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post #91 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by richard12511 View Post
That's a really good analogy.
I like the analogy but if instead we agree the sole value of the ring is looks and a vendor is up front that it is a fake diamond, and the buyers are fine with that, I see nothing wrong with such a transaction.

If a vendor says "this sounds better" yet they know it doesn't but are relying on expectation bias to protect them from prosecution then they are evil.

Show of hands. Who else agrees it is evil to lie?

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post #92 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 10:34 AM
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Looks like it's we almost in 100% agreement it's snake oil. $2000 for a pair of cables!!!! How much it is if we add the set of RCA and power cord? Maybe I should go into business make the rare copper clad speaker cable with "special" Aluminum core copper that gives maximum surface area of the copper cover!!! It's a rare production from a special place in China. Just don't say it's "copper clad".

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post #93 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I like the analogy but if instead we agree the sole value of the ring is looks and a vendor is up front that it is a fake diamond, and the buyers are fine with that, I see nothing wrong with such a transaction.

If a vendor says "this sounds better" yet they know it doesn't but are relying on expectation bias to protect them from prosecution then they are evil.

Show of hands. Who else agrees it is evil to lie?
In some sense, I believe a good counter to the analogy is "ignorance is bliss". Perhaps it's more desirable to never learn the truth and live in a world where you can enjoy the thrill of upgrading sound with speaker cables. Upgradeitis can be a fun bug to have, and if one believes they should hear a difference, then they shall.

I know that if I were in Neo's shoes, I would much rather take the "blue pill". Some may disagree.
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post #94 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 10:59 AM
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I love magic. Houdini and "Penn and Teller Fool Us" kind of magic. They are upfront that through cleaver skills, slight of hand, and manipulations they can astound and fool me. That's great, lots of fun, and I'll gladly pay money for it!

But then there are con artists who claim they can cure my family member's cancer with special mental powers or speak to the dead and transfer messages to dear departed relatives. . . for a fee. They are liars and scum. The distinction is clear as a bell in my mind.

An audio vendor who knowingly sells a bogus product, snake oil, is the second category.
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post #95 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I like the analogy but if instead we agree the sole value of the ring is looks and a vendor is up front that it is a fake diamond, and the buyers are fine with that, I see nothing wrong with such a transaction.
Exactly. This is making an informed decision.


I own some audio gear in which expectation bias may be playing a role, but I'm fine with that. I am at least allocating my money in ways that are not based on ignorance (to the degree I can manage to do that).


Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If a vendor says "this sounds better" yet they know it doesn't but are relying on expectation bias to protect them from prosecution then they are evil.

Show of hands. Who else agrees it is evil to lie?

Yes, though the diamond analogy can be extended to cover what I think is also happening in many cases. Even if the diamond dealer himself is unaware he's selling a fake diamond, or is using methods that didn't allow him to identify the fake diamond he's about to sell you, the sincerity of the Jeweler doesn't change the fact we'd want to know we are buying a fake diamond.


I think many high end salesmen and boutique cable manufacturers (and tweak manufacturers) are operating on essentially the same subjective paradigm as the customers, and many "believe it works" just like homeopaths and their clients believe homeopathy works.



Though, when it comes to the audiophile cable industry...yeah...I certainly feel like I detect a particularly virulent level of cynicism in purveyors of that stuff, even if it's also dotted with believers.
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post #96 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 01:24 PM
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It is hard to determine which vendors sell snake oil knowingly and which sell it because they themselves are being conned by others.

One trick I used to use while I worked in the industry was to take a sneak peak at how they wire their own secret systems. Note: I don't mean how they've wired the visible system in their living room which a visitor may see, but rather their secondary bedroom systems, garage, patio, etc.. If you find they have a VPI magic brick on all the components in the garage and boxes of extra green magic markers in the closet to encircle their CDs, then you know: "Wow, this guy really believes in all this silliness."
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post #97 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 02:03 PM
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Who would have thought that the opening post would have started "the same old arguments"?



