Please HELP! 2.1 vs 3.1 , A/V vs Stereo , Klipsch vs SVS vs.... - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 38 Old 06-03-2020, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Please HELP! 2.1 vs 3.1 , A/V vs Stereo , Klipsch vs SVS vs....

Hello everyone,
new member here and i would really appreciate help in choosing the right speakers and receiver combo.

I was googling/reading non-stop, daily, for the last month or so...and if i would write here everything/all the options that went thru my head, I would probably take a whole 1st page. But im sure we all went thru this, so i'll try to keep it as short as possible.

Location : Living and dining room - 3000cft (13.5x25.5x8.3 - both shorter sides are are almost entire windows, speakers would be placed along the longer side) that opens up to a kitchen....probably another 800-1000cft (minus lockers, appliances and kitchen island - probably half the space).
Floor : Tile all over (no carpet at all)
Not much of a furniture either. Long shelf for TV, sectional with a coffee table, dining table, kitchen island, kitchen shelf/lockers.

Budget: $2000 MAX, including receiver.


Ok, so... first i thought about doing surround, but due to the room setup/configuration, can’t do 5 nor 7 speaker setup. So i thought about nice front stage. Googled a little bit…found RP-820/8000F with 500c/600c might be a good idea. Then I thought that since it will be 75% music and 25% TV…8 inches woofers would not be enough. I exclusively listen to (Psy)Trance music. We are talking about hard/fat bass, 145bpm, so 12inches sub is a minimum.So I moved to the other combination….RP600M+600C, OR , SVS prime bookshelf+ prime center with SVS SB or PB2000. Well, then…- and this is one of the things I need help with - ….i learned that AV receiver will never be as good for music as stereo receiver. So i thought…I don’t want to sacrifice 75% music because of 25% stupid shows my wife watches. She’ll be ok with a par of nice bookshelf speakers.But, then again…if im not getting center speaker…should I get RP8000F + sub. Ok, so im going crazy again.

Now, I have a bunch of questions depending which route I go. So in order to decide, let me ask a main question

-How big of a sacrifice would I make , music quality wise, if I go with a center channel (front stage – 3.1) and AV receiver vs 2.1 and stereo receiver? (both receivers in a range up to $600)

If I can achieve almost identical music quality, It would be nice to have front stage. But if in 3.1 configuration music wont sound as it should, I would stay with 2 channels.

-Regardless if I decide to go with 3.1 or 2.1 , should I go with Klipsch 600m(+600c) or SVS prime bookshelf (+ prime center).


-If I go 2 channel mode , would SVS 2channel receiver pair good with SVS bookshelf speakers? Would Denon DRA-800H be good for Klipsch 600m?

-If I go 3.1 would something like Yamaha RX-A780 be good for music

-Should I consider something like Cerwin Vega XLS-215 for 2 channel.

-For sub…I would prefer SB over PB, but for such a big space, i assume PB 2000 would be better.Am I right?Or should I stick with SB2000. Trust me, I would like to have 2x SB16, but they are almost as much as my entire budget.


I am NOT brand loyal. I mentioned SVS and Klipsch because for up to $500 for pair of bookshelf speakers, I think they are decent brand with a decent quality? Am I wrong? Somebody mentioned somewhere Ascend Acoustic…are they any good?

And one more thing…I don’t want to come off as a jerk in my first post, especially since Im asking for help, but I would appreciate if you guys let me know in your comments are the things you are stating a FACT or just a personal opinion.I do appreciate personal opinion as well but in order to get a true picture/understanding, I need to know which is which.

And the last thing...i went to Best Buy magnolia...they didnt have neither Klipsch nor SVS. I did listen some other quality bookshelf speakers but room configuration was awful and when i told the guy im not impressed with any of the speakers he said that it does sound bad in that room and not to judge speakers by what i heard because once you take them home, it would sound so much better. So i really dont have time to go in another 10 stores hopping they will have good setup that will give me an idea what to expect from a certain speakers.And i don't have time to order few brands, play with all of them, wait till they break in, and return what i dont like. Not to sound like an ass, i just dont have time for that. So i will have to rely what i hear from other (knowledgeable) people.



Thank you all in advance.
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post #2 of 38 Old 06-03-2020, 03:01 PM
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You may get better answers to some of your questions in other specific forums
The Speaker forum can provide options for front L/R speakers. The Speaker forum and/or Audio Theory forum may help in discussing acoustics and materials. Speakers has way more activity.
This forum may be the best place to find options for best stereo sound in receivers/amplifiers.
The subwoofer forum will help with selection, and opinions on sealed vs ported, You'll need to describe your room volume and adjoining spaces, as you already have.
It's not necessarily true that you have to sacrifice stereo sound if going with an AVR. While it's not prioritized, some AVRs do really well. The trick is finding them.
The Denon AVR-X3600H was tested and found to perform very well.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.12676/
There are several Denon and Marantz models that share design, and others that are marketed to perform better. The problem may be their price (roughly $1K) will chew up your budget.
If that price is a problem, and you can find a stereo setup that you like, you might consider a separate inexpensive (used?) AVR that has stereo preouts for main L/R to drive your 3.1 setup, while keeping your stereo setup distinct, using the same L/R speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LS460 View Post
Location : Living and dining room - 3000cft (13.5x25.5x8.3 - both shorter sides are are almost entire windows, speakers would be placed along the longer side) that opens up to a kitchen....probably another 800-1000cft (minus lockers, appliances and kitchen island - probably half the space).
Floor : Tile all over (no carpet at all)
Not much of a furniture either. Long shelf for TV, sectional with a coffee table, dining table, kitchen island, kitchen shelf/lockers.
Budget: $2000 MAX, including receiver.
due to the room setup/configuration, can’t do 5 nor 7 speaker setup.
since it will be 75% music and 25% TV…8 inches woofers would not be enough. I exclusively listen to (Psy)Trance music. We are talking about hard/fat bass, 145bpm, so 12inches sub is a minimum.
i learned that AV receiver will never be as good for music as stereo receiver. So i thought…I don’t want to sacrifice 75% music because of 25% stupid shows my wife watches. She’ll be ok with a par of nice bookshelf speakers.

Now, I have a bunch of questions depending which route I go. So in order to decide, let me ask a main question
-How big of a sacrifice would I make , music quality wise, if I go with a center channel (front stage – 3.1) and AV receiver vs 2.1 and stereo receiver? (both receivers in a range up to $600)
If I can achieve almost identical music quality, It would be nice to have front stage. But if in 3.1 configuration music wont sound as it should, I would stay with 2 channels.
-Regardless if I decide to go with 3.1 or 2.1 , should I go with Klipsch 600m(+600c) or SVS prime bookshelf (+ prime center).
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post #3 of 38 Old 06-03-2020, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Im new here and by scrolling thru the forum, I thought that "2 channel audio" would be correct place to ask. If mods think some other part of the forum would be more sufficient they are welcome to move it. If not i will try some other forum.


Thank you.
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post #4 of 38 Old 06-04-2020, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS460 View Post
Im new here and by scrolling thru the forum, I thought that "2 channel audio" would be correct place to ask. If mods think some other part of the forum would be more sufficient they are welcome to move it. If not i will try some other forum.


