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post #61 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post
I'm not arguing nor mad...you just seem inept to the fact that another dac MIGHT bring out details the iPhone dac doesn't.
Ok, let me take a crack at this.

Audibly transparent means that every detail of the source recording is being captured and available for you to hear from the iPhone DAC.

So with that in mind, how would it be possible for another DAC (of your choice, no matter the cost) to bring out more detail?

Other than the possibility of it being equally transparent, the only other option left is for the other DAC to alter the signal (i.e., distort it in some way, so it's no longer transparent to the source).
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post #62 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
Ok, let me take a crack at this.



Audibly transparent means that every detail of the source recording is being captured and available for you to hear from the iPhone DAC.



So with that in mind, how would it be possible for another DAC (of your choice, no matter the cost) to bring out more detail?



Other than the possibility of it being equally transparent, the only other option left is for the other DAC to alter the signal (i.e., distort it in some way, so it's no longer transparent to the source).
Let your journey begin.....if not just enjoy the music.

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post #63 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post
Never said it degrades the sound..it's in the analog output stage with dac's that differences are heard.I can appreciate a fun little test like most but if your point of this is too PROVE there are not differences in dac's regardless of price then I'm of the mind you should publish it for all.Is that not a fair question?

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I didn't take the OP to mean he's trying to prove all DACs sound the same.

The test is to prove whether or not this single cheap DAC is audibly perfect.
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post #64 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 08:57 PM
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Ok I get that but isn't my perfect different than yours?...perfect is a point of view.

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Perfect to me means that it doesn't change it in any way. I want to hear exactly what the musician/producer intended.
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post #65 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post
It's not about altering the sound as you say...it's that more detail can be achieved through other dacs.You provided a sample from 1 dac...what is there to compare it too?

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You're comparing it to the original CD(I think?), so "more detail" is impossible. To produce "more detail", as you say, that would require the DAC to generate additional noise on its own that's not in the music, which in my eyes makes it a bad DAC. It's impossible to get more perfect than perfect, so if this DAC is indeed perfect, then it would be impossible for any DAC to be more detailed, assuming those details actually exist in the music.
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post #66 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by richard12511 View Post
You're comparing it to the original CD(I think?), so "more detail" is impossible. To produce "more detail", as you say, that would require the DAC to generate additional noise on its own that's not in the music, which in my eyes makes it a bad DAC. It's impossible to get more perfect than perfect, so if this DAC is indeed perfect, then it would be impossible for any DAC to be more detailed, assuming those details actually exist in the music.
How would he know that unless he has heard it through other dac's?..not just 1 dac?

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post #67 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:07 PM
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Perfect to me means that it doesn't change it in any way. I want to hear exactly what the musician/producer intended.
That is the goal yes...and listening to a source through one dac would give that impression..until you hear better in my experience.

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post #68 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:09 PM
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You're comparing it to the original CD(I think?), so "more detail" is impossible. To produce "more detail", as you say, that would require the DAC to generate additional noise on its own that's not in the music, which in my eyes makes it a bad DAC. It's impossible to get more perfect than perfect, so if this DAC is indeed perfect, then it would be impossible for any DAC to be more detailed, assuming those details actually exist in the music.
Again...how does he know it's perfect?.…he hasn't heard it any other way... especially through another possibility revealing dac?...and detail isn't noise once you've heard it...

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post #69 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post
Again...how does he know it's perfect?.…he hasn't heard it any other way... especially through another possibility revealing dac?...and detail isn't noise once you've heard it...
You don't seem to get that not just me, but everybody taking this test gets to hear the exact same digital song file played through an alternate (ostensibly better) DAC. That's what happens when you listen to File A. You hear the original master source through your own DAC.
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post #70 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by richard12511 View Post
You're comparing it to the original CD(I think?), so "more detail" is impossible. To produce "more detail", as you say, that would require the DAC to generate additional noise on its own that's not in the music, which in my eyes makes it a bad DAC. It's impossible to get more perfect than perfect, so if this DAC is indeed perfect, then it would be impossible for any DAC to be more detailed, assuming those details actually exist in the music.
Original CD on 1 dac...no others...and don't say we'll play it on your own system then...that's like comparing apples to apples.

