Tune your own speaker cables? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
Lots of engineeerment went into my designs. I gots numbers to prove it. You can hear the engineeration in the high frequencies. AND I also have equations. The best sounding equations that's ever been equated. With terms even. And let me just say 'phase' right now because it seems like a good place to throw it in. High frequency resonating phasoration . You wouldn't understand....I've been doing this for years.

haha that’s really funny.

i even read that with a pee wee herman voice and it was hillarious.


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post #62 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Like I said, the reactance of the cable ( inductance) will react with the speaker reactance( speaker is NOT pure resistance) and can form a complex circuit that cause phase shift at higher frequency.
In a typical situation, when listening to an inexpensive speaker wire with an inexpensive AVR amplifier (kept below clipping), which load would be most likely to cause changes to the sound you could hear?

A. An 8-ohm nominal impedance speaker
B. A 4-ohm nominal impedance speaker
C. A 4-ohm non-inductive resistor

I think I know what your answer will be, but I want to be sure. I know you could answer along the lines of, "Well, it depends on the specific speaker used" but the question is just speaking in general terms using common, typical devices. Thanks.

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post #63 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
In a typical situation, when listening to an inexpensive speaker wire with an inexpensive AVR amplifier (kept below clipping), which load would be most likely to cause changes to the sound you could hear?

A. An 8-ohm nominal impedance speaker
B. A 4-ohm nominal impedance speaker
C. A 4-ohm non-inductive resistor

I think I know what your answer will be, but I want to be sure. I know you could answer along the lines of, "Well, it depends on the specific speaker used" but the question is just speaking in general terms using common, typical devices. Thanks.
More likely (B) the 4 ohm speaker. The lower the impedance of the speaker, the more it affect the voltage divider ratio.

When you say, inexpensive AVR, this likely to have only one or two pairs of output transistors, speaker cables might not be important anymore, no point of even talking about low inductance.

In case (C) resistor doesn't make sound!!! So there is no sound quality to affect. If you look at the frequency response graph, it's still going to be quite flat, just slightly roll off at high frequency. Only in reactive load like the speakers with crossover that can make the graph ugly.

It is NOT the speakers ( woofer, mid and tweeter) that cause hardship, it's the crossover network inside the speaker that causing the trouble. The impedance profile of the actual speakers is actually quite mild, no big peaks or valley. The crossover that consist of LC circuit ( we call them tune circuit) that create the peak and valley of the impedance profile. The better the quality of the inductor and capacitor, the sharper the profile.

I think the phase change can be even more damaging to the sound, phase change on the mid and high frequencies can be noticeable, just like if you more the mid or tweeter speaker back and fore from the listening distance. Any of the LRC circuit can cause a lot of phase change at the peak.

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post #64 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
In case (C) resistor doesn't make sound!!!
Good point. I guess I meant which load alters the signal the most significantly in a manner that a person could actually hear, even though you are right to point out that resistors don't make sound, but by my read your answer is still "B. 4-ohm nominal impedance speaker" even if we were to pretend that we could somehow "hear" the sound change the 4-ohm non-inductive resistor load caused.

New topic. When you want to hear differences in speaker wires and amplifiers (kept below clipping) as easily as possible, do use your best, most revealing speakers? Or is the better test to use your most difficult to drive speakers even if they may not be the best sounding?
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post #65 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 10:36 AM
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Has anyone tried the speaker wires mentioned in the opening post?



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post #66 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
And let me just say 'phase' right now because it seems like a good place to throw it in. High frequency resonating phasoration . You wouldn't understand....I've been doing this for years.
You must have ESP!


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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I think the phase change can be even more damaging to the sound, phase change on the mid and high frequencies can be noticeable, just like if you more the mid or tweeter speaker back and fore from the listening distance. Any of the LRC circuit can cause a lot of phase change at the peak.



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post #67 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 10:40 AM
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So, I was having "a think" last night and you know, there's this green handbag my wife has...oh my, it's the best shade of green. In fact, I've never seen such a shade of green before! Not even on a traffic light...and I whine about certain shades of green awaiting cars to move from lights regularly. Let me assure you, I'm intimately familiar with green!

