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post #61 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 05:16 PM
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Out of curiosity i just looked up my speaker wire. I bought it at 12 cents per foot but it was on sale. It is regularly about 19 cents per foot. It is audibly perfect for the 2x 12foot runs I use. I did splurge and add nice gold tips to the ends but they are for convenience, not sound quality.

Based on the bouquet I'm getting hints of sandalwood indicative of upper China near Mongolia as the copper's point of origin.

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post #62 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308
...
But that being u.s. pricing and my cables from japan, wont be an apples to apples comparison. there are price variations across countries because of currency valuation, sales tax, gst etc. like in my country, among the u.s. cable brands available, it's not the same pricing as in u.s. none of them are a straight dollar conversion far as pricing goes.

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post #63 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
I didn't claim that engineering was irrelevant, or I wouldn't have spent years at uni and after studying it. I just don't agree that it inductance particularly significant in most common audio SS/speaker implementations, nor is phase shift particularly audible. I've done a fair bit of testing with this via DSP and most people can't even notice, even in fast switched testing when it is in by normal design, or corrected out.

Damping factor is basically irrelevant in almost any modern SS amplifier driver system. And I've posted to you on that before as well.


My point in the reply to the previous post I was answering, was that just because you believe these expensive cables make a difference, the physics doesn't.
I guess all the test I did is irrelevant as it's not DBT even though I spent so much time testing and have people listen. You have to have PUBLISHED report.


I can tell you, even if I have a different "knitting" patent, it sounds different.


I think you people are just close minded. Actually, I was using 12 gauge monster until I ran THD test and found it's really bad, then I started experimenting with multi wire cable. The graphs is better so is the sound.


You ever even have an open mind just enough to ask what if? I know you build your amps, we can talk technical. Just have an open mind and experiment.

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post #64 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
I didn't claim that engineering was irrelevant, or I wouldn't have spent years at uni and after studying it. I just don't agree that it inductance particularly significant in most common audio SS/speaker implementations, nor is phase shift particularly audible. I've done a fair bit of testing with this via DSP and most people can't even notice, even in fast switched testing when it is in by normal design, or corrected out.

Damping factor is basically irrelevant in almost any modern SS amplifier driver system. And I've posted to you on that before as well.


My point in the reply to the previous post I was answering, was that just because you believe these expensive cables make a difference, the physics doesn't.
You said you are engineer that know science, You know how science works, you observe, then you theorize why. This is what I did. I observe the THD increase with 12 gauge, I experimented with multi wire and lower the THD on the bench. Then I put it in the system and compare, then I notice the big.....huge difference in sound, the sound stage and the 3D.


Why don't you just leave room for some wild idea, experiment yourself and see. I take that you are engineer like me. Have an open mind and try,

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post #65 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Why don't you just leave room for some wild idea, experiment yourself and see. I take that you are engineer like me. Have an open mind and try,
I have, many times, and don't hear or measure the differences you apparently do. The litz type construction you mention in a thread about a year ago (IIRC) is also highly capacitive, which can be an issue for many SS amplifiers; oscillation from using these killed many customer's amps that came across my bench for repair especially when this was a bit of a craze in the early 00's, so I'm wary of it as many commercial amplifiers aren't designed as well as yours.


I'm not interested in doing it again these days as I'm actively quad amped and am more concerned with the much larger variation in inductance in drivers, Le(x), and how much it varies with driver position in the motor.

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post #66 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
I have, many times, and don't hear or measure the differences you apparently do. The litz type construction you mention in a thread about a year ago (IIRC) is also highly capacitive, which can be an issue for many SS amplifiers; oscillation from using these killed many customer's amps that came across my bench for repair especially when this was a bit of a craze in the early 00's, so I'm wary of it as many commercial amplifiers aren't designed as well as yours.


