Dac Delima - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 38Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 03:58 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
chevman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Dac Delima

I have never owned a DAC and after doing some research, since I really like listening to the playlist I have on my iPhone, I pulled the trigger on a Schiit Modi 2 Uber. I purchase the lightning to USB 2.0 cable and finally get my system put together and... my phone says the Modi device requires too much power. Back to the drawing board. I ask around, look at the Schiit website. According to it, I need the camera adapter from Apple, lightning to USB, and then a USB to USB 2.0. Order the cables, do the update on my phone and.... my phone says, USB Modi device requires too much power.

I unplugged everything, I turned everything off and back on. Anyone got anything? Is it worth the aggravation?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3918.PNG
Views:	61
Size:	1.15 MB
ID:	2684356  

With all due respect to you and your knowledge... I reserve the right to be wrong about what I say and think.
chevman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 04:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,253
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 524 Post(s)
Liked: 270
Can you plug it i to power at the same time with the adapter?

(Just asking, i have never used any dac connected to a phone)
Leeliemix is offline  
post #3 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
chevman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
Can you plug it i to power at the same time with the adapter?

(Just asking, i have never used any dac connected to a phone)
I found this on the website and am ordering yet another adapter, though, this is it for me.

"If you have an iPhone running iOS7 or above or iPad running iOS6 or above with the Lightning connector, you can use the Lightning to USB 3 Adapter from Apple, or the Lightning to USB Adapter from Apple, together with a powered hub to avoid the "this device draws too much power" error. You'll also need a USB cable."

It makes no sense to me, but, it is what it is. If this won't work, its for sale if anyone wants a DAC.

With all due respect to you and your knowledge... I reserve the right to be wrong about what I say and think.
chevman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 07:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mlknez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 2,733
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 583 Post(s)
Liked: 198
use a small dac like this...

https://www.zorloo.com/ztella

Media Room: LG oled65c7, Marantz AV8805, Sherbourn 7/2100, Emotiva A-300, Studer A80, Studer Revox b795, Nakamichi RX-202, HTPC, exaSound e38, Sweetvinyl Sugarcube SC-2, (2) Piega P10, Piega Coax Center, (6) Piega AP 1.2, Hsu VTF-15h mk2
Office: Emotiva mini-x A100, Geek Pulse, (2) KEF LS-50, Goldenear FF 4, PC, NAS 130TB
Bedroom: Panasonic TCP55vt35, Marantz NR1200, Dune 3 Prime, (2) Elac Uni-Fi UB5
mlknez is offline  
post #5 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 08:51 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 3,443
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2014 Post(s)
Liked: 1645
I personally don’t think it’s worth the trouble. Doubtful the Schiit dac would make an audible improvement to your phone anyways.

What are you streaming through?
cegadede likes this.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
Russdawg1 is online now  
post #6 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 10:51 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ClawAndTalon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 1,314
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked: 491
What is the DAC going to be hooked up to?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



"Most theories on audio and audio reproduction will be proven wrong only when the laws of physics change."
ClawAndTalon is offline  
post #7 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 11:06 AM
Advanced Member
 
qirex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 674
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked: 187
The DAC in the $9 Apple audio adapter actually measures really well. The lightning version uses the same chipset.
m. zillch likes this.
qirex is offline  
post #8 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
chevman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
I personally don’t think it’s worth the trouble. Doubtful the Schiit dac would make an audible improvement to your phone anyways.

What are you streaming through?
I don't stream a ton, but I rip my disks lossless and have created multiple playlists based on my mood. I have a variety of music from most genres and tends towards creating playlists from those genres with some crossover.

With all due respect to you and your knowledge... I reserve the right to be wrong about what I say and think.
chevman is offline  
post #9 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
chevman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
What is the DAC going to be hooked up to?
My Rotel Pre-Amp which is connected to a Rotel amp. This is my primary system, not a headphone set-up which I know many do.

When I listen to traditional music, I play 2-channel, which is where the DAC will come into the picture. On occasion, I will play a CD and just rely on the internal DAC of the Blue-Ray to handle the processing.

