what do you think of this speaker wire - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 58 Old 05-28-2020, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post
wait a minute boys both of you are 'liking' each other posts yet when I read them you're not in agreement .......... 'Z' states that speaker wire is to transmit the signal perfectly without alteration yet PacMan you clearly talk of 'sound improvement', sounds like an alteration to me !!

LOL, just pokin' a bit of fun on a rainy afternoon !

LOL. Well, there's one point on the curve where we agree, and that happens to be the only one that exits.
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post #32 of 58 Old 05-28-2020, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
Multi strand wire from monoprice is the smart choice for speakers. These cables provide the exact same amount of sound improvement as the most expensive cable out there. No manufacturer has ever demonstrated better performance when it comes to sound quality or sound improvement.
Yup.

Multi strand is better than solid core mostly because it is more flexible, easily bended, and less likely to snap yet quite strong.

Since using solid core is less mainstream and more awkward to use there was a movement pushed by Stereophile writers such as Sam Tellig supporting claims that it "sounds better" but it was just a figment of his (and others) imagination.

Remember, in audiophilia whatever is more awkward and inconvenient is automatically "better":

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post #33 of 58 Old 05-28-2020, 02:12 PM
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The only difference between high priced speaker wire, home made/designed speaker wire and speaker wire from Home Depot is the individual that believes they really want to hear an audible improvement.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #34 of 58 Old 05-28-2020, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
Knitting is for hats and sweaters. Multi strand wire from monoprice is the smart choice for speakers. These cables provide the exact same amount of sound improvement as the most expensive cable out there. No manufacturer has ever demonstrated better performance when it comes to sound quality or sound improvement.
This "knitting" thing prompts a question in my head -- care for a thought experiment? I think you can help!

Let's take 100 tiny un-insulated strands of wire, lay them out each 1" apart, then connect them together only at each end (*) -- we'll call that "wire A".

Now, let's "knit" all those strands tightly together -- we'll call that "wire B".

How should we expect the two "wires" to measure, electrically?

Now, again keeping in mind that each little strand is un-insulated, so it's not like we're creating a "twisted pair" wire here, if we get more exotic in the "knitting scheme" used by "wire B", can we effect electrical change in the wire?

Finally, let's take "wire A" and bunch it into 4 25-strand braids, thinly insulate each, braid those, then twist the ends of each of the 4 strands together -- now what? Now we're beginning to create (for lack of a better term) a "transformer-like-thing", right? I would certainly expect a change in the wire measurements now, no?

Now, of course, even if every theoretical wire I've proposed does measure 100% differently, if the amplifier you're using attempts to be a "pure-voltage-source" (and it has the current reserves to drive your "wire+xover+driver" load), then it really "shouldn't matter" to your ears. I mean, minus the potential HF losses, for which can be compensated, and easily, if they become audible. Of course, a lot of old ears probably won't hear them anyway...so, there's that.

That said, all bets are off when you have an amplifier that isn't trying to be a voltage-source. More, "pure voltage-source" is theoretical, yes? So, certainly there are practical limitations. However, there are also perceptual limits and, fortunately, much bigger distortions in the loudspeakers and rooms themselves that swamp anything "exposed" by the amplifier limitations (unless, of course, it is just a terribly bad amplifier!).

Which is to say, there is indeed much more than the "simplicity" put forth by some posters. One tiny set of equations does not the full system of equations make! Once one has the "full system" to consider (amp->speaker->room->ears->brain) many of the differences that "can be computed" dilute to "inaudible" due to factors in the full system. Which is to say, they become "lost in the noise". Primary among that "noise" is your bloody ears have known and tested limitations due to both their anatomy and the signal processor (brain) behind them! Indeed, some of these limitations (sighted bias by the brain) account for much of what one "hears" when they "listen to wires" in "sighted conditions"! One does not have to agree, but all current science does. More, there doesn't seem to be updated peer-reviewed research to suggest otherwise w.r.t. the audibility of wires -- at least, that is, wires that aren't designed to be equalizers; some (that should be avoided, IMO) are!

One may ask why no one funds additional research; especially if there's so much money to be had by proving (simple) wires make an audible difference. Alas, there's no reason, there's enough money to be had from the gullible and no more money than marketing (often simply by attending shows to which their target audience flocks) need be spent. All the real consensus in the scientific community has been reached and that was...what...half-a-century ago (and more, lol).... Yet, here we are, what feels like eons later still debating this rubbish when the real science has long surpassed it. Better, in the process, we have built amplifiers and speakers whose performance is better than ever (if transparency is the goal) because real scientists have progressed the SotA by measuring and focusing on what does matter!

Oh, and one more thing, just because I know it'll rub some better than others -- the real enemies of transparency, IMO? The room, movement, and heat (i.e., power). The room contributes most of the sound. Movement, e.g., of a cone, creates distortion (how much does a drum skin move when struck? (**)). Heat, while it just sucks in general for electrical devices, in speakers causes power compression. So, I suggest the "compression drivers suck" and "large bass drivers are slow" people re-read this paragraph until it sinks in! While you do that, I'll admit that there are many ways to skin a cat (e.g., compression drivers "may suck on some horns" and even then can compromise in other areas (e.g., head-in-vice), so...certainly one can skin it differently (and possibly, that skinning is just a different horn or throat size...or speaker topology that doesn't use them)).