I'm not interested in doing it again these days as I'm actively quad amped and am more concerned with the much larger variation in inductance in drivers, Le(x), and how much it varies with driver position in the motor.
That's why I don't go with big names amps. My Nakamichi PA-7 amp designed by famous Nelson Pass that is the improved version of his famous Threshold S300. It oscillated like crazy even with 1500pF connected right on the output connector of the amp. The PA-7 cannot even take the knitted cable I made. He did NOT know how to design with phase margin. It sounded funny because it's at the verge of oscillation.

That's the reason I don't have respect to the so called "famous" designers, they have to prove to me. I design my amps to be stable with over 20,000pF capacitor connected right at the output connector of the amp. This is NOT that hard if you know how to work with closed loop stability, bode plot and laplace transform. This is engineering. If you can make the amp stable with high capacitance cable, you will open your eyes how big a difference those knitted cables can offer.

Problem is the so called amp designers.....particularly guitar amps, they copy the existing circuit ( like Fender for guitar amps), change a few values and called it their own design. They really don't know the stability theory and how to tame it. For us, this is a daily thing, it's a piece of cake to do stability and make it stable. It's science, it's engineering. Try design in RF and Microwave world for stability, it's a different world.


It's a big topic, books are written on closed loop stability analysis. It works particular in low audio frequencies. They use it in Phase Lock Loop. It's the same concept.

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post #67 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Yes you did. The subject is clearly, from the OP, which speaker cables will likely sound better in his system.
As you say ""there's more than one opinion on this topic"



So some could opine: "The Shunyata will sound better in your system."


Some might say: Given your concern is how your system will sound when choosing cables: Technically speaking it's unlikely one of those cables will sound different than the other, or that either choice will sound any better than cable you can get for much cheaper.


You chimed in with a very strong opinion:


MSchott: "I say ignore the flotsam and jetsam on this forum. Only you can decide if one sounds better than the other."


So, in other words: YOUR OPINION is that the only way to decide which one is worth the money is a purely subjective impression. And IGNORE other people voicing a different opinion.



Sorry, trying to paint people with a different opinion than yours as worth ignoring, while claiming you didn't even give an opinion, is hardly going to fly.








Again...this forum stands for AVScience. The OP wanted to know which cables will sound best in his system.



Can you tell explain to us how the science of cables has no relevance to the question?


Have you noticed the "sciencey" claims made by the cable manufacturers, which are used to lead audiophiles to expect better performance? Do you think that we should be gullible in the face of whatever a manufacturer may claim, no matter how pseudo-scientific and misleading they might be, and no matter whether they actually produce the performance claimed? Anyone with knowledge on the subject should just button their lips?


As someone pointed out, it's clear you are p*ssed with people who are giving answers you don't like, and that you want contrasting opinions to be ignored, and then at the same time pretending that it's the "other" people who are being close-minded and dogmatic.
There's nothing worse than people trying to put words in someone's mouth. You're projecting how I feel. I feel he should try them both out and see which one sounds better to him. I expressed no opinion about the science or either cable.

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post #68 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 07:01 PM
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That is an assumption on your part.
It's not an assumption. He asked about the two cables and you did not answer his question. I did.

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post #69 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 07:37 PM
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That's the reason I don't have respect to the so called "famous" designers, they have to prove to me.
Same here. I once approached a well known (then at least) amp designer for a well known brand at a show when I was a Uni student. After approaching and asking his name to confirm his identity, I said "I own 3 of your amps, and here's why I think the designs are rubbish". He was very good natured about it and we discussed amp design for a long time as we toured rooms together during the day.



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Try design in RF and Microwave world for stability, it's a different world.
RF and broadcast were my original training and work for many years. But that was a long time ago.

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post #70 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 07:39 PM
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There's nothing worse than people trying to put words in someone's mouth.

Actually there is something at least as bad: someone who won't own up to what they actually wrote, pretend it didn't have any of the implications it actually had, as a way of never admitting they are being hypocritical.



Again, you wrote:


MSchott: "I say ignore the flotsam and jetsam on this forum.