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post #71 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:15 PM
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That is the goal yes...and listening to a source through one dac would give that impression..until you hear better in my experience.

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The point is, if this DAC is audibly transparent, and "that is the goal", as you say, then it's absolutely impossible for any DAC to sound better. Many DACs may sound different, but different HAS to mean "worse" it this case.

It's impossible for another DAC to be "more revealing", as audibly transparent means by definition that 100% of the "details" have already been revealed(at least in so far as the human ear is concerned). How can you reveal more than 100% of the details?

You might prefer DACs that are less than 100% revealing(to due them adding additional colorations that obscure), and it that case it would make sense to spend more on a DAC to suit your individual desires.
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post #72 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
You don't seem to get that not just me, but everybody taking this test gets to hear the exact same digital song file played through an alternate (ostensibly better) DAC. That's what happens when you listen to File A. You hear the original master source through your own DAC.
Your listening to the file on your own system...not doing A to B in your home on separate dac's...we have to assume the file is an exact copy...it isn't in your view.

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post #73 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:18 PM
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The point is, if this DAC is audibly transparent, and "that is the goal", as you say, then it's absolutely impossible for any DAC to sound better. Many DACs may sound different, but different HAS to mean "worse" it this case.



It's impossible for another DAC to be "more revealing", as audible transparent means by definition that 100% of the "details" have already been revealed(at least in so far as the human ear is concerned). How can you reveal more than 100% of the details?



You might prefer DACs that are less than 100% revealing(to due them adding additional colorations that obscure), and it that case it would make sense to spend more on a DAC to suit your individual desires.
Again...how does he know its 100% right without a comparison?...one listen through one dac isn't the end all to music fidelity...lol..how are you so sure that more detail cannot be brought by another dac?...have you done this yourself?

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post #74 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Your listening to the file on your own system...not doing A to B in your home on separate dac's...we have to assume the file is an exact copy...it isn't in your view.
File A and the the file I played through my $7.99 DAC are literally the same file. The sound then traveled to an ADC to get converted back to digital. This is called File B.

So File B has the distortions of the $7.99 DAC, some extra wiring, and the distortions of the ADC used to get back to the digital domain. My contention is that all those added distortions are inaudible to all people through all systems regardless of price. I have provided the tools for anyone who feels otherwise to prove me wrong by taking the ABX test which you so far have not done.
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post #75 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:27 PM
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File A and the the file I played through my $7.99 DAC are literally the same file. The sound then traveled to an ADC to get converted back to digital. This is called File B.



So File B has the distortions of the $7.99 DAC, some extra wiring, and the distortions of the ADC used to get back to the digital domain. My contention is that all those added distortions are inaudible to all people through all systems regardless of price. I have provided the tools for anyone who feels otherwise to prove me wrong by taking the ABX test which you so far have not done.
You call them distortions but you yourself cannot prove the distortions?...I'm lost really I am.

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post #76 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:28 PM
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Again...how does he know it 100% right without a comparison?...one listen through one dac isn't the end all to music fidelity...lol..how are you so sure that more detail cannot be brought by another dac?...have you done this yourself?

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How am I sure that it's impossible to reveal more than 100% of the details? Same way I can be sure one can't divide by 0, maths

Again this test is just to determine whether or not this particular DAC is audibly transparent, to you. Even if you fail it, it's possible that others might not (cyborg humans 100 years from now might pass it with ease), and it's also possible that you might still prefer other DACs, but, by definition(to your ears), those other DACs that you prefer will be "less revealing".
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post #77 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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You call them distortions but you yourself cannot prove the distortions?...I'm lost really I am.