(*) I suppose it imposes a practical issue getting all this disjoint wire bunched to a singular point connection just at "the end", but...let's "pretend".

(**) yes, I know a drum skin and speaker cone are different -- tension but one biggy. Accept it as the best analogy my feeble mind could muster -- can my point remain?
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post #35 of 58 Old 05-29-2020, 02:32 AM
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When I talked about "knitted" wire like Kimber Kable, they are all INSULTATE individual wire. If it is uninsulated wire, it's just identical to one thick wire with absolutely no difference electrically. It's just more flexible. The idea of Kimber Kable type of insulated knitted cable is lower inductance. With good knitting, using 10 of the 20 gauge wires, you can reduce the inductance even to 1/10 of a single big cable.

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post #36 of 58 Old 05-29-2020, 04:46 AM
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"With good knitting, using 10 of the 20 gauge wires, you can reduce the inductance even to 1/10 of a single big cable."


You are talking in hyperbolic terms about single wire self inductance, not 2 conductor cable inductance. Self inductance is a completely insignificant factor in comparison, and bringing it up shows a lack of appreciation and understanding of the electrical factors that actually can make a difference in an amp/speaker circuit. On any cable type or make we would even consider using for speakers, single wire self inductance is so tiny it is essentially zero impact. Its more like adding a grain of sand to beach, a teardrop in an Olympic swimming pool, etc. You can multiply it by 1000 or divide it by 1000 and it still is insignificant when it comes to audible impact in an amp/speaker circuit.



Saying something technical in a manner completely out of context of how it can effect speaker output, and with no indication of scale of impact, is utterly useless. These statements I read always exclude any explanation of exactly what the impact on sound output is. That is telling in itself.

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post #37 of 58 Old 05-29-2020, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post
more importantly, what color is your C3, coupe or vert, SB or BB ?

I guess by now you've learned that most posters around here have little regard for expensive wire discussion, to which I basically agree. It's sometimes more fun to get them started on the difference or lack there of in the way amps can sound ..............
C2 SB coupe for me!

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post #38 of 58 Old 05-29-2020, 06:46 AM
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C2 SB coupe for me!
nice, C2 here as well, '67 BB ......
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post #39 of 58 Old 05-31-2020, 05:03 PM
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If it always makes your "head shake", then why ask here? You should expect most opinions to differ from yours.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

What i expect is respect the same as anyone else on here deserves...end of discussion (close thread if you like admin)
There are too many engineers here, myself included who have studied signal propagation in conductors, understands the physics of current flow etc. We dont believe in the crap published in advertising glossies by cable manufacturers. All you get there is misapropriation of electrical terms, pseudo science to dupe those into believing in magic that defies phsyics. Ted Denney is one such purveyor of bullsh?t.
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For that money you can get 10' of 750 MCM, which will be infinitely better electrically. Just imagine what your damping factor will be compared to that laughable 12AWG wire!
And please, I wanna see someone insert 750MCM wire into speaker terminals, I only have some 3/0 here atm. Tag me!
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post #41 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 07:30 AM
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This

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-vi...y-audio-cables
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post #42 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanPackMan View Post
"With good knitting, using 10 of the 20 gauge wires, you can reduce the inductance even to 1/10 of a single big cable."


You are talking in hyperbolic terms about single wire self inductance, not 2 conductor cable inductance. Self inductance is a completely insignificant factor in comparison, and bringing it up shows a lack of appreciation and understanding of the electrical factors that actually can make a difference in an amp/speaker circuit. On any cable type or make we would even consider using for speakers, single wire self inductance is so tiny it is essentially zero impact. Its more like adding a grain of sand to beach, a teardrop in an Olympic swimming pool, etc. You can multiply it by 1000 or divide it by 1000 and it still is insignificant when it comes to audible impact in an amp/speaker circuit.



Saying something technical in a manner completely out of context of how it can effect speaker output, and with no indication of scale of impact, is utterly useless. These statements I read always exclude any explanation of exactly what the impact on sound output is. That is telling in itself.
You obviously have no idea what is engineering. You obviously don't understand the explanation I provided that is high school physics and you just closed your mind. I already present the calculation in post 26 here
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...er-cables.html


Obviously you cannot comprehend that the inductance of a wire is 0.94ohm at 10KHz and you pretty much lost control of the speaker. But it's hard to lead the blind to the water if the blind refuse to move.

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post #43 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
You obviously have no idea what is engineering. You obviously don't understand the explanation I provided that is high school physics and you just closed your mind. I already present the calculation in post 26 here
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...er-cables.html


Obviously you cannot comprehend that the inductance of a wire is 0.94ohm at 10KHz and you pretty much lost control of the speaker. But it's hard to lead the blind to the water if the blind refuse to move.

showing calculations is not the same as demonstrating results and affect on actual audio output. Your 'calculations' show us nothing of use in that regard.