Thank you.
If you go 2 channel you increase your budget for better speakers. If Music is important you'd be better off w/a SVS sealed sub. Better match for music. The Yamaha A-S 501 is an excellent Integrated. Plenty of power w/a smooth analog sound. I would check out Crutchfield if you don't have any local stores around. And probably because of the pandemic they're closed. But for around $800 you can get a nice pair of Wharfedale 11.3 speakers. Should fill the room w/sound. Also the KEF Q550 would be in your budget

Last edited by Class A; 06-04-2020 at 08:09 AM.
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post #5 of 38 Old 06-04-2020, 02:26 PM
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Current thinking is if you're going to use a center channel it should be at least as good as your L and R, if you're on a budget it should probably be the most expensive speaker in your system. The biggest advantage of 3.1 is if you want wide coverage across your whole room, if it's going to be 1 or 2 people near an optimal listening position it won't be as important. Since you say 75% music stereo should be fine. As far as bass goes your room is the most important, buying one giant sub may result in a less flexible system than 2 smaller ones especially in your big space. Your all tile floor is going to be a challenge and restricting your L/R speakers to ones with 8" woofers limits your choices a ton [Cerwin Vega is not a very well regarded manufacturer these days]. I listen to a lot of trance and drum & bass and I have speakers with 6" drivers that I'm happy with since my sub does the heavy lifting. I would say from your description you probably want ported subs over sealed.

Quote:
i learned that AV receiver will never be as good for music as stereo receiver.
This is not a universal truth. In fact I'd almost call it misinformation, it all depends on the system, the budget and your needs. If you're using a sub/subs you'll need a good adjustable crossover which most less expensive 2 channel integrateds/receivers lack entirely. As far as receivers/amps go if you're doing a combined system for music and home theater you should use an AVR, there's a couple stereo ones like the Denon 800H and Onkyo 8270 [which I own] but they're not much of a better value than surround ones just running on 2 channels, they are just the most affordable way to get an AVR that can handle 4 ohm loads.
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post #6 of 38 Old 06-04-2020, 07:17 PM
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I'm not saying that this is the "wrong" forum, but you can get more people looking and answering your different questions if you post in the specific ones, if for no other reason than they get way more traffic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LS460 View Post
Im new here and by scrolling thru the forum, I thought that "2 channel audio" would be correct place to ask.
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post #7 of 38 Old 06-04-2020, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Class A View Post
If you go 2 channel you increase your budget for better speakers. If Music is important you'd be better off w/a SVS sealed sub. Better match for music. The Yamaha A-S 501 is an excellent Integrated. Plenty of power w/a smooth analog sound. I would check out Crutchfield if you don't have any local stores around.

I have JL Audio 2 x 12W6v3 in my car in a sealed box and i would never use ported for a car/small space. But im debating about PB because in a huge room i still might be able to get tight kick with extra power.I could be wrong. Bass sound is very important for me so i might try to get both and see which one works for me better. At least with subs i dont need to listen for weeks to pick one lol.



Speaking of YAmaha A-S501...i compared it to Denon 800H. I do like Yamaha brand, and price is ok, but Denon has much better options:


- Wi-Fi (which is important for me)
- Bunch of HDMIs (Yamaha has none)
- 2 subwoofer outputs ( which might serve me good in a future)
- 20% more power
- I can get it for almost 100 bucks less.


Im sure Yamaha gives a little better sound, but it lacks many things important to me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by qirex View Post
Current thinking is if you're going to use a center channel it should be at least as good as your L and R, if you're on a budget it should probably be the most expensive speaker in your system. The biggest advantage of 3.1 is if you want wide coverage across your whole room, if it's going to be 1 or 2 people near an optimal listening position it won't be as important. Since you say 75% music stereo should be fine.As far as bass goes your room is the most important, buying one giant sub may result in a less flexible system than 2 smaller ones especially in your big space.

Seating area when watching TV is like 7-8ft, so yeah, L and R should handle it fine. Sub will be towards the wall, right at the center and should cover the room nicely. And again, due to the shelf and hall entrance position, even if budget would allow me, i dont have where to put second sub (currently). But im sure one sub and 2 speakers should cover the area nicely.



Ok, so no center speaker for now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by qirex View Post
This is not a universal truth. In fact I'd almost call it misinformation, it all depends on the system, the budget and your needs. If you're using a sub/subs you'll need a good adjustable crossover which most less expensive 2 channel integrateds/receivers lack entirely. As far as receivers/amps go if you're doing a combined system for music and home theater you should use an AVR, there's a couple stereo ones like the Denon 800H and Onkyo 8270 [which I own] but they're not much of a better value than surround ones just running on 2 channels, they are just the most affordable way to get an AVR that can handle 4 ohm loads.



Ok, what AV Receiver would you recommend that would do stereo as good as other stereo receivers mentioned above (Yamaha A-S501, Denon 800H)


Is Marantz NR1200 any good. I see people have mixed feelings about it. I see MARANTZ, i see 2 subs output, i see Wi-Fi, muliti room, HDMI inputs/output...Im just confused about power outout - "75w with 2 channel driven". Does that mean its 75x2 or 75 in total that splits for both channels ( ~35pc)?
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post #8 of 38 Old 06-04-2020, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philpoe View Post
I'm not saying that this is the "wrong" forum, but you can get more people looking and answering your different questions if you post in the specific ones, if for no other reason than they get way more traffic.



Ok, i can "split" my questions into few areas and post in different subforums. I just didnt want to spam the forum and tried to keep everything in one topic so people can have a full picture.


Thank you.
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post #9 of 38 Old 06-04-2020, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS460 View Post
Ok, what AV Receiver would you recommend that would do stereo as good as other stereo receivers mentioned above (Yamaha A-S501, Denon 800H)


Is Marantz NR1200 any good. I see people have mixed feelings about it. I see MARANTZ, i see 2 subs output, i see Wi-Fi, muliti room, HDMI inputs/output...Im just confused about power outout - "75w with 2 channel driven". Does that mean its 75x2 or 75 in total that splits for both channels ( ~35pc)?
As for the Marantz, that is 75W into each channel, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, 8 ohm, 0.08% THD, with both channels driven. Looking at the specs they don’t rate the amp to drive 4 ohm speakers, so keep that in mind if you decide in this one.

As for your receiver list, I would vote for the Denon 800H. Or consider the Onkyo TX-8270.

Also for speakers consider PSB Imagine XB (I have owned several PSB models), Elac UniFi UB5, and Chane A1.5 or possibly a pair of A2.4. I have never heard Chane speakers but they get a lot of good reviews on these forums.

Yup, I got stuff...
LG OLED65C7P, LG 55EG9100
Marantz SR6012, Classe Sigma Amp5, Oppo BDP-203
PSB Synchrony One mains, Synchrony two center and surrounds, 2x SVS SB12-NSD
XBox One X

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post #10 of 38 Old 06-05-2020, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS460 View Post
Ok, what AV Receiver would you recommend that would do stereo as good as other stereo receivers mentioned above (Yamaha A-S501, Denon 800H)

Is Marantz NR1200 any good. I see people have mixed feelings about it. I see MARANTZ, i see 2 subs output, i see Wi-Fi, muliti room, HDMI inputs/output...Im just confused about power outout - "75w with 2 channel driven". Does that mean its 75x2 or 75 in total that splits for both channels ( ~35pc)?
What do you mean by "do stereo as good?" The NR1200 is fine, the Denon 800H has a slightly bigger amp at 100 watts per channel vs. 75 but that's not much in the real world. The network functionality should be identical because they both use HEOS, the main functional difference is that the NR1200 has stereo pre-outs so it could be connected to larger amps in the future. The reason to cross shop it against surround models like the Denon X1600 or Yamaha A780 is you might get better deals on them since there's more of them around.