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post #68 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I think the phase change can be even more damaging to the sound, phase change on the mid and high frequencies can be noticeable, just like if you more the mid or tweeter speaker back and fore from the listening distance. Any of the LRC circuit can cause a lot of phase change at the peak.
Am I remembering correctly from my training that the Alto Utopia and Nova Utopia use the same crossover?
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post #69 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I just use your number of 0.015mH or 0.000015H and calculate the reactance ( impedance) at 10KHz.

ZL = 2 x /pi x freq x L = 6.28 x 10,000Hz x 0.000015H = 0.9734ohm.



This is very significant, say if speaker is 8ohm at 10KHz, damping factor is 8 divided by 0.9734 = [email protected]. You lose control of the speaker. At 1KHz, ZL= 0.09734 and damping factor is 82. If you have a good amp that damping factor is 500 at 10KHz, you wasted the quality of the amp. All the good that the amp has is destroyed by the cable.


The straight calculation of damping factor does not even give the whole picture. The phase shift caused by the reactance of the cable change the phase of the higher frequencies, this is like moving the tweeter around to a different location, different distance. You know how the sound change when you move the speakers?


Like I said, whether the cable is important depends on how good your amp is. For high end amps that has 4 or more pairs of output transistors, cable is important as the amp's damping factor likely to be over 300 to 20KHz. But if the amp is cheap and has only one or two pairs of output transistors, cable is not important as the amp is not much better. The quality of the system depends on the weakest link of the system. If you amp has damping factor over 1000 like my amps to over 20KHz, speaker cable is EVERYTHING.

I'm pretty sure I remember someone testing speaker cable with a null tester, which resulted in the conclusion of the wire being acoustically transparent. But I don't really care about it anyways, my soon-to-be amps have a damping factor of 2666 on the speakers I'll be using and the cable length is 50cm. I'm sure that will be fine, even by your standards.


Btw, changing your speaker position alters the sound because the phase relations of multiple sound sources (reflections from a single speaker) will change. I couldn't see a phase shift in Xsim and you claim that there is one, but that comparison doesn't make sense. If you change the phase of the source, all reflections will change their phase in a similar fashion.


Something I'd like to see would be a controlled test where one can adjust the damping factor to their liking. And then find out what kind of change becomes audible.

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post #70 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
whether the cable is important depends on how good your amp is. For high end amps that has 4 or more pairs of output transistors, cable is important as the amp's damping factor likely to be over 300 to 20KHz. But if the amp is cheap and has only one or two pairs of output transistors, cable is not important as the amp is not much better. The quality of the system depends on the weakest link of the system. If you amp has damping factor over 1000 like my amps to over 20KHz, speaker cable is EVERYTHING.
Actually you have it backwards. If theoretically an amp audibly degrades the sound unless you are very careful to only use very specific speaker wires it is a bad amplifier. [One reason why I'll never buy a tube amp, although some are adequate.]

Good amplifiers are indifferent to what adequate gauge speaker wire is used as long as the wire has normal, typical, R, L, and C values such as is found in (a single run of) plain-Jane Monoprice 18 AWG speaker wire (costing 20 cents per foot) which is audibly perfect.

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post #71 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 01:18 PM
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OK, let me present in a much more simplified form about gain flatness, amp DF using JUST NON INDUCTIVE RESISTORS only. This will eliminate the complication of all the reactance, complex numbers.


I called speaker impedance as RL and amp output impedance + cable resistance as RS. I set RS=1ohm constant. I set output of the ideal amp VOUT=1V in all the following cases. Fig.2 show the circuit where the amp drive the speaker through the RS. A voltage divider forms between RS and RL and the formula is shown in the attachments.



In example (A) in the first drawing RL= 8ohm constant throughout the audio frequency. In Fig.3, you can see the VIN=0.8888V flat across the frequency. So you can see, even if RS is so high at 1ohm, as long as RL is non inductive resistor, the voltage VIN at the input of the speaker is flat.


In example (B) in the second drawing, RS is still constant at 1ohm. BUT I make RL dip to 4ohm at two points and peak to 16ohm at two points. Now we observe how this affect the voltage at the input of the speaker VIN. VIN calculation is exactly the same, just change the RL only.
I show the calculations when

i) RL=8ohm, VIN=0.888V as before.

ii) RL=4ohm and VIN =0.8V.

iii) RL=16ohm and VIN=0.94V.


