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post #541 of 569 Old 06-29-2020, 08:19 AM
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USB 2 actual rates top out around 30 MB / sec. Just FYI
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post #542 of 569 Old 06-29-2020, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechtheist View Post
I was thinking linearity in the transport of digital signals where it's all bits in and bits out, it's one of the primary reasons for going digital, to get away from linearity issues.
I think with analog the linearity is a tiny roller coaster all the way from full scale down to the noise floor. Here, for example, is L vs R level error of a high end Sony ES SACD player headphone jack I used to to sell measured by Ken Rockwell. Rather than summing the two channels to mono and describing how the level differs from the correct value [what Amir's graph showed] this is slightly different but conceptually also shows linearity error per reproduction level:

back up if that image doesn't embed: https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/so...s/TRACKING.gif

[In this example the error is largely the volume potentiometer itself. The main out probably would be much better.]

With digital (unless it uses an analog volume control) the error is almost non-existent all the way down to usually at least the 80s (dB down from full scale) with even cheap gear, -90dB or greater with good gear, and -100dB or better with great gear.
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post #543 of 569 Old 06-29-2020, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Update:

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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
At first I thought it was broken but then I discovered (for reasons I can't explain) it insists on using USB 3.0 ports not 2.0 [Which is weird because DACs usually communicate at 2.0 speeds, not 3.] Retracted. It now works on a different USB 2.0 port. I might have a bad jack on my laptop.
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post #544 of 569 Old 06-29-2020, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
USB 2 actual rates top out around 30 MB / sec. Just FYI
"maximums" are usually a bit optimistic. 30MB/s is exactly half the spec at 480Mb/s, so that's pretty 'optimistic', more like delusional. Even that figure is still 10 times the 384K/24bit audio in that DAC.
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post #545 of 569 Old 06-29-2020, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechtheist View Post
"maximums" are usually a bit optimistic. 30MB/s is exactly half the spec at 480Mb/s, so that's pretty 'optimistic', more like delusional. Even that figure is still 10 times the 384K/24bit audio in that DAC.
Not delusional. Those are the actual transfer rates of one of my USB 2 flash drives.
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post #546 of 569 Old 06-29-2020, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Not delusional. Those are the actual transfer rates of one of my USB 2 flash drives.
It's the specs I'm calling over-optimistic to the point of delusion. I think we're all too familiar with the slow data transfer rates of thumb drives. I can't think of any other device using USB 2.0 that I've had experience with that does significantly better than the 30MB/s your drive is getting.
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post #547 of 569 Old 06-29-2020, 01:06 PM
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Gotcha. Yeah, the "theoretical" specs are useless and just used for marketing.
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post #548 of 569 Old 07-05-2020, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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New dirt cheap DAC on order (S/PDIF opt. and coax, including the cables I think, not USB):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It has a headphone jack on the back.

Not sure how long this deal will last. There were 12 left yesterday and 6 today. Free shipping (w/ $25 minimum purchase), from the US, and money back guarantee including free return shipping.

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post #549 of 569 Old 07-05-2020, 01:45 PM
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I had to order one, like I don't have enough fricking gadgets as it is. It's not unusual for me to surprise myself when rummaging around looking for something and finding some bit of gear I forgot I owned.

Here's another Waldrep post discussing he's finished with his hi-rez vs CD challenge. You'd think his efforts would be a thread topic here, but then, the likelihood of interesting, useful discourse would be nearly nil.

https://secure.campaigner.com/csb/Pu...qlimx-2jy61770
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post #550 of 569 Old 07-05-2020, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechtheist View Post
I had to order one, like I don't have enough fricking gadgets as it is. It's not unusual for me to surprise myself when rummaging around looking for something and finding some bit of gear I forgot I owned.

Here's another Waldrep post discussing he's finished with his hi-rez vs CD challenge. You'd think his efforts would be a thread topic here, but then, the likelihood of interesting, useful discourse would be nearly nil.

https://secure.campaigner.com/csb/Pu...qlimx-2jy61770

Thanks for the link. Good to see he's a man of science and integrity who admits when he makes mistakes. Bravo. Just like I've said since day one:

- Hi-re$ is a scam and the proof is not a single soul can demonstrate an ability to hear it under controlled conditions.

