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post #31 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
Let me just say that it cannot hurt for the OP to do his own comparison test. Just because it may not meet some arbitrary standard that satisfies your or others need for scientific validation doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for the OP.

I think you missed all the points in what I wrote.



1. Wishing to find out whether technical claims can be technically verified, and if claims of audibility can be verified, including by blind testing, is hardly "arbitrary." It's the opposite.



2. I already said that that anyone, OP included, can of course audition gear however they want. If they want to do it under a purely subjective paradigm - try it see if they think they hear a difference - that's their choice. If they want to take a more critical or skeptical approach and look in to the technical claims for validity, or try more controlled testing for bias (as I did), they can do that.


It's up to any individual how much they want to know about a product, how informed they want to be when spending their money. or what they want to learn. No gestapo is breaking down anyone's door making them do things scientifically. But, again, this is a place where you can come to learn more...if you want to. (I'm still doing that myself - many have more technical know-how than I do).
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post #32 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
I say ignore the flotsam and jetsam on this forum. Only you can decide if one sounds better than the other. Most cable companies or their distributors will allow you to audition them in your home.
Come on dude. You've never heard of expectation bias? How about the guy that swears putting an audio grade ethernet cable on his router in the other room improves the audio in the theater? (Yes, this is also real). These expensive cables are a ripoff and there are plenty of people that think they hear a difference even if they really don't (the science explains the phenomenon).
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post #33 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I think you missed all the points in what I wrote.



1. Wishing to find out whether technical claims can be technically verified, and if claims of audibility can be verified, including by blind testing, is hardly "arbitrary." It's the opposite.



2. I already said that that anyone, OP included, can of course audition gear however they want. If they want to do it under a purely subjective paradigm - try it see if they think they hear a difference - that's their choice. If they want to take a more critical or skeptical approach and look in to the technical claims for validity, or try more controlled testing for bias (as I did), they can do that.


It's up to any individual how much they want to know about a product, how informed they want to be when spending their money. or what they want to learn. No gestapo is breaking down anyone's door making them do things scientifically. But, again, this is a place where you can come to learn more...if you want to. (I'm still doing that myself - many have more technical know-how than I do).
I did not miss your point. I don’t care about the point you are espousing. It’s immaterial to the OP’s question. It’s not your job to try and convince others to believe your point of view. There is more than one opinion on this topic.

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post #34 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Come on dude. You've never heard of expectation bias? How about the guy that swears putting an audio grade ethernet cable on his router in the other room improves the audio in the theater? (Yes, this is also real). These expensive cables are a ripoff and there are plenty of people that think they hear a difference even if they really don't (the science explains the phenomenon).
I didn’t say there isn’t expectation bias. So what if there is? If a listener is happy with what they hear, it ends there.

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post #35 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
So, my question is LessLoss C-MARC or Shunyata Delta SP speaker cables ?

Which brand would guys think is better for this system ?
Your question is apparently ambiguous to some here. Are you interested in which offers superior sound quality or which offers the illusion of better sound quality?

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post #36 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 08:57 AM
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... or build/construction quality?



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #37 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
Let me just say that it cannot hurt for the OP to do his own comparison test. Just because it may not meet some arbitrary standard that satisfies your or others need for scientific validation doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for the OP.
Don't even try to convince them, they are too closed minded. I already explained a few time in SCIENCE why inductance of the cable is important, they still stuck in resistance of the cable.I even showed the formula, those are just simple high school physics, they just refuse to see that already.

All they can see is the resistance of the wire, that if you use a 14 gauge or bigger, the resistance is low enough that it doesn't matter and they cannot see beyond that. And they kept talking about science and this is high school science.

BUT, I read those two sites, I can't help but think they are snake oil. It really doesn't help, all the power cord, RCA interconnect that is not that important. If one buy into that, they can waste thousands for those. I don't remember where I saw someone talked about power conditioning and eliminate the high frequency content on the AC line, at least that made a lot more sense. Spending money on a power cord??!!!

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post #38 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Don't even try to convince them, they are too closed minded. I already explained a few time in SCIENCE why inductance of the cable is important, they still stuck in resistance of the cable.I even showed the formula, those are just simple high school physics, they just refuse to see that already.

All they can see is the resistance of the wire, that if you use a 14 gauge or bigger, the resistance is low enough that it doesn't matter and they cannot see beyond that. And they kept talking about science and this is high school science.

BUT, I read those two sites, I can't help but think they are snake oil. It really doesn't help, all the power cord, RCA interconnect that is not that important. If one buy into that, they can waste thousands for those. I don't remember where I saw someone talked about power conditioning and eliminate the high frequency content on the AC line, at least that made a lot more sense. Spending money on a power cord??!!!
Thank you Alan. My point is not really the science. It's as you say the closed minds here and that those closed minds feel the need to convince everyone that their way is the only way.
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post #39 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 11:29 AM
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You can make your own speaker wires if science (inductance, not just resistance) is the tipping point as opposed to just throwing money at wires because if their expensive, they must be better than _________ (place your suggestion here).