Look at Fig.4. I just plot the gain flatness by plotting VIN to the speaker. You can see how much the gain change because of RL changing.


You can see, the math is very simple, people must have learn resistor voltage divider calculation in junior high. It's just that simple to see how the speaker impedance has everything to do with the gain flatness measured with real amp and real speaker cable that has impedance as RS.




I hate to use Damping Factor, but people relate better with DF than if I said output impedance of the amp. But they pretty much talking about the same thing.


As you can see, output resistance is just as important at high frequency as in low frequency in gain flatness. In fact, it's much easier to get higher DF at low frequency than in high frequency. Cheap amps use NEGATIVE FEEDBACK to raise the DF( or lower the output impedance). BUT the N feedback runs out of steam at higher frequency, meaning DF goes down at higher frequency. High end amps usually use 4 or more pairs of output transistors, Krell use 8+ pairs of output transistors. The DF does NOT depend on Negative Feedback. Output impedance remain very low because of that many output transistor pairs. Running higher bias current decrease output impedance of the amp also. That's the reason I judge the quality of the amp literally by looking at how big the heatsink, how many pairs of output transistors........How heavy the amp is.


These are all scientific, I hope when I remove the reactance part and just use resistor divider, this will make it easy for people to follow to see the effect of speaker impedance on the measurement. It is just this simple, nothing esoteric.
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post #72 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Actually you have it backwards. If theoretically an amp audibly degrades the sound unless you are very careful to only use very specific speaker wires it is a bad amplifier. [One reason why I'll never buy a tube amp, although some are adequate.]

Good amplifiers are indifferent to what adequate gauge speaker wire is used as long as the wire has normal R, L, and C values such as is found in Monoprice 18 AWG speaker wire (costing 20 cents per foot) which is audibly perfect.
That's exactly the reason I use multi wire cable. Forget resistance, if you look up inductance of different gauge wires, inductance of 12 gauge wire is not a few times lower than a 18gauge wire. This means using a single big wire in not effective in reducing inductance. But if you use 6 pair of 18gauge wire, you literally lower the inductance by like 5 times compare to a 12 gauge wire.


Go look up the inductance of wires of different gauges, you'll see my point. Multi wires is the key. Material of the wire, the kind of metal used is almost irrelevant as I showed the resistance is so much lower than reactance from the wire inductance even as low as 1KHz. See post #26 in this thread.

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post #73 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
That's exactly the reason I use multi wire cable.
What's your explanation for why your own speaker's manufacturer does not recommend this practice? [Not to be confused with using multi strand speaker wire, of course].
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post #74 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 01:37 PM
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Actually you have it backwards. If theoretically an amp audibly degrades the sound unless you are very careful to only use very specific speaker wires it is a bad amplifier. [One reason why I'll never buy a tube amp, although some are adequate.]

Good amplifiers are indifferent to what adequate gauge speaker wire is used as long as the wire has normal R, L, and C values such as is found in Monoprice 18 AWG speaker wire (costing 20 cents per foot) which is audibly perfect.
Do you think dude is confused about whether his amplifier is a current or voltage source?
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post #75 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
What's your explanation for why your own speaker's manufacturer does not recommend this practice? [Not to be confused with using multi strand speaker wire, of course].
I don't know, what make you think they think about this? Don't give them too much credit. I don't design speakers, I cannot speak for them.

I know more about amplifiers, I don't necessary have respect towards famous amp designers. As big as Nelson Pass, he doesn't even know how to make his amp stable with capacitance load on his amps. His PA-7 gone wild with only 1500pF across the output. Don't discount that a lot of so called big name designers just started out in the garage monkeying with stuffs and somehow make it big. They have no idea how things work and just copy someone's design and change a little and call it their own. Nelson Pass even published a paper in using multi wires cable and talk about lower inductance AND he talked about his amplifiers are NOT stable with those wires. They even came out with a band-aid.

It is easy to make the amp stable with capacitive load IF one knows electronics. Like I said, I made all my amps to be stable with 20,000pF connect right on the output connector of the amplifier. Like I said, electronic knowledge and theory have gone a Quantum leap in the last 30 year, those old timers just got left behind. I am sure now that I retired, I am obsoleted already.

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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Do you think dude is confused about whether his amplifier is a current or voltage source?
I thought you don't want to talk anymore, if you want to talk, why don't you dig into the calculation? Or you just talk you know about this but actually can't even follow simple grade 8 math calculation?