Ultimately your speakers and sub (and their setup in the room) are going to be the real deciders, the receiver should be the thing you need to think about the least.
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post #11 of 38 Old 06-06-2020, 11:15 PM - Thread Starter
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As for the Marantz, that is 75W into each channel, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, 8 ohm, 0.08% THD, with both channels driven. Looking at the specs they don’t rate the amp to drive 4 ohm speakers, so keep that in mind if you decide in this one.


Elac UniFi UB5

These ELAC doesnt seem to be bad. I'd prefer 6.5 inch woofer over 5 inch one, but these speakers have nice reviews and i would be using sub anyway. The only thing is they are 4omh speakers and i dont know would that cause problem with Denon. Maybe they would go better with MArantz NR1200 since he is rated 100w [email protected]


But again, i also read that 800h and NR1200 are pretty much the same product in a different shell. Dont know to what degree is it true?




Quote:
Originally Posted by qirex View Post
What do you mean by "do stereo as good?"



I meant will the AVR (in that same price range) play stereo (2 channel) mode with the same quality as stereo receiver.


For example, lets say AVR with LCR speakers vs stereo receiver with 2 speakers. Will AVR reproduce music with a same quality/clarity/bass response like stereo receiver. Or will it sound different?
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post #12 of 38 Old 06-07-2020, 12:59 PM
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Whether to choose AV or Stereo has been discussed many times on the forum, with polarizing opinions and no clear resolution. Both are worthy options, but the important thing to remember is -

You can't get what you want until you know what you want.

Evaluate your personal needs, circumstances, priorities, and preferences. They will guide you to the right choice.

My philosophy is -

If you want a Music System, then get a Music System, meaning a Stereo. It will also do Movies well.

If you want a Movie System, then get a Movies System, meaning Surround Sound. It will also play Music well.

But each is purpose driven. They will do their main purpose best, but also do their secondary purpose.

Think if this in the context of Does and Also Does. An AV Receiver DOES Movies, but it ALSO DOES Music. A Stereo Amp DOES Music, but it ALSO DOES Movies.

So, the underlying question is - What do you want to DO? What is your primary purpose? Serve that Purpose, and also does will come along for the ride.

Here is a recent discussion, and a post from me that addresses some of the issues of Stereo vs AV -

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...l#post59767296

AV Receivers, assuming your spend enough, can do a good job, but you have to weigh quantity against quality, and in turned the choice as to be weighed against personal priorities.

In the thread linked above, and in the ensuing discussion, I show the difference between similarly priced AV vs Stereo system.

Also, you imply that you could build an AV System over time; start with 2.1, move to 3.1, and eventually to 5.1/5.2 and beyond. The long term cost will be high, but during the entire process you will always have a very good system, and at each build-up stage the momentary costs will be reasonable.

Also, AV Receivers are PACKED with features that would cost a fortune if bought separately. So, that is a bonus.

However, Stereo can have a pretty rich feature set and come very close to an AV Receiver. Take a look at the Yamaha RN803 Network Receiver. It pretty much has everything a ARV has with the exception of HDMI inputs.

Check out the Yamaha RN-803 Network Stereo Receiver. It has just about every feature you could imagine, and a solid 100w/ch -

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audi...l#product-tabs

Price - $750 which fits nicely with your projected budget. If I recall correctly, that would leave you $1250 for a Speakers.


In AV Receivers, here are some Yamaha in a similar Price Range -

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audi...0_u/index.html

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022RXA...E-RX-A780.html

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audi...0_u/index.html

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022RXA...E-RX-A880.html

You can perhaps find better prices if you shop around.

Think about what your PRIMARY Purpose is, and serve that purpose.

You posted in 2-Channel, that implies you are seriously considering a Stereo. But you also talk about build up from a 2.1 to a full Surround system, and that implies a AV Receiver.

Focus on your Primary Purpose, and serve that purpose.

If you are never going to move beyond Stereo, then get a Stereo like the Yamaha RN803, though there are others to consider.

However, if expanding the system more into a Movie system is your purpose, then get an AV Receiver and build up over time.

Then we get to TIME. If you buy an AV Receiver and build over time, how much time are we talking? If it is 5 years, then probably better to get a Stereo. An AV Receiver will likely be outdated long before 5 years. However, if the entire update will take 2 years or less, then certainly consider an AV Receiver to start with.

Note, also, that in 5 years while your Amp could be out of date, your Speakers will be fine, so in 5 years, just buy a new AV Receiver with all the latest features.

The problem with any decision in Audio is that there are too many options to choose from. But you can narrow that down by really understanding your Primary Objective.

You can't get what you want until you know what you want.

So, focus on what it is you really want to accomplish, Serve that need, and you can't go wrong.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; 06-07-2020 at 01:07 PM.
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post #13 of 38 Old 06-07-2020, 01:47 PM
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Klipsch and SVS are good speakers, especially if you are talking about the Klipsch RP Series. The RP-Series uses a rubberized Horn and that greatly tame the shoutiness characteristic of horns.

I believe we determined that your would have about $1250 for speakers. Where you spend that money is up to you.

A pair of Floorstanding speakers for $1250 would be very nice. However, if you get Front Bookshelf, then you can add either a Sub or a Center. '

For example -

SVS Prime Floorstanding - $500 Each -


https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-tower

SVS Prime Bookshelf - 6.5" - $250 Each -


https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-bookshelf

SVS Prime Center - $350 Each -


https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-center

The Prime Floorstanding and the Prime Center would be $1350 for the set.

A basic SVS Sub would be about $500 -

https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000

https://www.svsound.com/products/pb-1000

So, you could get Prime Floorstanding and a Sub for about $1500.

In Klipsch, I would recommend the Klipsch RP-Series, these probably fit your budget nicely.

https://www.klipsch.com/floor-speakers

Klipsch Reference Premier Floorstanding 2x6.5" - $574 Each -

https://www.klipsch.com/products/rp-...anding-speaker

Klipsch Reference Premier Bookshelf - 1x6.5" - $630/Pair -

https://www.klipsch.com/products/rp-...kshelf-speaker

Klipsch Reference Premier Center - (2x5.25") - $424, (2x6.5") - $574 -


https://www.klipsch.com/products/rp-...hannel-speaker

https://www.klipsch.com/products/rp-...hannel-speaker

Klipsch Subwoofers -

https://www.klipsch.com/subwoofers


Klipsch Subs are probably fine, though I think I would lean toward SVS for Subs. Still Klipsch have many in the roughly $500 price range -

Depending on your priorities, a good combo might be the Klipsch RP-600 6.5" bookshelf with a Klipsch Sub - ($650 + ~$500 = $1150/set) -

https://www.klipsch.com/products/rp-...kshelf-speaker

https://www.klipsch.com/products/r-100sw-subwoofer

https://www.klipsch.com/products/spl-100-subwoofer

As a very broad and general rule, for a Stereo, speakers are about Twice the price of the Amp. Assuming a $2,000 budget, that breaks down like this -

$667 = Amp/Receiver
$1333 = Speakers (more or less a pair)


Of course there is a lot of flexibility when actually purchasing, but this puts the budget in perspective.