Otherwise, I'll listen to multi-channel music, or watch television or movies in surround.

With all due respect to you and your knowledge... I reserve the right to be wrong about what I say and think.
chevman is offline  
post #10 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
chevman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by qirex View Post
The DAC in the $9 Apple audio adapter actually measures really well. The lightning version uses the same chipset.
I won't hesitate to blow this unit out of the system if I don't appreciate a real difference in the quality. I will be disappointed though because there is a significant loss in quality from the phone compared to listening to a CD.

With all due respect to you and your knowledge... I reserve the right to be wrong about what I say and think.
chevman is offline  
post #11 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 12:03 PM
Advanced Member
 
qirex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 674
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevman View Post
I won't hesitate to blow this unit out of the system if I don't appreciate a real difference in the quality. I will be disappointed though because there is a significant loss in quality from the phone compared to listening to a CD.
The lightning adapter should sound very similar if you're playing lossless rips. There may be a signal level difference (slightly quieter) or something else that's making it not seem as good.
m. zillch likes this.
qirex is offline  
post #12 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 12:03 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,140
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked: 4435
Quote:
Originally Posted by qirex View Post
The DAC in the $9 Apple audio adapter actually measures really well. The lightning version uses the same chipset.
I think the lightning plug one might use a different chip and it might be even better.
m. zillch is offline  
post #13 of 72 Old 02-13-2020, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
chevman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Awesome... I guess I see or hear for myself tomorrow. I may or may not have a DAC or need one after all. Nothing ventured, nothing gained I suppose.

With all due respect to you and your knowledge... I reserve the right to be wrong about what I say and think.
chevman is offline  
post #14 of 72 Old 02-16-2020, 02:59 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
chevman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by qirex View Post
The lightning adapter should sound very similar if you're playing lossless rips. There may be a signal level difference (slightly quieter) or something else that's making it not seem as good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qirex View Post
The DAC in the $9 Apple audio adapter actually measures really well. The lightning version uses the same chipset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
What is the DAC going to be hooked up to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
I personally don’t think it’s worth the trouble. Doubtful the Schiit dac would make an audible improvement to your phone anyways.

What are you streaming through?
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I think the lightning plug one might use a different chip and it might be even better.
So, for anyone curious and to those who thankfully added to the conversation, I had a chance to connect the Schiit Modi 2 Uber with the powered hub and while it was aggravating, if I had taken more time to read up, I could have avoided some of the aggravation and purchased what I needed in the beginning.

At any rate, comparing using the phones (iPhone 8plus) supplied lightening to miniplug adapter connected to a mini-plug to RCA into the Rotel using the DAC built into the iPhone, versus running the phone through the Schiit there is an audible and appreciable sound improvement. I have not taken the time to measure SPL differences, but they weren't significant to the naked ear. But, both vocally and musically, the sound is much more natural and less tinny. Literally, on one song, the piano sounded like it was played through a can and the voice was electronic compared to playing through the Schiit, which was much more pleasing to the ear. On that particular song, it was downloaded from Apple's music store, instead of ripped lossless from a CD.

At the end of the day I would say that if $100 is an affordable improvement, it is worth the upgrade. I am a bang for the buck guy, and this was a good bang for the buck. There are competitive DAC's for similar money that probably does just as good, but I am happy.
josh6113 likes this.

With all due respect to you and your knowledge... I reserve the right to be wrong about what I say and think.
chevman is offline  
post #15 of 72 Old 02-16-2020, 09:18 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,140
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked: 4435
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevman View Post
On that particular song, it was downloaded from Apple's music store, instead of ripped lossless from a CD.
What song was it?
m. zillch is offline  
post #16 of 72 Old 02-17-2020, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
chevman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
What song was it?
Sorry, I replied, but... not sure what happened. It was Demi Lavoto's "Anyone." This is the only song of hers I have really listened too, I don't generally keep up with current pop/rock music, but this one caught my ear. The downloaded version's piano and vocal performance without using the Schiit Dac would make me not want to listen to this, but with the DAC it is very good.

