vision in addition to the hearing.
Inna Godda Da Vida Baby, over and over and over and over.....

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Inna Godda Da Vida Baby, over and over and over and over.....
With a tribute to

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post #389 of 418 Old 01-17-2020, 10:47 AM
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I quit not too far in when he said digital sound reproduction is "boring". That's like criticizing your room's glass window because the glass is so perfect/clean and provides such good transparency you can't visually tell if your window is open or shut:

"My window's glass isn't adding any discernible character or change to my scenic view so I'm faulting it for being dull, lifeless, and boring."

Oh brother. These people don't get it.

The job of a DAC is to let you hear the music it is reproducing perfectly, at least within the limitations of the rest of your system (and room acoustics). DACs, just like glass windows, ideally should be 100% perfectly transparent and most modern ones pretty much are. If one of them adds its own audible coloration/distortion that's inherently wrong if one's goal is high fidelity, as is mine.
Does anyone here agree with me?
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post #390 of 418 Old 01-17-2020, 12:20 PM
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When the very first electronic devices finally reached "complete transparency level, at least for a single pass through" it was seen as a milestone by audio engineers and briefly made an appearance in truthful advertising. Read this c. 1980 ad's text for an example:
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