Precisely what combination of Speaker you start with is entirely up to you. I have simply presented some sample options.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; 06-07-2020 at 01:52 PM.
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post #14 of 38 Old 06-07-2020, 02:05 PM
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Heya,

There's several schools of thought, but no wrong way to go. Depends on what is most critical to you.

Stereo Amp vs Receiver - The receiver simplifies a lot of blending of items, such as the sub, or several channel beyond 2 channel such as getting a center channel. If your main goal is music and general show watching, then I would just go with a good but simple stereo setup. If your main goal is more movies with discrete audio channels, then a 3 channel setup with a center can be a nicer way to get a little more spice mixed into 2 channel listening where there's good left & right stereo imaging with a center for dialog in movies. But if you're not really spending a ton of time on movies, then this really won't get nearly as much use so it's putting your costs higher just to have the option for when you do movies. Nothing wrong with a decent receiver, even a $250 one will do this job with room to spare no problem. Mean while a good 2 channel stereo amp can be $100~200 as well. Just depends on your goals. One is not universally better than the other for this application.

Speakers - So you can look at bookshelf speakers and a center and add a sub to handle the low end of bass. The bookshelf speakers will be a little less efficient due to small volume cabinets and so they will not dig deep and they will be less efficient than something bigger. I would argue that while the idea of getting better quality speakers by going with bookshelves sounds like a good idea, but it's not such an upgrade if the room isn't treated and if they're not able to be placed in an ideal position. This sounds like this could matter in your living situation being that these will just be in a room connected to other rooms all sharing air volume and walls. Another approach is to go with a full tower floor standing speaker that is full range with no sub. These can be more efficient speakers and dig very deep and be sensitive to get loud fast. Decent full range tower speakers can get down to 25~30hz in an open room. A cheap sub will only be doing 20~30hz compared to a decent floor standing speaker, so it really comes down to preference. A sub is not a must, in my opinion, especially for most music (exception: electronic music). Movies make good use of a sub, usually, but again if your floor standing full range speakers can handle it for the most part, then it's one less thing. Personal preference can weigh in heavy here. Personally I would take a stereo amp and two good floor standing full range speakers over an AVR + bookshelves + entry sub for music or general listening. I would be swayed over to AVR + Bookshelves + Center + Sub if it were a dedicated "movie" setup only, personally.

I realized you mentioned you are listening to trance that is very hard and fast, and you mentioned a 12" minimum driver, but.... why? Unless your room is treated, this could result in literally anything frankly, especially if placement is an issue with a big sub cabinet in a small space in connected rooms like this. What frequency range is so critical that you feel you need a 12" sub capble of doing 145bpm at.... what frequency? That requires a sub that is far more designed towards music than movies with better recovery, decay and speed in general, not sure if your budget will allow for such a sub based on your descriptions, and even then, I wonder if it's so critical unless you can truly treat the room and find ideal placement for it in the first place. So unless you're talking about 20hz tones on the regular, a good pair of floor standing full range speakers could do the 25~30hz range and up and do it pretty well (unless your goal is 110db+ at 25hz all day).

Also, it matters how you plan to connect all this as an interface to your source material. For example, is this going to all come from an online wifi connection streaming through some GUI? If so, what do you use primarily? What kinds of connections are essential? You mentioned WiFi is important, but is that to stream from a phone or is it to connect to a broadband internet connection to stream or something else? Connectivity matters, so getting good but simple devices (like stereo amps) can have different options for connection versus something like an AVR with digital input and wifi built in, etc.

Very best,

Last edited by MalVeauX; 06-07-2020 at 02:10 PM.
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post #15 of 38 Old 06-07-2020, 02:42 PM
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"...I exclusively listen to (Psy)Trance music. We are talking about hard/fat bass, 145bpm,..."
If that is the type of music you listen to, you very likely want serious Subs, but equally Bookshelf Front would probably be enough.

Keep in mind that we are all SLAVES to our BUDGETS.

If you have Subs, then you most certainly need Bass Management, which implies management for both Front and Sub. That is most common in AV Receivers, but there are some Stereo Amps that have it.

Again, I refer you to the Yamaha RN803 Network Stereo Receiver which has 100w/ch and Full Bass Management plus Room EQ, and has the bonus of Network Streaming of Audio either from local storage or from Internet Streaming services ($750).

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022RN8...ha-R-N803.html

That leaves you with about $1250 for speakers. You might get the large Klipsch RP-8000 (2x8", $690 Each) for vaguely in that price range -

https://www.klipsch.com/products/rp-...anding-speaker

They would have very good bass, but not Subwoofer Bass and probably not Trance Bass.

So, you will have to scale down somewhere. One Subwoofer is going to be roughly $500. That's not the best but certainly good enough. The best Subs are going to be in the serious 4-Digit range.

https://www.svsound.com/products/pb-3000

So, you do the best you can with what you have ... budget wise.

Don't get an AV system just to play music, unless the feature packed amps simply can't be passed up. But as mentioned, the Yamaha RN803 is a pretty feature packed Stereo Receiver.

The Klipsch RP-600 are about $630/pair which would leave you roughly $600 for a Subwoofer and that happens to be roughly what a Subwoofer costs.

Again ... slaves to our budget.

The Klipsch Rp-8000 (2x8") are about $1380/pair. I would be more inclined to choose these or the RP-6000 (2x6.5". $1150/pr) if I were using an amp that did not have bass management.

But with an amp that has Bass Management, Bookshelf with a Sub should work well, especially if you get the larger 6.5" bookshelf. Odd side note, a single 6.5" is roughly TWICE AS BIG as a typical 5.25" driver. So, the difference between 5" and 6" is significant. It can be either SVS or Klipsch. I would suspect that the SVS might be a little warmer, and the Klipsch might be a little brighter though not harshly so. Which works best for you only you can determine.

So, you have to work out how you want to stage your system. You could raise your budget and dump a considerable amount of money int the RP-8000, then add Sub or Subs later.

In today's world, though more so for Home Theater, most are recommending Two smaller Subs over one large Sub for more uniform distribution in the room. But even smaller Subs, are still expensive. Though you can certainly start with One, and add a second Sub later.

For myself, I think I would prefer Two 10" Subs over One 12" Sub, but then, I'm not into Trance Music.

Also, while Trance and other Club music have LOTS OF BASS, it is not necessarily that deep or low. Given your budget, you do not need sub-20hz Subwoofers. Likely any thing below 30hz will be fine (low to mid 20hz range). Now Double your budget for Subs, and yes, perhaps Sub-20hz is possible.

Add another $1000 to your budget and you can build an absolute Demolition system. Add another $1000 beyond that, and you can have a system that will create Seismic Tremors. But this add $1000 more, never ends. At some point you have to draw the line and say - This is my Budget - then live with it.

If you want to hear it - Floorstanding.

If you want to feel it - Subwoofers.


But then ... that's just my opinion.

Steve/bluewizard
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Also, you imply that you could build an AV System over time; start with 2.1, move to 3.1, and eventually to 5.1/5.2 and beyond. The long term cost will be high, but during the entire process you will always have a very good system, and at each build-up stage the momentary costs will be reasonable.
No no, as i stated in my first post, due to the room configuration i cant build anything above front stage (at least not in a near future). So it will be 2 channel, or 3 channel at most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
However, Stereo can have a pretty rich feature set and come very close to an AV Receiver. Take a look at the Yamaha RN803 Network Receiver. It pretty much has everything a ARV has with the exception of HDMI inputs.