Who is the "flotsam and jetsam" you tell him to "ignore?" Me? Someone else? I'm betting you won't give any examples because it will show you were indeed rejecting some opinions you don't like.



Only you can decide if one sounds better than the other."



Which I caracterized as you giving the opinion that: the only way to decide which one is worth the money is a purely subjective impression.


Now, if THAT isn't a fair understanding of what you wrote and it's "putting words in your mouth" that you didn't mean to imply, what did you actually mean?









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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
You're projecting how I feel.

No, I am inferring what you mean from what you actually wrote.



It's like if I said "Ignore the idiots on this forum and listen to my advice on how to do it" and you point out "hold on, so there are idiots on this forum? Who? And why should your advice hold the day over those you have deemed idiots?"


And I reply: Stop projecting.


That would be pretty dishonest, right?





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I feel he should try them both out and see which one sounds better to him.

Which is using his subjective impression to decide, right? Exactly what I said you meant, and you claim I'm incorrectly "projecting."





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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
I expressed no opinion about the science or either cable.

You expressed an opinion that suggested that other people's opinions based on the objective science were irrelevant to the question of which cable sounds better. That this should be decided only by the OP listening to the cables.


Why not just own your position, rather than passive-aggressively stating it, trying to diss others, and pretending you weren't taking a strong position on the matter?
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post #71 of 119 Old 05-13-2020, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Same here. I once approached a well known (then at least) amp designer for a well known brand at a show when I was a Uni student. After approaching and asking his name to confirm his identity, I said "I own 3 of your amps, and here's why I think the designs are rubbish". He was very good natured about it and we discussed amp design for a long time as we toured rooms together during the day.

RF and broadcast were my original training and work for many years. But that was a long time ago.
Too bad you live so far away, I would love to meet you to compare notes. I also have two guitar amps I designed and built. They are tubes, dual channel high gain type. I even have power scaling like London Power type. Actually I came up with the so called power scaling and implemented it back in 1978. I didn't know much about electronics at the time. I first use a variac on the amp, but that killed the sound when I turned it down, so I got separate little transformers to power the 6.3V filaments, stacked a few 36V little transformers to power the small tubes and put the variac just on the phase splitter and power tubes in my Twin Reverb and WALA, I got the power scaling. Too bad, I was too young and too poor to pursue a patent and move forward on that. Then I quit music in 1979 and nothing to do with music for a long time. I went back in after I retired and designed and built two of the guitar amps few years ago. But sadly, my interested is no longer in playing, now the amps are just sitting in the closet.


I decided a few years back to get into hifi power amps as I actually use them a few hours a day, this I do enjoy. Actually SS power amps is just a big discrete OPAMP, no difference. I designed Linear IC before, so it's not much of a transition. It's better than playing crossword puzzles for retirement!!!

What do you do in your real job?


One thing in guitar amps, people kept talking about using rectifier tube instead of SS diodes as they want the sag, or whatever they call. In my amp, I put a power resistor after in series with the SS rectifiers. When the amp draws heavy current, the B+ will sag!!! I don't know how that compare with the real thing. But you want sag, you got sag!!!!

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post #72 of 119 Old 05-14-2020, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Actually there is something at least as bad: someone who won't own up to what they actually wrote, pretend it didn't have any of the implications it actually had, as a way of never admitting they are being hypocritical.



Again, you wrote:


MSchott: "I say ignore the flotsam and jetsam on this forum.



Who is the "flotsam and jetsam" you tell him to "ignore?" Me? Someone else? I'm betting you won't give any examples because it will show you were indeed rejecting some opinions you don't like.



Only you can decide if one sounds better than the other."



Which I caracterized as you giving the opinion that: the only way to decide which one is worth the money is a purely subjective impression.


Now, if THAT isn't a fair understanding of what you wrote and it's "putting words in your mouth" that you didn't mean to imply, what did you actually mean?












No, I am inferring what you mean from what you actually wrote.