Other genres include some classic rock IE: Tom Petty, Rush, some Contemporary Christian, some Classical IE: O' Fortuna, some Jazz, blues, etc.
m. zillch likes this.

With all due respect to you and your knowledge... I reserve the right to be wrong about what I say and think.
chevman is offline  
post #17 of 72 Old 02-17-2020, 10:13 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,140
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked: 4435
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevman View Post
Demi Lavoto's "Anyone."
I hardly know pop music myself, but I'm assuming you mean this studio version I just found (of course from a better source than Youtude though):


That's a good selection for the purposes of evaluating audio gear. Simple, uncluttered, natural, acoustic instruments, female vocalist with only minimal processing.

The only thing that throws me is the acoustical space (and mic distance) she's recorded in, probably an isolated vocal booth, is dissimilar to the acoustical space the piano is in (a small, damped room). This could be said of 99% of pop music though, but it stands out more prominently when it is a good, clean recording, like this.
---
Now addressing the forum as a whole.

It would be fun to discuss these sorts of things in a forum of people who understood this has nothing to do with what DACs are used, but unfortunately no such forum exists, to the best of my knowledge.
chevman and ClawAndTalon like this.
m. zillch is offline  
post #18 of 72 Old 02-17-2020, 10:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ClawAndTalon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 1,314
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I hardly know pop music myself, but I'm assuming you mean this studio version I just found (of course from a better source than Youtude though):

https://youtu.be/jW3aJ-3SEVU





That's a good selection for the purposes of evaluating audio gear. Simple, uncluttered, natural, acoustic instruments, female vocalist with only minimal processing.



The only thing that throws me is the acoustical space (and mic distance) she's recorded in, probably an isolated vocal booth, is dissimilar to the acoustical space the piano is in (a small, damped room). This could be said of 99% of pop music though, but it stands out more prominently when it is a good, clean recording, like this.

---

Now addressing the forum as a whole.



It would be fun to discuss these sorts of things in a forum of people who understood this has nothing to do with what DACs are used, but unfortunately no such forum exists, to the best of my knowledge.

Yup! Audio Science Review comes close!

The DAC is the garbage in garbage out machine.

A bad recording is put on a digital file and a DAC makes a true copy; a bad reproduction.

Making a DAC which is does its job with 100% transparency is cheap, easy, and common.

As with other components exotic audio jewelry DACs will add an intentional (but nearly always very subtle) coloration so that it does sound different.

They rely on sighted expectation bias to turn that subtle difference into a night and day improvement.

The following have a gargantuan effect in audio reproduction that no component swap will compare to.

The totally random and unstandardized decisions made in studio production that vary from track to track, artist to artist, album to album, studio to studio, engineer to engineer etc.

The room decision for playback including treatment and listening location.

The speaker decision and speaker placement at play back.

Yet, one or all components subtle colorations are marketed (at a premium) as to providing universal benefit in the face of these gargantuan ever changing unpredictable variables. That’s beyond preposterous, but here we are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



"Most theories on audio and audio reproduction will be proven wrong only when the laws of physics change."
ClawAndTalon is offline  
post #19 of 72 Old 02-17-2020, 10:51 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,140
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked: 4435
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Yup! Audio Science Review comes close!
I had dealings with that guy in this forum, before he, um, left, and I often use that site for the same purpose I do Stereophile's: raw measurement data only. I don't read much other than that there.

Correct me if I'm wrong but to the best of my knowledge he's never gone on record to claim he can hear any differences between DACs that meet the minimum requirements, say keeping them out of the "red danger zone" category, listening to music in a level matched blind test. Yes?
m. zillch is offline  
post #20 of 72 Old 02-17-2020, 11:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ClawAndTalon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 1,314
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I had dealings with that guy in this forum, before he, um, left, and I often use that site for the same purpose I do Stereophile's: raw measurement data only. I don't read much other than that there.



Correct me if I'm wrong but to the best of my knowledge he's never gone on record to claim he can hear any differences between DACs that meet the minimum requirements, say keeping them out of the "red danger zone" category, listening to music in a level matched blind test. Yes?