- MQA is a needless money grab (just like Andreas Koch, inventor of various things including SACD said) and the promoters have been caught telling lies, like this ad's logo, until they were exposed by experts publicly:


https://www.stereophile.com/images/1...QALogo-600.jpg

MQA is not lossless (wikipedia verifies I'm right in their opening sentence), in fact I've posted an ABX test of even my old ears being able to hear the distinction under double blind conditions, but they knew it was what the public wanted to hear so they went with it.

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post #551 of 569 Old 07-05-2020, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
New dirt cheap DAC on order (S/PDIF opt. and coax, including the cables I think, not USB):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It has a headphone jack on the back.

Not sure how long this deal will last. There were 12 left yesterday and 6 today. Free shipping (w/ $25 minimum purchase), from the US, and money back guarantee including free return shipping.
Free prime shipping, if you have prime, no minimum.
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post #552 of 569 Old 07-06-2020, 03:01 AM
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One really telling example is how, as Waldrep mentioned somewhere, you could digitize an Edison cylinder and as long as you used a 'hi-rez' format, you could call it hi-rez and claim all kinds of sonic superiority.
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post #553 of 569 Old 07-06-2020, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechtheist View Post
One really telling example is how, as Waldrep mentioned somewhere, you could digitize an Edison cylinder and as long as you used a 'hi-rez' format, you could call it hi-rez and claim all kinds of sonic superiority.
But see there's infinite resolution and no stair stepping when a cutting head etches a groove, even on a wax cylinder.
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post #554 of 569 Old 07-06-2020, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
But see there's infinite resolution and no stair stepping when a cutting head etches a groove, even on a wax cylinder.
Only fourteen decibels of dynamic range but so smooth.
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post #555 of 569 Old 07-06-2020, 11:38 AM
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This test is flawed ab initio.
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post #556 of 569 Old 07-06-2020, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
But see there's infinite resolution and no stair stepping when a cutting head etches a groove, even on a wax cylinder.
What, do you suppose the jitter fitter? And whither the dither?
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post #557 of 569 Old 07-06-2020, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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This test is flawed ab initio.
Flawed 'ab initio' (a Latin term meaning "from the beginning") in what way exactly? Why won't you tell us?

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post #558 of 569 Old 07-08-2020, 07:19 AM
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Flawed 'ab initio' (a Latin term meaning "from the beginning") in what way exactly? Why won't you tell us?
Not worth my time. Carry on.
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post #559 of 569 Old 07-08-2020, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaby View Post
This test is flawed ab initio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Flawed 'ab initio' (a Latin term meaning "from the beginning") in what way exactly? Why won't you tell us?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaby View Post
Not worth my time. Carry on.
You took the time to post a Latin phrase.
You were asked to explain "why"?
Now it's not worth your time?



Help the flawed testing/thinking novices here.
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #560 of 569 Old 07-08-2020, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post



Help the flawed testing/thinking novices here.
I did not want to debate this as some things are so subjective its not worth it to me. But, for one, any use of iTunes as a point of reference for imported sound is not good as iTunes is not bit perfect. I know as I imported 1.5 terabyte of music using it. But, when I purchased dbpoweramp, I found the sound significantly better and bit perfect. Most times, you get what you pay for.
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post #561 of 569 Old 07-08-2020, 09:54 AM
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Thanks, now the OP will have a chance to respond.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #562 of 569 Old 07-08-2020, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I did not want to debate this as some things are so subjective its not worth it to me.
That's like saying "It is subjective if one can see light (electromagnetic radiation) in the ultraviolet and infrared frequencies."
False. You either can or you can't and anyone claiming they can means nothing without backing evidence. A simple scientifically controlled test can determine if they truly can.

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But, for one, any use of iTunes as a point of reference for imported sound is not good as iTunes is not bit perfect.
A. The original CD sound, File A in my test design, never travels through iTunes (nor the iphone) at all so you can't argue the higher quality "reference" sound has been compromised/mangled in any way. File A, the reference, also never passes through any other gear nor processing. Also you are actually incorrect that File B gets mangled by iTunes as I explain below in B, but even if it did theoretically get "mangled/distorted/compromised" it would only make the task of attempting to hear a difference, any difference at all, even easier not harder: In an ABX test you don't have to state what's "better" you only have to state if there is some difference. Any difference including "inadvertent test-design mangling".

