LessLoss or Shunyata ? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 109 Old 05-09-2020, 01:45 AM - Thread Starter
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LessLoss or Shunyata ?

Hi guys,
am setting up my new stereo system. I cannot say I am an Audiophile but I am well aware of things around
So, my question is LessLoss C-MARC or Shunyata Delta SP speaker cables ?
The system is :
Focal Sopra No2
Naim NAC N272
McIntosh MC312
Which brand would guys think is better for this system ? Thanks alot again
Aqua
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post #2 of 109 Old 05-09-2020, 04:02 AM
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https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm



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post #3 of 109 Old 05-10-2020, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
So, my question is LessLoss C-MARC or Shunyata Delta SP speaker cables ?
Home Depot, Lowes, and other hardware stores sell audibly perfect, copper speaker wires, perfect to all ears, on all music, through all gear. Read more about the secret truth the dealers and the websites which accept advertising from snake oil peddlers don't want you to know here.

Bluejeans, Monoprice, and Amazon Basics also sell reasonable yet audibly perfect under all conditions wires too.

My link has a good chart which explains how the speaker impedance and the wire run length determine the gauge of pure copper wire you need.
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post #4 of 109 Old 05-10-2020, 12:36 PM
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Although, if one desires nice looking, custom lengths and pre-terminated speaker wires... BJC is a good bet.
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post #5 of 109 Old 05-11-2020, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
Hi guys,
am setting up my new stereo system. I cannot say I am an Audiophile but I am well aware of things around
So, my question is LessLoss C-MARC or Shunyata Delta SP speaker cables ?
The system is :
Focal Sopra No2
Naim NAC N272
McIntosh MC312
Which brand would guys think is better for this system ? Thanks alot again
Aqua
StayHome StaySafe

Note that the forum name stands for AV Science. Here you'll tend to find a different view of things like expensive speaker cables than in your usual purely subjective science-ignoring audiophile forums ;-)
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post #6 of 109 Old 05-11-2020, 04:01 PM
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post #7 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 12:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Note that the forum name stands for AV Science. Here you'll tend to find a different view of things like expensive speaker cables than in your usual purely subjective science-ignoring audiophile forums ;-)
I did not understand your point ... LessLoss and Shunyata are not cheap cables, anyway, I know there r even better and even more expensive cables, but I had to select what fits my budget and the point of forums/discussion boards is to ask something to the community which we dont know or dont have clarity about and thats what I did. If the moderators think this topic is inappropriate or cheap, then they will decide what to do.
Thank you anyway.
Cheers
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post #8 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
I did not understand your point ... LessLoss and Shunyata are not cheap cables, anyway, I know there r even better and even more expensive cables, but I had to select what fits my budget and the point of forums/discussion boards is to ask something to the community which we dont know or dont have clarity about and thats what I did. If the moderators think this topic is inappropriate or cheap, then they will decide what to do.
Thank you anyway.
Cheers

The point is that either of those cables will sound the same as any other speaker wire as long as you use a sufficient gauge for the length of your runs. Put the money into some other aspect of your system.

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post #9 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
LessLoss and Shunyata are not cheap cables,
If the sound quality of cables is determined by the price then there's no need to ask questions in forums such as this. You know exactly what wire sounds "better" than another simply by looking at the price.

Perhaps my position, also shared by some others, is unclear. My view is that speaker wires such as these cost hundreds, sometimes even thousands of dollars more than others [Lessloss sells one for $4075 for 6m length, for example), yet these expensive ones offer no audible improvement whatsoever to any individual on any music through any system. Anecdotal claims to the contrary are explained by various mechanisms including, for example, the placebo effect.

Would reading the results of double blind listening tests by independent parties such as the largest and oldest audio publication in the US be of interest? Here:

"Conclusions
. . . So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring, comparing, and listening to speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster Cable are indistinguishable from each other with music. . . This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires. "


https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ference-page-3

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post #10 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 08:36 AM
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I've been using speaker wire similar to this (although I must admit, it was less expensive 40 years ago). Still works great!
https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-.../dp/B01D5H8XOY



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #11 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
I did not understand your point ... LessLoss and Shunyata are not cheap cables, anyway, I know there r even better and even more expensive cables, but I had to select what fits my budget and the point of forums/discussion boards is to ask something to the community which we dont know or dont have clarity about and thats what I did. If the moderators think this topic is inappropriate or cheap, then they will decide what to do.
Thank you anyway.
Cheers

No, what I mean is that there is no good evidence, beyond the marketing claims and personal anecdotes (which are not good evidence) that those expensive after-market cables will alter the sound at all from the stock cable - or any decent cheap AC cable - that came with your device. I mention the "science" part because people on this forum tend to be more oriented to understanding how things work, or at least looking at claims in regards to whether they stand up to rigorous scrutiny. So you'll find most people here have not been convinced that paying extra money for high end AC cables will get you better (or even different) sound.


Hope that clears up the point of my post.
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post #12 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Note the disclaimer:
AVS Forum is not sponsored by or in any way affiliated with AV Science Inc.