It's like if I said "Ignore the idiots on this forum and listen to my advice on how to do it" and you point out "hold on, so there are idiots on this forum? Who? And why should your advice hold the day over those you have deemed idiots?"


And I reply: Stop projecting.


That would be pretty dishonest, right?








Which is using his subjective impression to decide, right? Exactly what I said you meant, and you claim I'm incorrectly "projecting."








You expressed an opinion that suggested that other people's opinions based on the objective science were irrelevant to the question of which cable sounds better. That this should be decided only by the OP listening to the cables.


Why not just own your position, rather than passive-aggressively stating it, trying to diss others, and pretending you weren't taking a strong position on the matter?
Again I do own my position. You are trying to frame it to meet your argument.

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post #73 of 119 Old 05-14-2020, 09:01 AM
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Again I do own my position. You are trying to frame it to meet your argument.
I think R Harkness thoroughly & correctly dissected your posts within this thread. The fact that you have chosen not to respond specifically to the points he raised speaks volumes, IMO.
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post #74 of 119 Old 05-14-2020, 09:43 AM
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I think R Harkness thoroughly & correctly dissected your posts within this thread. The fact that you have chosen not to respond specifically to the points he raised speaks volumes, IMO.

Yep. As I predicted: he would not answer to any specifics as to what his earlier statement meant, because doing so would show my analysis is correct. So...evasion as last resort.



But, whaddyagonna do? Internet's gonna internet...


One reason I pursued this with MSchott is that his posts represent an annoyingly ubiquitous sentiment among those with a purely subjective approach, especially in audiophile forums: the idea that they can voice whatever opinion they want, as strongly as they want, so long as it tows the subjectivist line "only YOUR ears can decide these matters!"
But should a more skeptical opinion be put forth by someone else, that skeptic is "close minded" obnoxiously pushing an agenda and dogmatic - strains of this seen even in this thread. It's a double standard that should be called out for what it is.
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post #75 of 119 Old 05-14-2020, 10:28 AM
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It's not an assumption. He asked about the two cables and you did not answer his question. I did.
Yes, he did. But your assumption is that that is all he was after and not open to other suggestions. You don't know so you assumed.
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Y..., as strongly as they want, so long as it tows the subjectivist line "only YOUR ears can decide these matters!"
...
That is interesting and short sighted on their part as a bias controlled comparison also uses the listener's own ears.
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post #77 of 119 Old 05-14-2020, 10:56 AM
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I think R Harkness thoroughly & correctly dissected your posts within this thread. The fact that you have chosen not to respond specifically to the points he raised speaks volumes, IMO.
I don’t care about the points he raises. They are not pertinent to my points.

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post #78 of 119 Old 05-14-2020, 10:59 AM
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So where's OP? How come we ended up debating and OP is MIA?
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post #79 of 119 Old 05-14-2020, 11:32 AM
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I don’t care about the points he raises. They are not pertinent to my points.

Probably best for us all to move on, as we're just going around in circles with this, "deny, deny and then deny some more" response strategy.
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post #80 of 119 Old 05-14-2020, 11:49 AM
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So where's OP? How come we ended up debating and OP is MIA?
Studies show that something like 20% of all threads started are abandoned by the OP, no matter what the forum or the forum topic.

Not proud of it, but I know there have been a few times on various forums in my lifetime where I've started a thread, only to abandon it.

Never intentionally. Just got busy with something else, with the intention to return but never actually got back to it. Or I lost my login credentials and it wasn't important enough to resign up again, etc.
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post #81 of 119 Old 05-14-2020, 12:38 PM
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Probably best for us all to move on, as we're just going around in circles with this, "deny, deny and then deny some more" response strategy.
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Studies show that something like 20% of all threads started are abandoned by the OP, no matter what the forum or the forum topic.

Not proud of it, but I know there have been a few times on various forums in my lifetime where I've started a thread, only to abandon it.

Never intentionally. Just got busy with something else, with the intention to return but never actually got back to it. Or I lost my login credentials and it wasn't important enough to resign up again, etc.
Moderating?



