Tune your own speaker cables? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 03:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Tune your own speaker cables?

so here is the Wire on Wire Experience 880 interconnects that use ‘Adaptive Asymmetric Geometry’ to help improve your stereo sound
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/wir...peaker-cables/

interesting, but I think I will pass on this one

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post #2 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 03:21 AM
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... The result is the hand-braided, open weave cable with ‘REDpurl’, or ‘Adaptive Asymmetric Geometry’ tuneable spacers ...
I admire the creativity and wish I were clever enough to entice "audiophiles" to pay me "£240 per metre pair" for speaker wire.
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post #3 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 03:34 AM
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These are probably the cables you have to elevate off the floor too!!!!!!!!!
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post #4 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
I admire the creativity and wish I were clever enough to entice "audiophiles" to pay me "£240 per metre pair" for speaker wire.
Actually the cables are free with the purchase of the "spacers".
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post #5 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Actually the cables are free with the purchase of the "spacers".
Happy to fleece...errr, to entice 'em either way.

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post #6 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 12:09 PM
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Are those silly wire spacers something new? Wonder what fantasy started them?

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post #7 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 12:11 PM
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Im saving for pure gold 12 gauge cables myself.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
Are those silly wire spacers something new? Wonder what fantasy started them?
Money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
Im saving for pure gold 12 gauge cables myself.
Silver is a better electrical conductor. Spend your money on solid 12 AWG silver cables.
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post #9 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 12:38 PM
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The idea is exactly what I have been talking about here and people just laugh. I designed it in Pure engineering point of view. I did a lot of experiment and build a lot of cables to test. It is all about the series INDUCTANCE, NOT the resistance where people here kept talking about without the scientific knowledge. I even posted the formula here, it's only HIGH SCHOOL PHYSICS, not any mystical high math or physics.

The multi cable is to LOWER the inductance. People here do NOT understand even at upper audio frequencies, the reactance ( exactly like resistance) of the cable due to inductance can be in range of 0.2ohm, this make 0.01ohm from cable resistance irrelebant. What make it worst is this reactance cause PHASE SHIFT with frequency. This is like you move the tweeter away to a different spot.

Multiple wire cables drastically reduce inductance of the cable, but increase capacitance of the cable and can make a lot of badly designed amps unstable and give strange sound quality. Then they blame on the cable. Don't think big name amps are ok, My Nakamichi PA-7 designed by the famous Nelson Pass is NOT stable even with my multi wire cable that is already only 1/2 the capacitance of the Kimber Kable. Obviously he doesn't know how to tame amplifiers.

Back to this thread. Different weaving pattern gives different capacitance and produce different sound ( as long as the power amp is stable). I experimented with different weaving patterns. The first picture show two cables of much tighter coupling. I use 6 pairs of 16 gauge speaker cables. I first twisted them into 3 separate pairs, the one labeled (1) braided like the little girl ponytail. (2) Just twisting the 3 pairs together.

The second picture is the lowest capacitance, just 6 pairs twisted together.

They are sounded different, the braided one is the most in your face, the sound stage is right in front and it's too close for my taste. I think only good if you run 12ft or longer. I still like the one in the second picture.

I think the one they posted has the lowest capacitance, it's a step better than 12 gauge Monster and more amps can tolerate the capacitance.

Yes, Speaker cable is just as important as the amp. You can have a very good amp with very high damping factor at high frequency, but the inductance of the cable will lower the damping factor down to less than 20 at higher frequencies.

Like I said, I experimented a lot, cables used is the cheapest of the cheap ebay special copper clad cable........BUT of cause the cable uses the high tech material only found in one place in China!!!!




Ha!!! They can publish a paper on this? I should have published mine a few years ago. It's no different from the idea of Kimber Kable. Obviously they know the theory.