In AV Receivers, here are some Yamaha in a similar Price Range -

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audi...0_u/index.html

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022RXA...E-RX-A780.html

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audi...0_u/index.html

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022RXA...E-RX-A880.html

I checked RN803 and i mentioned RX780 in my previous post. But if we talk Yamaha, how about V685. It has HDMIs, 2 sub output and it cost 30% less then the other two. Now, if im going to be getting a better sound quality, i dont mind spending extra 200 bucks, but IS IT worth the price difference? I could spend these extra 200 bucks on speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
You posted in 2-Channel, that implies you are seriously considering a Stereo. But you also talk about build up from a 2.1 to a full Surround system, and that implies a AV Receiver.
Never said about building full surround. I mentioned only adding central channel to maybe have a fuller sound and have better clarity while watching TV, but not at the expense of stereo/music quality reduction. As i said, if i can go with decent AVR and LCR that will reproduce music like decent stereo receiver, i'll go with AVR. Why would i pay 500+ bucks for 2 channel if i can have same quality from AVR with addition to central channel for when its needed.

Like, is there any difference between Denon S750 and S800 in sound quality other then more power per channel?



Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Klipsch and SVS are good speakers, especially if you are talking about the Klipsch RP Series. The RP-Series uses a rubberized Horn and that greatly tame the shoutiness characteristic of horns.

I believe we determined that your would have about $1250 for speakers. Where you spend that money is up to you.

A pair of Floorstanding speakers for $1250 would be very nice. However, if you get Front Bookshelf, then you can add either a Sub or a Center. '
The way i thought about splitting my budget is ~$1300 for receiver + L(C)R and $700 for SVS PB2000 (they go for 650-700 in their outlet store).

Originally i wanted Klipsch RP-600m or SVS Prime bookshelf with their dedicated central channels (RP-600 or Prime center channel) if it turns out that decent AVR will play music just as good.

Klipsch are horn speakers that many said are on a bright side and thats why i mentioned that its a tile all over with not too much furniture, and asked if that would be the problem?
SVS has interesting trade-in program that allows me to turn in speakers i bought thru them, and add extra money if i want to upgrade. So i thought that after a year, if i have some extra cash, maybe i could trade it, add money and try ultra bookshelf or even Prime Pinnacle towers. And with time i can get an idea and understand what works for me better.

I will say that ELAC UniFi UB5 that the other member mentioned above looks very interesting. But the reviews are VERY divided regarding love and hate for them as well as inefficiency and being power hungry. They are also 4omh speakers so i dont know would it make any issues to these receivers rated at 8 omhs. I dont want overheating/protection mode to be an issue. But i would be open to even try their central channel (UC5).

Last month Klipsch 600m were everywhere for $470 + $350 for 600c. SVS 3 channels are about the same price. ELACs are few bucks cheaper 400 for UB5 + 270 for UC5. I do prefer 6.5 woofer over 5inch but again, im planning to get a decent sub so, bookshelf woofer might not make a lot of difference. Someone correct me if im wrong .
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Originally Posted by MalVeauX View Post
A sub is not a must, in my opinion, especially for most music (exception: electronic music).


I realized you mentioned you are listening to trance that is very hard and fast, and you mentioned a 12" minimum driver, but.... why? Unless your room is treated, this could result in literally anything frankly, especially if placement is an issue with a big sub cabinet in a small space in connected rooms like this. What frequency range is so critical that you feel you need a 12" sub capble of doing 145bpm at.... what frequency? That requires a sub that is far more designed towards music than movies with better recovery, decay and speed in general, not sure if your budget will allow for such a sub based on your descriptions, and even then, I wonder if it's so critical unless you can truly treat the room and find ideal placement for it in the first place. So unless you're talking about 20hz tones on the regular, a good pair of floor standing full range speakers could do the 25~30hz range and up and do it pretty well (unless your goal is 110db+ at 25hz all day).

Im into PsyTrance for the last 20+ years and trust me, powerful (sub)woofer is A MUST. No, it doesnt have to go super low, but 8 inches tower woofers wont be able to keep up at high(er) volume. By the time woofers reach their max, tweeters will be at 35% . I need sub to take that heavy load and move some air , club-like effect (as much as budget allows). So even if i get towers, i would still need big sub.I mean if i have a budget i would go straight to SB-16, trust me.


Ok, so here is another question. Will 1 PB2000 hit harder and deeper then pair of RP-8000F towers


Need it for something like this:






Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX View Post
Also, it matters how you plan to connect all this as an interface to your source material. For example, is this going to all come from an online wifi connection streaming through some GUI? If so, what do you use primarily? What kinds of connections are essential? You mentioned WiFi is important, but is that to stream from a phone or is it to connect to a broadband internet connection to stream or something else? Connectivity matters, so getting good but simple devices (like stereo amps) can have different options for connection versus something like an AVR with digital input and wifi built in, etc.

Very best,



Will be connected to LG OLED TV and also with couple different computer in the house as well as phones and tabs (hence the need for HDMI and Wi-Fi).


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
If that is the type of music you listen to, you very likely want serious Subs, but equally Bookshelf Front would probably be enough.

Keep in mind that we are all SLAVES to our BUDGETS.

If you have Subs, then you most certainly need Bass Management, which implies management for both Front and Sub. That is most common in AV Receivers, but there are some Stereo Amps that have it.



Ok, so...if i go for a stereo option, i would go with Denon S800 over RN803 due to more features (HDMIs , 2 sub outputs...etc).Unless Yamaha sounds a lot better


Now, back to AVRs, some reviews say that Denon S750 is great for music as well, while costs the same as s800 and i can have center channel. Yamaha V685 is also there with price and features.


All 3 amp costs about the same. 1 is stereo receiver with 100wpc, other 2 are AVRs with 75-80wpc. Will the other 2 AVRs sound just as good as Denon S800. I would take little less power but with option for center channel.
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post #18 of 38 Old 06-07-2020, 09:24 PM
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No no, as i stated in my first post, due to the room configuration i cant build anything above front stage (at least not in a near future). So it will be 2 channel, or 3 channel at most.
I never said that you said that, what I said was you have a full range of options, and if you desire over time, you can expand from 2.0 to as far as you want to go - 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, 11.1, that's completely up to you, but regardless of what you choose, those options exist.


Quote:
I checked RN803 and i mentioned RX780 in my previous post. But if we talk Yamaha, how about V685. It has HDMIs, 2 sub output and it cost 30% less then the other two. Now, if im going to be getting a better sound quality, i dont mind spending extra 200 bucks, but IS IT worth the price difference? I could spend these extra 200 bucks on speakers.
Again, we are slaves to our budget and our circumstances. When you look at an amp, you have to consider the remainder of the Budget for the speaker ...unless... you want to raise the budget. So, if you buy a $900 Receiver, then you have $1100 for Speakers. If you spend $690 on a Receiver, then you have $1310 for speakers. And equally, if you buy the $750 Stereo Network Receiver, you have about $1250 for speakers.

The point is, you have to very much take a System approach. Every decision you make effects the other components. Nothing exists in isolation.


Quote:
Never said about building full surround. I mentioned only adding central channel to maybe have a fuller sound and have better clarity while watching TV...
In your budget range, I suspect Yamaha and Denon are going to give you best value, it is just a matter of picking the Receiver, and examining the Specs and the Features, then making a decision.