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post #82 of 119 Old 05-14-2020, 04:56 PM
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Too bad you live so far away, I would love to meet you to compare notes.
Same here, it would be interesting.

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What do you do in your real job?
I currently work in systems control engineering as it meant I got to work outdoors for a change. Not very challenging, but I'm retiring soon. Done a whole lot of things as well though. I've stopped repairing gear on the side, but have a bunch of tube and early SS gear to restore in retirement and as I'll soon be moving into much larger digs, I'm currently designing a new 4 way active front loaded horn system.

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One thing in guitar amps, people kept talking about using rectifier tube instead of SS diodes as they want the sag, or whatever they call. In my amp, I put a power resistor after in series with the SS rectifiers. When the amp draws heavy current, the B+ will sag!!! I don't know how that compare with the real thing. But you want sag, you got sag!!!!
LOL, I came to the same conclusion and did the same. I once built a huge guitar comparator that had tons of different circuits copied into it as well as some of my own, so guitarists could come over and with the flick of a switch compare circuits and cabs. It usually confused the hell out of them as many couldn't pic the differences by ear alone. Many of the better players could and taught me a lot. My current guitar rig is a tiny Peavey Rage158 practice combo and the bass rig is a custom 2 way 15/6 (Beyma 15G40/B&C 6MD38) active rig.
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post #83 of 119 Old 05-14-2020, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Same here, it would be interesting.

I currently work in systems control engineering as it meant I got to work outdoors for a change. Not very challenging, but I'm retiring soon. Done a whole lot of things as well though. I've stopped repairing gear on the side, but have a bunch of tube and early SS gear to restore in retirement and as I'll soon be moving into much larger digs, I'm currently designing a new 4 way active front loaded horn system.

LOL, I came to the same conclusion and did the same. I once built a huge guitar comparator that had tons of different circuits copied into it as well as some of my own, so guitarists could come over and with the flick of a switch compare circuits and cabs. It usually confused the hell out of them as many couldn't pic the differences by ear alone. Many of the better players could and taught me a lot. My current guitar rig is a tiny Peavey Rage158 practice combo and the bass rig is a custom 2 way 15/6 (Beyma 15G40/B&C 6MD38) active rig.
Ha ha, great mind think alike. You did the same using a resistor for sags!!! On one of my amp, I have a switch to switch a little on the tone circuit area to get slightly different sound to suit different taste!!!


I don't play anymore, I still have my 75 Les Paul Standard and two America Standard Strat from the 90s. I quit music in 1979 because I found the passion of my life......Electronics, last my whole life time. Designing power amp is just part of my passion of electronics. When I get tired of it, I'll find another electronic hobby to design and play with. At least after I move onto other electronics, I would have enough power amps to last my whole life time, just like I have guitar amps if I ever pick up the guitar!!!


If we ever meet, I am sure we would have fun exchanging ideas and experience.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Same here, it would be interesting.

I currently work in systems control engineering as it meant I got to work outdoors for a change. Not very challenging, but I'm retiring soon. Done a whole lot of things as well though. I've stopped repairing gear on the side, but have a bunch of tube and early SS gear to restore in retirement and as I'll soon be moving into much larger digs, I'm currently designing a new 4 way active front loaded horn system.

LOL, I came to the same conclusion and did the same. I once built a huge guitar comparator that had tons of different circuits copied into it as well as some of my own, so guitarists could come over and with the flick of a switch compare circuits and cabs. It usually confused the hell out of them as many couldn't pic the differences by ear alone. Many of the better players could and taught me a lot. My current guitar rig is a tiny Peavey Rage158 practice combo and the bass rig is a custom 2 way 15/6 (Beyma 15G40/B&C 6MD38) active rig.
One thing I want to see what you think. I read a lot in guitar amp design and even in hifi, people really believe in what kind of caps, resistors, tubes etc., and they think they are so important. They are willing to pay so much money to get a certain caps and all. I am too damn cheap, I always challenge that. I don't know about tube hifi amp, so I am not going to form an opinion just yet.