Get off being sarcastic, show what you have or shut up.

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I'm still waiting for the all-in-one speaker wire that eliminates both the amp and speakers. Nothing could possibly produce a purer sound than just the wire without amp and speaker distortion dragging it down.
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post #78 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
What's your explanation for why your own speaker's manufacturer does not recommend this practice? [Not to be confused with using multi strand speaker wire, of course].
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I don't know, what make you think they think about this?
Because if consumers were not wiring their speakers as best possible and it (according to you) "reduces the sound quality" it would hurt their sales.
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Because if consumers were not wiring their speakers as best possible and it (according to you) "reduces the sound quality" it would hurt their sales.
Average consumers buy mid or low fi amps and speakers, it's not even important to talk about speaker cables. Only if you have difficult high end speakers and high end power amps with high DF at high frequency, then the cable is important.


Like you asked, if the amp is just a normal AVR how does cable matter, I said don't worry about the cable. The output impedance of the AVR is going to be bad, a little bit more bad doesn't hurt anymore.


Just use my calculation shown, make the output impedance of the amp to 0.01ohm, all of a sudden the impedance of the speaker dominate the RS.

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post #81 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Average consumers buy mid or low fi amps and speakers, it's not even important to talk about speaker cables. Only if you have difficult high end speakers and high end power amps with high DF at high frequency, then the cable is important
I see. They don't discuss it, even though they know about it, because they are hoping that people buying their speakers will only use low quality gear so they won't notice the sound degradation from not using "multi-wire" that you notice.
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post #82 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I see. They don't discuss it, even though they know about it, because they are hoping that people buying their speakers will only use low quality gear so they won't notice the sound degradation from not using "multi-wire" that you notice.

You read the second part, What make you think the speaker designers know? Don't give them too much credit.

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Oh, it is "secret/new knowledge" unknown to Focal speaker designers, and that's why they don't discuss it. Got it.

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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Oh, it is "secret knowledge" unknown to speaker designers, and that's why they don't discuss it.
I know, your goal is to invalidate my calculation, You really stop and look at my calculations? It is very simple, this time, it's only like grade 8 physics and math. If you are closed minded, don't bother to keep talking because unless you actually dig in, there's no point of talking.


Yes, I told you Nelson Pass obviously doesn't know how to tame amps, he admitted that his amps are not stable under capacitive load. What make you think speaker designers are any better?

Own designed power amps, own designed preamps, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #85 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I know, your goal is to invalidate my calculation, You really stop and look at my calculations?
If I'm not mistaken you seem to think that if one thing measures (or is calculated) to have a different value from another thing that it proves that it matters to the human ear. This is incorrect.

I'm not interested in spending any more time discussing this with you since you don't get this fundamentally critical concept. Bye.

Last edited by m. zillch; 05-22-2020 at 02:18 PM.
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post #86 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Oh, it is "secret/new knowledge" unknown to Focal speaker designers, and that's why they don't discuss it. Got it.
You speak about Focal, I own two pairs of high end Focals. I opened the Spectral 913.1 up and actually modified and experimented. The crossover still using ferrite core inductors, that's cheap. It is well known that people should use air core inductors. They use 16 gauge wires inside. I double up the wires and the sound change a lot. It because too forward, I ended up removing the extra wires. I don't know speakers, I am sure if I know how to design speakers, I can optimize it.


You really give them so much credit? I am busy staying in my lane of designing amps, I am sure if I spend the time learning speaker design, I can optimize a lot better. When I have time, I will.


The Alto is not as forward as the Spectral, I might one day try doubling up the wire inside and see.

Own designed power amps, own designed preamps, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #87 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If I'm not mistaken you seem to think that if one thing measures (or is calculated) to have a different value from another thing that it proves that it matters to the human ear. This is incorrect.

I'm not interested in spending any more time discussing this with you since you don't get this fundamental concept. Bye.
I can hear the difference that you don't accept. Of cause it is observation, then put theory behind.


Yes, it's better if you don't respond because you are set in mind that none of this is relevant, there's no point of talking. I already make it a point not to respond to your post, you started this, not me. It's better we stay out of each others way.

Own designed power amps, own designed preamps, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #88 of 88 Old 05-22-2020, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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