Quote:
The way i thought about splitting my budget is ~$1300 for receiver + L(C)R and $700 for SVS PB2000 (they go for 650-700 in their outlet store).

Originally i wanted Klipsch RP-600m or SVS Prime bookshelf with their dedicated central channels (RP-600 or Prime center channel) if it turns out that decent AVR will play music just as good.
Again, you have to examine your specific needs and serve those needs. Myself, based on my preferences and priorities, I would go with a Stereo, probably the Yamaha RN803. But you have to make the best decision for you.

Quote:
Klipsch are horn speakers that many said are on a bright side and thats why i mentioned that its a tile all over with not too much furniture, and asked if that would be the problem?
Check out YouTube Videos on the Klipsch RP-600, they are all pretty positive, and the horn brightness irritation that might be found in some of the older models is gone. So, I would not be afraid of Klipsch

SVS, again check YouTube Demos and Reviews, I suspect are a bit more smooth. That can be good, but not necessarily for everyone.

Your Room is not huge, the ideal situation is to always put the system on the narrow wall so it plays into the longer space. But I admit that that is not always possible. Playing into a somewhat short space, implies smaller speakers. But everyone is different. I've seen kids with huge PA systems in a small bedroom. To each his own. But I suspect you want quality that steps up above simply being loud.

Quote:
I will say that ELAC UniFi UB5 that the other member mentioned above looks very interesting....
There are dozens of speaker to consider - Wharfedale, Monitor Audio, Bowers-Wilkins, Martin Logan, Paradigm, and countless more - but what you need to do is narrow down the field not expand it.

The ELAC are very highly rated, and are appealing if the price works for you. But, they don't seem to have the models I would personally prefer.

I think you said, the space that the speaker are playing into is about 13ft to 14ft. Remember, on one wall the system will take up space, and on the other wall, seating will take up space. So 13ft/14ft is functionally closer to 10ft. I have a roughly 16ft x 16ft listening space, and my nearest speaker is about 10ft to 11ft away.

Again, that tells me that smaller (large bookshelf) with Sub(s) is probably the better choice. Keep in mind you absolutely can not push the speaker back against the wall, that will destroy the sound quality. In my experience, Floorstanding need 12" to 16" behind the speaker. But... bookshelf need around 8" to perhaps 12" to sound good. So, in that small space, placement is also a consideration.

In my case, I have my equipment stand a bit forward of the wall (~8"), and I align the front of my speakers with the Front of the Equipment Stand, and that gives me in the range of 14" to 16" for 2x8" Floorstanding Speakers.

Using a Subwoofer with Bass Management might allow you to move your speakers back a bit more, as the very low bass will be diverted to the Sub.

As far as the Center Speaker, SVS has a 3-way Center though not cheap at $350, but 3-way are the preferred type to prevent Lobing.

Again, and finally, focus on what you really want to accomplish, and then buy equipment to serve that need. Adjust your choices based on your personal priorities.

The thread I linked to previously, is a thread where people were discussing using 2-Channel Stereo system for both Movies and Music, which is exactly what I do, so I'm biased in that direction.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...nnel-only.html

That thread is 13 pages long now, and might give you insight into the possibilities.

I don't think you can go wrong either way, it is just a matter of making sure the system you buy best serves your priorities.

Steve/bluewizard

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post #19 of 38 Old 06-07-2020, 10:05 PM
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.... I need sub to take that heavy load and move some air , club-like effect (as much as budget allows). So even if i get towers, i would still need big sub.I mean if i have a budget i would go straight to SB-16, trust me.
I'm getting a sense of Budget Creep, that is you keep looking at more and more expensive items. You need to set a budget RANGE and stick with it.

The SVS SB-16 are in the $2000 range on their own, I think that is a bit above your stated budget.

Even the SB-2000 and the PB-2000 are in the $800 to $900 range. That's a bit steep.

At $500 each, the SB-1000 is a 13" Sealed Cabinet, with modestly deep bass. From memory about 25hz. The PB-1000 is a Ported Box that is larger cabinet with a 10" Sub-Driver, and the specs indicate it will solidly hit about 20hz.

The 1000-Series are what is realistic within your budget range. The RP-600 are about $630/pr combined with a $500 Sub, brings the total up to $1130 which is pretty much your total speaker budget. Keep in mind there will likely be Shipping and Misc expenses like wire and cable.

The SVS Prime Bookshelf are about $500/pair and another $500 for a Sub, and if you are so inclined another $350 for the Center, for a total of $1350/set.

The Klipsch are very high efficiency, meaning lots of sound from modest power. The SVS Bookshelf are average efficiency. They should still work fine with the Amps you are considering.


Quote:
Ok, so here is another question. Will 1 PB2000 hit harder and deeper then pair of RP-8000F towers
Yes a Sub will have more impact than a full range speaker. If I were going to Floorstanding in that room, I don't think I would consider anything bigger than the RP-6000 (2x6.5") with a Sub. I would prefer the largest Floorstanding I could find, but not in a bright 13ft space. Those speakers would be about $1150/pair plus another $500 for a Sub, so $1650/set.

Note the SVS Prime Towers have 2x6.5" each at $1000/pr. So with a Sub, that would be about $1500.


Quote:
Will be connected to LG OLED TV and also with couple different computer in the house as well as phones and tabs (hence the need for HDMI and Wi-Fi).
The way to connect a TV to a Stereo for movie watching would be to use the Optical Digital Audio Out of the TV, and connect that to the Optical In on the DAC of the Amp. That is the way most people do it. No need for HDMI. Though AV Receivers will certainly give you HDMI and that will allow for a Center Channel. But you have to ask, how important is that Center Channel really? Remember that there are a very many of us listening to movies in pure 2.0, 2.1, or 2.2.

There are even people who have full Surround Sound who use what is called a Phantom Center. They tell the AVR that they are running in 4.1, meaning no Center, and the amp re-directs the Center Channel to the Front Left/Right Speakers. I works fine.

If you can live without the Center, then Stereo very much becomes an option. So, how bad to you want and need that Center Channel?. If you absolute want and need it, then the decision is made, get an AVR. However, if you can live without it, then a Stereo does become a very real possibility.

These are all decisions that you will have to work out. We won't tell you what to do, only what can be done. You know you far better than any of us could.

Steve/bluewizard

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Im into PsyTrance for the last 20+ years and trust me, powerful (sub)woofer is A MUST. No, it doesnt have to go super low, but 8 inches tower woofers wont be able to keep up at high(er) volume. By the time woofers reach their max, tweeters will be at 35% . I need sub to take that heavy load and move some air , club-like effect (as much as budget allows). So even if i get towers, i would still need big sub.I mean if i have a budget i would go straight to SB-16, trust me.

All good, have to ask to make sure, it's easy to see too much and want too much (as someone else mentioned, you're already creeping past your budget with things you're looking at).


So, back to your budget and back to what you're saying. You say you absolutely need fast responsive subs to offload any work from your mains. Based on that, with your budget, I think you should look at Speedwoofers:



https://rslspeakers.com/speedwoofer10s/


Affordable, will hit hard and low, very responsive, lots of quality reviews out there (Audioholics) instead of just anecdotal stuff.


Pair that with some decent bookshelves and you're set for the output. Then it's time to look at source.