For guitar amps, all the components I use are the CHEAPEST OF THE CHEAP. I intentionally not using carbon comp resistors, I use all MF resistors. I use ceramic caps for signal path.......yes, intentionally proofing a point, use the cheapest of the cheap ceramic caps instead of the firm caps. I use the cheapest tubes from ebay at the time, I think the brand was Shinghan or something to build my two guitar amps. I use the cheap Illinois caps for filtering, all from ebay. My two amps sound very good to me. The sound is from the design, more importantly, the power scale put the amp in optimal over drive at any level. I believe in the design.

I do the same thing in SS hifi power amps in all my amps. I buy all the parts either from Digikey or Mouser to ensure they are not fake, but still the cheapest of the cheap. Like filter caps, people worry about ESR and pay a lot for low ESR filter caps. For me, instead of paying a lot of money buying the big 33,000uF "audio" grade caps that are like over $30 each ( that's cheap already). I use 4 of the cheap 10,000uF caps that is like $2 for larger quantity. Put 4 cheap smaller caps in parallel, I can easily get lower ESR than one expensive big cap as shown. You see I use a bunch of cheap 10,000uF, I can get more capacitance, lower ESR and most importantly, cheaper!!! I am born cheap. Hell, as much I talked about speaker cable, I buy the cheapest 16 gauge copper clad wires to build my cables and all connectors are from Amazon.

That brings back to the subject of this thread, when I looked at the website and $2000/pair of speaker cables, my god, no matter how I look at it, snake oil comes to mind. I am such a die hard speaker cable believer, but for cry out loud, even if they make the knitted cable, $100 is at least reasonable, hell $2000!!!!

BTW, you did mentioned you saw a lot of amps are not stable with those knitted cables like Kimber Kable, I read an article from Nelson Pass talking about this problem. His friend actually had an idea and patented it..........Putting a Sobal on the speaker end to stabilize the amp. The idea is the speaker is an open circuit at frequency of oscillation, putting a load will stabilize the amp. I bet something like 0.1uF cap in series with 5 or 10ohm resistor will do. I never try this as I tame my amps for high capacitance. But if you have a chance try that. Most amps already have a Sobal at the output already.
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Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 05-14-2020 at 09:09 PM.
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post #85 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
Hi guys,
am setting up my new stereo system. I cannot say I am an Audiophile but I am well aware of things around
So, my question is LessLoss C-MARC or Shunyata Delta SP speaker cables ?
The system is :
Focal Sopra No2
Naim NAC N272
McIntosh MC312
Which brand would guys think is better for this system ? Thanks alot again
Aqua
StayHome StaySafe
I would look at BlueJeans cable. Cables don't affect sound quality at all, so you're mainly looking at appearance, construction quality, ease of use, and price. BlueJeans cable (ime) are very good.
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post #86 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
I did not miss your point. I don’t care about the point you are espousing. It’s immaterial to the OP’s question. It’s not your job to try and convince others to believe your point of view. There is more than one opinion on this topic.
I don't see the harm in trying to save someone else's money. In fact, I see it as a kind thing to do. Of course it's no one here's job to help the op, but I really don't see the harm.

If OP wants to spend extra money to get a nicer looking cable, then he can do that, but answering his question with the honest truth seems like a kind thing to do.

I know that if I was in OP's position, I would love for people to make me more well informed, as it would save me a ton of money in the long run. Sometimes we're not informed enough to ask the right questions, and in that case, I would appreciate answers that explain why my questions may be flawed(rather than simply answering the flawed question).
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post #87 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by richard12511 View Post
I don't see the harm in trying to save someone else's money. In fact, I see it as a kind thing to do. Of course it's no one here's job to help the op, but I really don't see the harm.

If OP wants to spend extra money to get a nicer looking cable, then he can do that, but answering his question with the honest truth seems like a kind thing to do.

