Tune your own speaker cables? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 37Likes
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 03:03 PM
Member
 
Will P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Golden Horseshoe Area, Canada
Posts: 113
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
wonder if rew could be used to tune a cable?
I would go with Guitar tuner first... then worry about measurements..

..obviously.

//
... someone said "Music is Art, Sound is Engineering" ...
Will P is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 03:05 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2780 Post(s)
Liked: 2795
You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish.
markrubin and DanPackMan like this.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is online now  
post #33 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 03:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DreamWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Dirty South Jersey
Posts: 2,788
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1421 Post(s)
Liked: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I thought it's a waste of time for you to respond!!! Yes, if your system is good enough. What system do you have? So we can put it in perspective.
It is, which is why I limit my responses to you to that which I can type in under a minute. My system is "good enough" for studio professionals who create the music you use to listen to your wires and amps.
m. zillch likes this.
DreamWarrior is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 04:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alan0354's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2097 Post(s)
Liked: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
It is, which is why I limit my responses to you to that which I can type in under a minute. My system is "good enough" for studio professionals who create the music you use to listen to your wires and amps.
Name them.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
alan0354 is offline  
post #35 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 04:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DreamWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Dirty South Jersey
Posts: 2,788
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1421 Post(s)
Liked: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Name them.

Here's one more -- I leave you to Google any others.
m. zillch likes this.
DreamWarrior is online now  
post #36 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 04:28 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alan0354's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2097 Post(s)
Liked: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
My system... his system, your system. I did the math.

Frog at the bottom.
Sour grapes.
Jewelry that become obsolete.
No subwoofers.
Speakers are most important (if they're the best).
Placement of speakers.
And NEVER...... test with only one speaker!
I am glad you finally get some of these. I did not say no sub, just don't think it's a must. Yes, the most important is the frog.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
alan0354 is offline  
post #37 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 04:44 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alan0354's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2097 Post(s)
Liked: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grRs7vdYkcI

Here's one more -- I leave you to Google any others.
I refrain from commenting on JBL and Harmon.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
alan0354 is offline  
post #38 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 04:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DreamWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Dirty South Jersey
Posts: 2,788
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1421 Post(s)
Liked: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I refrain from commenting on JBL and Harmon.
Because they engineer stuff and you listen with your eyes?
DreamWarrior is online now  
post #39 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 05:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DanPackMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked: 1394
Lots of engineeerment went into my designs. I gots numbers to prove it. You can hear the engineeration in the high frequencies. AND I also have equations. The best sounding equations that's ever been equated. With terms even. And let me just say 'phase' right now because it seems like a good place to throw it in. High frequency resonating phasoration . You wouldn't understand....I've been doing this for years.
m. zillch likes this.
DanPackMan is online now  
post #40 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 05:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 8,427
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4387 Post(s)
Liked: 2544
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
Lots of engineeerment went into my designs. I gots numbers to prove it. You can hear the engineeration in the high frequencies. AND I also have equations. The best sounding equations that's ever been equated. With terms even. And let me just say 'phase' right now because it seems like a good place to throw it in. High frequency resonating phasoration . You wouldn't understand....I've been doing this for years.

phase and polarity is huge...it can make a soundstage non existent to heavenly.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS, Audioengine A2+
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP, Velodyne HGS 12, Velodyne VA1512
torii is offline  
post #41 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 05:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DanPackMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked: 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
phase and polarity is huge...it can make a soundstage non existent to heavenly.

If the impacts on them are insignificant, then what is huge?
DanPackMan is online now  
post #42 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 05:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alan0354's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2097 Post(s)
Liked: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
Lots of engineeerment went into my designs. I gots numbers to prove it. You can hear the engineeration in the high frequencies. AND I also have equations. The best sounding equations that's ever been equated. With terms even. And let me just say 'phase' right now because it seems like a good place to throw it in. High frequency resonating phasoration . You wouldn't understand....I've been doing this for years.
What do you design?

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
alan0354 is offline  
post #43 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 05:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alan0354's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2097 Post(s)
Liked: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Because they engineer stuff and you listen with your eyes?