Since you want connectivity, I think an AVR is pretty much going to be necessary with this budget. You can get a decent AVR in the $250~400 range (check out Accessories4less). This way you can get WiFi/Bluetooth and HDMI without having to buy a bunch of dongles. You could do this with a stereo integrated DAC/AMP receiver but you'd have to add in dongles to bring in the wireless stuff. The space you're working is smallish, and if you get subs that will offload a lot of energy from your mains so that leaves a lot of headroom for your mains, so an AVR will support this with lots of room to spare.


So that leaves you budgeting $400 to $800 total for sub(s) (you could get two of the speed woofers).
Budgeting $400 for the AVR (and that's being generous to get all the connectivity you want).
That leaves $800 to $1200 for the mains, which is very generous for bookshelves and even some ok towers if you choose to go that way (towers will be more efficient).


Very best,
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I agree with MalVeauX, just get an AVR for what you're trying to do with it. This being the 2 channel forum people tend to steer you towards audio-only gear even if it might not be the best solution for your needs. That said there's both a Denon X1600H and a Yamaha A780 under $500 on AC4L right now which would probably work really well. I also agree that the RSL Speedwoofer 10S is probably the best value in subs for what it seems like you're looking for. For speakers there's some good cheap towers out there like the Jamo C 97 II [which are currently on clearance crazy cheap], Chane A5.5, etc. You should be able to get something pretty good under a grand. Bookshelves would work too as long as you budget for stands but it seems like you want to maximize overall output.

If you shoot for $400-500 receiver, $400-500 subwoofer, up to a grand for speakers and $50-100 for the inevitable monoprice cable/connector order there's your system. If you spend less than that that's good too, leaving room for another sub or just future expansion in general is not a bad idea.


I'd suggest the Flying Rhino records "First Flight" compilation for setup and calibration
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Im into PsyTrance for the last 20+ years and trust me, powerful (sub)woofer is A MUST. No, it doesnt have to go super low, but 8 inches tower woofers wont be able to keep up at high(er) volume. By the time woofers reach their max, tweeters will be at 35% . I need sub to take that heAll 3 amp costs about the same. 1 is slittle less power but with option for centavy load and move some air , club-like effect (as much as budget allows). So even if i get towers, i would still need big sub.I mean if i have a budget i would go straight to SB-16, trust me.


Ok, so here is another question. Will 1 PB2000 hit harder and deeper then pair of RP-8000F towers
You asked!

As you very well understand, low frequencies and SPL have a relationship--the more air you move the more you get! For all practical purposes, speakers are air pumps and if they are direct radiators (horns/bandpass get more complex) it is bore X stroke just like in car engines. They even use the same terms like piston, motor strength and all that jazz.

So, you want to know what a subwoofer does? Read the test results--you have such sites like Voice Coil that test drivers, they tend to be professional drivers for the pro sound crowd but very educational. For subwoofers, you can amble over to data-bass.com as the king of EDM/Trance actually tests such things with his 20 KW stadium amplifier, $2,000 microphone and does it out in an open field to prevent room acoustic issues--no room--no problem! He has a handy chart/graph area to compare subwoofers to each other and not only are they consumer subs, he tests pro sound subs, automotive subwoofer drivers and DIY quad driver, horn loaded monsters to blow the glass out of your house. Be aware there are a ton of test results, pages of them so he does provide education of what the test does, what it does not do and the hows and whys they are measured that way.

To start you off--here is a good introduction, it has to do with the myths concerning subwoofers.

https://data-bass.com/#/articles/5cb...d0ec?_k=ts4k4t

This is the listing of the mythology

Higher Xmax Rating = More SPL Capability
All Xmax ratings are created equal
More Power = More SPL
Big Subs need Bigger Amps
Sensitivity is Efficiency
Sensitivity / Efficiency do not matter for Subs
Myth: Inductance does not matter for Subs
Myth: Bass Speed Subwoofers are Fast / Slow
Smaller woofers sound faster than larger woofers
Impulse Response Indicates Subwoofer Speed or Tightness

Myth: Cone Material Affects the "Timbre" of Subwoofers

I figure since you have an absolute need for subwoofers and are not made out of money--education helps prevent throwing money at the problem or worse... wasting money on things that don't matter and not putting the budget where it does. Think about it, read through this thread and you'll find some of that bass mythology repeated--such is audio though. There is a method to the madness so data-bass can hook you up!

I find it entertaining when people define what EDM is when they don't listen to it. Why would the guy that does data-bass test, design and build insane subwoofers? From what I understand, he has a warehouse that is empty on the weekends and he likes EDM/raves/house or whatever you want to call it. This would explain WHY he has a stadium amp laying around and builds bandpass/horn type subwoofers with four Rockford Fosgate 19 inch mega subs--the warehouse is made out of concrete so don't fall too far down the rabbit hole with this information. If you glance at the testing charts and see ZOD Audio--that is him and one of his warehouse party subs.... best to use the ZODs in cement structures.

Enjoy the read, it should clarify the maze for you and good to know now and in the future. Takes a lot of the guesswork out of it and will guide you to a design that will fit your needs. Watch out for that rabbit hole, try to stay realistic when browsing data-bass... once you start pondering running 220V to your living room for the stadium amps--might want to take a step back and think about it.
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post #23 of 38 Old 06-08-2020, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX View Post
.... Based on that, with your budget, I think you should look at Speedwoofers:


https://rslspeakers.com/speedwoofer10s/
The Company that makes SpeedWoofers is called RSL, they have a very high reputation in the Direct Marketing Field. Certainly worth considering.

Though do note that the actual rated frequency response is [email protected], which is still pretty good. I suspect the 20hz rating is either -6db (most likely) or -10db.

https://rslspeakers.com/products/rsl-speedwoofer-10s/

The SpeedWoofers are 10" but in the Original Posters room with your short listening distance, that is probably preferred. Though ultimately that is the OP's choice to make.

And the cost is $399, 30 Day Free Trial, no Restocking Fees, Free Shipping

It always pays to shop around.

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post #24 of 38 Old 06-08-2020, 10:48 AM
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...That said there's both a Denon X1600H and a Yamaha A780 under $500 on AC4L right now which would probably work really well.
Opinions are like noses, everybody gets one. We make the suggestions, the Original Poster makes the Decisions. That's just the way it is.

In MY OPINION, he needs to put a bit more into the Amp/Receiver. A $500 AVR is pretty much a common generic middle of the road AVR. I would hope for more, but on the other hand, it is probably the most common consumer Receiver. So, not an unworkable choice.

Given the absolute RAVE reviews, indeed the RSL SpeedWoofer at $400 is a good consideration. Probably the highest value choice presented so far.


Quote:
For speakers there's some good cheap towers out there like the Jamo C 97 II [which are currently on clearance crazy cheap], Chane A5.5, etc. ...
Since the subject of RSL has come up, it is worth checking into Direct Sellers, they typically make fantastic speakers at very reasonable prices. Direct Seller means they don't sell in retail stores, rather they are Internet Direct. Meaning for a fixed price, you get more speaker for your money since there is no middle man.

I will leave it to others with more Internet Direct knowledge and experience to make those recommendations.

Quote:
If you shoot for $400-500 receiver, $400-500 subwoofer, up to a grand for speakers and $50-100 for the inevitable monoprice cable/connector order there's your system. If you spend less than that that's good too, leaving room for another sub or just future expansion in general is not a bad idea. ...
While that is certainly a workable option, I would be more inclined to recommend a $700 to $800 AVR or Stereo Amp, and the balance (plus a bit more if possible) for the Speakers.