Ratman, I'm unsure of the point of your post.


I understand that AVSforum is at this point not affiliated with the AV Science business. But the name remains the same and as far as I know still stands for AVScience (otherwise, what else?). And that this forum still tends to skew towards people interested in gear built on sound engineering principles, with discussions about the engineering, vs forums skewed much more towards audiophile woo-woo pseudo-science?


Anything you disagree with there?
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post #13 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Anything you disagree with there?
Whatever... just conveying the signature of the AVSForum administrator.



A name means nothing.

Like:
Best Buy - are they really the best?
Whole Foods - are all of their products whole?
Is the What's Best Forum really only talk about what's best?
What about the other Audio Science Review forum? Are they really scientifically better/smarter with their reviews?



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post #14 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Whatever... just conveying the signature of the AVSForum administrator.



A name means nothing.

Like:
Best Buy - are they really the best?
Whole Foods - are all of there products whole?
Is the What's Best Forum really only talk about what's best?

Ok, I just thought that maybe the distinction you posted had some point in regards to the conversation that I was missing. I'm still unclear about the relevance.




Quote:
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What about the other Audio Science Review forum? Are they really scientifically better/smarter?

I'd say that forum is, if anything, even more towards the "objectivist" side of looking to verifiable/objective evidence for audio claims. The membership there skews that way even heavier than the membership here from what I've seen in participating in both forums.



There seems to be some snark in your comments. Not sure where it's coming from. Why do you ask?
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post #15 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I'd say that forum is, if anything, even more towards the "objectivist" side of looking to verifiable/objective evidence for audio claims.
Depends on the poster and the information provided.



Sorry if you took offense. It wasn't intended.



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post #16 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Depends on the poster and the information provided.

Naturally.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Sorry if you took offense. It wasn't intended.

Whose taking offense? I didn't mean the snark was meant at me necessarily, just that you seemed to have *something* kind of cynical behind your comments that I was struggling to understand. Just wanted to understand whatever point you wanted to make.



Anyway, no point in further perusing the answer I guess. Cheers.
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post #17 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 12:53 PM
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... just that you seemed to have *something* kind of cynical behind your comments that I was struggling to understand. Just wanted to understand whatever point you wanted to make..

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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
I understand your confusion. It may help to know that Ratman moonlights as an armchair forum moderator. He's a bit of a stickler about forum decorum and protocols but without actually having the attendant title and responsibilities of one.

In short, a forum busybody
Not nice.



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Sorry, really don't mean to offend but honestly it's my least favorite aspect of your otherwise useful forum contributions. But what do I know, maybe others find it helpful.
But you blatantly did. Let's leave it at that. If you want to bust my chops, PM me.

OTOH, do you have something useful to contribute to the OP's question(s)? If not...



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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
again, with the forum moderating. You simply cannot help yourself, can you?

anyway, I've deleted my previous 2 messages, feel free to do the same.

I will delete this one too, shortly.
Please do. Thanks!



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post #21 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 02:07 PM
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I vote for Delta SP because they make time consuming burn-in a thing of the past. Who wouldn't want to pay a few thousands to not have to deal with speaker cable burn-in?

I'll tell you who. Crazy people. That's who.
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post #22 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 02:19 PM
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I say ignore the flotsam and jetsam on this forum. Only you can decide if one sounds better than the other. Most cable companies or their distributors will allow you to audition them in your home.
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post #23 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
... If the moderators think this topic is inappropriate or cheap, then they will decide what to do.
Thank you anyway.
Cheers
Not at all. The question is appropriate and thanks. The answers you are after may not be forthcoming here though.
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post #24 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
I say ignore the flotsam and jetsam on this forum. Only you can decide if one sounds better than the other. Most cable companies or their distributors will allow you to audition them in your home.

I disagree.


One of the main values of a forum like this is an exchange of information, where if you wonder "is this worth the money? Is this snake oil?" you can get feedback from some knowledgeable people who aren't trying to sell you something.


And one can even learn that "only you can decide if one sounds better than the other" is, itself, not necessarily good advice....IF you really care about what's going on.


IF you follow a purely subjective paradigm, then yes only "you" can decide on your experience what you like.
You may take two different expensive AC cables, try them, and find you "one sounds better than the other."
If that is your only paradigm, then it's very likely you'll hear a difference. Personally, I can't help notice that every pseudo-scientific claim under the sun has been "verified" by exactly that same method.


But if you are more inclined, as some here are, to wonder further than that...but does it REALLY change the sound?
Then you can find out how easily our subjective impressions can be swayed by various biases, and how much more probable it is that sighted bias is the explanation than the very dubious technical claims made by many purveyors of expensive AC cables.



That way someone can make an even more informed decision. Even if the bulk of the info suggests a bias effect is the more likely explanation for what you "hear," you can always decide to pay for the experience of a bias effect...or not.


(I had some expensive shunyata cables to test once, thought I was hearing a distinct difference over my stock power cable, but decided to "really" trust my ears and have a friend blind test them against the stock power cables. Turned out once I didn't know which cable was in the system, those "obvious" sonic differences weren't there to tell between them. I took that as educational and saved a lot of money by sticking with the stock power cable).
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post #25 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 03:31 PM
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Post 2.