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #98 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Who would have thought that the opening post would have started "the same old arguments"?

Are there any arguments that are settled?




I'm curious: If you had your way, how would a thread like this go?



Should no one ask questions about cabling?


If they do, should it stick to one paradigm or another - e.g. only the "your ears tell you the truth" paradigm and only those answers will do?


Or the opposite?


Or a mix, where anyone can offer their viewpoint?


I'm just not sure exactly what you'd like to see. Seems to me the answers were informative and generally cordial to the OP's question.
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post #99 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 04:04 PM
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See post #2 .


As for the discussion/topic/argument.... read the pros/cons threads over the past 18 years (that I've been here on AVS). The differences of will never be settled.



Nothing innovative with the properties of copper wire.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #100 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
See post #2 .

Great. But you realize that your post, as a response to someone asking for info about two boutique brands of cable, was just another way of invoking the "same old arguments" right?
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post #101 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Great. But you realize that your post, as a response to someone asking for info about two boutique brands of cable, was just another way of invoking the "same old arguments" right?
They all evolve into the same discussion. My argument is hifi is not always about measurements.

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post #102 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 06:10 PM
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They all evolve into the same discussion. My argument is hifi is not always about measurements.
Who said hifi is always about measurements?
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post #103 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Looks like it's we almost in 100% agreement it's snake oil. $2000 for a pair of cables!!!! How much it is if we add the set of RCA and power cord? Maybe I should go into business make the rare copper clad speaker cable with "special" Aluminum core copper that gives maximum surface area of the copper cover!!! It's a rare production from a special place in China. Just don't say it's "copper clad".
If you go into business, may want to number each cable as a limited run cable so rare. Price can be doubled with such rarity or 3X?
Just like limited edition lithograph.

You have right to this suggestion, no royalty is asked by me.
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post #104 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Who would have thought that the opening post would have started "the same old arguments"?
Just a remake of the old ones.
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post #105 of 119 Old 05-15-2020, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
...


I'm curious: If you had your way, how would a thread like this go?
....
Move along, move along nothing to see here.
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post #106 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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So where's OP? How come we ended up debating and OP is MIA?
Thanks for asking me finally hahahah
anyway, I dont get into any kind of debates/arguments actually. My doubt was simple and you guys made it too complicated with all the discussion.
I know some of you might say my question is not simple and all, but I dont want to get into a debate about it anyway and as far as I am concerned , Yes, it is a simple question. I hardly found couple of you guys suggesting other brands also to look into, thats fair enough to point out, instead of all the debate.
Well, anyway, I wish you guys a happy debating and am off from this thread.
I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but, yeah, I didnt get any info either, not with a clarity and the very purpose of the thread is lost long back.
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post #107 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 10:31 PM
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post #108 of 119 Old 05-19-2020, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
Thanks for asking me finally hahahah
anyway, I dont get into any kind of debates/arguments actually. My doubt was simple and you guys made it too complicated with all the discussion.
I know some of you might say my question is not simple and all, but I dont want to get into a debate about it anyway and as far as I am concerned , Yes, it is a simple question. I hardly found couple of you guys suggesting other brands also to look into, thats fair enough to point out, instead of all the debate.
Well, anyway, I wish you guys a happy debating and am off from this thread.
I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but, yeah, I didnt get any info either, not with a clarity and the very purpose of the thread is lost long back.
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I hope I am not offensive, I just want to put into perspective.



I did made suggestion, Kimber Kable type of multi wires cable......If your amp can be stable with high capacitance cables. They are around $100 or so, nothing fancy, it's scientific.

I am all about science, there is no science in using special metal and material and charge $2000. If I have to spend $2000 extra, I would put it in and buy a better pair of speakers like going to the Utopia Series. Particular, DO NOT spend money on RCA cables and power cord.