And, inductance in measure in henries, not ohms. "lose control' is not a unit or meaningful term at all. The entire circuit, not just one isolated piece out of the circuit, dictates results.

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post #44 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by DrJayDub View Post
From that letter from Paul McGowan. He (McGowan) disgusts me with this drivel:

"And, for the record, we only do blind listening tests on cables. We have one person who switches cables and listeners who judge them. Only the switching person knows what’s what. Double blind as you know it doesn’t work, a subject I’d be happy to elaborate on at some other time. But, blind measurements are a must.

As to your kind offer of public debate, I think I’ll have to pass but thank you for the opportunity. It’d be akin to a debate between political right and left wingers: both so entrenched in what they know to be true that nothing of value would result. Life’s too short for that.

I will suggest that we would dearly love to better understand how we can use the measurement tools we have to get to the bottom of why using transfer functions and differential measurements don’t help us relate what we hear to what we measure. We know those differences exist. We know measurements don’t currently show us what those differences are. We also know how much easier our design process would be should we figure out what is happening when we make those changes. In the meantime, we’re continuing to listen (taste) the end results of our design efforts.

Be well.

Paul McGowan"

Either he himself doesn't understand what the difference is between double blind* and single blind or he believes he can deceive people by making things up. I'm not sure which is the case here.



*Double blind simply means not only is the test subject (listener) not allowed to know the identity of the cable being listened to, the test administrator who switches the cables also doesn't know, so their body language, grimaces, and their verbal tone can't inadvertently relay the identities to the test subject(s) at a subliminal level either. For example, were they to say: "OK, now what do you think of the sound of this cable?" the accidental, subtle emphasis of the word "this" can subliminally influence the listener, theoretically, so the test administrators also need to not know the IDs of the DUTs [devices under test] to be sure this isn't an issue. This is an exceedingly easy to understand principle I would assume even young children could grasp, but apparently not Paul.
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post #45 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 10:02 AM
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You guys always go down the wire rabbit hole when the real issue is the connections. It's all about leakage and cheap connections. If they leak it's a bear to clean up all the 0's and 1's that pile up on the floor.
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post #46 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 10:10 AM
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You guys always go down the wire rabbit hole when the real issue is the connections. It's all about leakage and cheap connections. If they leak it's a bear to clean up all the 0's and 1's that pile up on the floor.

I do wonder why they don't include the audible differences in solder joints.
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post #47 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 10:17 AM
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You guys always go down the wire rabbit hole when the real issue is the connections. It's all about leakage and cheap connections. If they leak it's a bear to clean up all the 0's and 1's that pile up on the floor.
HA! Plus they are hard to pick up when they wiggle around because of all the jitter.
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post #48 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 11:52 AM
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Myself, I prefer speaker wire made in the USA, 2 conductor, twisted pair, bare copper, 99% oxygen free, shielded, jacket, UL listed.

I also prefer not using end plugs of any type. I do check every so often for screw tightness. I'm not to concerned about oxidation occurring at the terminals, with my exposed small set-up.

I am not that concerned with wire resistance, due the specific wire I am using, 8ohm speakers, and longest run is 20 feet both sides. I believe I am getting the best quality sound possible from my bookshelf speakers.

Its like HDMI cables. Is one 4k cable better than another of equal quality, in picture and sound??? It is all in what you prefer to spend?

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post #49 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
let's talk science of testing the best of the best speakers with one speaker,
To properly measure the frequency response of a speaker (be it with test instruments or the ear), the correct number of speakers to radiate sound into the room is one: otherwise if you foolishly use two or more you get nasty comb filtering which has nothing to do with the speaker itself but rather the spacing of the two which determines when and where the sound waves are constructive vs. destructive to each other:

One speaker (the Revel Salon):

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post #50 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 12:41 PM
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your ABX test.
Mine? I did not invent nor own in any sense the ABX test protocol. Forum member Arny Krueger [RIP] however did, with others, and if I'm not mistaken he physically built the very first one.
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post #51 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 01:53 PM
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Myself, I prefer speaker wire made in the USA, 2 conductor, twisted pair, bare copper, 99% oxygen free, shielded, jacket, UL listed.
interesting, I don't ever recall seeing speaker cable 'UL Listed' ?
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post #52 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post
interesting, I don't ever recall seeing speaker cable 'UL Listed' ?

Here's an example.


I think it has to to with heat and fire safety. Like how thick the insulation is and how likely it will burst into flames with high current or a mishap of some kind.

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Not sure whether this article was posted before.
A very good read.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
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post #54 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Everyone has different opinion and express their opinion. . . . As long as they don't challenge me, everyone can say their piece.
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Here's an example.


I think it has to to with heat and fire safety.
interesting, guess I'm blind, I didn't see the UL listing on the packaging ?
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Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post
interesting, guess I'm blind, I didn't see the UL listing on the packaging ?
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post #57 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
gotcha, thought I would have see the 'UL' on the packaging ........
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post #58 of 58 Old 06-01-2020, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post
gotcha, thought I would have see the 'UL' on the packaging ........
I'd think so too.

I bet if you look closely at the non-detachable power cord to your AVR it will say UL too. Mine is at least.
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