Wrong, I don't care how things look. I can take a speaker made of pine box if it sounds amazing. I don't like horns, I don't like Klipsch, Altec nor JBL.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
alan0354 is offline  
post #44 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 05:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 8,427
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4387 Post(s)
Liked: 2544
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
If the impacts on them are insignificant, then what is huge?

well plugging in one of maggie speakers wrong...results in crap sound. horrible, no soundstage....did I say horrible...

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS, Audioengine A2+
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP, Velodyne HGS 12, Velodyne VA1512
torii is offline  
post #45 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 05:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 536
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 326 Post(s)
Liked: 450
every time I see one of these topics, I have to check the calendar to see if it’s April fools


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ryan Statz likes this.

LG 55C8, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX503, Panamax M5400, Microsoft Xbox One X, Nvidia Shield Pro
Definitive Technology: BP9060 Front left/right/CS9040 center/A90 front Atmos/ProMonitor 800 rear Atmos/SR9040 surround left/right
Rythmik FVX15
MATTHEW PATIENT is offline  
post #46 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 05:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DanPackMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked: 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
well plugging in one of maggie speakers wrong...results in crap sound. horrible, no soundstage....did I say horrible...
Yes, that would certainly qualify as a significant impact, and very easily measured sound impact. Far far different from tuning a cable.
DanPackMan is online now  
post #47 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 05:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DanPackMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked: 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
What do you design?

Points.
DanPackMan is online now  
post #48 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 05:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alan0354's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2097 Post(s)
Liked: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
Points.
What? You said you design and can provide equations and all. You never said what you design. Speakers?

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
alan0354 is offline  
post #49 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 06:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DanPackMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked: 1394
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
What? You said you design and can provide equations and all. You never said what you design. Speakers?
Is that what it sounded like?
DanPackMan is online now  
post #50 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 06:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alan0354's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2097 Post(s)
Liked: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
Lots of engineeerment went into my designs. I gots numbers to prove it. You can hear the engineeration in the high frequencies. AND I also have equations. The best sounding equations that's ever been equated. With terms even. And let me just say 'phase' right now because it seems like a good place to throw it in. High frequency resonating phasoration . You wouldn't understand....I've been doing this for years.

Are you high?

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
alan0354 is offline  
post #51 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 07:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CharlesJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,974
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 895 Post(s)
Liked: 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
it's crazy to offer to 'tune' speaker cables: ...
I wonder what it sounds like at different tension forces on the wires.
CharlesJ is offline  
post #52 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 07:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CharlesJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,974
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 895 Post(s)
Liked: 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
...


This is very significant, say if speaker is 8ohm at 10KHz, damping factor is 8 divided by 0.9734 = [email protected]. Y....
DF is the ratio of the amp output impedance and speaker load that includes the speaker wire.
CharlesJ is offline  
post #53 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 07:54 PM
sor
Advanced Member
 
sor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UT
Posts: 605
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I just use your number of 0.015mH or 0.000015H and calculate the reactance ( impedance) at 10KHz.

ZL = 2 x /pi x freq x L = 6.28 x 10,000Hz x 0.000015H = 0.9734ohm.



This is very significant, say if speaker is 8ohm at 10KHz, damping factor is 8 divided by 0.9734 = [email protected]. You lose control of the speaker. At 1KHz, ZL= 0.09734 and damping factor is 82. If you have a good amp that damping factor is 500 at 10KHz, you wasted the quality of the amp. All the good that the amp has is destroyed by the cable.


The straight calculation of damping factor does not even give the whole picture. The phase shift caused by the reactance of the cable change the phase of the higher frequencies, this is like moving the tweeter around to a different location, different distance. You know how the sound change when you move the speakers?


Like I said, whether the cable is important depends on how good your amp is. For high end amps that has 4 or more pairs of output transistors, cable is important as the amp's damping factor likely to be over 300 to 20KHz. But if the amp is cheap and has only one or two pairs of output transistors, cable is not important as the amp is not much better. The quality of the system depends on the weakest link of the system. If you amp has damping factor over 1000 like my amps to over 20KHz, speaker cable is EVERYTHING.