If you are thinking about power cord, the best you can do for the money is to have an electrician to pull a dedicated power line from the breaker box just for the system, tell the electrician to use either 12 gauge or even 10 gauge cable from the breaker box. You save money on this.

I am speaking as owner of a pair of Alto Utopia, at least at the same level as your Sopra, I have very good amps also. You don't need a $2000 speaker cable. Put the money where it counts......Better speakers, not burning money in these cables. Think Scala Utopia.....or even upgrade the MC312.....Or try a tube amp like Cary. Your Sopra is efficient enough, you DON'T need a 300W amp. It's NOT bigger the better. There is big trade off between number of watts and the quality of watts unless it's class A, but then it burn so much power and heat up the house. 60 to 100W is plenty unless you run a disco. It's the quality of watts, not the number of watts.

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Last edited by alan0354; 05-19-2020 at 11:28 PM.
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post #109 of 119 Old 05-20-2020, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
Thanks for asking me finally hahahah
anyway, I dont get into any kind of debates/arguments actually. My doubt was simple and you guys made it too complicated with all the discussion.
I know some of you might say my question is not simple and all, but I dont want to get into a debate about it anyway and as far as I am concerned , Yes, it is a simple question. I hardly found couple of you guys suggesting other brands also to look into, thats fair enough to point out, instead of all the debate.
Well, anyway, I wish you guys a happy debating and am off from this thread.
I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but, yeah, I didnt get any info either, not with a clarity and the very purpose of the thread is lost long back.
StayHome StaySafe
Cheers

If I have a few thousand dollars to spend on the system, this is what I would do, sell the Sopra, get this used:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...topia&_sacat=0

Drive a hard bargain, you can get lower than $14K. I bet you will hear obvious improvement. My old pair is Focal Spectral 913.1, which is at level of Focal Kanta, when I get the Alto, it's very obvious an improvement, no question about it, I don't need to carefully listen to the highs, lows, certain songs and all. My Alto is the old model of the new Scala that is still selling new. Scala is $34K new. But you see the used ones are asking for $14K only and you can bargain down. So you out of pocket is a few thousand dollars. I bet you get a whole hell of a lot more bang when you upgrade to the Scala. I buy used, I am born cheap. I always go for the biggest bang out of the buck. I don't care others laugh at me for buying used.

Point is don't waste $2000 on the cable. This is my suggestion.

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post #110 of 119 Old 05-26-2020, 08:34 AM
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Get a good enough system and you will hear the differences. Oh and about that old cable test in Stereo Review which some like to flaunt on here....

"Interestingly, it was not the results of the test (which were mixed, after all), but the article’s written conclusion that set off so much heated discussion. As originally submitted, Greenhill’s balanced conclusion acknowledged that the panel had indeed heard statistically valid differences, at least with pink noise, and that the test should be seen not as a blanket result for all audiophile cables, but simply as research on these three, largely similar test subjects that were distinguishable mostly by level changes easily associated with gauge. SR’s editors, however, rewrote the ending to create something akin to a blanket condemnation of the category and pressured Greenhill to accept the changes, a decision he later regretted. “They felt my conclusion didn’t grab the reader as it should, but that was my point,” Greenhill recalled. “I wanted to conclude that this test wasn’t a fair judge of all cables, but revealed you could tell level differences based on the size of the cable. They wanted it to be a condemnation of [high- end] audiophiles.” (You can read Stereophile’s description of the controversy on stereophile.com; search for “The Horse’s Mouth.”)