The Original Poster could start with a Single Sub, and later if he feels he needs more, he could add an identical seconds Sub.

That leaves us to work out the Front Speakers. Let's set a theoretical budget of $1200 to $1500 for speakers.

SVS Sound Prime Towers are $1000/pr. There Center is a bit expensive, but something of an ideal 3-way design, so that brings the Total to $1350, but then we add another $400 for the Subwoofer. For a total of $1750. That's a bit over the top, but it doesn't all have to happen at once. The Center could be added later.

However, if the OP moves to Bookshelf Front, then everything can easily happen within budget. The SVS Bookshelf are (I think) $500/pr, plus $350 for the Center, plus $400 for the Sub. Total = $1250 which is right on budget.

Now I use SVS simply because they are an easy reference point. The same could be done with many other brands of speakers. So, all Speakers = $1250, Amp = $750 for a Total of $2000, absolutely right on the budget.

The same with Floorstanding SVS come to a considerable $1750 plus a $750 AVR/Stereo, and the grand total comes to $2500. So now the question is, can the OP come up with $2500?

Again, I use the SVS to simply illustrate the point. The exact speakers, are still a matter of discussion.

But in a 13ft to 14ft room, I really find it hard to believe that the OP will have more than a 10ft Listening Distance. And remember, even with a Subwoofer, Floorstanding speakers need a bit of space around them. Bookshelf tend to need less space. So, I'm not sure giant Front speakers are in order nor in budget. As I previously said, I think 2x6.5" is about the biggest he can go. And 2x5.25" might also be workable floorstanding. Though he would still need Sub(s).

But this is the dilemma we all go through, this is the dance we all dance. Tweaking a bit here and there, decreasing this item, increasing that item, considering alternatives, ...and on ...and on ...the dance goes. At some point a person has to make a decision. But there is no harm in working through all the possibilities.

QIREX says Less Amp, More Speakers. I say More Amp, Less Speakers. We are both right. But what we need to determine is - what is right for the Original Poster. Though I suspect we are narrowing in on it.

If the OP looks hear, he can find a long list (several lists) of Internet Direct Companies -

https://www.google.com/search?source...4dUDCAg&uact=5

Here is a direct link to Audioholics Forum for a list of ID Sellers -

https://www.audioholics.com/how-to-s...ect-comparison

Here is a link to a discussion in this (AVSForum) forum on Internet Direct Sellers -

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...r-company.html

That should get the search started.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; 06-08-2020 at 12:09 PM.
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post #25 of 38 Old 06-08-2020, 03:03 PM
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I don't agree a center channel is particularly relevant in this case and I definitely think someone buying their first "real" system shouldn't bust their budget by 25%. If the OP is using a sub the room effect from tower speakers won't be as relevant so they won't need to be 3 feet out from the wall to sound good. Bookshelves are good too but it sounds like they're prioritizing max output and towers are more efficient which then makes amp selection easier. The ones I suggested are $700 receivers, they're just cheaper because they're refurbished.

My personal system is small fairly inefficient bookshelves with a decently beefy amp and a sealed sub mostly listened to at low to medium volumes and I'm super happy with it but it doesn't seem like what LS460 was looking for.
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pick up a couple used Yamaha DXR10's and then go for as many subwoofers as you can afford, maybe those Behringer beasts
I have a DXR10 and the fidelity is maybe better than my powered monitor speakers
there is a just some background hiss when no music plays
now, I have read that people like the RCF equivalents even better but they are more expensive
I use a DXR10 for a FRFR guitar and bass rig and it will crush heads
also, some guys are using the MonoPrice 15" powered monitors for Home Theatre and 2 Channel
if use a DriveRack to EQ them I bet they are OK
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Keep in mind you absolutely can not push the speaker back against the wall, that will destroy the sound quality. In my experience, Floorstanding need 12" to 16" behind the speaker. But... bookshelf need around 8" to perhaps 12" to sound good. So, in that small space, placement is also a consideration.
See, thats another thing that i read about and why i decided to go with a bookshelf instead of towers. I CANT put speakers more then 10" away from the wall.

I'll see if i can snap a pic of the room so you guys can have an idea what im dealing with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qirex View Post
For speakers there's some good cheap towers out there like the Jamo C 97 II [which are currently on clearance crazy cheap]
I just checked and this seems very nice. Apparently, Jamo is owned by Klipsch and Klipsch is using it to approach more to European market. I found only one review and is very positive.And OMG do they look nice in white.It would fit amazingly in room design since everything is white - gloss white long shelf, white tile, white sectional, white walls, white dinning chairs, white kitchen lol...my wife is already in love with this speakers. Price is def affordable...but as i mentioned above, i'll have that not-enough-space-behind-a-speakers problem.8-10" MAX. With floorstandings maybe even less Will this Jamo floorstanding speakers sound decent placed right up to the wall?

I checked bookshelf version (which looks like floorstanding version cut in half) but i noticed something odd regarding the weight of the speakers. Jamo C93 are only 6lbs. Klipsch, SVS, ELAC...are all 16lbs , almost 3 times the weight. Reviews are good, but weight matters... No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qirex View Post
I'd suggest the Flying Rhino records "First Flight" compilation for setup and calibration
Big thanks. Im old school Goa Trance lover. Lot of good PsyTrance guys are going to back to old school lately (Ovnimoon, E-Mantra, Hotep, Celestial Intelligence...)





I see that a lot of you guy mentioned RSL Speedwoofer. Comparing it to PB/SB1000 , it does make sense. But comparing to PB2000 ($650-700), i would go withy SVS. Same W/$ ratio, but with SVS i get 12inch and reputable company, 5y warranty and trade in option within a year. The new PB2000 PRO series go for 800-900 bucks, yes, but previous model they have in their outlet store for 650-700.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
But in a 13ft to 14ft room, I really find it hard to believe that the OP will have more than a 10ft Listening Distance.
As i mentioned before, seating positions are 7-8ft from the TV/speakers. However, music will be playing while we are around the house.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
QIREX says Less Amp, More Speakers. I say More Amp, Less Speakers. We are both right. But what we need to determine is - what is right for the Original Poster. Though I suspect we are narrowing in on it.

Im trying to keep it in balance. I dont see much sense over spending for amp if you get ****ty speakers and vice versa.I can get Sony 2 channel receiver for $100 with no features at all, and spend 1800 on a pair of amazing speakers. But i dont know would that be a good idea.
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post #28 of 38 Old 06-09-2020, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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As of right now, i think i will go with YAmaha receiver, either A780 or V685. They seem to be identical and they have everything i need. I think im pretty settled on PB2000 as well.


As for speakers...im thinking ELAC unifi UB5 or SVS prime. Klipsch 600m are not on sale anymoree.


Im very interested in this JAMO floorstandings....but if i have to keep them few feet away from the wall, its not gonna work
Maybe their bookshelf version (C93) ....if i can get find reviews. I'll dig around.




Thank you all.
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post #29 of 38 Old 06-10-2020, 06:43 AM
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I'd look at the Denon DRA 800H 2 channel receiver. It has 5 HDMI inputs, 2 analog inputs, a MM Phono, and 2 sub outs. Price $499. Also 100 wpc.
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post #30 of 38 Old 06-10-2020, 11:06 AM
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The ELAC Unifis are known for being power hungry, that might not be as relevant with a sub, though.
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