In his comments about gear he will state language like, “lacks state of the art transparent but nothing that’s audible” or words to that effect.

He only does benchmarks, not controlled listening tests. However, testing a DAC for instance it’s easy to determine when things become audible just in benchmarks. The color gradient is merely levels of more and more SOTA inaudible transparency.

So yeah, I don’t think he’d disagree that staying out of the red will be good enough to not provide audible detriments. Some exceptions might be that a unit has an issue with one output but not the other.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
m. zillch likes this.



"Most theories on audio and audio reproduction will be proven wrong only when the laws of physics change."
ClawAndTalon is offline  
post #21 of 72 Old 02-17-2020, 11:30 AM
Advanced Member
 
Out-Of-Phase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 393 Post(s)
Liked: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Yup! Audio Science Review comes close!

The DAC is the garbage in garbage out machine.

A bad recording is put on a digital file and a DAC makes a true copy; a bad reproduction.

Making a DAC which is does its job with 100% transparency is cheap, easy, and common.

As with other components exotic audio jewelry DACs will add an intentional (but nearly always very subtle) coloration so that it does sound different.

They rely on sighted expectation bias to turn that subtle difference into a night and day improvement.

The following have a gargantuan effect in audio reproduction that no component swap will compare to.

The totally random and unstandardized decisions made in studio production that vary from track to track, artist to artist, album to album, studio to studio, engineer to engineer etc.

The room decision for playback including treatment and listening location.

The speaker decision and speaker placement at play back.

Yet, one or all components subtle colorations are marketed (at a premium) as to providing universal benefit in the face of these gargantuan ever changing unpredictable variables. That’s beyond preposterous, but here we are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
^^^This.

Biased, sighted listening audiophiles on this forum need to embrace scientific evidence.

Save your money.
Out-Of-Phase is offline  
post #22 of 72 Old 02-17-2020, 11:31 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,140
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked: 4435
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
In his comments about gear he will state language like, “lacks state of the art transparent but nothing that’s audible” or words to that effect.
That sort of wishy-washy stance angers me slightly, to tell you the truth. It would be analogous to saying, "Science has finally invented the world's first, truly 100% transparent, 100% thoughput, glare-free glass with zero optical distortion. . . . and next year we're going to make it even more than 100% transparent." Oy.

Last edited by m. zillch; 02-17-2020 at 11:37 AM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #23 of 72 Old 02-17-2020, 11:48 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ClawAndTalon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 1,314
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
That sort of wishy-washy stance angers me slightly, to tell you the truth. It would be analogous to saying, "Science has finally invented the world's first, truly 100% transparent, 100% thoughput, glare-free glass with zero optical distortion. . . . and next year we're going to make it even more than 100% transparent." Oy.


It’s a good compromise tho. You can talk about a thing being better in the correct perspective.

Moreover it’s usually a sign of oversight in design.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



"Most theories on audio and audio reproduction will be proven wrong only when the laws of physics change."
ClawAndTalon is offline  
post #24 of 72 Old 02-17-2020, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
chevman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Well, you guys have taken this discussion well beyond my limited knowledge/understanding. I'm not even going to pretend to be smart about these things. All I know or think about this used piece of electronics is that compared to not using it, I hear an improvement worth holding onto it.

With all due respect to you and your knowledge... I reserve the right to be wrong about what I say and think.
chevman is offline  
post #25 of 72 Old 02-17-2020, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
chevman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I hardly know pop music myself, but I'm assuming you mean this studio version I just found (of course from a better source than Youtude though):
That is the song, she recorded a couple of versions of it, one with vulgarity and one without and released them as singles. I noticed the vocal recording of it sounded echoey compared to the piano, which is kind of distracting. The version I originally heard was the best version (from a likability standpoint), it was one she sang live at the Grammy's and I happened to come across it the next day. Moving, considering the back story of her battles with sobriety.