AND it's funny that most people don't understand the first thing about science, joke about this as if they know. Please, stop and learn before talking. It's only High School physics. I showed the formula a few times, it's NOT that hard to understand.
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post #10 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 12:58 PM
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This is the link
Read post# 2 of thishttps://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...closed-23.html


Read post # 672 of this https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...closed-23.html


It's highschool math.

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post #11 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 01:23 PM
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You should try using "spacers".
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post #12 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
You should try using "spacers".

No, Spacer keep more distance between cables and less effective. Key is to have an amp that can be stable with higher capacitance cables and it will improve the sound more. Their cable only use 4 pairs, I use 6 pairs. Kimber Kable use even more.


Kimber is more tightly wound, their cables are like 6000pF, good luck finding an amp that is stable. My cables are between 2500pF to 3500pF or so, much easier on the amps. Their cable with spacers must be about 1000pF to 1500pF max.

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post #13 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
No, Spacer keep more distance between cables and less effective. Key is to have an amp that can be stable with higher capacitance cables and it will improve the sound more. Their cable only use 4 pairs, I use 6 pairs. Kimber Kable use even more.
But that is not what this is about.



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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
But that is not what this is about.
About keeping the damping factor high at high frequency. You read anything I wrote and link? it's high school math and physics. Just complex numbers.

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post #15 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 01:34 PM
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My cable is much easier to build, idea is the same as the article. $27 a pair and one hour of work. Note it only work if you have good amps with like 4 pairs of output transistors. If the amp has one or two pairs, don't do it. Cables are from ebay express the special Chinese made copper clad special material!!!! The connectors from Amazon express.

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post #16 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 01:35 PM
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Ugh -- here comes the high school physics police. How about this document for a bit of "wire design" from an application (Ethernet) where it is actually appropriate to discuss.
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
About keeping the damping factor high at high frequency. You read anything I wrote and link? it's high school math and physics. Just complex numbers.

Do you have anything to provide with math or physics that prove or disprove the integrity of the product in discussion?
This is devolving again with DIY projects.



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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
so here is the Wire on Wire Experience 880 interconnects that use ‘Adaptive Asymmetric Geometry’ to help improve your stereo sound
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/wir...peaker-cables/

interesting, but I think I will pass on this one
You could not possibly be trying to boost posts with this thread... (wink, wink).
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I had a short look into wire inductance influence using Xsim.
10m of 12AWG parallel speaker cable has an inductance of 0.015mH and a resistance of 0.05Ohm.


Series wiring an inductor with the same properties to a B&C 16R compression driver made no difference.
Series wiring an inductor with the same properties to a Dayton Audio 4R woofer made for a difference of a fraction of a db above 1khz.
Series wiring an inductor with the same properties to a center speaker using above components and a passive crossover made for a difference of a fraction of a db.
Series wiring an inductor with the same properties to the mentioned center speaker using the lowest inductance inductor for the woofer crossover I could find (0.1mH) made for a difference of about 1.5db above 1khz (loss). I don't know if a crossover like that would be practical/used in actual designs.
When using passive crossovers you have much bigger problems than wire inductance imo.

@alan03 45 could you give an example on the impact of wire inductance you observed, ideally with measurement data?
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wonder if rew could be used to tune a cable? what measurements would you use?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
wonder if rew could be used to tune a cable? what measurements would you use?

Don't talk crazy. Speaker cables aren't about measurable differences, it all about the golden ear!!!!!

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it's crazy to offer to 'tune' speaker cables: changing capacitance of a twisted cable like this would not have a significant effect: and if it did, it would be over a narrow range of frequencies
My experience is transmission lines up to 40 Ghz, where flatness (VSWR/characteristic impedance) is critical: for speaker cables going up to 20 khz, not so much

besides I would fear my dog would step on the cable spacers and ruin the whole thing

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Ugh -- here comes the high school physics police. How about this document for a bit of "wire design" from an application (Ethernet) where it is actually appropriate to discuss.
You gone through the calculation?