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #40 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 11:32 AM
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I have furutech speaker cables..made in japan..japanese copper, i imported the cables. It was expensive but as i had already spent so much money on very high HiFi speakers and amps , i did not mind the expense (Marten Bird II's paired to rogue audio amps). A distinction should be there between premium and exotic cables. I believe in premium speaker cables /analog interconnects if you have a high end setup, i dont believe in exotic cables.
Far as the question you asked, i cant answer that unfortunately, i've not heard of lessloss, i have heard about shunyata research but not used any of their products.

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post #41 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
There is more than one opinion on this topic.
And electrical engineering and physics do not care for your opinion.
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post #42 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 11:52 AM
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What is the difference between Japanese copper and let's say... South American copper?
What is the distinction between premium and exotic wires/cables?
What is the price point of a Hi-Fi, high end, or "don't worry" system that someone should use to determine how much money to spend?



(No need to answer any of the questions. Just adding a few rhetorical questions for levity in these tough times.)



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post #43 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 12:31 PM
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And electrical engineering and physics do not care for your opinion.
Engineering and physics do proof there is reason to have to be careful on speaker cables. I posted high school physics formulas a few times already, it's NOT the resistance of the wire, it's the inductance of the wire. Using just a 10 gauge cable is NOT good enough, inductance is not lower at the proportion of the resistance. Resistance of the wire is NOT even in the picture. Just find the inductance of wires, calculate at 10KHz and 20KHz, you'd be surprised how high the reactance.


The reactance, not only destroy the damping factor, the more critical thing is it introduce phase shift to the signal. All high school physics.


Now, I am not endorsing those exotic cables mention, the one with Litz wire never show a picture how they knit the two wires together, it they are just side by side, that's not going to help as much.



Cable don't have to be expensive, I use copper clad wires( the cheapest of the cheap) and twist them together, $27 a pair, nothing exotic, just physics.

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post #44 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
I did not miss your point. I don’t care about the point you are espousing. It’s immaterial to the OP’s question. It’s not your job to try and convince others to believe your point of view. There is more than one opinion on this topic.


So..."there's more than one opinion on this topic" but we should only hear opinions like yours, and not a different opinion such as mine or others with any skeptical insight to add?



Do I have that right?


Would you like this place to be an echo-chamber of self-re-enforcing "opinions" of only one sort? (Of the pure "subjective" type where everything is always evaluated on "do I think I hear something?" vs discussion of the soundness of the technical claims made in the marketing of a product, and skepticism arising from this is not allowed to be voiced?)


Have you thought this through?
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post #45 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
.. It’s immaterial to the OP’s question. It’s not your job to try and convince others to believe your point of view. There is more than one opinion on this topic.
How do you know what the OP is after, did you ask him in a private communications? He asked for a choice between two cables. Answers were posted you just didn't like, it seems. There was no forced choice OP had to make.
He can decide which way to proceed, right?
As to opinions, yes, just as the saying goes about opinions. Facts would be better though, hopefully.
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post #46 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 03:28 PM
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And electrical engineering and physics do not care for your opinion.
I have not expressed an opinion on the cables.

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post #47 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 03:31 PM
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So..."there's more than one opinion on this topic" but we should only hear opinions like yours, and not a different opinion such as mine or others with any skeptical insight to add?



Do I have that right?


Would you like this place to be an echo-chamber of self-re-enforcing "opinions" of only one sort? (Of the pure "subjective" type where everything is always evaluated on "do I think I hear something?" vs discussion of the soundness of the technical claims made in the marketing of a product, and skepticism arising from this is not allowed to be voiced?)


Have you thought this through?
First of all I have not expressed an opinion on what you are debating. Second the OP did not ask for an opinion on the science of cables.

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post #48 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 03:33 PM
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How do you know what the OP is after, did you ask him in a private communications? He asked for a choice between two cables. Answers were posted you just didn't like, it seems. There was no forced choice OP had to make.
He can decide which way to proceed, right?
As to opinions, yes, just as the saying goes about opinions. Facts would be better though, hopefully.
I can read. None of the responses answered his questions. As always happens here, the same people give their same takes, hijacking the thread.

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post #49 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 03:42 PM
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I would pick the lessloss


https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/lessloss4/1.html



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post #50 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 03:51 PM
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I can read. None of the responses answered his questions. ...
That is an assumption on your part.
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post #51 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 04:10 PM
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I would pick the lessloss
Well, I guess if you have to slum it. . . . Mines 50% better :


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post #52 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 04:27 PM
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Well, I guess if you have to slum it. . . . Mines 50% better :


6 moons should be avoided by all seeking the truth.

thank god audio isnt like jewelry...or is it? I posted the pic cause at least it looks like it costs some money to make yea, 1 oz of gold is set value....but take that 1 oz and hand craft into a necklace or something and price doubles...but still only 1 oz.

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post #53 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 04:33 PM
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First of all I have not expressed an opinion on what you are debating.