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By definition a signal traveling through a device (or even just a wire) gets "distorted" but the amount is often below the threshold of audibility. As I contend is the case here.
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post #78 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:31 PM
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How am I sure that it's impossible to reveal more than 100% of the details? Same way I can be sure one can't divide by 0, maths



Again this test is just to determine whether or not this particular DAC is audibly transparent, to you. Even if you fail it, it's possible that others might not (cyborg humans 100 years from now might pass it with ease), and it's also possible that you might still prefer other DAC, but, by definition(to your ears), those other DACs that you prefer will be "less revealing".
Again...how do you know your hearing 100% of the audio through 1 dac as you've not experimented with other dac's?.…a serious question?..not saying it doesn't sound great...I'm sure it does.,but until you hear what can possibly be achieved with other dac's...I'll leave it be.,..and by what can be achieved I mean not distortion or coloration but details that are not heard from one dac to another.

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post #79 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:32 PM
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By definition a signal traveling through a device (or even just a wire) gets "distorted" but the amount is often below the threshold of audibility. As I contend is the case here.
So by bringing up distortion does what if it's below audible detection?

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post #80 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:39 PM
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Again...how do you know your hearing 100% of the audio through 1 dac as you've not experimented with other dac's?.…a serious question?..not saying it doesn't sound great...I'm sure it does.,but until you hear what can possibly be achieved with other dac's...I'll leave it be.,

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Again, this isn't about other DACs, this test is about this DAC. I have indeed experimented with other DACs, but I don't see the relevance here.

The answer to your question "how do you know your hearing 100% of the audio through 1 dac":

Because it's my hearing, and I have the the original to compare it to, and that's the point of the test.
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post #81 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:41 PM
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Again, this isn't about other DACs, this test is about this DAC. I have indeed experimented with other DACs, but I don't see the relevance here.



The answer to your question "how do you know your hearing 100% of the audio through 1 dac":



Because it's my hearing, and I have the the original to compare it to, and that's the point of the test.
Again.,one sample to the original on 1 dac...tell me what did you use to listen to the original file?

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post #82 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by richard12511 View Post
Again, this isn't about other DACs, this test is about this DAC. I have indeed experimented with other DACs, but I don't see the relevance here.



The answer to your question "how do you know your hearing 100% of the audio through 1 dac":



Because it's my hearing, and I have the the original to compare it to, and that's the point of the test.
Your experience with other dac's is revelant imo.

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post #83 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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You call them distortions but you yourself cannot prove the distortions?...I'm lost really I am.
Actually I can prove the distortions of the $7.99 DAC objectively but only a double bind listening test can prove if they are, or aren't, audible through a given playback system, to a given individual, on a given piece of music. For that you use an ABX test and I have provided you with one but you have yet to take it or at least have yet to post your score sheet.
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post #84 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:52 PM
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Actually I can prove the distortions of the $7.99 DAC objectively but only a double bind listening test can prove if they are, or aren't, audible through a given playback system, to a given individual, on a given piece of music. For that you use an ABX test and I have provided you with one but you have yet to take it or at least have yet to post your score sheet.
Ah the ABX test...common Z you can do better..but in this case the distortions are below audible hearing so no need right?

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Ah the ABX test...common Z you can do better..but in this case the distortions are below audible hearing so no need right?
The answer to your question if they are audible is provided by you taking the test.
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[quote=josh6113;59555352]Ah the ABX test...common Z you can do better..but in this case the distortions are below audible hearing so no need right?

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The answer to your question if they are audible is provided by you taking the test.
That's a side step...you said yourself it's below audible hearing.

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post #88 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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You can compare it to what?... another dac?
You have the original song. File A. Listen to it on whatever DAC you want.
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That's a side step...you said yourself it's below audible hearing.
It is my contention that it is but only double blind testing can determine it with some certainty.
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post #90 of 465 Old 04-26-2020, 09:59 PM
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It is my contention that it is but only double blind testing can determine it with some certainty.
No...it either is or isn't...don't hide behind a DBX test Z...you yourself said it's below audible hearing so don't go negating your own self.

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