You realize you’re talking about tweeters, at 10khz, right? I’ve never heard of anyone worrying that they’re going to “lose control” of a stiff, tiny little piece of film vibrating over micrometers.

I’ve always been under the impression that the importance of damping is relative to the mass of the speaker driver - if you have a giant 18” subwoofer damping is fairly important to help control that mass. A tweeter on the other hand will have no problem being damped by just its own film stiffness.

Look, I don’t think you’re wrong about your RLC calculations, as others have pointed out it IS possible to calculate a tiny but measurable filtering effect due to cable reactivity. However, I think the problem is in understanding the application and relevance.

Lakeview Cinema build thread
sor is online now  
post #54 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 08:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alan0354's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2097 Post(s)
Liked: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
DF is the ratio of the amp output impedance and speaker load that includes the speaker wire.
BUT amp gave DF for amp under perfect condition with 8ohm RESISTOR load.



Yes, if you measure DF at the speaker end, that's the true DF, that's what it really matters. That's what I have been trying to say for a long time here. The better the SS amp, mostly the higher the DF PARTICULAR at high frequency. For these good amps, the speaker cables become very important as a bad cable destroy the DF at the speaker end.


This is more than just different attenuation at different frequencies, there is a phase shift involve from the inductance of the cable and the impedance of the speaker. Both are reactive.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
alan0354 is offline  
post #55 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 09:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alan0354's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2097 Post(s)
Liked: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
You realize you’re talking about tweeters, at 10khz, right? I’ve never heard of anyone worrying that they’re going to “lose control” of a stiff, tiny little piece of film vibrating over micrometers.

I’ve always been under the impression that the importance of damping is relative to the mass of the speaker driver - if you have a giant 18” subwoofer damping is fairly important to help control that mass. A tweeter on the other hand will have no problem being damped by just its own film stiffness.

Look, I don’t think you’re wrong about your RLC calculations, as others have pointed out it IS possible to calculate a tiny but measurable filtering effect due to cable reactivity. However, I think the problem is in understanding the application and relevance.
Like I said, the reactance of the cable ( inductance) will react with the speaker reactance( speaker is NOT pure resistance) and can form a complex circuit that cause phase shift at higher frequency. This is like moving the tweeter back and fore from the listen distance. You should know how sensitive the hearing to the speaker distance.

People want to think DF is for bass only, but that's wrong, low damping factor can cause the signal to lose flatness at the speaker end even though it is flat at output of the amp. I don't look at just controlling the speaker, I look at it as voltage divider of complex impedance that change the gain and phase at the speaker input due to the divider effect between the source ( output impedance of the amp plus cable reactance) to the load ( reactance of the speakers with crossover inside the cabinet)

For reactive element inside the speakers, you can even form a low Q tank circuit. Draw out the circuit of the speakers, you can see it's far from being resistive.

BTW, don't think of the speaker in term of "speaker with a moving coil and magnet. The amp is actually driving the crossover, the crossover drives the speakers inside the cabinet. The crossover is the trouble maker. Each has it's LC tank circuit, they have their resonance peak. The better the speaker, the better the components used in the crossover and the lower the loss the crossover network. What does that means.........Lower loss meaning Q is higher, Q is higher meaning the peak and the valley of the impedance is a lot sharper. This change of impedance intereact with the cable inductance and further affect the gain and phase.

Speaker cable is very different animal from those RCA preamp cables, for preamp, the input using are resistive and in 20,000ohm range, all the inductance and all become a non issue. But speaker impedance is in 4 to 8 ohm. Some hard to drive speakers can have impedance dip down to 2ohm!!! That's where the loss of the cable really matter.

You sound like you know basic RLC calculation. Try model the speaker ( 3 way) and 3 RLC tank circuits at different frequency, then add the cable inductance and see the voltage divider effect and look at the gain and phase at the speaker input end.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 05-21-2020 at 09:09 PM.
alan0354 is offline  
post #56 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 09:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CharlesJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,974
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 895 Post(s)
Liked: 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
BUT amp gave DF for amp under perfect condition with 8ohm RESISTOR load.