Yes you did. The subject is clearly, from the OP, which speaker cables will likely sound better in his system.
As you say ""there's more than one opinion on this topic"



So some could opine: "The Shunyata will sound better in your system."


Some might say: Given your concern is how your system will sound when choosing cables: Technically speaking it's unlikely one of those cables will sound different than the other, or that either choice will sound any better than cable you can get for much cheaper.


You chimed in with a very strong opinion:


MSchott: "I say ignore the flotsam and jetsam on this forum. Only you can decide if one sounds better than the other."


So, in other words: YOUR OPINION is that the only way to decide which one is worth the money is a purely subjective impression. And IGNORE other people voicing a different opinion.



Sorry, trying to paint people with a different opinion than yours as worth ignoring, while claiming you didn't even give an opinion, is hardly going to fly.





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Second the OP did not ask for an opinion on the science of cables.

Again...this forum stands for AVScience. The OP wanted to know which cables will sound best in his system.



Can you tell explain to us how the science of cables has no relevance to the question?


Have you noticed the "sciencey" claims made by the cable manufacturers, which are used to lead audiophiles to expect better performance? Do you think that we should be gullible in the face of whatever a manufacturer may claim, no matter how pseudo-scientific and misleading they might be, and no matter whether they actually produce the performance claimed? Anyone with knowledge on the subject should just button their lips?


As someone pointed out, it's clear you are p*ssed with people who are giving answers you don't like, and that you want contrasting opinions to be ignored, and then at the same time pretending that it's the "other" people who are being close-minded and dogmatic.
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post #54 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 04:39 PM
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I know for a fact some of these deceitful con artists gimmick their wires by purposefully inserting electrical components inside the fat wires which establish filtration exactly like the passive crossovers we all have in our unamplified 2-way and 3-way (or more) speakers. The wires do sound "different" because they deceptively have made them to have a non-flat frequency responses. It is a passive EQ but they lie about it.

I can't say I know anything in particular about these two specific companies except that they are both grossly overpriced for people seeking accurate sound.

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post #55 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I know for a fact some of these deceitful con artists gimmick their wires by purposefully inserting electrical components inside the fat wires which establish filtration exactly like the passive crossovers we all have in our unamplified 2-way and 3-way (or more) speakers. The wires do sound "different" because they deceptively have made them to have a non-flat frequency responses. It is a passive EQ but they lie about it.

I can't say I know anything in particular about these two specific companies except that they are both grossly overpriced for people seeking accurate sound.
What's the definition of grossly overpriced, and what is a fairly priced cable? Is there a price chart that explains this classification? I use furutech in the HiFi setup, am i using a grossly overpriced cable?

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post #56 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Engineering and physics do proof there is reason to have to be careful on speaker cables. I posted high school physics formulas a few times already, it's NOT the resistance of the wire, it's the inductance of the wire. Using just a 10 gauge cable is NOT good enough, inductance is not lower at the proportion of the resistance. Resistance of the wire is NOT even in the picture. Just find the inductance of wires, calculate at 10KHz and 20KHz, you'd be surprised how high the reactance.
I didn't claim that engineering was irrelevant, or I wouldn't have spent years at uni and after studying it. I just don't agree that it inductance particularly significant in most common audio SS/speaker implementations, nor is phase shift particularly audible. I've done a fair bit of testing with this via DSP and most people can't even notice, even in fast switched testing when it is in by normal design, or corrected out.

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The reactance, not only destroy the damping factor, the more critical thing is it introduce phase shift to the signal. All high school physics.
Damping factor is basically irrelevant in almost any modern SS amplifier driver system. And I've posted to you on that before as well.


My point in the reply to the previous post I was answering, was that just because you believe these expensive cables make a difference, the physics doesn't.
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post #57 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
I use furutech in the HiFi setup, am i using a grossly overpriced cable?
Did it cost more than an equivalent BJC cable? Then, yes.

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post #58 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 04:56 PM
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^i dont know how the price compares relatively to BJC, that cable isnt available my place and dont know what kind of pricing it has. i imported furutech from japan so the shipping cost and the import duty has to be factored in as well.

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marten, rogue audio (hifi) bowers and wilkins, belles, onkyo, jl audio, sony, auralex, furutech (ht)
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post #59 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
What's the definition of grossly overpriced, and what is a fairly priced cable? Is there a price chart that explains this classification? I use furutech in the HiFi setup, am i using a grossly overpriced cable?
They make several different ones so I can't answer the question.
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post #60 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 05:11 PM
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^i dont know how the price compares relatively to BJC, that cable isnt available my place and dont know what kind of pricing it has.
BJC have their prices as well as the componentry used on their website.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
imported furutech from japan so the shipping cost and the import duty has to be factored in as well.
Surely, knowing as you do, the import duties, and can have a guess at the shipping, you can compare. Plus you can get the equivalent of the BJC stuff made in any production house in probably any large city in the world, so that would ameliorate any duties and most of the postage.

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