With all due respect to you and your knowledge... I reserve the right to be wrong about what I say and think.
chevman is offline  
post #26 of 72 Old 02-17-2020, 01:47 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevman View Post
I won't hesitate to blow this unit out of the system if I don't appreciate a real difference in the quality. I will be disappointed though because there is a significant loss in quality from the phone compared to listening to a CD.
I would suggest the Topping D30. It's a better measuring DAC than the Modi 2, costs only a little more, and it uses a separate power supply that plugs into the wall.
raistlin65 is offline  
post #27 of 72 Old 02-19-2020, 02:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DreamWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Dirty South Jersey
Posts: 2,510
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1221 Post(s)
Liked: 745
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevman View Post
Well, you guys have taken this discussion well beyond my limited knowledge/understanding. I'm not even going to pretend to be smart about these things. All I know or think about this used piece of electronics is that compared to not using it, I hear an improvement worth holding onto it.
Admitting it's beyond your capability to understand is a good first start. Now, the second piece -- recognizing that if you hear a difference there's a reason (and it may not be that the gear is "better", it may be that there's a variable you didn't control (sighted bias or, more often, gain matching). Certainly, the two other options are:

1) you have super-human hearing

2) the piece of gear you're testing does add "audible seasoning" and is, therefore, in the opinions of most knowledgeable folks on this thread, NOT audiophile grade (despite what "audiophools" may think) because to be such it must be "transparent". Any gear that adds "sonic sugar" is likely boutique crap that should be avoided and likely is overpriced and anything it can do can be done cheaper and more efficiently with other components (and its effects can be deleted when not desired, e.g., when playing back anything that it makes sound "worse").

I'm going to go with #2 and only after a proper blind test has been performed or measurements show the piece of gear to be "defective" (and if you really can distinguish in a blind-test, the measurements will always support it).
DreamWarrior is offline  
post #28 of 72 Old 02-19-2020, 02:37 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ClawAndTalon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 1,314
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevman View Post
Well, you guys have taken this discussion well beyond my limited knowledge/understanding. I'm not even going to pretend to be smart about these things. All I know or think about this used piece of electronics is that compared to not using it, I hear an improvement worth holding onto it.


Understand that when you test two things with the idea you want to see which is better, you need to ask yourself if you are also equally asking if there could possibly be a difference, and if so, to what scope or likelihood.

Yes, some DACs sound different. The vast majority do not when properly evaluated. Those that do, are doing so intentionally, with a very subtle flavor that even if you heard you wouldn’t give it a preference either way in a blind test. Yet in the sighted test the one you want to be better is better.

There was another guy in another thread who swore up and down that he found differences in transports. There’s no reason to believe there will be one. But, he entered his in-depth uncontrolled listening experiment without the careful consideration of reality as explained above. Scope of understanding an likelihood.

So, don’t be chumpy when you are doing this stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



"Most theories on audio and audio reproduction will be proven wrong only when the laws of physics change."
ClawAndTalon is offline  
post #29 of 72 Old 02-19-2020, 03:50 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,140
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked: 4435
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Yet in the sighted test the one you want to be better is better.
Actually it is better to phrase that as "In a sighted test the one your subliminal mind thinks should be better is better". Because otherwise they snap back with things like:

"Oh no, you are wrong, why on earth would I want to hear that the more expensive one was better because that would mean I would have to buy it and become poorer."

OR

"Oh no, you are wrong, I thought they all sounded the same, because so many here said so, so I tried it myself and happened to like the less expensive one, probably because of its newer Wonder capacitors and turbo jitter reduction technology."

OR . . .
---



As I've said before, the reason we use blind (ideally double blind) testing protocols isn't just because of the biases we know about; its to thwart the biases we don't know about too.
m. zillch is offline  
post #30 of 72 Old 02-19-2020, 06:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
Out-Of-Phase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 393 Post(s)
Liked: 357
OR THIS ONE:

"When I listened blind, volume level-matched, I could not hear any differences."

"But then when I went back to listening sighted, I could hear things, nuances that I couldn't hear blind."

"That proves right there that we need to just trust our ears!"
m. zillch, josh6113 and raistlin65 like this.

Save your money.
Out-Of-Phase is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply 2-Channel Audio

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off