Yes, if you measure DF at the speaker end, that's the true DF, that's what it really matters. That's what I have been trying to say for a long time here. The better the SS amp, mostly the higher the DF PARTICULAR at high frequency. For these good amps, the speaker cables become very important as a bad cable destroy the DF at the speaker end.


This is more than just different attenuation at different frequencies, there is a phase shift involve from the inductance of the cable and the impedance of the speaker. Both are reactive.
Well, I will just stick with his knowledge and explanation.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...E/1QE_BNqyNRoJ
CharlesJ is offline  
post #57 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 09:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alan0354's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2097 Post(s)
Liked: 556
Let me open another big can of worms. People here always talk about looking at the gain flatness of the amp and the speaker response flatness to judge. I can tell you this is total hot air!!!


Why?


1) Amp flatness measurement is by using a resistive load like 8ohm, it is going to be 8ohm across the complete audio frequency. It's a piece of cake to pass this test, anyone have half a brain can design an amp to have flat response for audio band. It's when it drives a reactive load that can cause phase change and impedance change at different frequency that really test the amp. You put a speaker load to test the amp, the graph is going to be very different, I would like to see how flat the curve is. This is where high damping factor of the amp comes into play. If the output impedance of the amp is 0.008ohm(DF=1000) at all audio frequency, then no matter the speaker load change from 10ohm to even 2ohm, the frequency response will be a lot flatter.........assume the speaker cable is perfect.

2) Speaker response flatness. This is another one that totally depends on what is driving it. To really plot an accurate graph, you have to have the amp with very high damping factor like 1000 through out the audio frequencies, connect with a perfect cable. Then you can see the true frequency response. Like I said, the better the speaker, the better the crossover network and the sharper the impedance change ( this is the nature of better inductors and capacitors in the crossover). So the harder it is to get a flat frequency response. this is just natural.

That's why it's almost a waste of time to read those graphs UNLESS they specify what is the driving source, what is the connection for speakers. What is the load for the amp, does that represent a real speaker that have resonance, reactance and all. Until you can specify all these, all the graphs are just hot air for people to make others to either feel good or fell bad.


This can be used as marketing to make a lousy amp looks very good on paper, making the good speakers look to have awful frequency response on graph and call it snake oil. You have to know the context.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 05-21-2020 at 09:26 PM.
alan0354 is offline  
post #58 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 09:28 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alan0354's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2097 Post(s)
Liked: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
Well, I will just stick with his knowledge and explanation.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...E/1QE_BNqyNRoJ
Well, you are a scientist, you have to always think for yourself, what make sense and what doesn't. All I have been talking is a simple voltage divider effect. It's not that complicate. Just plug in the numbers and look at the flatness of the divider and the phase shift of the divider. That's why I said this is high school physics using complex number. ( they do study study complex numbers.....I hope. I learn it in like grade 9 in Hong Kong!!!). Hope they don't waste time on PCs in highschools instead!!!

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 05-21-2020 at 09:31 PM.
alan0354 is offline  
post #59 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 10:28 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
Lots of engineeerment went into my designs. I gots numbers to prove it. You can hear the engineeration in the high frequencies. AND I also have equations. The best sounding equations that's ever been equated. With terms even. And let me just say 'phase' right now because it seems like a good place to throw it in. High frequency resonating phasoration . You wouldn't understand....I've been doing this for years.

This makes perfect sense! Thanks for explaining it in plain english.
warnerwh1 is offline  
post #60 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 06:58 AM
Advanced Member
 
Williams2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 883
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 485 Post(s)
Liked: 276
Some frogs sound much better than others.
Especially the ones that have high strand pure copper regular cables attached to their microphones.
They sound less bright and grainy that way.

Last edited by Williams2; 05-22-2020 at 07:06 AM.
Williams2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread 2-Channel Audio

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off