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post #24 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
You gone through the calculation?
I'm not going to circle this wagon with you again. You can understand the math and fail to comprehend where it's applicable all you'd like. Honestly, you're a waste of my time.
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They forgot to mention the procedure of CABLE TENSIONING once the cables are rested on the cable elevators.

That would affect the fundamental tuning frequency of the cable sections AND the control over the cross-section area of each of the 54 consecutive loops.
You don't want to skip that step for sure...

Guitar tuner would suffice provided no other methods are available for the cable tuning.

Yep.

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post #26 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
I had a short look into wire inductance influence using Xsim.
10m of 12AWG parallel speaker cable has an inductance of 0.015mH and a resistance of 0.05Ohm.


Series wiring an inductor with the same properties to a B&C 16R compression driver made no difference.
Series wiring an inductor with the same properties to a Dayton Audio 4R woofer made for a difference of a fraction of a db above 1khz.
Series wiring an inductor with the same properties to a center speaker using above components and a passive crossover made for a difference of a fraction of a db.
Series wiring an inductor with the same properties to the mentioned center speaker using the lowest inductance inductor for the woofer crossover I could find (0.1mH) made for a difference of about 1.5db above 1khz (loss). I don't know if a crossover like that would be practical/used in actual designs.
When using passive crossovers you have much bigger problems than wire inductance imo.

@alan03 45 could you give an example on the impact of wire inductance you observed, ideally with measurement data?
I just use your number of 0.015mH or 0.000015H and calculate the reactance ( impedance) at 10KHz.

ZL = 2 x /pi x freq x L = 6.28 x 10,000Hz x 0.000015H = 0.9734ohm.



This is very significant, say if speaker is 8ohm at 10KHz, damping factor is 8 divided by 0.9734 = [email protected]. You lose control of the speaker. At 1KHz, ZL= 0.09734 and damping factor is 82. If you have a good amp that damping factor is 500 at 10KHz, you wasted the quality of the amp. All the good that the amp has is destroyed by the cable.


The straight calculation of damping factor does not even give the whole picture. The phase shift caused by the reactance of the cable change the phase of the higher frequencies, this is like moving the tweeter around to a different location, different distance. You know how the sound change when you move the speakers?


Like I said, whether the cable is important depends on how good your amp is. For high end amps that has 4 or more pairs of output transistors, cable is important as the amp's damping factor likely to be over 300 to 20KHz. But if the amp is cheap and has only one or two pairs of output transistors, cable is not important as the amp is not much better. The quality of the system depends on the weakest link of the system. If you amp has damping factor over 1000 like my amps to over 20KHz, speaker cable is EVERYTHING.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.

Last edited by alan0354; 05-21-2020 at 02:48 PM.
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post #27 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I'm not going to circle this wagon with you again. You can understand the math and fail to comprehend where it's applicable all you'd like. Honestly, you're a waste of my time.

You don't know the math that's why you don't comprehend what I said. Don't pretend and don't border to comment.

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Last edited by alan0354; 05-21-2020 at 02:47 PM.
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post #28 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
You don't know the math that's why you don't comprehend what I said. Don't pretend and don't border to comment.
okay, whatever you say. Dampening factor is audible, wire is audible, your wire is the best...we know. All from a tool that won't test without their eyes. Peace!

edit: oh, and don't let me forget about how awesome your amps must be.
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
okay, whatever you say. Dampening factor is audible, wire is audible, your wire is the best...we know. All from a tool that won't test without their eyes. Peace!
I thought it's a waste of time for you to respond!!! Yes, if your system is good enough. What system do you have? So we can put it in perspective.

Own designed power amp, own designed preamp, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #30 of 88 Old 05-21-2020, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Yes, if your system is good enough. What system do you have? So we can put it in perspective.
My system... his system, your system. I did the math.

Frog at the bottom.
Sour grapes.
Jewelry that become obsolete.
No subwoofers.
Speakers are most important (if they're the best).
Placement of speakers.
And NEVER...... test with only one speaker!



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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