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ear-difference
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post #111 of 119 Old 05-26-2020, 08:41 AM
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Greenhill’s balanced conclusion acknowledged that the panel had indeed heard statistically valid differences, at least with pink noise,
So listening through a reference quality system through highly respected reference quality speakers, their listening panel of experts couldn't hear any difference whatsoever on music, except when using pathetically thin (white ear buds headphone thin) wire nobody ever recommends. [Thicker 18 or 16 AWG is considered the thinnest one should consider, except for maybe a clock radio/intercom sort of situation)

Me? I listen to music, not pink noise. Also people with an advanced understanding of psychoacoustics will tell you what this reveals is the only difference was a trivial change in the frequency response, which could have just as easily occurred simply by turning a speaker a few degrees, changing one's seated position by an inch or less left or right, turning one's head ever so slightly, or tweaking a slider on a graphic equalizer just a hair. NO BIG DEAL. Differences in the sound stage and imaging of music however, or anything else whatsoever? ZIP.
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post #112 of 119 Old 05-26-2020, 08:51 AM
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For any of you who may not know, Greenhill had to disassociate himself from the study and throw his previous employer (Sound and Vision/Stereo Review) under the bus in order to land a new gig at Stereophile magazine years later, which caters to speaker wire advertisers selling some for thousands of dollars, not that their reviewers like Fremmer are brave enough to collect million dollar challenges to demonstrate they can hear differences in speaker wire under scientifically controlled conditions (i.e., no peeking at the price tags). . . using whatever music they want.

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post #113 of 119 Old 05-26-2020, 08:57 AM
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So listening through a reference quality system through highly respected flat panel Magnaplanar speakers that are taller than most men, not single listener of their listening panel of experts could hear any difference whatsoever on music.

Me? I listen to music, not pink noise. Also people with an advanced understanding of psychoacoustics wll tell you what this reveals is the only difference was a trivial change in the frequency response, which could have just as easily occurred simply by turning a speaker a few degrees, changing one's seated position by an inch or less left or right, turning one's head ever so slightly, or tweaking a slider on a graphic equalizer just a hair. NO BIG DEAL. Differences in the sound stage and imaging of music however, or anything else whatsoever? ZIP.
This was just with basic cable from 30 years ago. The exotic cable used was Monster Wire! That probably would not even make any tests conducted today. Some of those trivial changes you talk about are audible and should prove the point that even differences in impedances and conductivity of the wire and cables can also make a difference.

Real science for the curious - https://homeaudio.analysis.plus/knowledge-base/
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post #114 of 119 Old 05-26-2020, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by hhawk View Post
Real science for the curious - https://homeaudio.analysis.plus/knowledge-base/
What's your relationship to this company, if any, out of curiosity?

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post #115 of 119 Old 05-26-2020, 09:16 AM
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. . . their listening panel of experts couldn't hear any difference whatsoever on music, except when using pathetically thin (white ear buds headphone thin) wire nobody ever recommends. [Thicker 18 AWG is considered the thinnest one should consider, except for maybe a clock radio/intercom sort of situation)
For any of you not familiar with how pathetically skinny this 24 AWG stuff is (which nobody I know has ever claimed was adequate for a 30ft run in the first place) it is even thinner than a pencil lead!

Left to right: Monster Cable, 16 AWG zip cord, 24 AWG (nobody in audio ever recommends, so it's a weird wire to include in the test):

https://www.soundandvision.com/image...ack.cables.jpg

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post #116 of 119 Old 05-26-2020, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by hhawk View Post
Real science for the curious - https://homeaudio.analysis.plus/knowledge-base/
Nothing more than an advertisement.
I bet you, hhawk, own lots of expensive cables, right?
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post #117 of 119 Old 05-26-2020, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhawk View Post
...

Real science for the curious - https://homeaudio.analysis.plus/knowledge-base/
And, of course this company performs double blind testing and their cables can be statistically identified?

Oh, wait, I may have called this company for their testing results. I was told to read the customers responses.
Really? Bogus evidence? Where is the credible evidence? Nowhere???

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post #118 of 119 Old 05-28-2020, 12:44 PM
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I thought this thread is locked, what happen?

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
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post #119 of 119 Old 05-28-2020, 12:49 PM
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I thought this thread is locked, what happen?
somebody found the key ..........
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