I know that if I was in OP's position, I would love for people to make me more well informed, as it would save me a ton of money in the long run. Sometimes we're not informed enough to ask the right questions, and in that case, I would appreciate answers that explain why my questions may be flawed(rather than simply answering the flawed question).

Exactly.


The analogy I've given before: If you were at a jewelers about to lay down 8 grand for a diamond ring for your bride-to-be, and someone with knowledge about diamonds was watching the jeweler try and sell you a fake diamond, would you like to know it? Would you appreciate it if that person spoke up to explain "be careful, that looks like a fake diamond and you can tell by these characteristics...see them there?"


Surely any of us would appreciate being exposed to that knowledge before paying lots of money for false claims.
We don't really think "Well, it doesn't matter if I pay months of salary for this thing, so long as I and my wife think it's real." It's very useful information to know that you could have gotten the same quality for only 40 bucks, buying that fake diamond on-line or something. Knowledge is power. It's nice to make decisions advisedly.


Similarly, IF the claims made for a cable are spurious and IF you could get the same or better cable quality without having to pay boutique-cable prices, then that's very useful knowledge! Some may avail themselves of that knowledge, some won't and go the analogous "if I think it's a real diamond, it's a real diamond TO ME!" route. To each his own, but more viewpoints and more potential knowledge is a good thing to have.
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It's not an assumption. He asked about the two cables and you did not answer his question. I did.

I see your point, but I disagree with it.

OP has come here looking to find the best cables. Yes, he gave two examples of ones that he's looking at, but I see no reason why our answers should be limited to just those.

Putting myself in OP's shoes(or anyone's really), if I ask the question "What's better 'A' or 'B'?" and there exists another option 'C' that's better than both, then I would want to know that. Furthermore, any replies explaining why 'C' is better than 'A' or 'B' would be highly appreciated.

For me, Blue Jeans Cable is 'C', and so that's why I recommended it.

If you disagree that 'C' is better, then I see no problem with objecting to and countering it, as @alan0354 has done. However, I don't think it's fair to say that 'C' is an invalid answer.

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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Exactly.


The analogy I've given before: If you were at a jewelers about to lay down 8 grand for a diamond ring for your bride-to-be, and someone with knowledge about diamonds was watching the jeweler try and sell you a fake diamond, would you like to know it? Would you appreciate it if that person spoke up to explain "be careful, that looks like a fake diamond and you can tell by these characteristics...see them there?"


Surely any of us would appreciate being exposed to that knowledge before paying lots of money for false claims.
We don't really think "Well, it doesn't matter if I pay months of salary for this thing, so long as I and my wife think it's real." It's very useful information to know that you could have gotten the same quality for only 40 bucks, buying that fake diamond on-line or something. Knowledge is power. It's nice to make decisions advisedly.


Similarly, IF the claims made for a cable are spurious and IF you could get the same or better cable quality without having to pay boutique-cable prices, then that's very useful knowledge! Some may avail themselves of that knowledge, some won't and go the analogous "if I think it's a real diamond, it's a real diamond TO ME!" route. To each his own, but more viewpoints and more potential knowledge is a good thing to have.
That's a really good analogy.
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post #90 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
So, my question is LessLoss C-MARC or Shunyata Delta SP speaker cables ?
..
Which brand would guys think is better for this system ?
Better in terms of which has a stronger tensile strength if you were to attach a very heavy weight to the end and dangle it?
Better in terms of which would be better to skip rope with?

Me? I buy speaker wire based on sound quality for the speaker load and wire run I'm using and this notion "looks" and "durability" enter into the decision is mostly concocted to rationalize buying multi-thousand dollar speaker wire when buying wire which is under a dollar a foot is in truth audibly indistinguishable to all people, on all music, through all systems. [I guess there are exceptions like buying a particular color wire to match a wall paint for example.]

People get conned by snake oil vendors and then rationalize their purchase "because the bottle had a pretty label".

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