The concern if all the many added steps used to create File B may have theoretically caused an audible difference (indeed possible) only comes into play if a listener can detect some difference. So far of the several people who have been brave enough to take the test not a single one has detected any audible difference whatsoever.

B. The sound of File B is PCM in WAV format (uncompressed), not iTunes' more typical AAC (compressed format), and it does not get re-encoded. If you watch my authentication video you'll see the file is dragged and dropped into the folder and it was not ripped from the CD using iTunes' normal method; I did it with EAC instead, Exact Audio Copy, in WAV mode which makes a bit perfect copy from the source CD song.

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post #563 of 569 Old 07-08-2020, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
That's like saying "It is subjective if one can see light (electromagnetic radiation) in the ultraviolet and infrared frequencies."
False. You either can or you can't and anyone claiming they can means nothing without backing evidence. A simple scientifically controlled test can determine if they truly can.


A. The higher quality sound, File A in my test design, never travels through iTunes (nor the iphone) at all so you can't argue the higher quality "reference" sound has been compromised/mangled in any way. File A, the reference, never passes through any other gear nor processing. Also you are actually incorrect that File B gets mangled by iTunes as I explain below in B, but even if it did theoretically get "mangled/distorted/compromised" it would only make the task of attempting to hear a difference, any difference at all, even easier not harder: In an ABX test you don't have to state what's "better" you only have to state if there is some difference. Any difference including "inadvertent test design mangling".

The concern if all the many added steps used to create File B may have theoretically caused an audible difference (indeed possible) only comes into play if a listener can detect some difference. So far of the several people who have been brave enough to take the test not a single one has detected any audible difference whatsoever.

B. The sound of File B is PCM in WAV format (uncompressed), not iTunes' more typical AAC (compressed format), and it does not get re-encoded. If you watch my authentication video you'll see the file is dragged and dropped into the folder and it was not ripped from the CD using iTunes' normal method; I did it with EAC instead, Exact Audio Copy, in WAV mode which makes a bit perfect copy from the source CD song.
You've won.
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post #564 of 569 Old 07-08-2020, 02:31 PM
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You've won.
Is that an apology?



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #565 of 569 Old 07-08-2020, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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You've won.
Why don't you take the test yourself and see if you can hear any difference between the the two files in the opening post, that is, the original, direct, unprocessed reference sound, called File A (tr0430sec), versus the version that has passed through the cheapo ($7.99) DAC, called File B (tr0430sDACd), and then post your score sheet? Who knows? Maybe you'll be the first to be able to audibly detect the difference we can clearly see in measurements, for example, the change between the two Dropbox images you'll see when you download the two files, I turned into an animated GIF:


. . . that is if your system and listening skills are up to the task to reveal such distinctions.

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post #566 of 569 Old 07-08-2020, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
. . . that is if your system and listening skills are up to the task to reveal such distinctions.
I have excellent D/A converters in both my Bryson SP-3 and BDA-3 and I am content with their sonic signature.
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post #567 of 569 Old 07-08-2020, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I have excellent D/A converters in both my Bryson SP-3 and BDA-3 and I am content with their sonic signature.
Actually if a DAC has any "sonic signature" (a discernible sound of its own it imposes on the signal passing through it) it's a bad DAC if one's goal is accurate, faithful-to-the-source sound reproduction, also known as "high fidelity". Here the goal is 100% total transparency, the very highest level of fidelity there is.

My contention is this $7.99 DAC is indeed "perfect to the ear"--that's what this ABX test determines--however if one were to attempt this test with inadequate gear not capable of revealing subtle distinctions it is quite possible that no differences would be found because the user's system simply doesn't have what it takes.
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post #568 of 569 Old 07-09-2020, 12:07 AM
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You contend his content by contending the content of his system? I'm being contentious. [I think I might have broken something]
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post #569 of 569 Old 07-09-2020, 06:20 AM
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You contend his content by contending the content of his system? I'm being contentious. [I think I might have broken something]
I think you're out of contention now.
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