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post #26 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian09 View Post
Hi guys,
am setting up my new stereo system. I cannot say I am an Audiophile but I am well aware of things around
So, my question is LessLoss C-MARC or Shunyata Delta SP speaker cables ?
It is unlikely you will find anybody on this forum, myself included, who has any user experience with both specific cable models.

You might have better luck posting your query here:

https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html

In my case, as discussed here a few months ago, I had never compared speaker cables for sonic differences. But I learned by accident that speaker cables can indeed sound different, at least tonally, when a hi-fi buddy replaced my Audioquest GR8 cables with Monoprice #2747 (12 gauge) cables. Through a miscommunication he thought I asked him to change cables (I didn't). Over the next several days I could not understand why the system in our music room (using our McIntosh integrated amp) sounded noticeably warmer. It made no sense. I eventually found out the reason why when my friend mentioned the cable substitution.

During those days while unknowingly listening to the Monoprice cables, I heard no difference in details, soundstaging, imaging, etc. The only difference was a tonally warmer sound. I returned to the Audioquest cable, which sounds more neutral in the system.

It would be an interesting experiment for you to compare the cables you mentioned (if they are refundable) with the Monoprice cable or the Belden or Canare cables available from Blue Jeans. If you do any experimentation, please post your observations.

https://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_...r+Inc.-3512519

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm

Music room: Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000 II linear-tracking turntable.
Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.

Last edited by Alex F.; 05-12-2020 at 06:42 PM.
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post #27 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 04:23 PM
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I am a die hard speaker cable believer, I truly believe with proof speaker cable matter a lot. I built and experiment A LOT with different speaker cables for a while already.....................................AND I had numerous heated debate here defending the importance of speaker cable, I am sure people here can attest to this...........BUT

My god, I read the two sites, it's just so so much......I hate to call that.......crap......... it's not even funny. This really give bad name to "high end".

LessLoss said it's based on Litz cable, that is more in line with my believe how the speaker cable should be, BUT, with all the BS, I couldn't find a picture of the speaker cable to confirm.

The other one didn't even show other than fancy. A 99.99 gold bar?!!!!

Holly crap!!!

I own a pair of Focal Alto Utopia that is at least as good as the Sopra, get something like Kimber Kable or any of the knitted cable, it's plenty good already. Spend the remaining of the $2000 for some more practical stuffs.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #28 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 06:56 PM
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I don't understand how people who think adequate gauge speaker wires supposedly "sound different" even make their buying decisions. Say you audition a wire and it sounds good on your speakers so you keep it, but then some day decide to buy new speakers. Do you then have to start all over again and go out and buy new speaker wires every time you get new speakers?
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post #29 of 109 Old 05-12-2020, 07:19 PM
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^Plus unlike lets say a headphone extension cable, where you just want to be sure its insertion into the signal path doesn't cause any alteration in the sound, with speaker wires you can't audition potential new ones at a dealer or a friend's house unless they happen to have the exact same speakers as you, I assume. [One needs to find good "synergy" I guess they call it.]

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post #30 of 109 Old 05-13-2020, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I disagree.


One of the main values of a forum like this is an exchange of information, where if you wonder "is this worth the money? Is this snake oil?" you can get feedback from some knowledgeable people who aren't trying to sell you something.


And one can even learn that "only you can decide if one sounds better than the other" is, itself, not necessarily good advice....IF you really care about what's going on.


IF you follow a purely subjective paradigm, then yes only "you" can decide on your experience what you like.
You may take two different expensive AC cables, try them, and find you "one sounds better than the other."
If that is your only paradigm, then it's very likely you'll hear a difference. Personally, I can't help notice that every pseudo-scientific claim under the sun has been "verified" by exactly that same method.


But if you are more inclined, as some here are, to wonder further than that...but does it REALLY change the sound?
Then you can find out how easily our subjective impressions can be swayed by various biases, and how much more probable it is that sighted bias is the explanation than the very dubious technical claims made by many purveyors of expensive AC cables.



That way someone can make an even more informed decision. Even if the bulk of the info suggests a bias effect is the more likely explanation for what you "hear," you can always decide to pay for the experience of a bias effect...or not.


(I had some expensive shunyata cables to test once, thought I was hearing a distinct difference over my stock power cable, but decided to "really" trust my ears and have a friend blind test them against the stock power cables. Turned out once I didn't know which cable was in the system, those "obvious" sonic differences weren't there to tell between them. I took that as educational and saved a lot of money by sticking with the stock power cable).
Let me just say that it cannot hurt for the OP to do his own comparison test. Just because it may not meet some arbitrary standard that satisfies your or others need for scientific validation doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for the OP.

Jolida Fusion Preamp, Jolida JD1000P Amp, VPI Scout turntable with Dynavector 10X5 cartridge, Paradigm Studio 100 v.5 speakers, Sonica DAC streaming lossless files. Furman Elite 15 Power Conditioner.
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